Author Topic: Ministers to consult on doubling legal wattage of electric bike motors  (Read 4439 times)

Re: Ministers to consult on doubling legal wattage of electric bike motors
« Reply #25 on: 29 February, 2024, 05:01:53 pm »
I'm assuming this is largely making the law reflect current reality. Certainly, in Brighton there's a lot of delivery bikes that require zero pedal effort.

I can well imagine that both delivery companies and the police would like the status quo legalised.

Sustained keeping up with the cars in an urban 20mph makes some sense. Except, if the most visible users are competing with taxis for considerate road user awards* and are also making money, then there'll be another round of calls for tax, licences, and registration.


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Re: Ministers to consult on doubling legal wattage of electric bike motors
« Reply #26 on: 29 February, 2024, 06:23:16 pm »
Exactly my point - 25kph is rubbish in all circumstances. It's too fast to share with pedestrians, and too slow to share with cars (or to get places).
It's the right speed to share with most other people on bikes, wasn't that the point?

FifeingEejit

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Re: Ministers to consult on doubling legal wattage of electric bike motors
« Reply #27 on: 29 February, 2024, 07:40:51 pm »
had a quick look, a moped/scooter is limited to 48kmh
if you derestrict it you have to preregister as a motorbike

considering also you are speed limited on a motorbike until you've passed your test,

It's all about theoretical skill levels isn't it.

anyone can hop on an assisted bicycle with no training, someone fit enough to ride faster than 25kmh has probably enough practice and experience to be able to control the bike at those speeds.


of course every single one of those levels of hike has a  derestriction black market going on.

My as well just let everyone ride 1000cc super bikes.

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Re: Ministers to consult on doubling legal wattage of electric bike motors
« Reply #28 on: 29 February, 2024, 08:43:09 pm »
^ along my line of thinking.  Should we worry about people being able to.do.what they already can do on a motorscooter?
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Kim

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Re: Ministers to consult on doubling legal wattage of electric bike motors
« Reply #29 on: 29 February, 2024, 09:02:58 pm »
Similarly, I don't care about power rating.  500W is within the acceleration capabilities of a fit cyclist,

For a few seconds at most for the majority.  Possibly a minute or two if you race. Certainly not for sustained periods.

Yeah, but it doesn't take long to reach 15mph at 500W on the flat, at which point the speed limiting takes over.  It's equivalent to a fit rider giving it maximum beans to clear a junction ahead of the cars, or get started on a bastard hill, before settling to cruising speed.

Re: Ministers to consult on doubling legal wattage of electric bike motors
« Reply #30 on: 29 February, 2024, 09:38:01 pm »
Exactly my point - 25kph is rubbish in all circumstances. It's too fast to share with pedestrians, and too slow to share with cars (or to get places).
It's the right speed to share with most other people on bikes, wasn't that the point?

Exactly.

Ebikes are bicycles with electric assist. People are more than welcome to get a motorbike if they want to go at 20+mph. 

Electric vehicles with a throttle are motor vehicles, and throttle controlled electric bicycles don't belong in cycles paths.

It's not surprising this is proposed by delivery riders, their entire industry is illegal: illegal bikes, ignoring every road and traffic regulation, illegal riders, illegal self employment.



Re: Ministers to consult on doubling legal wattage of electric bike motors
« Reply #31 on: 01 March, 2024, 08:19:01 am »
Exactly my point - 25kph is rubbish in all circumstances. It's too fast to share with pedestrians, and too slow to share with cars (or to get places).
It's the right speed to share with most other people on bikes, wasn't that the point?
That's the first answer to why 25kph that makes sense - it's for them to work properly alongside bikes on dedicated bike infrastructure.  :thumbsup: Awesome, for the Netherlands.
If we're changing the rules for the UK, can we change them to match UK infrastructure, which is almost entirely roads or shared (with pedestrians) paths? Making them more powerful, with the same legal 25kph limit is just going to encourage derestricting that limit.

FifeingEejit

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Re: Ministers to consult on doubling legal wattage of electric bike motors
« Reply #32 on: 01 March, 2024, 03:31:03 pm »
Brommers are allowed on some fietspaden
which is interesting

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Re: Ministers to consult on doubling legal wattage of electric bike motors
« Reply #33 on: 01 March, 2024, 03:34:38 pm »
As a cargo bike user, and a maintainer of two cargo bikes (I have a Kona e-ute and Mary has a Raleigh Stride 2 box bike, both equipped with kiddy seats).

