Yet Another Cycling Forum

Off Topic => The Pub => The Sporting Life => Topic started by: Peter on 19 July, 2021, 05:15:35 pm

Title: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Peter on 19 July, 2021, 05:15:35 pm
Have a look at this:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/disability-sport/57887715 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/disability-sport/57887715)

Now have a look at this - and also a look at the crowd.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/handball/57890430 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/handball/57890430)

both on BBC News online today
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: citoyen on 19 July, 2021, 08:34:07 pm
The problem is fundamentally the same in both cases: telling women what to wear.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Mr Larrington on 19 July, 2021, 11:39:23 pm
(https://www.dictionary.com/e/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/headdesk.gif)
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: nikki on 20 July, 2021, 10:44:43 am

There'll be some good long-form essays somewhere on how some cultures require women to simultaneously live up to expectations of being modest and slutty.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Beardy on 20 July, 2021, 10:49:06 am
(https://www.dictionary.com/e/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/headdesk.gif)
This.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: fd3 on 20 July, 2021, 12:04:54 pm
The problem is fundamentally the same in both cases: telling women what to wear.
Though you could extend this to "telling people what to wear".  For example, the Beach handball has it's roots on the beach - hence the requirement to wear swimwear.  If teh rulez required men to wear tiny speedos would the bikini bottom requirement be more acceptable or would it still be wrong?  Then take this same ruling and apply it to swimming pools in France (where men are not allowed to wear shorts in pools and women have similar dress code enforced).
What is the point of a dress code in any walk of life?
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Kim on 20 July, 2021, 12:06:45 pm
What is the point of a dress code in any walk of life?

Quite.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 20 July, 2021, 01:23:17 pm
Dress codes can have a place, where they have a sensible point. Staying in sports, the requirement for members of each team to wear distinctive uniforms is clearly sensible as is the requirement for goalkeepers in football to wear a different shirt from the other players, but when FIFA tried to fine footballers for not having their shirts tucked into their shorts, that was counterproductive to their playing and did not contribute anything to the game. Perhaps surprisingly, football seems to have relatively sensible attitudes and regulations around clothes: some players have been known to worn long trousers rather than shorts, there seems to be free choice between short and long sleeves and as far as I can make out, women are subject to the same rules and choice as men, including some in hijab.

Some other areas of life are also sensible applications for dress codes, obvious ones being to distinguish certain professions such as police.

The problem with these two examples is that they seem to be micromanaging beyond what makes sense for the sport and that they do so in a demeaning way.

I'm not quite sure what we're meant to see in the crowd for the handball match though. I see shorts, but they're not on players, I see beer bellies on display (which might be a whole separate topic), I also see at least one player or official kneeling but I think that's to do with the game rather than taking the knee? Not that I know much about handball, so maybe it isn't. But what are we meant to see here?
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: bobb on 20 July, 2021, 01:26:08 pm
But what are we meant to see here?

The woman in yellow is wearng bikini bottoms, the woman in red is wearing sort of tight shorts (not sure what you'd call them - Hot pants doesn't seem right!)

Edit: This is of course ridiculous, but sometimes you do need some rules on dress in sport (as pointed out above). You couldn't have a boxer deciding to wear full body armour. Or a swimmer wearing some super streamlined suit (I know they do, but there are rulez). Or indeed any other examples you could think of....
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: DuncanM on 20 July, 2021, 01:27:50 pm
Football does enforce having your socks pulled up now though. ;)

The difference between the 2 links is that one of them is an official body mandating "uniform" requirements (IMO in an absurd manner), and one is an official telling a competitor their clothing is inappropriate based on personal taste.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: bobb on 20 July, 2021, 01:47:13 pm
Football does enforce having your socks pulled up now though. ;)

Jack Grealish never got the memo!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6GsOK4WQAgzBY5?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: DuncanM on 20 July, 2021, 02:03:43 pm
Football does enforce having your socks pulled up now though. ;)

Jack Grealish never got the memo!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6GsOK4WQAgzBY5?format=jpg&name=small)
That's after the game. During it, if you roll your socks down, the ref is supposed to get you to roll them up.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: bobb on 20 July, 2021, 02:16:52 pm
That's after the game. During it, if you roll your socks down, the ref is supposed to get you to roll them up.

Ok, during a game:

(https://zaribor.co.uk/raz/pics/jg.jpg)
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Beardy on 20 July, 2021, 02:24:04 pm
What is the point of a dress code in any walk of life?

Quite.
My father is a long time golfist snd he is of the opinion that not dressing properly is the route of all leftism. I won’t play golf in part because their dress code is indicative of the general attitudes I’ve met in other golfists.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: ravenbait on 20 July, 2021, 02:27:27 pm
I'm not quite sure what we're meant to see in the crowd for the handball match though. I see shorts, but they're not on players, I see beer bellies on display (which might be a whole separate topic), I also see at least one player or official kneeling but I think that's to do with the game rather than taking the knee? Not that I know much about handball, so maybe it isn't. But what are we meant to see here?

The point being, I imagine, that the audience comprises a bunch of beer-bellied white men standing up to get a better look at hot girls in bikinis getting sweaty.

This is all about keeping the numbers up for the sponsors in a sport that doesn't attract much of an audience. The fear being that people men will stop watching if the female athletes cover up anything other than the bare minimum of skin.

Here's a shot of the men's and women's teams in their official sanctioned uniforms. Spot the difference.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6mxyqBXEAYfSni?format=jpg&name=large)

Make the men wear budgie smugglers, I say. In the hellhole that is twitter, someone made that suggestion, only for a bunch of responses to fly back talking about how they didn't want to see some dude's package, that's gay.  ::-)

Sam
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Karla on 20 July, 2021, 02:34:18 pm
Next we'll be told the cyclists' socks go more than halfway up their calves  :o
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: DuncanM on 20 July, 2021, 02:39:56 pm
That's after the game. During it, if you roll your socks down, the ref is supposed to get you to roll them up.
Ok, during a game:
He's not wearing shinpads either.  I guess the 4th official wasn't bothered enforcing the laws.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 20 July, 2021, 02:46:11 pm
That's after the game. During it, if you roll your socks down, the ref is supposed to get you to roll them up.
Ok, during a game:
He's not wearing shinpads either.  I guess the 4th official wasn't bothered enforcing the laws.
But just look at those calves!

I'm not quite sure what we're meant to see in the crowd for the handball match though. I see shorts, but they're not on players, I see beer bellies on display (which might be a whole separate topic), I also see at least one player or official kneeling but I think that's to do with the game rather than taking the knee? Not that I know much about handball, so maybe it isn't. But what are we meant to see here?

The point being, I imagine, that the audience comprises a bunch of beer-bellied white men standing up to get a better look at hot girls in bikinis getting sweaty.

This is all about keeping the numbers up for the sponsors in a sport that doesn't attract much of an audience. The fear being that people men will stop watching if the female athletes cover up anything other than the bare minimum of skin.

Here's a shot of the men's and women's teams in their official sanctioned uniforms. Spot the difference.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6mxyqBXEAYfSni?format=jpg&name=large)

Make the men wear budgie smugglers, I say. In the hellhole that is twitter, someone made that suggestion, only for a bunch of responses to fly back talking about how they didn't want to see some dude's package, that's gay.  ::-)

Sam
Said to be also behind the popularity of women's football in the early 20th century, though what they wore wouldn't be considered revealing nowadays.

It's "taking the knee" I'm unclear about in this context though.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: bobb on 20 July, 2021, 03:43:37 pm
My father is a long time golfist snd he is of the opinion that not dressing properly is the route of all leftism. I won’t play golf in part because their dress code is indicative of the general attitudes I’ve met in other golfists.

Very few golf clubs have strict dress codes these days. Only really stuffy places. Although I have on occassion played at such places, I'm not really interested in playing anywhere like that now. And even they aren't that strict. Golf shoes, trousers and a collared shirt. That's hardly strict.

Most places might say no jeans, no football shirts etc, but so do plenty of bars, pubs and clubs etc. And everybdy knows the only people who go out dressed in jeans and a football shirt are twats.

Maybe your dad is just old skool. Tyrell Hatton even started wearing a hoodie at pro tournaments and the R&A were fine with it. It was only a few old men who complained - from their armchairs of course.

As this thread is really about women, it should be noted that golf allows women to dress pretty much as they please. Trousers (of any cut or length), skirt/skort (of any length) and no restriction on shirt sleeve length (or lack of) or indeed collars.

Actually, maybe rocking up in a bikini would be frowned upon....
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: citoyen on 20 July, 2021, 03:58:33 pm
Actually, maybe rocking up in a bikini would be frowned upon....

You should try it and see what happens.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: citoyen on 20 July, 2021, 04:00:44 pm
Though you could extend this to "telling people what to wear".

Classic deflection. Focus on the issue at hand.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 20 July, 2021, 06:07:15 pm

Here's a shot of the men's and women's teams in their official sanctioned uniforms. Spot the difference.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6mxyqBXEAYfSni?format=jpg&name=large)

Make the men wear budgie smugglers, I say. In the hellhole that is twitter, someone made that suggestion, only for a bunch of responses to fly back talking about how they didn't want to see some dude's package, that's gay.  ::-)

That's such a powerful photo for showing sexism in sport.

If the women are required to dress like this, then the whole sport is saying: we do not want you to play this sport if you are not thin, attractive, and non religious. What happens if a conservative christian woman wants to play? or a Muslim woman? Or simply, a fat woman. I would be incredibly self conscious of my rather abundant kummerspek being on display like this. I know it's internalised fat shaming to say that noone wants to see my 100kg of fat dyke wallowing around in the sand.

The fact that the men can wear such baggy clothing is just adding insult to injury. There are sports where the clothing you wear can actively improve your performance (cycling, skating, swimming come to mind). But I'm pretty sure that is not the case for handball.

At risk of bringing this into cycling, something that some people find off putting about cycling is the belief that you need to be wearing skin tight lycra to be able to take part. I know I've cycle past groups of teenage boys who have laughed at my ample mass bulging from the largest size shorts I could buy. There was a really interesting post from one of the rapha 100 women women yesterday about what she wears to ride. She doesn't wear rapha tights, or assos, or any of the big names, but some unnamed brand off ebay, cos they are the only company she's found that make very light summer cycling tights that she can wear. I'll let you work out which of the 100 women this was. Interestingly, while they did take the preformative act of making a colour coordinated Hijab to wear, they didn't follow through by making it available as a product for general public to purchase (or if they did, I can't find it on their website).

