Author Topic: overlay underfloor heating  (Read 685 times)

overlay underfloor heating
« on: 09 February, 2024, 10:20:22 am »
We will be moving back into our own house in the next 6-9 months and i am thinking about the upgrades I want to do before we move back in.

Our house was originally built in 1928 on a solid concrete plinth and the hall faces North with a large window.  The hall is the coldest room in the house and I would love to improve the heating.

I have seen a few adverts for overlay heating.  I wondered about combining wet overlay underfloor heating with a heat pump to give a constant low grade heating for the area.  Has anybody any experience of these systems?

Thank you

HTFB

  • The Monkey and the Plywood Violin
Re: overlay underfloor heating
« Reply #1 on: 09 February, 2024, 11:48:49 am »
We had overlay UFH, in the sense of pipes laid in grooved panels on top of concrete, in our previous flat, although that was with a gas boiler on a top floor rather than having concrete touching the ground. In the new house we were looking at the same thing for our ASHP, but we were in the end able to dig up the screed.

The panels give less good thermal contact than laying the pipes in screed, so you need a slightly higher flow temperature, or more closely-spaced pipes, to get the same heat output - but the spacing is determined by the panel grooves. So the higher temperature decreases the efficiency of your heat pump a bit.

There are conflicting views (between, at least, us and our Heat Geek installer) about the role of insulation between solid floors and the UFH. I think you want to minimise heat loss into the ground; he thinks you want to use the ground as a huge thermal mass to stabilise the internal temperature. It probably depends on how wet the subsoil under the house is, and on your ground floor's perimeter:area ratio.

Anyway, if you are installing a wet heat pump just as a secondary heater for just this one part of your house, it will be insanely expensive. You would be much better off replacing the hall radiator with a modern high-surface-area one, or a fan coil unit, just to put more of your boiler's output into the that space. And then if you change the whole house to a heat pump later the hall at least would be ready for it. Or insulate, or even just plug in an electric heater. You need to consume something like 25,000kWh of electric heat before a heat pump pays back, even with subsidy.
Not especially helpful or mature

Re: overlay underfloor heating
« Reply #2 on: 09 February, 2024, 11:52:53 am »
I'd be in agreement with your installer. Use the slab as a heat sink/reservoir, just like when you bury pipes in the screed. Otherwise it's just an under-carpet / board radiator.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

HTFB

  • The Monkey and the Plywood Violin
Re: overlay underfloor heating
« Reply #3 on: 09 February, 2024, 12:14:34 pm »
I'd be in agreement with your installer. Use the slab as a heat sink/reservoir, just like when you bury pipes in the screed. Otherwise it's just an under-carpet / board radiator.
With solid walls, you would prefer to apply external insulation, and keep the wall's thermal mass, to using internal insulation. But you do make your home warmer by insulating internally: it always reduces heat loss on average. Similarly for floors. The question is whether the increased variability of indoor temperature and loss of capacity to absorb overheating in summer is worth the gains in heat retention.

The standard methodology for calculating solid floor heat loss doesn't give accurate results for UFH as the source of heat is the wrong side of the floor's surface resistivity.
Not especially helpful or mature

Re: overlay underfloor heating
« Reply #4 on: 09 February, 2024, 12:33:20 pm »
We had overlay UFH, in the sense of pipes laid in grooved panels on top of concrete, in our previous flat, although that was with a gas boiler on a top floor rather than having concrete touching the ground. In the new house we were looking at the same thing for our ASHP, but we were in the end able to dig up the screed.

The panels give less good thermal contact than laying the pipes in screed, so you need a slightly higher flow temperature, or more closely-spaced pipes, to get the same heat output - but the spacing is determined by the panel grooves. So the higher temperature decreases the efficiency of your heat pump a bit.

There are conflicting views (between, at least, us and our Heat Geek installer) about the role of insulation between solid floors and the UFH. I think you want to minimise heat loss into the ground; he thinks you want to use the ground as a huge thermal mass to stabilise the internal temperature. It probably depends on how wet the subsoil under the house is, and on your ground floor's perimeter:area ratio.

Anyway, if you are installing a wet heat pump just as a secondary heater for just this one part of your house, it will be insanely expensive. You would be much better off replacing the hall radiator with a modern high-surface-area one, or a fan coil unit, just to put more of your boiler's output into the that space. And then if you change the whole house to a heat pump later the hall at least would be ready for it. Or insulate, or even just plug in an electric heater. You need to consume something like 25,000kWh of electric heat before a heat pump pays back, even with subsidy.


If I go down this route I would do the hall, lounge and office.  The hall is 30 feet by 12 and the lounge is 25 by 15 so a substantial area.  Add in the office as well which is small and i could detach the kitchen existing underfloor from the gas central heating and add to the heat pump.
Essentially I would be heating the whole house with the heat pump.

Re: overlay underfloor heating
« Reply #5 on: 09 February, 2024, 01:14:56 pm »
I'd be in agreement with your installer. Use the slab as a heat sink/reservoir, just like when you bury pipes in the screed. Otherwise it's just an under-carpet / board radiator.

We had a slab set up to be a thermal store in an extension.
It had 8" of styrofoam under it.

If you are pumping heat into a concrete slab that is laid on hardcore/soil, you are wasting a lot of heat that goes into the ground.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: overlay underfloor heating
« Reply #6 on: 14 February, 2024, 03:31:54 pm »
I'd be in agreement with your installer. Use the slab as a heat sink/reservoir, just like when you bury pipes in the screed. Otherwise it's just an under-carpet / board radiator.

We had a slab set up to be a thermal store in an extension.
It had 8" of styrofoam under it.

If you are pumping heat into a concrete slab that is laid on hardcore/soil, you are wasting a lot of heat that goes into the ground.

For a new build, it's pretty clear that you should be insulating under the slab.

In practice, my MiL had UFH retrofitted over the existing slab ('70s, so I very much doubt had any insulation) with the thinnest screed she could get away with (low ceilings), and has been very happy with the result and content with her electricity bills. She did get external wall insulation done at the same time, mind.