We'd like more power, don't need more speed but until you've tried to get a 60 kilo cargo bike (before we get on) with child and shopping up a bastard hill like the ones around here without being run over i'm not sure you really understand the difference it would make.
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Re: Ministers to consult on doubling legal wattage of electric bike motors
« Reply #34 on: 01 March, 2024, 07:00:56 pm »
Brommers are allowed on some fietspaden
which is interesting

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Well, there is a special class of "brommers" that are restricted to 30 km/h (if I remember correctly) and they can use "fietspaden" (but Amsterdam has local laws to prevent this, Groningen where I live also does this on certain bike paths). All other mopeds should use the road unless the bike path is designated as a bike/moped path. Typically, this is along provincial roads (where cars can go 80+ km/h and don't expect to share the road with slow traffic).

Adam

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Re: Ministers to consult on doubling legal wattage of electric bike motors
« Reply #35 on: 01 March, 2024, 08:29:19 pm »
I'm not convinced that this bit in the article is correct:

Quote
For example, some cyclists with disabilities find it easier to use e-bikes but are unable to pedal unassisted to the 4mph speed at which, under current laws, the electric motor starts up.

As I understand it the 4mph limit is the speed up to which the walk assist function can operate where pedalling is not necessary.  Above 4mph you need to pedal to get electric assistance.

Not 100% correct.  Under the existing legislation, e-bikes built before 1/1/2016 could have throttle only operation. 

In addition, it's also possible for a bike manufacturer to apply for type approval as an L1e low powered moped, meaning you can then have throttle only operation.  There are a couple of UK brands who have done this, Wisper Bikes being one of them: https://wisperbikes.com/full-throttle-option/#:~:text=How%20It%20Works,(250Watt%20Low%20Powered)%20Moped.
“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving.” -Albert Einstein

Re: Ministers to consult on doubling legal wattage of electric bike motors
« Reply #36 on: 01 March, 2024, 10:09:11 pm »
I find 25kph limit to be perfectly fine for our riding (we have an e-assist tandem) and I am against any moves to make high powered ebike more commonplace because pretty much all the ones I see used in cities are already too fast for crowded paths. Big and heavy bikes doing 25mph without pedalling have no place on cycling or shared use paths.

As folks have said, although 500W maybe just making the status quo legal, but it another high watermark from which to start from in de-regulating. (There are plenty of videos out there showing how to get your bike to go above 50mph by spending a little cash on amazon. ) 
I'm with Hubner on this.

Re: Ministers to consult on doubling legal wattage of electric bike motors
« Reply #37 on: 01 March, 2024, 10:21:41 pm »
It's not surprising this is proposed by delivery riders, their entire industry is illegal: illegal bikes, ignoring every road and traffic regulation, illegal riders, illegal self employment.
Has it?  You mean the gig economy deliveroo riders and the like (Of which I'm one)?  I don't think so, the providers don't care what bike you ride, most of the riders don't care what the regulations are and this proposal would have zero effect on this type of delivery.

Re: Ministers to consult on doubling legal wattage of electric bike motors
« Reply #38 on: 02 March, 2024, 10:05:18 am »
For the between-villages commute, the speed pedelec seems like a good solution. 28mph, so not overly holding up traffic, power to carry loads etc. There may need to be some tweaks for disability use; I haven't looked closely at things like walk assist, throttle etc.

I've looked at them a few times, but really can't make them work for me as the law stands. I do about a ten mile commute, sometimes on a bicycle, sometimes on a motorbike, sometimes in a car. The car or motorbike are load carrying, bad weather or where I want to spend 20 minutes commuting rather than an hour (with changing and faffage at each end that's probably what it takes on a bicycle, about 35 minutes actually on the road). A standard e-bike wouldn't offer me much more than a bicycle, no increase in pace or luggage ability, less exercise. The motorbike gets me there quickly regardless of traffic, but without any exercise.

A speed pedelec would get me there faster than a bicycle, with the ability to haul more load, and get some exercise. Seems pretty perfect. Except that you need to register it as a moped, and wear a proper motorbike helmet, and find somewhere to mount a number plate (which is standard size, so going to get in the way and catch on things), and have a license, insurance and mot. At which point, you might as well save some cash and just get an electric motorbike, which is faster and easier to get road legal in the UK.

I'd like to see speed pedelecs be road legal, to be used like a bicycle (not a motorbike), but perhaps with more restrictions - only allowed on roads, not shared use paths, perhaps an older minimum age (17, like a moped?).

