Ethical milk

[Julian]

Fair enough, the beef thing seems to be an urban myth imported from the US.  Discovering the chips are vegetarian is unlikely to make me want to eat them though.

[ScumOfTheRoad]

lol, I'm no expert on McD's - not been into one save to use the loo for well over ten years.

You do know what a McPoo with Lies is don't you?

(yes, I know the common paralnce is not a poo)

[iakobski]

we cannot guarantee that the oil used to fry the pies in has not become mixed with oil that has been used to cook chicken products during the oil filtration process in the restaurants. There are two different methods for filtering frying oils employed across McDonald's restaurants: the first utilises self-filtering vats fitted in its kitchens and the oil from each frying station is filtered into a separate container. So French Fry oil goes into one container, with Veggie Patty, Filet-o-Fish, chicken menu items and Apple Pies into another.

So they fry their apple pies in the same oil as they fry their fish?  Excuse me whilst I just go and Ralph up in the corner... 

Not quite. The oil passes through the same fiilter machine, with the fish fryer oil going through the machine after the apple pie oil. There's still a possibility of cross contamination, of course.

Personally, I wouldn't eat a deep-fried apple pie whatever its origin, but I know plenty of veggies who happily eat chips from the chip shop which are not just fried in oil which may have touched the fish frying oil, they are fried in the exact same oil at the same time.

[border-rider]

In the quote Charlotte put up they say none of their products is certified vegetarian. There's a world of difference

There likely isn't, in practice.  Or they likely would be.

[border-rider]

I know plenty of veggies who happily eat chips from the chip shop which are not just fried in oil which may have touched the fish frying oil, they are fried in the exact same oil at the same time.

I know people who call themselves veggie, but eat fish.  And chicken

[iakobski]

lol, I'm no expert on McD's - not been into one save to use the loo for well over ten years.

It certainly used to be the case that the chips were pre-cooked in beef fat and the apple pies contained some sort of lard.  These days their adverts claim free range eggs and happy smiling children playing innocently among corn fields, so maybe this is no longer the case.  However, as they actually say on their website that none of their products are vegetarian, I'm lovin' scepticism.

They don't. In the quote Charlotte put up they say none of their products is certified vegetarian. There's a world of difference, and that's what I picked up. I'm not an apologist for fast food.

I've just googled, and it looks like Charlotte's quote came from a USAnian website. Where the products are definitely not vegetarian. And they've been successfully sued for $$millions for claiming they were 

[Karla]

I know plenty of veggies who happily eat chips from the chip shop which are not just fried in oil which may have touched the fish frying oil, they are fried in the exact same oil at the same time.

I know people who call themselves veggie, but eat fish.  And chicken

Aha, you're talking about fish'n'chipocrites.

[border-rider]

 

That's ace.

[teethgrinder]

My ethical problems are with the way animals are industrially farmed, not with the concept of killing and eating them.  So I would say

lamb / beef
cheese / milk
pork
tinned tuna / tinned mackerel
cod from chippy
chicken

I currently have a greater ethical issue over mass-produced milk and cheese than over (for example) local, well-raised meat, because the cows milked for dairy products are not happy cows. 

That makes me a pretty unethical eater then
 
 
I munch a fair bit of chicken and hardly any beef, even less lamb All the nasty stuff (ethically speaking) from a supermarket. Pork is my next favourite. I have cod and chips from the chippy every Friday and also get through several tins of fish per week.
I was getting at the quality of life for the slaughtered or milked animal. If I was going for minimal killings, beef would win hands down. One dead bull or cow makes a hell of a lot of beef. A chicken is merely a snack by comparison.
I also glug lots of milk and eat about half a kilo of cheese a week. At least whey protien seems to be more ethical than my main sources of animal made protien, so maybe I should have more of that.

I had a soy-milk latte with hazelnut syrup (masks the slightly floury taste of the soy milk) today, and it was quite nice.  It's difficult to utter the words "small soy latte with hazelnut shot" without sounding like a pretentious wanker though. 

AH! The thing to do here, is to ask for a LARGE soy latte with hazlenut shot. Emphasize the, "large," and show a hearty smile when you give your order. It's not pretentious to have a large coffee, it's indulgent.
HTH

[teethgrinder]

Neither are 'happy', they don't have emotions, they're animals.

I find it very hard to believe that mamals* at least, do not feel emotion.
It doesn't make sense to me.




 *Not sure about reptiles but I expect that they do.

[teethgrinder]

Consider this; rabbit, wood pigeon and squirrels live wild and in abundance in our countryside.  They are all pest species and all can be freely killed under general licence.  They have been born and have lived entirely wild and will all die anyway, most in ways involving much more suffering than a bullet to the head.

Although I can't deny that I really don't like the idea of eating this sort of food (meat just doesn't appeal to me like, say, cheese does) when it comes to wild food, I now have a growing ethical dilemma on my hands.

Whether it's a rabbit or whether it's a deer, it's much the same issue, I think. Why should I not kill them and eat them?

You don't have to. Cycle along any road, especially at daybreak, and you'll find some freshly slaughtered meat in the form of roadkill.
I'm very seriously thinking of embarking on that habbit myself. Much more ethical than my hen from Tesco. Much cheaper and probably much tastier too. Hunting them seems like too much hassle. I'd need a gun and permission from a landowner to go killing rabbits and I'm not sure I'm a good enough shot to get 100% clean kill rate. Most likely not.
Plenty of pheasants around this time of year too. Might not be so viable or at least, convenient for a Londoner though?