We talk a lot about how to encourage more women to partake in cycling and in sports in general. And you know what? it's bullshit like this that's stopping them. Girls play sports almost as much as boys do right up to about the point they become teenagers, and then it drops off dramatically. Bullshit dress code rules for many sports are part of that. Even netball requires skimpy dresses... As for Tennis whites... ARGH.

Remember, every woman responding to this thread on this forum is cycling not because of the environment the cycling community and sport has created, but in spite of it.

J

Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Beardy on 20 July, 2021, 06:25:27 pm
I don’t watch the beach volleyball (nor will I watch the hand ball it seems) because it seems far to much like sanctioned voyeurism and I just don’t feel comfortable with that. There’s no sporting need to insist on bikinis for the women* and to do so is far too 1950s. 

*indeed, the beach volleyball crowd allow Muslim women to dress modestly in line with their religious beliefs. I’m not sure if anyone can choose to do so nor if the handball federation allows it.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: ravenbait on 20 July, 2021, 06:51:37 pm

Remember, every woman responding to this any thread on this forum is cycling not because of the environment the cycling community and sport has created, but in spite of it.

I just wanted this to be louder. In case anyone missed it.

Sam
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Peter on 20 July, 2021, 06:54:40 pm
Ravenbait, Quixoticgeek and Beardy are echoing my thoughts - not that I think all other posts are wrong but they (R, Q and B) are where I am coming from.  I think Olivia Breen has a right to wear what she does but the picture she shows on the BBC news page is not the one that is presumably what gave rise to the official's comment, ill-advised though that may (or beer-belly-wise) may not have been.  Have a look at the slew of you tube videos of female athletes leaving the long-jump pit from non-descript athletic meetings to see where the beer-bellies are coming from.  Yes, I have seen some of them - but I've always kept my shirt on.

Jack Grealish's "violation" of the socks code is nowhere near as heinous as Foden's hairdressing stupidity.

I'd much rather be a Norwegian than a long-jumper.

PS sorry, Sam - what was that again?
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Peter on 20 July, 2021, 07:02:22 pm
@ cudzo

The reference to "taking the knee" was just short-hand for people standing up (or kneeling down) for what they perceive to be their "rights".  In this case, it seemed to me that they were two different things - therefore two different knees.  Sorry for the confusion.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: ravenbait on 20 July, 2021, 07:18:12 pm
Ravenbait, Quixoticgeek and Beardy are echoing my thoughts - not that I think all other posts are wrong but they (R, Q and B) are where I am coming from.  I think Olivia Breen has a right to wear what she does but the picture she shows on the BBC news page is not the one that is presumably what gave rise to the official's comment, ill-advised though that may (or beer-belly-wise) may not have been.  Have a look at the slew of you tube videos of female athletes leaving the long-jump pit from non-descript athletic meetings to see where the beer-bellies are coming from.  Yes, I have seen some of them - but I've always kept my shirt on.

I'm not entirely sure if your last comment is meant to imply the beer bellies have a point? I may be misreading it — apologies if so — but that's what I infer. The default sexualisation of bodies is a whole other annoyance for me. Like, so what if they wear skimpy outfits? They're there to perform, not to be subject to ogling. When I race, I wear skintight, fairly skimpy outfits. I know there are men who ogle triathletes because they find my race photos on flickr and favourite them (and then I see what groups they belong to and have to douse myself in brain bleach).

There is a pervasive sense of entitlement to women's bodies in particular that should be resisted, indeed fought against. This is not "nature". It's not inbuilt, hardwired to the male brain. If that were the case, tribes where lack of clothing is the norm would never be able to function for men being distracted by women's bare skin. This is cultural, it is learned, and it can be resisted.

Where the beer-bellies are coming from is decades of entitled sexualisation and objectification of women. They crawl out of an ocean of "make them slutty, but not too slutty, because real sluts are worthless" onto a muddy shoreline of lads mags and page 3 girls. The official has a bad case of internalised misogyny that has its roots in 19th century prudery.

The women who play beach sports should be able to wear what they like, whether that's a crop top and shorts or a t-shirt and baggies, or the bikini that incidentally gets the beer-bellies on their feet. The onus isn't on the athletes to wear something that will please (or not) others, but on those watching them to appreciate the athletes for their performance, not for fappability. My gods. This shouldn't even need to be said.

Men* need to stop believing they can't help but ogle. It's entirely possible to be aware of someone else having a body without it being the most important, never mind only aspect of that person that matters. No matter what it looks like.

Sam
*I will add, because I genuinely do not have the spare efforts required to argue about the moral validity of generalities, that if you do not feel this applies to you, well done, I believe you, now go and teach your l33t skillz to the men to whom it DOES apply.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Peter on 20 July, 2021, 07:31:22 pm
Yes, sam, you have misinterpreted me. I've never seen the point of a beer-belly!  The beer-bellies are not there for the athletic prowess on display - in my opinion - and neither are the videos of jumpers on you-tube.  There is no attempt at analysis of technique and so on.  It is (again in my opinion) athletics as porn in the way it is done.  Athletic men have equally beautiful bodies but they are not expected to pander to this clientele - which is why there are almost no videos of male long-jumpers in insignificant events (or clothing)!

Oh, and while I'm here, Jack Grealish's hair is pretty unacceptable as well!

Genuine question:  i'm not much of a texter - what is l33t, please?
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Mr Larrington on 20 July, 2021, 08:05:10 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet

(Edited back into English) Fear my elite search skills…
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 20 July, 2021, 08:57:16 pm
@ cudzo

The reference to "taking the knee" was just short-hand for people standing up (or kneeling down) for what they perceive to be their "rights".  In this case, it seemed to me that they were two different things - therefore two different knees.  Sorry for the confusion.
Thanks, clear.

However, I'd disagree that these are two different things. They are two different styles of dressing, but one thing – the right to dress as you prefer (reveal or cover as much skin as you choose, figure hugging or baggy or whatever) in as far as it is compatible with the sport (I think Citoyen and others have already said this, in effect).
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Mr Larrington on 20 July, 2021, 09:59:01 pm
Peter reports via PM that for some inexplicable reason his (work) laptop won't let him access the link to the Wikinaccurate link about Leet coz it thinks it's pr0n, nor will it let him reply to the thread anymore.  It's not him being standoffish.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 20 July, 2021, 11:26:04 pm
Peter reports via PM that for some inexplicable reason his (work) laptop won't let him access the link to the Wikinaccurate link about Leet coz it thinks it's pr0n, nor will it let him reply to the thread anymore.  It's not him being standoffish.

Oh I do love an overzealous work content filter. Can he access the first page of the thread?

J
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: TimC on 20 July, 2021, 11:50:44 pm
I've never understood the beach volleyball rules on female dress. I had no idea that handball had the same rules (admission: I'm not exactly sure what handball is!). I totally understand Olivia Breen's objection to the umpire complaining about her clothing; she wasn't wearing anything unusual, and if she feels that that clothing helps her perform optimally then what's the problem? However, making it compulsory to wear revealing clothing for no other reason that it improves viewing figures is patently wrong. If it's your (voluntarily taken on) job to get people to look at you in a sexual manner, ok, do what you need to do, but to play a game? I think I first became aware of beach volleyball as a sport in the Rio Olympics (other than in Top Gun). Yes, it's Brazil, and yes, their ladies seem to like to wear not a lot, but I was quite uncomfortable for the few minutes I watched as it became obvious that the kit was a kind of mandated uniform. It's not a sport I'll watch again unless they change the rules to allow some discretion in what the players wear. I'm surprised that the players themselves haven't pushed harder to change things, but perhaps it's so much part of the culture of the sport that they daren't?
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Mr Larrington on 21 July, 2021, 12:44:15 am
Peter reports via PM that for some inexplicable reason his (work) laptop won't let him access the link to the Wikinaccurate link about Leet coz it thinks it's pr0n, nor will it let him reply to the thread anymore.  It's not him being standoffish.

Oh I do love an overzealous work content filter. Can he access the first page of the thread?


Seems he can read it OK but not reply to it, since he's referred to a couple of my posts and one of Cudzo's before the Thought Police got him.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Wowbagger on 21 July, 2021, 09:25:22 am
...I know it's internalised fat shaming to say that noone wants to see my 100kg of fat dyke wallowing around in the sand.

...

Actually, I would. It sends a powerful message which says it's OK for women not to be of the standard colour-supplement-approved shape which it seems they are "meant to aspire to" and they can be free to be whoever they want to be, and are not banned from certain activities because of their body shape.

There is an all-year-round swimming group in Southend known as the Blue Tits. My swimming pal is a member. Quite a few - in fact, I think almost all - of their members are female and the vast majority of them are generously proportioned. They don't care and I think it sets a good example.

Blokes, on the other hand, don't seem to be quite so fat-shamed, although, as a warm-weather swimmer, I think I've observed that men are a minority of beach users. This could possibly be because a fair few of the adults there are taking kids with them and there's a tendency for the supervising adults to be women.

I'm off to the beach shortly and I will discreetly observe and assess the approximate make-up, gender and body-shape wise, of my fellow wallowers.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: citoyen on 21 July, 2021, 09:43:10 am
...I know it's internalised fat shaming to say that noone wants to see my 100kg of fat dyke wallowing around in the sand.

...

Actually, I would. It sends a powerful message which says it's OK for women not to be of the standard colour-supplement-approved shape which it seems they are "meant to aspire to" and they can be free to be whoever they want to be, and are not banned from certain activities because of their body shape.

+1

I just want people to be able to enjoy doing sporty things (or should I just say "being physically active" - we also need to take away the exclusive effect of that word "sporty").
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 July, 2021, 12:55:43 pm
Peter reports via PM that for some inexplicable reason his (work) laptop won't let him access the link to the Wikinaccurate link about Leet coz it thinks it's pr0n, nor will it let him reply to the thread anymore.  It's not him being standoffish.

Oh I do love an overzealous work content filter. Can he access the first page of the thread?


