A different angle?

[tonyh]

Maybe there are other examples of the evidence from one sense (in this case Sight) being ignored (if only in the "lean" direction) in favour of what other body systems (in this case, muscles?) are saying?

Any connection with "Leaning House" optical illusions? The Leaning Cyclist is unable to accept the visual evidence (the side view of the front wheel).

[chrisbainbridge]

In-line with the theory of rocking on the saddle, a small leg length difference might also cause similar problems. Once someone was tired and unable to compensate then a saddle tilt to knee side would lead to a tilt to the other side. In addition if this was longstanding it could produce a permanent pelvic tilt.

[Ian H]

One older rider on the National 24 this weekend was leaning hard to the right and having some difficulty keeping a straight line.  He stopped as soon as he reached the finishing circuit.

[GrahamGKD]

I have had this problem twice now – both times when attempting LEL.  In 2017 I thought it was related to a shoulder problem so this time around (2022) I did a lot of work on my shoulder with help from the people at my local Chiropractic College.  The shoulder was fine, but the leaning still came on after maybe 900km or so.  In 2017 it came on later in the ride so I soldiered on and completed the event.  This time there was just too much left to do so I threw in the towel.  I am not 100% sure but I think this time I was leaning to the other side than last time.

In between these two LELs I successfully completed PBP in 2019 with no problems at all.

With me it is definitely not a balance issue.  When I look down at the bike, I can force it back to the upright position but the remedy is temporary. There was no pain associated with the lean until the effects of pedalling with the bike at an angle started to have a detrimental effect on my core – I believe this was a secondary consequence of the leaning.

After a short rest I can set out again with the bike upright and feeling normal, but the leaning soon returns.
After a day or two off the bike there is no sign of the problem at all.

I do quite a few core exercises as part of my 2 or 3 times a week routine, including side bridges.  I did a few core exercises this morning (about a week after pulling out of LEL) and nothing felt our of the ordinary.  I am 64 years old.

I would dearly like to work out what is causing this as, if I am unable to find something I can work on, I doubt I will attempt anything over 600k in the future.

[Tomsk]

I got a severe case of The Leans on LEL last week and packed at Dunfermline, despite plenty of time in hand. I didn't feel safe to continue, with some fast descents to come on the hills of the Borders and Pennines. I've seen it before in others and been told I was riding slightly off-centre out of the saddle (on fixed) on the last PBP, but wasn't aware of any problem at the time. The weird thing was that for a long time I though there was something wrong with my saddle/frame/headset affecting my position!

I hurt a tendon at the back of my left knee on the LEJOG 1400km last month, which cleared up but maybe caused some imbalance? I know from back problems years ago that I have partially fused vertebrae on one side of my lower back as well as some scoliosis, which may be the cause. I'm doing gardening work 3 days per week which has been good for core strength and flexibility, but perhaps it's just a getting older thing? We'll see how rest and some shorter rides goes before tackling anything silly. I'll also be stretching a whole lot more too as well as massaging the tight muscles in my lower back.

[GrahamGKD]

I got a severe case of The Leans on LEL last week and packed at Dunfermline, despite plenty of time in hand. I didn't feel safe to continue, with some fast descents to come on the hills of the Borders and Pennines. I've seen it before in others and been told I was riding slightly off-centre out of the saddle (on fixed) on the last PBP, but wasn't aware of any problem at the time. The weird thing was that for a long time I though there was something wrong with my saddle/frame/headset affecting my position!

I hurt a tendon at the back of my left knee on the LEJOG 1400km last month, which cleared up but maybe caused some imbalance? I know from back problems years ago that I have partially fused vertebrae on one side of my lower back as well as some scoliosis, which may be the cause. I'm doing gardening work 3 days per week which has been good for core strength and flexibility, but perhaps it's just a getting older thing? We'll see how rest and some shorter rides goes before tackling anything silly. I'll also be stretching a whole lot more too as well as massaging the tight muscles in my lower back.

Commiserations – I made it to Eskdalemuir, also plenty of time in hand (then rode to Gretna for the train).  Worries about coming off or bringing someone else down were upmost in my mind.

