Dental records

[robgul]

I posted this at the end of November:
Dental appointments for me and my wife tomorrow . . .  receptionist rings to confirm/remind etc - OK - but then says that the dentist (owner of the business) and hygienist we have been going to for 30 years (and my wife for probably 7 or 8 years more than that) have departed - the dentist retired (at 71 - getting a bit long in the tooth  ) and the hygienist has left - and that we would be seeing xx dentist and yy hygienist.

Apparently we were not informed of the retirement for "legal reasons" - I can only assume he's flogged the business and the contract stipulated that he couldn't inform the client base as they might vote with their feet? - i.e. the new owner gets the clients by default.   OK, I can understand that if the dentist was moving but carrying on as there would be a risk of taking clients with him (although they would probably move when they found out)

Somewhat pissed off at the short notice (26 hours) . . . we have voted with our feet - partly on principle and partly the distance we travel having moved from the dentist's area about 25 years ago. We always said when he retired we'd find a dentist locally . . . .  but expected to have some notice to do that.

Our records have been requested.

Despite requesting the records, x-rays etc there has been no response - does anyone know what the rules are?  i.e. have we the right to request the records?  (we were private patients, not NHS)   

Subject to being armed with that answer the next step is to write to whichever authority deals with dentists.

[rafletcher]

See here:

https://www.theddu.com/guidance-and-advice/guides/patient-rights-and-ownership-of-records#:~:text=Patient%20records%2C%20both%20private%20and,of%20them%20free%20of%20charge.

They (the originals) do not belong to you, even as a private patient - but you are alowed to view and have copies.  In your position I'd talk to your replacement dentist and get them to request the records (which are likely electronic for the last 20 years or so if your dentist is like mine).

[sparklyfish]

That's really interesting, and explains some local intrigue we had a few years ago, when the dentist in our village did the same thing - transferred everyone over to the new guy without any notice.
If you want to gain copies of info held about you, a Subject Access Request may be the legal tool that you want. I've successfully done one using the Mind template here: https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/legal-rights/accessing-my-personal-information/how-to-ask-for-your-personal-data/

[robgul]

See here:

https://www.theddu.com/guidance-and-advice/guides/patient-rights-and-ownership-of-records#:~:text=Patient%20records%2C%20both%20private%20and,of%20them%20free%20of%20charge.

They (the originals) do not belong to you, even as a private patient - but you are alowed to view and have copies.  In your position I'd talk to your replacement dentist and get them to request the records (which are likely electronic for the last 20 years or so if your dentist is like mine).

Ah - I hadn't found that site in my searches - the info I found suggested that we could get the records.   The fallback is as you suggest to get the new dentist (when we can find one ) to ask for the records.   

The offending dentist barely had a telephone, let alone anything like a computer for appointments and all the records were in brown manilla pocket envelopes!  The receptionist had an appointment book for each dentist/hygienist and a plentiful supply of those pencils with an eraser on the end for amendments!

[rogerzilla]

I read the thread title and was worried that robgul was anticipating a horrible FIERY demise.

[PaulF]

When I switched dentists recently the old one sent me a copy of the records by email. IIRC they couldn't send directly to my new dentist even though they were part of the same group and I'd given consent.

[sojournermike]

That's really interesting, and explains some local intrigue we had a few years ago, when the dentist in our village did the same thing - transferred everyone over to the new guy without any notice.
If you want to gain copies of info held about you, a Subject Access Request may be the legal tool that you want. I've successfully done one using the Mind template here: https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/legal-rights/accessing-my-personal-information/how-to-ask-for-your-personal-data/

Sunject Access Requests can be quite a powerful tool - they are actually a right pain to deal with as you have pretty strict time limits to comply and (most) organisations do have have sufficient marginal staffing capacity to do so without failing in the business as usual processes. Make sure you understand the timescales before making the request and then enforce.

[barakta]

Yep, under the Data Protection Act, you now make a "right of access request" (new name for a "subject access request") and provide a copy of some photo ID, a copy of proof of address and the organisation has 30 calendar days to respond to you.

I would request everything they hold about you.

If they don't request an extension (of up to 30 calendar days) or respond in 30 calendar days then they can be reported to the Information Commissioner's Office (ICO) although ICO are very slow to give any fucks at all.

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

I had that situation 33 years ago.  The new dentist still has my original records in little manila envelopes.  I haven't switched though.

[hellymedic]

No dentist I have visited in the last 60 years has ever sought or expected old records, as far as I'm aware.
They've always started anew. I have had:
NHS dentist in Harlow 1963-4
NHS dentist in Leicester 1964-8
3 NHS dentists in London from 1968-76.
Charles Clifford Dental Hospital, Sheffield, 1978-82
NHS dentist in West Midlands 1984
Leeds Dental Hospital 1985
2 private dental practices in London since 1992.
 

[robgul]

No dentist I have visited in the last 60 years has ever sought or expected old records, as far as I'm aware.
They've always started anew. I have had:
NHS dentist in Harlow 1963-4
NHS dentist in Leicester 1964-8
3 NHS dentists in London from 1968-76.
Charles Clifford Dental Hospital, Sheffield, 1978-82
NHS dentist in West Midlands 1984
Leeds Dental Hospital 1985
2 private dental practices in London since 1992.