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Ministers to consult on doubling legal wattage of electric bike motors
« Reply #39 on: 02 March, 2024, 03:29:56 pm »
It's not surprising this is proposed by delivery riders, their entire industry is illegal: illegal bikes, ignoring every road and traffic regulation, illegal riders, illegal self employment.
Has it?  You mean the gig economy deliveroo riders and the like (Of which I'm one)?  I don't think so, the providers don't care what bike you ride, most of the riders don't care what the regulations are and this proposal would have zero effect on this type of delivery.
I read somewhere (might have been on road.cc) that this proposal is in response to requests from the delivery cos that supply bikes (or often trikes), like Zedify, as opposed to Deliveroo and such. May not be accurate of course.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Ministers to consult on doubling legal wattage of electric bike motors
« Reply #40 on: 02 March, 2024, 04:09:09 pm »
Higher power e bikes will be less dangerous that the equivalent motorscooter or dirt bike as they will be significantly lighter.
simplicity, truth, equality, peace

Kim

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Re: Ministers to consult on doubling legal wattage of electric bike motors
« Reply #41 on: 02 March, 2024, 04:13:52 pm »
Wheels for Wellbeing have a position statement: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_O1BRlGNBSsmIFcvSuyEaSZ2kesR69wk/view

Interesting that this refers only to the power limit, no mention of hand throttles.


Re: Ministers to consult on doubling legal wattage of electric bike motors
« Reply #43 on: 03 March, 2024, 06:33:31 pm »
And the consultation itself: https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/smarter-regulation-proposed-changes-to-legislation-for-electrically-assisted-pedal-cycles
Thankyou Kim.  Veery eenteresting.
key phrase...
"The overriding rationale is to make EAPCs a more attractive and viable travel option for more people"

I get the feeling that "active travel" is being used as a trojan horse to benefit the likes of Ocado et al to distribute heavier loads.  I'm not quite sure though how sitting at home on a keyboard and ordering stuff to be delivered by paid pedalling operatives counts as "active travel".  However the discussion there is well-balanced.

"Stakeholder" count - 5
"active travel" count  - 9



Re: Ministers to consult on doubling legal wattage of electric bike motors
« Reply #44 on: 03 March, 2024, 07:12:40 pm »
But even if it is for home delivery, is that necessarily a problem? More use of pedal powered delivery would seem better than more transit vans.

Re: Ministers to consult on doubling legal wattage of electric bike motors
« Reply #45 on: 03 March, 2024, 07:18:41 pm »
I read somewhere (might have been on road.cc) that this proposal is in response to requests from the delivery cos that supply bikes (or often trikes), like Zedify, as opposed to Deliveroo and such. May not be accurate of course.
That would make more sense, that isn't the industry that hubner describes.

Kim

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Re: Ministers to consult on doubling legal wattage of electric bike motors
« Reply #46 on: 03 March, 2024, 08:27:05 pm »
Can't help wondering if 500W for 3 or more wheels would be a reasonable compromise.  The oikery tend not to ride VTXen or Windcheetahs.

Adam

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Re: Ministers to consult on doubling legal wattage of electric bike motors
« Reply #47 on: 03 March, 2024, 09:39:31 pm »
It's a daft proposal - as it will make shared use paths even more dangerous.

Far better, as stated by others, to simply have a higher limit only for proper cargo bikes.
“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving.” -Albert Einstein

Regulator

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Re: Ministers to consult on doubling legal wattage of electric bike motors
« Reply #48 on: 04 March, 2024, 11:00:41 am »
It's not surprising this is proposed by delivery riders, their entire industry is illegal: illegal bikes, ignoring every road and traffic regulation, illegal riders, illegal self employment.
Has it?  You mean the gig economy deliveroo riders and the like (Of which I'm one)?  I don't think so, the providers don't care what bike you ride, most of the riders don't care what the regulations are and this proposal would have zero effect on this type of delivery.
I read somewhere (might have been on road.cc) that this proposal is in response to requests from the delivery cos that supply bikes (or often trikes), like Zedify, as opposed to Deliveroo and such. May not be accurate of course.

It's not Zedify and the like that are leading the charge on this - it's the likes of Just Eat and Deliveroo who are supplying and using bikes which are not currently legal (using some very shady legal reasoning).

The likes of Zedify are working within the law.  They support the proposed changes because it will make their lives easier in the long run.
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I completely agree with Reg.

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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Ministers to consult on doubling legal wattage of electric bike motors
« Reply #49 on: 04 March, 2024, 12:05:51 pm »
Just Eat and Deliveroo aren't supplying any bikes round here. But if they are elsewhere, good for them.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.