Seems he can read it OK but not reply to it, since he's referred to a couple of my posts and one of Cudzo's before the Thought Police got him.
Apparently I used a dirty word.
(click to show/hide)
Does anyone know who Peter works for? Maybe the Mormons?  :D
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Wowbagger on 21 July, 2021, 12:57:31 pm
I think he has been in the habit of doing educational things with musical instruments, but I have to say, without casting any nasturtiums, that I thought he was old enough to know better.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 July, 2021, 12:58:30 pm
I've never understood the beach volleyball rules on female dress. I had no idea that handball had the same rules (admission: I'm not exactly sure what handball is!).
ISTR handball was invented by the Danish national football coach in the 1930s as an exercise to get his squad to think tactically. Somehow it grew from there to become a sport in its own right. It's quite popular (to the extent that it's played in schools, for instance) in some parts of Eastern Europe as well as, presumably, Scandinavia. What I find odd though is the way that beach handball or beach volleyball is considered a separate game from handball or volleyball.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Peter on 21 July, 2021, 01:15:06 pm
I think he has been in the habit of doing educational things with musical instruments, but I have to say, without casting any nasturtiums, that I thought he was old enough to know better.

Wow, (in both senses)  I seem to have been let in again!  Not quite sure what you mean by old enough to know better.  If you mean old enough not to work, certainly (I officially retired - and not teacher's early retirement - years ago but I still teach guitar a day a week for the Local Council (whose laptop this is) because I enjoy it.  I also do it to remember who I am as my hands deteriorate!

If you mean old enough to know not to post on here about certain subjects - well, yes, obviously - but I am taking the knee for the right to be misunderstood!
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: fd3 on 21 July, 2021, 01:33:29 pm
A selection of *I must stress this* half baked thoughts.
Outside of the sporting world there are jobs that require women to wear high heels and other objectifying clothing - I don't see this as significantly different.
With either job or sport, the uniform is not a surprise after purchase addition, you know what you are getting into.
Would it be different if the beach handball association were sponsored by the makers of small swimsuits? - players must wear sponsor's kit or you don't get paid.
Where do they get their money from?  Who chooses to watch the women's sport instead of the men's?  If you exclude the voyeurs are you left with enough paying customers to fund the players and allow them to make a living from the sport?  If not, do you accept to continue as amateurs or do you chase the money from the voyeurs, or is there a third option (should the equivalent men's sport subsidise you, or should the taxpayer - if so, why)?
This was in the news RE the 11-woman game and is really evident if you google pretty much any female cyclist.
If one team elects not to be voyeurbait, while on the face of it that would seem fine, are they not profiting from all the other players who are voyeurbait?

Now, clearly these players should have the right to wear what they want, but they don't have a right to be paid, though they should have the right to try and make a living off it - which can well mean things like swimsuit calendars of pro cyclists - if they so choose.
To make it a real choice surely we need to find some way to give them financial security - but the reason they are in this predicament is because there isn't the money for it.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Wowbagger on 21 July, 2021, 01:34:15 pm
I think he has been in the habit of doing educational things with musical instruments, but I have to say, without casting any nasturtiums, that I thought he was old enough to know better.

Wow, (in both senses)  I seem to have been let in again!  Not quite sure what you mean by old enough to know better.  If you mean old enough not to work, certainly (I officially retired - and not teacher's early retirement - years ago but I still teach guitar a day a week for the Local Council (whose laptop this is) because I enjoy it.  I also do it to remember who I am as my hands deteriorate!

If you mean old enough to know not to post on here about certain subjects - well, yes, obviously - but I am taking the knee for the right to be misunderstood!
No, Peter - your philosophy is somewhat different from mine. I'm at the stage that I don't want any more pupils and to earn money from them - I've was self-employed for over 20 years and as I wound down and did fewer and fewer hours, the annual tax return became a more significant chunk of my annual work and by far the biggest chunk of my annual stress. I don't need to earn money and commit myself to a work routine, so I've chosen not to.

I'm quite happy to share any expertise that I might have acquired along the away in an ad hoc kind of fashion: if anyone I know wants an occasional session to sort out some musical issue I might know something about then I'm happy to help, but I don't want payment or commitment. Similarly I made a comment on a piano playing forum a couple of years ago that I wanted to treat my pension as a research grant so that I could immerse myself in the vast ocean which is the keyboard music of Johann Sebastian Bach, and that received a favourable comment from a superannuated international concert pianist.

No offence intended by my comment, hence the reference to nasturtiums.

Horse-hairs for corsets, innit?
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: citoyen on 21 July, 2021, 02:28:18 pm
A selection of *I must stress this* half baked thoughts.
Outside of the sporting world there are jobs that require women to wear high heels and other objectifying clothing - I don't see this as significantly different.
With either job or sport, the uniform is not a surprise after purchase addition, you know what you are getting into...

OK, stop there. No one should have their life choices and career path defined and restricted by what inexcusable conditions they are not prepared to put up with.

To reiterate what I said at the top of the thread: stop telling women what to wear. That's all there is to it. It's not complicated.

On the matter of sponsorship, sport no longer allows tobacco advertising, and fingers crossed they're heading towards putting an end to advertising gambling as well. Sometimes the ethical position is allowed to trump financial considerations. But it's more than just virtue signalling - it's important because these things do real harm, and are therefore detrimental to society as a whole. The same goes for forcing women to dress a certain way just for the privilege of being allowed to do something they're good at.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: fd3 on 21 July, 2021, 02:59:50 pm
I agree with your "should", so how will reality move to this? 
If someone is trying to run a women's sports team, assuming that they will make a significant proportion of their income from ogling voyeurs, you can only demand they stop if you either find an alternative funding stream or accept telling the women players that they are out of a job.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: citoyen on 21 July, 2021, 03:52:18 pm
Exactly the same argument was used to justify tobacco sponsorship of sport for many years.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: fd3 on 21 July, 2021, 04:05:48 pm
If you say so, but those sports mostly had enough money to do without.  In the case of Rugby, they gave up on tobacco sponsorship and lost their second tier to being semi-pro.  How did sports that relied on tobacco sponsorship get different revenue to make up for this?
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: citoyen on 21 July, 2021, 05:52:17 pm
In the case of Rugby, they gave up on tobacco sponsorship and lost their second tier to being semi-pro.

I can't find any evidence to support this claim. Please enlighten me. (It might help to be more specific than "Rugby" - which code? which country? which year?)

Anyway, this is straying from the point. Again.

assuming that they will make a significant proportion of their income from ogling voyeurs

Why are you making this assumption?
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: TimC on 21 July, 2021, 07:04:25 pm
A selection of *I must stress this* half baked thoughts.


I think you may be overthinking it. Handball isn't a professional sport. It's only been going about 20 years as a codified sport. I'm pretty sure it doesn't appear on any TV channel outside Olympic or European multisport events. The Wikipedia page suggests that the men's game applied to be able to wear swimsuit bottoms instead of shorts in 2002, but were refused. I suspect the reasons for that, and for the women's team fine, are that the rule-givers are a bit too pleased with their position of power, and they're probably a bunch of middle-aged white men who've never even played the game. As several sports have done in the past, it's probably time for the teams and the rulemakers to part company.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: citoyen on 21 July, 2021, 07:08:17 pm
I suspect the reasons for that, and for the women's team fine, are that the rule-givers are a bit too pleased with their position of power, and they're probably a bunch of middle-aged white men who've never even played the game. As several sports have done in the past, it's probably time for the teams and the rulemakers to part company.

Bingo!

I’d be surprised if it’s anything to do with sponsorship or what the punters have demanded.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 21 July, 2021, 07:09:13 pm
I agree with your "should", so how will reality move to this? 
If someone is trying to run a women's sports team, assuming that they will make a significant proportion of their income from ogling voyeurs, you can only demand they stop if you either find an alternative funding stream or accept telling the women players that they are out of a job.

How do the men's teams in this sport fund themselves? Cos they are certainly not dressed for ogling voyeurs? Why does the women's team rely on ogling men to be able to get funded, but the mens doesn't?

We had the tdf on the projector in the office a couple of weeks ago. It was the ITT stage, and for most of the afternoon the view was mens arses. Mens, taut, lycra clad, powerful arses. Being that I don't really do men, this did absolutely nothing for me. Had I put on the giro rosadonna, for an ITT, I would have got a similar view of women's bums. The men get paid substantially more for what they are doing, than the women, and we're told that the women should accept that the only way they can be funded is cos we oggle their arses? I'm a lesbian, I find women attractive. But you know what, when I'm watching cycling I'm watching cos I want to watch cyclists performing at their best, not trying to work out which ones I want to shag. Why can't men do the same?

And if any of you read that last sentence and want to say "not all men". Just don't - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NotAllMen

A couple of years back I watched the women's one day support act for the veulta espania, where they did a crit race in Madrid. The director really liked the German Lantern Rouge, as about 90% of the footage we got was her arse. I'd much rather that the focus had been on the awesome cycling talent in the group, and not just their bum.

One of the things I love about working from home, is I don't have to worry about what I am wearing. I never turn my camera on[1], so most days I don't even bother with clothes, or just a tshirt. I don't have to worry about what I'm wearing, is it going to be ok for this situation? does it reveal too much? does it cover up too much? is it too formal? not formal enough? Can I wear a skirt today, or am I going to have to crawl around under a desk fixing cabling? Working from home I don't have to worry about any of this. It's brilliant. The men don't have to worry about that.

Tom Scott has worn the same identical red tshirt in his films for years. Karl Stefanovic wore the same suit on TV for a year. If a woman wears the same clothes to work 2 days running people will comment.

I wish people would stop judging women and girls by what they wear. I wish we could wear what we want without having to worry someone isn't going to like it. If I get knocked off my bike on my training ride tonight, the media may ask "was she wearing a helmet?". If I get dragged into the bushes and raped, the media will ask "Was my clothing revealing and inviting?". Both are the same basic victim blaming bollocks. I should be able to walk across Dam square at any time of the day completely fucking naked, without risking that someone will rape me. I should also be able to do the same in a modest dress with a head scarf on. But the reality is, that many have a problem with one or both of those.

Let's just stop telling women what they can and cannot wear. Let's stop judging women based on what they do or do not wear. And if the women's version of a sport requires leching old men to be financially supported, and the men's version doesn't, how about the men grow some fucking balls, stand up for what is right, and help us change that.

J

[1] either that or it's been on since the beginning and everyone is too polite to tell me that it's on and enjoying that I am topless.