We obviously expect the new dentist to do a complete check-up etc when we join -  my pursuit of the records is, in part, just piss off the old dentist business for the very shoddy customer service we experienced. 

We worked out that I had been going to the dentist (now retired) since November 1990 and my wife from about May 1981 - the courtesy of either a "thanks I'm retiring" from the old bloke, or a "welcome to the regime" from the new people wouldn't have gone amiss (the old dentist was quick enough to write a gushing letter when he opted out of the NHS to go 100% private)

[alfapete]

You are definitely entitled to have a copy of your records and radiographs, though the dentist is permitted to make a reasonable admin charge for photocopying etc. Copying non-digital radiographs is a bit more difficult but your new dentist could ask for sight of them from your old practice, (even though you haven't actually seen the new one yet).
I'm retired now but I can barely think of more than one instance in 35 years where I wanted to see someone's previous records - we start with a blank sheet of paper each time and it's easier that way. Perhaps reviewing radiographs might be a little more valuable in a small number of cases.

Regarding notice of the change: the new practice owner would have stipulated that the retiring dentist should not inform the patients in advance (standard Sale and Purchase Agreement) to maintain the value of the goodwill. Chances are the staff only found out on the day the contracts were signed. The more notice the patient has the more time they have to seek out a different dentist somewhere else eg on recommendation from friends, as they have no particular reason to stay 'loyal' to the location if their favourite old chap/chapesse is no longer there.

I wouldn't recommend taking it out on the new chap - he might be brilliant and you'd be cutting off your nose to spite your face. Give him one chance, at least. Your unhappiness is not his fault, it's just the way things are done to protect his interests - in the sale of a Practice the value is far and away the most important thing for both sides. (The patients are a side issue, though keeping them happy becomes more important for the new guy as time goes by). Which is where my successor struggles, but that's a different story

[Wowbagger]

We had a similar experience with our optician just over a year ago. The practice had been sold and the new people had kept a slightly amended name - Rose Opticians, as opposed to Harvey Rose Opticians. Harvey Rose was the original owner but it was his son Paul whom we saw. The company had a very good name locally, which was why we ended up there. We turned up expecting to see Paul only to be told that he had decided during the pandemic to retire and sell the business.

I was slightly miffed at the first appointment to discover that we were dealing with a load of unknowns, but we went back again fairly recently and saw the same optician as last time, a fairly young woman, but I think she is pretty good, and so intend to stick with them.  At least the place is only a mile or so away.

[barakta]

I don't think there is a charge permitted on records, and hasn't been since the GDPR kicked in in 2018. Not sure how physical radiograms would work, all my hospital X-rays and scans are digital (or digitised by the data protection team) and sent on a CD or download thinger.

I've managed to extract medical records from most of my hospitals. A necessary evil in 1) applying for PIP with a weird pair of syndromes (I needed evidence of stuff) and 2) trying to make sense of some of my medical history that had got garbled (I found proof from a May 1980 letter that my shoulder has indeed always dislocated and wasn't a "must have happened in later-childhood" thing as randomly claimed by a consultant once).

Also that my mother was very polite and deferent to hospital docs in the 1980s... She's not as polite these days

[Regulator]

As barakta says, dental records are classed as medical records.  You are entitled to a copy and no charge can be made for supplying it.  You do not have to quote the DPA/GDPR (although it helps to do so).

Failure to supply a copy of your records within 30 days of your request should be reported to the Information Commissioner's Office.

You should have been informed of the sale/transfer of the practice and consent obtained for transfer of your records (this could have been done pre-emptively in a Privacy Notice).  Failure to do so is a breach of the DPA/GDPR and can be reported to the ICO.

[robgul]

As barakta says, dental records are classed as medical records.  You are entitled to a copy and no charge can be made for supplying it.  You do not have to quote the DPA/GDPR (although it helps to do so).

Failure to supply a copy of your records within 30 days of your request should be reported to the Information Commissioner's Office.

You should have been informed of the sale/transfer of the practice and consent obtained for transfer of your records (this could have been done pre-emptively in a Privacy Notice).  Failure to do so is a breach of the DPA/GDPR and can be reported to the ICO.

That third paragraph is interesting - thinking back to when my optician retired and sold the business I got a request for consent for the new owner (although, again for reasons of history and having moved some distance away I moved to a local optician)

[alfapete]

You should have been informed of the sale/transfer of the practice and consent obtained for transfer of your records (this could have been done pre-emptively in a Privacy Notice).  Failure to do so is a breach of the DPA/GDPR and can be reported to the ICO.

Hmm. My solicitors were dental specialists and were pretty hot on this kind of thing. There will be some sort of get out, I would imagine. But none of this helps robgul much.

[Regulator]

You should have been informed of the sale/transfer of the practice and consent obtained for transfer of your records (this could have been done pre-emptively in a Privacy Notice).  Failure to do so is a breach of the DPA/GDPR and can be reported to the ICO.

Hmm. My solicitors were dental specialists and were pretty hot on this kind of thing. There will be some sort of get out, I would imagine. But none of this helps robgul much.

I deal with GDPR/DPA issues for a major hospital group...