[Sergeant Pluck]

Might not be so viable or at least, convenient for a Londoner though?

Not unless you like to eat flat cats.

[teethgrinder]

This, "Ethics of wild meat verses the thics of manufactured meat," is a curiosity. Do wild animals have a better quality of life than a "Happy," animal? These farmed animals are looked after to a degree. A dead animal is money lost. They will be protected from preditors and disease by the farmer. The farmer will feed them and they they should never go hungry. is this so for wild animals?
Can this question even be answered? Surely happiness is more psychological than a result of the situation, at least to some degree. We can't even work it out with our own species, let alone other animals. Hell, if I knew how to generate happiness, I'd be a very rich (and happy) man!

[Ian H]

This, "Ethics of wild meat verses the thics of manufactured meat," is a curiosity. Do wild animals have a better quality of life than a "Happy," animal? These farmed animals are looked after to a degree. A dead animal is money lost. They will be protected from preditors and disease by the farmer. The farmer will feed them and they they should never go hungry. is this so for wild animals?
Can this question even be answered? Surely happiness is more psychological than a result of the situation, at least to some degree. We can't even work it out with our own species, let alone other animals. Hell, if I knew how to generate happiness, I'd be a very rich (and happy) man!

There's a whole other ethical question about domesticated animals that are in effect genetically engineered so that they bear little resemblance to their wild forebears. Most would be unlikely to survive in the wild, and many could be considered as grossly deformed from a health and welfare point of view.

[Exit Stage Left]

This, "Ethics of wild meat verses the thics of manufactured meat," is a curiosity. Do wild animals have a better quality of life than a "Happy," animal? These farmed animals are looked after to a degree. A dead animal is money lost. They will be protected from preditors and disease by the farmer. The farmer will feed them and they they should never go hungry. is this so for wild animals?
Can this question even be answered? Surely happiness is more psychological than a result of the situation, at least to some degree. We can't even work it out with our own species, let alone other animals. Hell, if I knew how to generate happiness, I'd be a very rich (and happy) man!

There's a whole other ethical question about domesticated animals that are in effect genetically engineered so that they bear little resemblance to their wild forebears. Most would be unlikely to survive in the wild, and many could be considered as grossly deformed from a health and welfare point of view.

That sounds a lot like the checkout queue at Netto.

[Flint catcher]

Jeepers... No time read all those posts!
 Just to say Damians post is relevant to mine.
When I was a dairy hand, males or bobby calves born on the farm were put in a shelter at the farm entrance for the bobby truck to pick up. Those born out of season we'd shoot and give to the dogs. Not much meat on a new born dairy bull calf.
You guys should do a stint on a farm being pissed on, shat on, trying to place the cups on a reluctant moo who keeps kicking them off into the shit.
Yeh, pus and blood are all part of milk and gives it character.
When the yield drops from a moo then its a non emotional goodbye as there isnt a dairy outfit who isnt up to its oxters in overdraft so cant afford to feed hangers onners. Best not to give them names really...
Still, all this talk of ethics is really a very british obsession.
The Japs have dairy factory farms were cows never leave their stalls.
I'd forget ever owning a moo. Makes planning time off difficult. Ask a farmer...

[Arch]

I'd forget ever owning a moo. Makes planning time off difficult. Ask a farmer...

You could take it with you. Plenty of suitable outings.

Cowes Week, perhaps.

<thinks really hard for more>....

[robbo6]

Oxen Park, Cumbria.

[Exit Stage Left]

'The forgotten village': Families snowed in for three weeks as council gritters leave hamlet stranded
 | Mail Online

[itsbruce]

Because they're sentient? Using sentient beings as foodstuffs is not something that sits easily with me, at least.

Your distinction between sentient and non-sentient life is a bit arbitrary, no?  There are those who would consider it disingenuous.

And then there's Bob.

[ludwig]

I am surprised that throughout this discusion about the ethics of eating meat noone has mentioned the fact that feeding vegetable matter to animals is an incredibly ineficient way of producing food and reduces the area of land available for growing crops that people can eat directly without it being turned into meat. This in turn raises the price of those crops and the poorest people go without. I am very much with charlotte on this. I dont think that the suffering of each individual animal at the point of its death is the important issue. More important is the degree of suffering that it endured throughout its life and the wider impact of it's production in terms of the environment. How ethical is it to buy newzealand apples or egyptian new potatoes?

[L CC]

Except that ruminants are able to digest waste products that would otherwise be, well, waste, and live on land that can't be farmed for other crops. The animal feed argument is much more relevant to pig and poultry farming, where they eat a relatively high quality diet.
Dairy cows in this country, and most of europe, eat grass, silage, brewers grains, beet pulp, citrus waste (what's left after making juice) and all kinds of dodgy by-products.

[Exit Stage Left]

Except that ruminants are able to digest waste products that would otherwise be, well, waste, and live on land that can't be farmed for other crops. The animal feed argument is much more relevant to pig and poultry farming, where they eat a relatively high quality diet.
Dairy cows in this country, and most of europe, eat grass, silage, brewers grains, beet pulp, citrus waste (what's left after making juice) and all kinds of dodgy by-products.

Don't forget the by-products of the bio-fuel that constitutes 5% of of petrol, diesel and heating oils.
Biofuels | Information | Farmers Guardian

[ludwig]

I wasn't forgetting bio fuels which are a whole other can of worms.

[Exit Stage Left]

I wasn't forgetting bio fuels which are a whole other can of worms.

I think you're probably thinking of compost. Which can produce bio-fuel from household waste.
SCT Composting &raquo; Global Renewables