[2] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-30069564
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 July, 2021, 07:12:22 pm
I've never understood the beach volleyball rules on female dress. I had no idea that handball had the same rules (admission: I'm not exactly sure what handball is!).
ISTR handball was invented by the Danish national football coach in the 1930s as an exercise to get his squad to think tactically. Somehow it grew from there to become a sport in its own right. It's quite popular (to the extent that it's played in schools, for instance) in some parts of Eastern Europe as well as, presumably, Scandinavia. What I find odd though is the way that beach handball or beach volleyball is considered a separate game from handball or volleyball.
Turns out it is a bit older than that. It is Scandinavian in origin though, but Swedish not Danish.
https://olympics.com/en/sports/handball/
That's field handball and indoor handball, not the beach variety (so there are three types altogether!) and the photos on that page do show women indoor handballists in shorts and t-shirts.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 21 July, 2021, 07:16:07 pm
Quote
probably a bunch of middle-aged white men

I have to be really careful here. Cos let's face it, most of this forum fits the description of being middle aged white men. And while I'm sure most of you are lovely people who are kind, considerate, and feminist. I'm having to tread a very fine line to not tar you all with the same brush, leading to #NotAllMen.

The thing is, a lot of men get away with being sexist shit bags, because other men around them who may inwardly think "I say old chap, that's not on", yet don't have the fucking balls to call them out for it. It's cliche to say that all that's required for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing. But the reality is, some men have been acting pretty fucking shitty for too fucking long, and quite simply it's time some of the good guys took a stand about it. Call out behaviour when it's simply not on. Be a good ally. Women have been fighting for equality, and the simple right not to be treated like shit for centuries, and it's quite frankly exhausting.

J
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 21 July, 2021, 07:20:18 pm
Turns out it is a bit older than that. It is Scandinavian in origin though, but Swedish not Danish.
https://olympics.com/en/sports/handball/
That's field handball and indoor handball, not the beach variety (so there are three types altogether!) and the photos on that page do show women indoor handballists in shorts and t-shirts.

We used to play a game we called hand ball in PE in primary school back in the 80's and early nineties. Tho the rules look a bit different, and rather than aiming for a goal, we had to pass to a couple of people standing on a bench. But it's kinda blurry, being nearly 30 years ago. Me and one other student had got the hang of the game, and in the end the teacher insisted we be on different teams, as our team always won otherwise (this is the main reason I remember it, it's one of the few semi positive experience of sports in school I have).

J
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 July, 2021, 07:32:13 pm
Turns out it is a bit older than that. It is Scandinavian in origin though, but Swedish not Danish.
https://olympics.com/en/sports/handball/
That's field handball and indoor handball, not the beach variety (so there are three types altogether!) and the photos on that page do show women indoor handballists in shorts and t-shirts.

We used to play a game we called hand ball in PE in primary school back in the 80's and early nineties. Tho the rules look a bit different, and rather than aiming for a goal, we had to pass to a couple of people standing on a bench. But it's kinda blurry, being nearly 30 years ago. Me and one other student had got the hang of the game, and in the end the teacher insisted we be on different teams, as our team always won otherwise (this is the main reason I remember it, it's one of the few semi positive experience of sports in school I have).

J
Might have been a coincidentally named game? Or perhaps an adaptation for kids.

The positive experiences I remember from (secondary) school sports are breaking my arm playing baseball a couple of weeks before my O Levels, and getting stung on the sole of my foot by a bee while running barefoot.  :D
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 July, 2021, 07:35:21 pm
Call out behaviour when it's simply not on.
I'd say IMO that's what Peter has done with this thread. Not that the administrators of the sport will know anything about it of course, but every drip wears away the stone. But you might well see it otherwise?
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Mr Larrington on 21 July, 2021, 07:35:45 pm
I've never understood the beach volleyball rules on female dress. I had no idea that handball had the same rules (admission: I'm not exactly sure what handball is!).
ISTR handball was invented by the Danish national football coach in the 1930s as an exercise to get his squad to think tactically. Somehow it grew from there to become a sport in its own right. It's quite popular (to the extent that it's played in schools, for instance) in some parts of Eastern Europe as well as, presumably, Scandinavia. What I find odd though is the way that beach handball or beach volleyball is considered a separate game from handball or volleyball.
Turns out it is a bit older than that. It is Scandinavian in origin though, but Swedish not Danish.
https://olympics.com/en/sports/handball/
That's field handball and indoor handball, not the beach variety (so there are three types altogether!) and the photos on that page do show women indoor handballists in shorts and t-shirts.

And while it’s not as popular as football sur le Continong there are still professional leagues. The Frankfurt newspaper favoured by Miss von Brandenburg's old man devoted almost as many column inches to handball as it did to footie.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Peter on 21 July, 2021, 09:25:52 pm
Call out behaviour when it's simply not on.
I'd say IMO that's what Peter has done with this thread. Not that the administrators of the sport will know anything about it of course, but every drip wears away the stone. But you might well see it otherwise?


Thank you, Cudzo.  Just thought I'd get that in before I'm locked out (by work) again!


Amazing - I've just tried to see what I've missed but I'm prevented from seeing page 2.  I thought it would be Page 3 (if anyone goes back far enough)!
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: citoyen on 21 July, 2021, 10:17:30 pm
It’s political correctness gone mad.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Mr Larrington on 22 July, 2021, 12:58:07 am
(Wonders what Peter’s Babbage-Engine will do if I edit my post with the Wikinaccurate link to turn it back into Ing. As She Is Spoke)
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Peter on 22 July, 2021, 02:37:40 am
That did occur to me, Larrers.  I'll leave it up to you! No sweat if you don't.  I guess the worst that might happen is that the machine will have a paroxysm, melt and flow off the table and I'll have to go on a course.  Actually, the latter is unlikely as I have form and the corporation tries to run courses without me finding out about them.  ;)
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: fd3 on 22 July, 2021, 09:20:47 am
The thing is, a lot of men get away with being sexist shit bags, because other men around them who may inwardly think "I say old chap, that's not on", yet don't have the fucking balls to call them out for it.
This is very true, painfully so.  Did an anti bullying course and one of the things that stuck with me is that there is no such thing as a bystander, if you are a bystander you are giving tacit support to the bully.  What’s the Latin saying that translates as “those who do not speak agree with me”?
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: fd3 on 22 July, 2021, 09:23:04 am
I suspect the reasons for that, and for the women's team fine, are that the rule-givers are a bit too pleased with their position of power, and they're probably a bunch of middle-aged white men who've never even played the game. As several sports have done in the past, it's probably time for the teams and the rulemakers to part company.

Bingo!

I’d be surprised if it’s anything to do with sponsorship or what the punters have demanded.
This is so stupid that it never occurred to me. 
As in, I think you’re probably right, but I hadn’t considered that people would be this [redacted].
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: ravenbait on 22 July, 2021, 09:25:43 am
I'll bet "BUT THE SPONSORS" is the excuse they tell each other, thobut.

Sam
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: TimC on 22 July, 2021, 10:48:22 am
I'll bet "BUT THE SPONSORS" is the excuse they tell each other, thobut.

Sam

Yes, maybe. I didn't spend a long time looking, but it would appear that Beach Handball (a separate code from other forms of Handball) has few, if any, sponsors, and has little exposure (sorry!) beyond things like their European Championships - which, but for this row, we'd probably never have heard of. As the code is only 19 years old, it seems unlikely that the regulators were high-level practitioners of the sport and are more likely the aforementioned middle-aged white blokes who tend to be serial busybodies (I'll bet you have several on your local council/bowling club/other outlet for pomposity) and who, as mentioned, refused the men's game permission to wear skimpier clothing. In other words, they just like having rules to play with and people to put down. While they may indeed be voyeurs, I doubt the potential publicity consequences of insisting women in the game wear revealing clothing ever crossed their tiny minds.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: fd3 on 22 July, 2021, 11:29:44 am
And while it’s not as popular as football sur le Continong there are still professional leagues. The Frankfurt newspaper favoured by Miss von Brandenburg's old man devoted almost as many column inches to handball as it did to footie.
I thought it was very big in many countries in Europe.  It was recently the number 4 sport in France.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: TimC on 22 July, 2021, 01:20:44 pm
And while it’s not as popular as football sur le Continong there are still professional leagues. The Frankfurt newspaper favoured by Miss von Brandenburg's old man devoted almost as many column inches to handball as it did to footie.
I thought it was very big in many countries in Europe.  It was recently the number 4 sport in France.

You do appreciate that field handball is not the topic at hand?
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 22 July, 2021, 01:25:48 pm
I'll bet "BUT THE SPONSORS" is the excuse they tell each other, thobut.

Sam

Yes, maybe. I didn't spend a long time looking, but it would appear that Beach Handball (a separate code from other forms of Handball) has few, if any, sponsors, and has little exposure (sorry!) beyond things like their European Championships - which, but for this row, we'd probably never have heard of. As the code is only 19 years old, it seems unlikely that the regulators were high-level practitioners of the sport and are more likely the aforementioned middle-aged white blokes who tend to be serial busybodies (I'll bet you have several on your local council/bowling club/other outlet for pomposity) and who, as mentioned, refused the men's game permission to wear skimpier clothing. In other words, they just like having rules to play with and people to put down. While they may indeed be voyeurs, I doubt the potential publicity consequences of insisting women in the game wear revealing clothing ever crossed their tiny minds.
Where did you read that? I can't find it in the bbc article. But it does add an extra layer of absurdity and bureaucratic nitpicking to the whole situation.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: TimC on 22 July, 2021, 01:29:37 pm
Where did you read that? I can't find it in the bbc article. But it does add an extra layer of absurdity and bureaucratic nitpicking to the whole situation.

From the Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beach_handball) entry:

"Bikinis are the traditional outfit of beach handball. The form fitting uniform allows increased mobility and also less likely to trap sand. In 2002 the men’s BHA requested a more “form-fitting” uniform similar to the women’s’ but it was denied by the association.[2]"
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 22 July, 2021, 01:40:56 pm
Ta. Even more silliness.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: PeteB99 on 22 July, 2021, 01:43:11 pm
My Liverpool school started a handball club in the late 60's. (New PE teacher with big ideas) We practised in secret for a few months until we were good enough to beat any other local school who fancied trying it. Sadly none did and it folded. The same guy also started a Gaelic football team which got a lot more interest but apparently the GAA got wind of it and squashed it (English weren't supposed to play it in those days).

While we're on the subject is there a dress code in athletics? The few times I've watched the running male athletes seem to wear a full length singlet even though its only purpose is to provide something to pin the number to. Female athletes seem to wear a cut off top and run with a bare midriff Why?
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: ravenbait on 22 July, 2021, 04:11:18 pm
While we're on the subject is there a dress code in athletics? The few times I've watched the running male athletes seem to wear a full length singlet even though its only purpose is to provide something to pin the number to. Female athletes seem to wear a cut off top and run with a bare midriff Why?