[Benny]

Interesting to read about this issue. I have been affected by it a couple of times.  I am over 70 yrs.  First time at PBP after only 350 km - riding faster and in the drops much more than I would normally be. I don’t remember any pain, just the physical exertion of trying to correct the lean and keep the bike upright.  Seeking assistance at Loudeac, I was given a back massage and told it was Lumbago. I was given a stretching exercise - lie on my back and pull my knee onto my chest.  We didn’t share much language so that was that. Rode on to sleep at Carhaix with less of a problem. Next morning rode to Brest still affected. At the medical centre a guy indicated the best solution was taping. My lower back was criss-crossed with different coloured tapes and I was told it was about sending different messages to the nerves. I rode on stopping every 10 or 20 km (ie when I noticed the bike was starting to tilt), had a stretch and got better with every km. The problem was gone by the time I left Tinteniac the next day. It occurred another time after 550km when I was very under trained – but the end was in sight (it was a 600).

[aidan.f]

Just in case you don't know, my LEL was on an upright trike. Yes I am biased but if leaning is a problem three wheels maybe a solution. FWIW I was often wobbly after dismounting at controls.

[the gang and i]

Resurrecting on old thread with a new leaning.
On the last LEL I was coming into Bernard Castle when I realised I was leaning to my left. I was completely unaware of when or how this happened. I had a great feed there and completely forgot about it. Feeling good I left and about 10k later I remembered and checked - I was leaning and I couldn't straighten up. So I packed for safety reasons and went back to BC. I felt fine and nothing was sore. The following day cycling to a train station my pal spotted that I was still leaning.
3 days later back in Dublin I rang my physio and gave him a brief description. He told me he knew what it was and to come immediately.
He put me on a bench and using his elbow for about 10 minutes had me sorted. He explained it was a rotator muscle that had gone into spasm.
Because there was no pain or indications I never looked for assistance in BC.
I can only guess that stretching exercises would help. So any thoughts on what stretching might help ?

[Ian H]

Resurrecting on old thread with a new leaning.
On the last LEL I was coming into Bernard Castle when I realised I was leaning to my left. I was completely unaware of when or how this happened. I had a great feed there and completely forgot about it. Feeling good I left and about 10k later I remembered and checked - I was leaning and I couldn't straighten up. So I packed for safety reasons and went back to BC. I felt fine and nothing was sore. The following day cycling to a train station my pal spotted that I was still leaning.
3 days later back in Dublin I rang my physio and gave him a brief description. He told me he knew what it was and to come immediately.
He put me on a bench and using his elbow for about 10 minutes had me sorted. He explained it was a rotator muscle that had gone into spasm.
Because there was no pain or indications I never looked for assistance in BC.
I can only guess that stretching exercises would help. So any thoughts on what stretching might help ?

Core strength training is the answer.

[GrahamGKD]

I have no experience of seeing riders lean on long events but I do regularly treat patients in my clinic (I am a Chiropractor and Sports and Remedial Massage Therapist) who have a side flexed posture.  I will try to explain in layman's terms what I find.  The gap between one side of their lower ribs and pelvis becomes smaller on one side, the spine becomes laterally curved, often with a secondary compensatory curve higher up to maintain a level head position.  Patients can present with or without lower back pain and some are unaware of their change in posture until family or colleagues point it out to them. 

I have a musculoskeletal bias as its the area I specialise in so I cannot comment on visual or vestibular factors.  There are multiple causes for this change in posture to occur but in my experience it happens most commonly when the quadratus lumborum muscle on one side becomes over worked, particularly if it is affected by myofascial trigger points due to chronic poor posture or regular overloading, or habitually greater weight bearing on one side of the body.  When over worked or fatigued the muscle can go into spasm or become functionally short and weak causing the side flexed posture that patients present with.  It seems possible for the same to occur during a long distance walk or 1000km plus Audax. 

Duncan.

I am very happy to report that, with a few treatments from Duncan and some follow up rehab exercises and self-massage, I managed to complete PBP with no leaning issues at all.  My spine had indeed become curved (Duncan showed me a picture of it to see for myself) but following treatment is now pretty much straight again.  One observation I found mildly amusing was that, after the initial treatment, my bike was leaning slightly in the opposite direction for a short while!

Anyhow – I am very please to have completed another of these 1000Km+ events – 3 PBPs and 1 LEL is enough for me – I will quit while I am ahead!!

On the subject of core exercises – I already do have a fairly comprehensive core routine which I have been doing regularly since my core gave out completely (you wouldn’t believe how completely) while kayaking the Devizes to Westminster Canoe Race, well over 10 years ago.