I don't believe there is beyond wearing some form of clothing that does not confer an advantage.

I imagine that the male athletes in question feel they would look silly in a crop top.

Sam
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Beardy on 22 July, 2021, 11:32:42 pm
I’ve fallen behind on this thread, so forgive me if I’m repeating anything.
In response to J’s comments about men wearing the same thing, where as women have to decide on what is appropriate and have they worn it before. I have, in the past, got quite annoyed at dress code rules because I’ve had to wear a dark grey suit with shirt and tie even on stupid hot days, when my female colleagues have been able to swan in wearing comfortable short skirts. That situation had changed a lot in IT by the time I left, and formal wear was only really required when visiting (new) customers ant techs could even then still get away with jeans and black T’s (regardless of gender). It certainly balanced the scales when in the base office as we all pretty much wore jeans/chinos and polo shirts/sweatshirts, although the ladies still had more flexibility in the hot weather if they chose.

As for watching sport, I mostly prefer to watch what most would have been considered as  ‘edge’ sports in the past, sailing, cycling, diving, skateboarding, snow boarding, surfing etc, but occasionally watch athletics or swimming. I watch to see the performances/competition but I’m not going to stop preferring to see women in tight clothing over men in tight clothing. That said, I wouldn’t stop watching a sport if the women all suddenly decided that they wanted to wear baggy clothes to compete, I’m watching for the sport, but I’m mature and honest enough to say that the shapely females are a pleasant addition. As I said up thread though, I DO actively avoid the beach volleyball and will also avoid the Handball because the revealing clothing mandated. I’ll add any other sport to my personal veto list if I’m told it has a code that requires the objectification of a person. But I’m not going to stop looking at and enjoying those that are comfortable with being on display. It would be dishonest to say otherwise.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: TimC on 23 July, 2021, 08:55:53 am
Ta. Even more silliness.

If you think about it, there's plenty of it about. Golf, tennis, bowling, and many others have 'dress codes', on and off the field of play, that at the least are silly, and sometimes discriminatory. Beardy mentions dress codes in work life, and I can vouch that in my time in the military it was sometimes impossible to be certain what it was you were supposed to wear! At least male and female uniforms were often equally uncomfortable and impractical. But (some) sport does seem to be a remaining bastion of ridiculousness.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: DuncanM on 23 July, 2021, 09:17:51 am
And then there was this:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/03/idiotic-fury-in-ukraine-after-female-soldiers-made-to-march-in-heels

It seems to basically be the "beach" sports that insist on skimpiness for skimpiness' sake. Which to my mind basically takes them away from proper sport, and more towards this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legends_Football_League  :sick:
(NB absolutely no disrespect intended towards the athletes who compete in these events, just the stupid rules that are more interested in exposed flesh than sport)
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Mr Larrington on 23 July, 2021, 10:49:11 am

It seems to basically be the "beach" sports that insist on skimpiness for skimpiness' sake. Which to my mind basically takes them away from proper sport, and more towards this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legends_Football_League  :sick:


 :o
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Paul on 23 July, 2021, 12:49:14 pm
Really good, thought-provoking thread. The kind of thing YACF does well, I think.

I think the different dress rules for men and women nonsense shouldn’t even have to be a discussion this far into the C21, but it is.

But what I’ve learned here is the ‘not all men’ point. I have said this in the past but I’ll think twice before doing so again.

Oh, and Mr L’s link to all things Leet was another eye-opener. I thought he’d been typing in mittens all this time!
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: bobb on 23 July, 2021, 12:51:37 pm
If you think about it, there's plenty of it about. Golf, tennis, bowling, and many others have 'dress codes', on and off the field of play, that at the least are silly, and sometimes discriminatory. Beardy mentions dress codes in work life, and I can vouch that in my time in the military it was sometimes impossible to be certain what it was you were supposed to wear! At least male and female uniforms were often equally uncomfortable and impractical. But (some) sport does seem to be a remaining bastion of ridiculousness.

Strangely, even sports and activities that pride themselves on being a bit street, rebellious or underground and therefore having no rules, actually tend towards a dress code. I'm thinking skateboarding, BMX, parkour etc... People are easily identifiable as participants of any of those activities by what they wear. And indeed anyone rocking up to a jam not conforming to that dress code would probably be shunned for being a weirdo!

In point of fact, I always got disdainful looks up at the trails and dirt jumps in the woods wearing "road" cycling gear, so I went out and got some baggy MTB shorts and a pair of 5 Tens - now everybody greets me warmly as a fellow steazey, shredder of the gnar! Which I'm stoked about  :P
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Wowbagger on 23 July, 2021, 01:54:26 pm
I'm planning to go for a skinny dip with three friends about midnight tonight. I've no idea what to wear...
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Peter on 23 July, 2021, 01:55:52 pm
Dark Glasses:  It's pretty much a full moon and I can imagine some shocking sights.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: citoyen on 23 July, 2021, 02:12:33 pm
I'm planning to go for a skinny dip with three friends about midnight tonight. I've no idea what to wear...

Better choose quickly - you'll need to allow time to get your outfit ratified by the International Federation of Skinny Dippers, or you could risk a fine.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: spesh on 23 July, 2021, 02:21:20 pm
Dark Glasses:  It's pretty much a full moon and I can imagine some shocking sights.

You are Zaphod Beeblebrox AICMFP.  8)

https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Joo_Janta_200_Super-Chromatic_Peril_Sensitive_Sunglasses
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: De Sisti on 23 July, 2021, 02:26:28 pm
While we're on the subject is there a dress code in athletics? The few times I've watched the running male athletes seem to wear a full length singlet even though its only purpose is to provide something to pin the number to. Female athletes seem to wear a cut off top and run with a bare midriff Why?
I have often thought the same thing. It's not as if the aforementioned (skimpy) kit is compulsory.
Do the women who wear that sort of kit happy showing off their bodies?
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Beardy on 23 July, 2021, 02:27:24 pm
I'm planning to go for a skinny dip with three friends about midnight tonight. I've no idea what to wear...
I like the idea of skinny dipping but unfortunately I just don’t have a thing to wear…
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Peter on 23 July, 2021, 02:31:48 pm
Dark Glasses:  It's pretty much a full moon and I can imagine some shocking sights.

You are Zaphod Beeblebrox AICMFP.  8)

https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Joo_Janta_200_Super-Chromatic_Peril_Sensitive_Sunglasses

Ha!  I wear them to watch Newcastle - which means I don't have to leave the house!  Good spot!

Edit: Obviously, I wear them for beach volleyball: when you support Newcastle you've seen all the beer-bellies you can handle - if you'll forgive the image (both of seeing and handling)!
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: ravenbait on 23 July, 2021, 04:00:55 pm
Strangely, even sports and activities that pride themselves on being a bit street, rebellious or underground and therefore having no rules, actually tend towards a dress code. I'm thinking skateboarding, BMX, parkour etc... People are easily identifiable as participants of any of those activities by what they wear. And indeed anyone rocking up to a jam not conforming to that dress code would probably be shunned for being a weirdo!

There's a difference between wearing the same stuff to show yourself part of the "in" crowd, part of that social group — i.e. conform to peer pressure — and wearing clothes that are mandated to you by some governing body who have probably never played your sport in their rich, entitled lives. Whether the latter is because they like to exert petty power, or because they're worried the sponsor's BELLYADETM won't sell so many units due to the women having less skin on show so the sweaty fappers won't be subliminally tempted to consume their products as a proxy for touching said women is not worth arguing about. Either way, it blows goats.

Sam
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Gattopardo on 23 July, 2021, 04:13:15 pm
didn't want to see some dude's package, that's gay.  ::-)


Or intimidating...Look it's cold....


Also what is the athlete revealing?  Is it a surprise?  Is it some hidden subliminal message?


Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 23 July, 2021, 05:28:39 pm
Your quoting is a bit shonky there, Gatto, I never said that. (I think it was something said by Ravenbait in an ironic way – but it might have been someone else entirely).
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: DuncanM on 24 July, 2021, 09:47:43 am
It was Ravenbait, reporting on responses to a twitter post saying that if the women have to wear bikinis the men should have to wear budgie smugglers.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: citoyen on 24 July, 2021, 11:33:37 am
Do the women who wear that sort of kit happy showing off their bodies?

I think considerations of what they look like are very low on their list of priorities. For elite sportspeople, clothing is functional, not decorative (which is not to say that they don’t care about their appearance, because many of them clearly do, but that isn’t their number one concern). I’m sure many of them would happily perform naked if they felt it gave them a performance advantage.

The point, really, is that it should be the individual’s choice - outside of what is required for safety. So if some people do want to cover up more, they should be free to do so, and not be threatened with ridiculous unjustifiable fines.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Wowbagger on 24 July, 2021, 11:44:54 am
It was Ravenbait, reporting on responses to a twitter post saying that if the women have to wear bikinis the men should have to wear budgie smugglers.

In French swimming pools, they do. And bonnets de bain, which is a bit pointless in my case as very little of my hair is on the top of my head.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 24 July, 2021, 09:55:13 pm
Seems the official who complained about Breen's bikini-style shorts was a woman.
Quote
Last week, the double Paralympic world champion Olivia Breen shared a story of an incident at the English Athletics Championships. When she had just finished her long jump competition, a female official said “my sprint shorts were too short and inappropriate”, she wrote. “I was left speechless... they are specifically designed for competing in.” She has said she is planning to make an official complaint.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jul/24/time-to-give-those-in-charge-of-female-athletics-short-shrift
(if the Graun is to be trusted)
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: citoyen on 24 July, 2021, 10:12:13 pm
Seems the official who complained about Breen's bikini-style shorts was a woman.

Had you assumed it was a man, hmm?

It’s not really important though. What’s more significant is that the official probably wouldn’t have felt empowered to make a similar comment to a male athlete (which is also a bit of an assumption, I admit).
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 24 July, 2021, 10:17:37 pm
As I was about to say, now I've got my internet connection back! No, it doesn't change the import of what was said, but I'd certainly assumed it was a man, perhaps because the report in the OP showed (for some reason) a photo of a male official (who certainly doesn't look like a long jumper). And then there were comments from various people about rules being made by middle-aged white men.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Peter on 24 July, 2021, 10:55:38 pm
Here's the relevant statement;-

"She said 'I think what you're wearing is very revealing and I think you should consider buying shorts'. I didn't know what to say I was left speechless and my first thought process was 'are you joking?'."  This was in the report I linked to.

However, I'm not surprised at the confusion - blaming middle-aged white men for things is a bit of a default position in society, currently.  I was fortunate to go straight from youth to old-age in what seems, sadly, an instant!   :'(

I notice the athlete says she's been wearing them for nine years without problems.  I usually reckon to change mine at least every other day  - otherwise other people have problems!
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 26 July, 2021, 07:33:58 am
Moving swiftly over my inattentive reading and going to Tokyo:
Quote
Germany's gymnasts wore full-body suits in women's qualification at the Olympics as they continued their stand against the sexualisation of their sport.

Some of them wore similar outfits at the European Championships earlier this year, with Sarah Voss saying she and her team-mates wanted to make youngsters feel safe in the sport.

Voss joined Pauline Schaefer-Betz, Elisabeth Seitz and Kim Bui in donning the red and white outfits that extended to the ankles on Sunday.

The body suits defy convention, with most gymnasts opting for a leotard and those who cover their legs in international competition doing so for religious reasons.

Gymnasts' outfits take on sexualisation in sport
The German team had worn similar outfits during training last week, with three-time Olympian Seitz saying at the time that it was "about what feels comfortable".

"We wanted to show that every woman, everybody, should decide what to wear," she said.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/57961055

I note (cos I did read) this "defies convention" rather than rules. It still looks pretty gymnastic to me, and as far as I can tell from the accompanying photo, it still looks skin tight – which I guess it has to be to enable someone to jump and pirouette and so on. I don't know, without looking for a photo, how long the costumes of the male gymnasts are, but I'm pretty sure they're also skin tight.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Beardy on 26 July, 2021, 10:12:20 am
There’s obviously a need for the suits to be skin tight to avoid snagging, but it seems eminently reasonable to wear what you feel comfortable in. I hope it becomes a trend that catches on in other sports.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: citoyen on 26 July, 2021, 10:24:09 am
Here's the relevant statement;-

"She said 'I think what you're wearing..."

Thanks. I had a feeling it did say in the original report you shared that the official was a woman, but on a quick rescan I missed that subtle hint.

As Cudzo says, the image chosen to accompany the piece does give a misleading impression. But still, it's neither here nor there - it's not who the official is that matters, but what they said and who they said it to.

Quote
blaming middle-aged white men for things is a bit of a default position in society, currently.

Not without good reason, to be fair.

Being very much a middle-aged white man myself, I have to take this on the chin. Luckily, I'm emotionally secure enough not to take it personally.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: citoyen on 26 July, 2021, 10:34:47 am
There’s obviously a need for the suits to be skin tight to avoid snagging, but it seems eminently reasonable to wear what you feel comfortable in. I hope it becomes a trend that catches on in other sports.

Getting rid of stupid, pointless rules is a laudable aim, but the long-term objective should be changing attitudes, not changing what women wear. The freedom to cover up is only a partial freedom. Women should also be able to feel comfortable not covering up, if that is their choice.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: fd3 on 26 July, 2021, 10:55:52 am
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-57967486
Quote
US pop star Pink has offered to pay the fines handed out to the Norwegian women's beach handball team, after they wore shorts like their male counterparts instead of bikini bottoms.
The team was fined 1,500 euros (£1,295) last week for "improper clothing" at the European Beach Handball Championships.
"I'm very proud of the Norwegian female beach handball team for protesting sexist rules about their uniform," tweeted the singer on Sunday.
"Good on ya, ladies," she added.
"I'll be happy to pay your fines for you. Keep it up."
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 26 July, 2021, 11:10:44 am
it's not who the official is that matters, but what they said and who they said it to.
In the case of an official, yes, but in some other circumstances I think a man telling a woman to cover up could come across as (or simply be) leering rather than disapproval. And in the handball case of course it wasn't either, it was just the official doing their job.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: ravenbait on 26 July, 2021, 11:35:37 am
it's not who the official is that matters, but what they said and who they said it to.
In the case of an official, yes, but in some other circumstances I think a man telling a woman to cover up could come across as (or simply be) leering rather than disapproval. And in the handball case of course it wasn't either, it was just the official doing their job.

And don't forget internalised misogyny is a thing, and many women have been indoctrinated with the idea that men are uncontrollable beasts who cannot be held account for their actions upon seeing too much female skin, and it is somehow our fault for provoking them, and thus we are in the wrong if we wear clothes that are too revealing. It is still the fault of the patriarchy. Male bodies are generally sexualised in the underpants area. Women's bodies are sexualised from neck to knee.

Sam
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: nikki on 26 July, 2021, 11:45:18 am
The YouTube algorithm sucked me into watching US college artistic gymnastics after watching a few of the viral routines from Nia Dennis and Margzetta Frazier at the start of last year.

I've seen a few gymnasts now refer to having to use adhesive spray to ensure that what little is covered by the conventional leotards remains covered. Often in training videos they're wearing short shorts or boxer brief style shorts.

The official judging of artistic gymnastics relies heavily on being able to clearly see to what extent limbs are extended and separated. There are also horrific stories of body shaming coming from internet abusers and in-person interactions within the sport.

Following the revelation of the extent of systemic sexual abuse of female gymnasts by their coaches, doctors etc (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_Gymnastics_sex_abuse_scandal), young women involved in the sport have been doing some really impressive stuff to speak out against abuse, harassment, prejudice, sexualisation, racism and more. Much respect to them.



it's not who the official is that matters, but what they said and who they said it to.
In the case of an official, yes, but in some other circumstances I think a man telling a woman to cover up could come across as (or simply be) leering rather than disapproval. And in the handball case of course it wasn't either, it was just the official doing their job.

And don't forget internalised misogyny is a thing [...]

Also the dominant group sending in the token minority representative to be the messenger.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: ravenbait on 26 July, 2021, 11:56:29 am
Following the revelation of the extent of systemic sexual abuse of female gymnasts by their coaches, doctors etc (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_Gymnastics_sex_abuse_scandal), young women involved in the sport have been doing some really impressive stuff to speak out against abuse, harassment, prejudice, sexualisation, racism and more. Much respect to them.

Agreed.

Quote
Also the dominant group sending in the token minority representative to be the messenger.

^^This. I wonder whose decision it was? Everyone assumes it was the official's, but that's not her job, so was it?

Sam
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Beardy on 26 July, 2021, 01:19:17 pm
it's not who the official is that matters, but what they said and who they said it to.
In the case of an official, yes, but in some other circumstances I think a man telling a woman to cover up could come across as (or simply be) leering rather than disapproval. And in the handball case of course it wasn't either, it was just the official doing their job.

And don't forget internalised misogyny is a thing, and many women have been indoctrinated with the idea that men are uncontrollable beasts who cannot be held account for their actions upon seeing too much female skin, and it is somehow our fault for provoking them, and thus we are in the wrong if we wear clothes that are too revealing. It is still the fault of the patriarchy. Male bodies are generally sexualised in the underpants area. Women's bodies are sexualised from neck to knee.

Sam
A much more worrying issue is that in many cultures men are indoctrinated with the idea that they are uncontrollable beasts who cannot be held,to account for their actions upon seeing too much female skin. Including our own culture. See victim blaming in court…
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 26 July, 2021, 01:22:42 pm
I'd taken it not being her job as part of the point. As in, the handball official was simply enforcing the rules, just like a UCI official measuring socks(!), (I don't know how much discretion they're allowed in this, but it sounds like very little if any given the comments about the men not being allowed to wear tighter shorts), but the athletics official was going beyond her role and expressing a personal opinion on an unregulated topic. If she was talked into it by someone else, well we don't know.

Also, I'd say your opinion on the sexualised areas of the body is very conservative both for men and women! (Idle thought: I wonder if shows like Love Island etc contribute to an increasing sexualised view of, well, most things? Also, whereas Victorians had sexualised ankles because everything else was covered up, we've gone the other way and sexualised everything by exposing it.)
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: ravenbait on 26 July, 2021, 01:44:55 pm
Also, I'd say your opinion on the sexualised areas of the body is very conservative both for men and women! (Idle thought: I wonder if shows like Love Island etc contribute to an increasing sexualised view of, well, most things? Also, whereas Victorians had sexualised ankles because everything else was covered up, we've gone the other way and sexualised everything by exposing it.)

Meh. I don't think exposure equates to sexualisation. If that were the case, human tribes where people wear very little clothing would have issues with entitlement. Breasts, for instance, are not seen as sexual in many tribes. They are for feeding babies. If anything, exposure in contexts that are non-sexual do the opposite.

Skin exposure in media is generally aimed at the male gaze. So Hugh Jackman's ridiculous buffness as Wolverine has nothing to do with sexualising him for the women in the audience -- it's a power fantasy for men (Wolverine is actually 5'3 and hairy, and would be better played by Danny Devito). I'm sure you must have seen the compare and contrast of Jackman on the front of a men's magazine and him on the front of a women's magazine. If not, it's buff super soldier vs a nice young man in a cardigan. Women are depicted as fantasy objects for men; men are depicted as what other men think women want. But keep the pants on, because otherwise it's too "gay". You probably missed the furore over showing Jackman's bum in Days of Future Past.

I think the issue is more the old adage "sex sells", but the people in charge of making money haven't quite caught up with the fact that women have their own money now, and make their own choices about how to spend it. So advertising is still largely directed at men (unless it's for traditionally female activities, like child-rearing and housework).

There. I've depressed myself. I'm going for a walk.

Sam
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 26 July, 2021, 02:02:21 pm
Also, I'd say your opinion on the sexualised areas of the body is very conservative both for men and women! (Idle thought: I wonder if shows like Love Island etc contribute to an increasing sexualised view of, well, most things? Also, whereas Victorians had sexualised ankles because everything else was covered up, we've gone the other way and sexualised everything by exposing it.)

Meh. I don't think exposure equates to sexualisation. If that were the case, human tribes where people wear very little clothing would have issues with entitlement. Breasts, for instance, are not seen as sexual in many tribes. They are for feeding babies. If anything, exposure in contexts that are non-sexual do the opposite.
No, that's not what I meant at all. It's the expression of sexualisation that has gone from very limited and deliberate exposure (of pretty much any part other than face and hands) to an undirected (but still deliberate) exposure of almost everything. As in, the more you show, the "sexier" you are. At least in certain situations (which probably don't include sports).

Anyway, I must get on with editing a boring training video about stuff that's mostly written in CamelCase (no, I can't de-camel it, it's trade marks).
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: fd3 on 31 July, 2021, 10:52:37 am
We does love a bit of victim blaming,

I agree that you have some very conservative views of sexualisation RB; I remember a French equivalent to mad magazine doing a comparison of male and female sexy parts.  There was one entry for men and for women it went on to fingernails, toes and internal organs.
As women now have the money, why do we not see more attempts at women selling stuff to women using the objectification of men?
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: ravenbait on 31 July, 2021, 11:46:11 am
We does love a bit of victim blaming,

I agree that you have some very conservative views of sexualisation RB; I remember a French equivalent to mad magazine doing a comparison of male and female sexy parts.  There was one entry for men and for women it went on to fingernails, toes and internal organs.
As women now have the money, why do we not see more attempts at women selling stuff to women using the objectification of men?

Because, for the most part, advertising sells to men on the basis of entitlement. Cars, watches, you name it. You, Man, deserve these things. You, Man, deserve the life that delivers these things. You deserve the luxury car and the elegant mansion and the beautiful woman who will look at you adoringly. Western culture inculcates men with this sense that they are the hero of their own life and the trappings of herodom belong to them by right. This is from where MGTOW ultimately derive the enormous, misogynistic chip on their collective shoulder.

The Old Spice advert takes all the tropes of advertising and turns them on their head and it's hilarious:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owGykVbfgUE

It's aimed at women, because women still do most of the household chores including shopping, and Old Spice is the kind of thing you grab from the supermarket shelf while you're doing your weekly shop.  It also very explicitly makes it obvious it's complete fantasy. "The man your man could smell like." That's the only promise it makes.

Women are not raised with that innate sense of entitlement. Women know this world is not built for them, designed for them, interested in their health or welfare or justice. Women know that everything from kitchen cupboard height to seatbelt design is configured by and for men. Women know that medicine and employment consider women of secondary importance. Aiming the kind of advertising at us that men get wouldn't sell anything. You show me a woman dressed in high finery with a man hanging adoringly off her arm and all I can think is that he probably still can't clean a kitchen without being asked, is incapable of organising stock takes and menus for the next month, and doesn't check to see if the enormous shit he did that morning flushed properly [1]. There is a reason Charlize Theron is attended by women in the J'Adore advert:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIbY_lxHBSE

Replace all those women with beautiful men and most women would think, "JFC, I bet they're a ton of work."

Indeed, in the follow-up advert, Ms Theron just basically states outright: jewellery, cars, luxury living -- it's all bollocks. Which, you know, ironic given the circumstances. But it's a clever advert.

The kind of male presence that would sell to women in adverts is humorous, caring, thoughtful, intelligent. They are men who are interested in you as a person, not you the means to satisfy their own desires and pleasures. They're like jeans with functional pockets -- a wonderful idea, surprisingly hard to find.

It's oddly depressing to think how much selling to women boils down to: we want to make your life easier. Also, how about you smell nice when you do it? Or here's an experience that's actually pleasurable.

Did you ever wonder why Herbal Essences used to have women making vaguely orgasmic noises in their adverts? Ever think about what that implies about the women using their shampoo in the advert?

To be fair, I have an odd fascination with adverts because they often don't work on me. I remember Andy Gates and my other half trying hard one afternoon years ago to explain to me why anyone would want to buy shoes that had scorpions in them (Nike something or the other). I find the weird connotations of the stories ads tell strangely interesting.

Sam
[1] This should not be taken as a comment on Mr Bait, who shares enough of the domestic workload that it astonishes RB senior.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: TimC on 31 July, 2021, 12:24:59 pm
Cars, watches, you name it. You, Man, deserve these things. You, Man, deserve the life that delivers these things. You deserve the luxury car and the elegant mansion and the beautiful woman who will look at you adoringly. Western culture inculcates men with this sense that they are the hero of their own life and the trappings of herodom belong to them by right.

Is that me? Blimey... Did I get the wrong memo?
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: fd3 on 31 July, 2021, 01:50:54 pm
I generally fail to understand ads, or they annoy me so much I vow not to buy it (easy in most cases).  But I is not normal.
I remember 20 years ago in Germany, advertising was like being back in the 70s, wanna sell cigarettes? Naked woman.  Want to sell cars? Naked woman. Want to sell pizza? Naked woman.  Comparatively the U.K. advertising world is much more work in that they just can’t take the naked woman route.

Tim, I have a hypothesis - at some point you stopped and thought about what is important to you in your life.  I suspect that having a sense of priorities and what is important makes you less able to relate to advertising.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 31 July, 2021, 08:51:11 pm
This is from where MGTOW ultimately derive the enormous, misogynistic chip on their collective shoulder.
Having devized various possibilities (Misogynist gammon threatening our world?), I looked it up. Turns out it even has a Wikipedia page:
Quote
Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW /ˈmɪɡtaʊ/) is an anti-feminist, misogynistic, mostly online community advocating for men to separate themselves from women and from a society which they believe has been corrupted by feminism.[2] The community is a part of the manosphere, a collection of anti-feminist websites and online communities that also includes the men's rights movement, incels, and pickup artists.[3]

Like other manosphere communities, MGTOW overlaps with the alt-right and white supremacist movements,[4] and it has been implicated in online harassment of women.[5] The Southern Poverty Law Center categorizes MGTOW as a part of the male supremacist ideology.[6]
"Manosphere?"  :sick:
 
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: ravenbait on 01 August, 2021, 12:01:39 pm
Is that me? Blimey... Did I get the wrong memo?

Unless you have actively and deliberately set out to divest yourself of media programming -- and you might! Television is the worst purveyor such nonsense, and I understand many YACFers have long since removed television from their lives -- then you might be surprised.

This stuff is insidious. A good way to tell if you have escaped it is to ask yourself if your response to a women explaining how men have it better than they do is: "Not me." If your first instinct is to refocus the discussion on you, then I'm afraid yes, you got the memo. You just didn't know you were getting the memo.

Sam
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Karla on 01 August, 2021, 02:44:24 pm
Cars, watches, you name it. You, Man, deserve these things. You, Man, deserve the life that delivers these things. You deserve the luxury car and the elegant mansion and the beautiful woman who will look at you adoringly. Western culture inculcates men with this sense that they are the hero of their own life and the trappings of herodom belong to them by right.

Is that me? Blimey... Did I get the wrong memo?

Remember Tim, you're an awful person, and you can't help being an awful person, because Ravenbait says you are.

She can probably help you overcome your demons with a personalised series of coaching sessions for very reasonable prices  :-\
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: ravenbait on 01 August, 2021, 02:54:53 pm

Remember Tim, you're an awful person, and you can't help being an awful person, because Ravenbait says you are.

She can probably help you overcome your demons with a personalised series of coaching sessions for very reasonable prices  :-\

I never said Tim was an awful person. I think the exact opposite. Please feel free to take your projection elsewhere.

Sam
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: TimC on 01 August, 2021, 05:29:02 pm
Is that me? Blimey... Did I get the wrong memo?

Unless you have actively and deliberately set out to divest yourself of media programming -- and you might! Television is the worst purveyor such nonsense, and I understand many YACFers have long since removed television from their lives -- then you might be surprised.

This stuff is insidious. A good way to tell if you have escaped it is to ask yourself if your response to a women explaining how men have it better than they do is: "Not me." If your first instinct is to refocus the discussion on you, then I'm afraid yes, you got the memo. You just didn't know you were getting the memo.

Sam

I haven't actually removed myself from TV, but I'm not normally a consumer of ads or their content. Indeed, I've led a somewhat charmed life and it's probably fair to say I can afford to be impervious to marketeers' needs and expectations. I'm also very aware that many women of my generation would never have had the opportunities I had - and though I've done a lot of work over the years to redress that professionally, I'm also well aware that there still isn't equality of opportunity, let alone equality of life experiences. I just don't see myself as the hero of my own life story - indeed, the idea makes me laugh! But it was a bit of a throwaway line, and not meant as any kind of ironic comment on the points at hand.

Cars, watches, you name it. You, Man, deserve these things. You, Man, deserve the life that delivers these things. You deserve the luxury car and the elegant mansion and the beautiful woman who will look at you adoringly. Western culture inculcates men with this sense that they are the hero of their own life and the trappings of herodom belong to them by right.

Is that me? Blimey... Did I get the wrong memo?

Remember Tim, you're an awful person, and you can't help being an awful person, because Ravenbait says you are.

She can probably help you overcome your demons with a personalised series of coaching sessions for very reasonable prices  :-\

At no point have I inferred such a thing from anything Sam has said. Sam is someone I have admired greatly for many years, and thoroughly enjoyed some great forum (and - on at least one famous occasion - IRL) banter with, going back to the old Cakestop days. I'm quite certain she could - and indeed does - help me be a better person, and I am privileged to receive her wisdom.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 02 August, 2021, 09:01:00 pm
I’ve fallen behind on this thread, so forgive me if I’m repeating anything.
In response to J’s comments about men wearing the same thing, where as women have to decide on what is appropriate and have they worn it before. I have, in the past, got quite annoyed at dress code rules because I’ve had to wear a dark grey suit with shirt and tie even on stupid hot days, when my female colleagues have been able to swan in wearing comfortable short skirts. That situation had changed a lot in IT by the time I left, and formal wear was only really required when visiting (new) customers ant techs could even then still get away with jeans and black T’s (regardless of gender). It certainly balanced the scales when in the base office as we all pretty much wore jeans/chinos and polo shirts/sweatshirts, although the ladies still had more flexibility in the hot weather if they chose.


The thing is, you could have worn the same dark grey suit every single day in that job, and while it is uncomfortable in the heat, if your female colleagues had worn the same short skirt every day, people would comment. Not to mention no doubt if the skirt was too short someone would comment.

There is a lot of inequality in work wear, whether it's the lack of properly fitting PPE, the requirement to wear harmful high heels, to the judgement levied upon women's choice. Fortunately many modern firms are starting to realise that dress codes are often utterly shite. My office based employers here, when asked if there was a dress code, have responded "Yes, please where clothes". Tho with WFH, as I never turn my camera on*, noone knows that I regularly turn up to team meetings with nothing on. Removing the suit+tie requirement in many offices in summer would mean the Aircon could be set to a slightly lower output, saving some energy. I don't want to devalue the discomfort you've experienced at having to wear a suit in hot weather. But at least noone will complain at you about the fact it's the same suit every day. And you can pair it with sensible(ish) shoes.

J

* Either that, or people have been too polite to point it out for the last 8 months.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Kim on 02 August, 2021, 10:13:42 pm
Barakta went out and bought assorted brightly coloured tops to wear at $ork n-2 because people kept making comments about her wearing black all the time and it was the path or least resistance.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Karla on 02 August, 2021, 10:37:32 pm
The thing is, you could have worn the same dark grey suit every single day in that job

Not really.  Wearing the same clothes every day to work?  Ewwwww  :sick:
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 August, 2021, 10:42:50 pm
I was at an actual physical, in person, face to face meeting a couple of weeks ago and I noticed that one of the women present was wearing high heels. There was no dress code and it wasn't a formal occasion (I was in shorts, another woman was in a very faded sleeveless vest, etc). It did make me wonder what high heels are for. I mean, yeah, they're office uniform, which wasn't applicable here, but weren't they originally (probably over a hundred years ago) to make people look taller? This woman is tall anyway. Not just tall for a woman, tall for a human of any sort. Anyway, the meeting was relatively unproductive but she was one of the most contributory persons.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 02 August, 2021, 10:51:06 pm
I was at an actual physical, in person, face to face meeting a couple of weeks ago and I noticed that one of the women present was wearing high heels. There was no dress code and it wasn't a formal occasion (I was in shorts, another woman was in a very faded sleeveless vest, etc). It did make me wonder what high heels are for. I mean, yeah, they're office uniform, which wasn't applicable here, but weren't they originally (probably over a hundred years ago) to make people look taller? This woman is tall anyway. Not just tall for a woman, tall for a human of any sort. Anyway, the meeting was relatively unproductive but she was one of the most contributory persons.

History lesson time.

The original purpose of the heal on a shoe was to keep your feet on the stirrups on a horse. Healed shoes were a mark of horse ownership and status. Over time fashion resulted in the heal getting higher, and for several hundred years, high heels were a men's fashion. Just as Pink was considered manly. Over time things have shifted, and now high heels are solely seen as the preserve of women. It's very hard to buy smart women's shoes that aren't either ugly, high heeled, or both. Some women wear high heels (and otherwise painfully impractical looking footwear), because they like to, because that's what they feel most comfortable in. Which of course they are free to so choose. As long as they are not being forced.

The medical implications of wearing high heels are a different discussion...

J
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 August, 2021, 10:56:58 pm
High heels were worn by and marketed at men from at least the 17th century (Pepys wore them) to the 1930s, when they were known in USA as "elevator shoes". You've probably never seen The Waltons, it was on TV in the '70s, but one of the male characters in the 1930s was mocked for wearing them (in a kind of "man up and it's better to be an honest short man than look tall by cheating" sort of way). I guess they ceased to be a men's thing about the same time as it ceased to be common to ride a horse, but I think that's just coincidence (other than cowboy boots, which of course still have them).
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Peter on 02 August, 2021, 11:40:41 pm
Cuban heels were very popular with men in the 60s and were frequently seen in company with a recording contract.  They used to fail quite often - like the contracts.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Wowbagger on 03 August, 2021, 12:00:49 am
I was under the impression that the fashion for high heels amongst women persisted because it made their buttocks waggle.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 03 August, 2021, 12:03:57 am
I was under the impression that the fashion for high heels amongst women persisted because it made their buttocks waggle.

That is a common view. It raises the bum up and makes it move in a most enticing manner.

I have a pair of black leather shoes with approx 20mm of heal that I keep under my desk for when I wear a skirt to the office. I also have a pair of knee high CFM boots with a 100mm heal. They currently don't fit cos the combination of weight gain last year, and lots of cycle training means my calves are a bit too big. They look amazing. They feel amazing. and I can walk about 100m in them before they become absolute agony. Fortunately they aren't too bad to cycle in...

J
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Peter on 03 August, 2021, 12:35:23 am
J. that sounds terrifying - do you ever forget you've got them on when you dismount?
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 03 August, 2021, 12:45:05 am
J. that sounds terrifying - do you ever forget you've got them on when you dismount?

Dismounting? No. Heal strike when pedalling round corners too fast. Yes...

The looks you get when wearing a short skirt, knee high CFM boots, and wheel out the ultraracing bike. Swing the leg over the cross bar. And ride off on the aero bars. Ladylike is not a term oft used to describe me. Terrifying is quite common.

J
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Beardy on 03 August, 2021, 08:57:35 am
I thought ladylike was your standard operating model. No, sorry, like ladies isn’t it? :facepalm:

 ;D
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 05 August, 2021, 04:28:53 pm
I’ve fallen behind on this thread, so forgive me if I’m repeating anything.
In response to J’s comments about men wearing the same thing, where as women have to decide on what is appropriate and have they worn it before. I have, in the past, got quite annoyed at dress code rules because I’ve had to wear a dark grey suit with shirt and tie even on stupid hot days, when my female colleagues have been able to swan in wearing comfortable short skirts. That situation had changed a lot in IT by the time I left, and formal wear was only really required when visiting (new) customers ant techs could even then still get away with jeans and black T’s (regardless of gender). It certainly balanced the scales when in the base office as we all pretty much wore jeans/chinos and polo shirts/sweatshirts, although the ladies still had more flexibility in the hot weather if they chose.


The thing is, you could have worn the same dark grey suit every single day in that job, and while it is uncomfortable in the heat, if your female colleagues had worn the same short skirt every day, people would comment. Not to mention no doubt if the skirt was too short someone would comment.

MrsC is currently taking part in a '100 day' challenge; wear the same dress for 100 days, documenting it with photographs.

Yes, it is marketing "buy our wool dress, it doesn't get smelly", you can wear it every day."
On the other hand, she reports it is enormously freeing. She doesn't wake up and wonder what to wear that day.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 05 August, 2021, 05:51:43 pm
MrsC is currently taking part in a '100 day' challenge; wear the same dress for 100 days, documenting it with photographs.

Yes, it is marketing "buy our wool dress, it doesn't get smelly", you can wear it every day."
On the other hand, she reports it is enormously freeing. She doesn't wake up and wonder what to wear that day.

I would like to know who is selling such dresses.

J
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: L CC on 05 August, 2021, 08:25:48 pm
https://eu.wooland.com/
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 05 August, 2021, 08:26:47 pm
https://eu.wooland.com/

Thanks

J
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 07 August, 2021, 09:43:02 am
Nothing to do with sport but (at least superficially) to do with women and their clothes, here's something I read this morning:
Quote
If you are sitting in the Underground and a well-dressed woman happens to walk along the car, watch the eyes of the other women. You will see that every one of them, with the possible exception of those who are even better dressed, will watch the woman with malevolent glances, and will be struggling to draw inferences derogatory to her.
Russell, The Conquest of Happiness, as quoted by Stebbing in Thinking to some Purpose. And the purposes of his writing and her quoting are, of course, not really anything to do with clothes, or even women.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 07 August, 2021, 10:26:28 am
Nothing to do with sport but (at least superficially) to do with women and their clothes, here's something I read this morning:
Quote
If you are sitting in the Underground and a well-dressed woman happens to walk along the car, watch the eyes of the other women. You will see that every one of them, with the possible exception of those who are even better dressed, will watch the woman with malevolent glances, and will be struggling to draw inferences derogatory to her.
Russell, The Conquest of Happiness, as quoted by Stebbing in Thinking to some Purpose. And the purposes of his writing and her quoting are, of course, not really anything to do with clothes, or even women.

Um. No. I'm trying to see what my Gaydar or BiFi makes of her... cos I'm an awful human being...

J
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Clare on 07 August, 2021, 10:34:15 am
I’m usually thinking either how uncomfortable the shoes look or how I’d cut a pattern for the outfit.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 07 August, 2021, 10:43:20 am
I’m usually thinking either how uncomfortable the shoes look or how I’d cut a pattern for the outfit.

Yeah, that too.

J
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Kim on 07 August, 2021, 12:44:36 pm
I'm just relieved it's not a potential creepy man.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: ravenbait on 07 August, 2021, 02:12:49 pm
I’m usually thinking either how uncomfortable the shoes look or how I’d cut a pattern for the outfit.

How does she walk in those heels?
How long does it take her to do her hair? What time does she have to get up in the morning?
What job does she do to afford that coat? That bag? Those shoes?
Why spend <insert ridiculous sum> on something like a bag or shoes, when you could have <kayak/new bike/house on the West Coast/feed and pay vet bills for a Carpathian Shepherd/retire early and spend the rest of your life living in a cottage by the sea writing queer spec fic>?
Why would anyone want to wear a skirt in public they can barely walk in?
Didn't that wifey in Jurassic World insist her character would wear heels because that's the kind of woman she is? How bizarre.
How ridiculous was Jurassic World? And that sequel. Ugh. It belongs in the same place as Highlander 2 (the abomination that does not exist).
I wonder if Mum's still pissed off at Mr Bait for his "boots of death" quip.
Oh, is this my stop?

Sam
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 08 August, 2021, 02:24:11 pm
Stebbing's response was that she has not noticed these envious glances but this might be because she fails to recognize the well dressed woman. She also is uncertain whether she counts as a respectable woman (thought she doesn't attempt to define "respectable"). She goes on to doubt whether Russell really meant "every one of them" (she uses him as an example of the danger of immoderate language, speaking loudly as she calls it, and the fallacy of the undistributed middle).

The fallacy of the undistributed middle is
(click to show/hide)

I don't know if either of them have anything to say about men reacting to other men's clothes.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 10 August, 2021, 03:10:35 pm
Quote
Women’s sports associations across Europe have called for the resignation of the presidents of both the international and European handball federations, accusing them of “blatant sexism” for rules that require female players to wear bikini bottoms.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/10/handball-chiefs-urged-to-resign-bikini-bottoms-rule-ihf-ehf-sexism-norwegian-fined

Illustrated with a photo of the Danish team wearing shorts in 2019, which admittedly was in Qatar but still would seem to establish a precedent not to require bikinis?
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Peter on 10 August, 2021, 05:31:37 pm
No precedent is needed.  They shouldn't have to.
Title: Re: Woman Taking Different Knees?
Post by: Beardy on 10 August, 2021, 07:53:20 pm
The only time clothing should be mandated in sport is for safety reasons, and the only time an item should be banned is if it is performance enhancing and not available to all participants.