Author Topic: Breaking the fifth wall?  (Read 2746 times)

Cudzoziemiec

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Breaking the fifth wall?
« on: 17 May, 2021, 08:41:57 pm »
If actors acknowledging the presence of the audience is known as breaking the fourth wall, what is the phrase to describe their acknowledgment of or interaction with the technical staff: sound, camera, lighting and so on? For instance, when we see actors remove their previously hidden microphones or hear them address comments to stage crew? There are obviously more opportunities for this in cinema and TV than on stage, but even on stage there are lighting and other technicians, and even the set itself. Is there even a term for this or maybe it's not distinguished from 'breaking the fourth wall'?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Breaking the fifth wall?
« Reply #1 on: 17 May, 2021, 10:53:50 pm »
Good question.  Also the related phenomenon where the technical crew are in fact actors (see mokumentaries passim, or Anneka Rice's long-suffering sound man).

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Breaking the fifth wall?
« Reply #2 on: 17 May, 2021, 11:41:24 pm »
Good question.  Also the related phenomenon where the technical crew are in fact actors (see mokumentaries passim, or Anneka Rice's long-suffering sound man).

 :o ???


Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
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Re: Breaking the fifth wall?
« Reply #3 on: 17 May, 2021, 11:59:40 pm »
Good question.  Also the related phenomenon where the technical crew are in fact actors (see mokumentaries passim, or Anneka Rice's long-suffering sound man).

Does that include Gerry, Damien Day's frequently-injured-in-the-line-of-duty cameraman in Drop The Dead Donkey?
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Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Breaking the fifth wall?
« Reply #4 on: 18 May, 2021, 12:01:54 am »
Good question.  Also the related phenomenon where the technical crew are in fact actors (see mokumentaries passim, or Anneka Rice's long-suffering sound man).

 :o ???

Dave The Sound Man was a recurring character in the 1990s logistical comedy series Challenge Anneka.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Breaking the fifth wall?
« Reply #5 on: 18 May, 2021, 12:02:56 am »
Good question.  Also the related phenomenon where the technical crew are in fact actors (see mokumentaries passim, or Anneka Rice's long-suffering sound man).

Does that include Gerry, Damien Day's frequently-injured-in-the-line-of-duty cameraman in Drop The Dead Donkey?

I'm still upset they stopped making that.

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
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Re: Breaking the fifth wall?
« Reply #6 on: 18 May, 2021, 12:06:15 am »
Good question.  Also the related phenomenon where the technical crew are in fact actors (see mokumentaries passim, or Anneka Rice's long-suffering sound man).

Does that include Gerry, Damien Day's frequently-injured-in-the-line-of-duty cameraman in Drop The Dead Donkey?

I'm still upset they stopped making that.

So am I, and not just because I was madly in lurrve with Joy ;)
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

Re: Breaking the fifth wall?
« Reply #7 on: 18 May, 2021, 08:58:19 am »
If actors acknowledging the presence of the audience is known as breaking the fourth wall, what is the phrase to describe their acknowledgment of or interaction with the technical staff: sound, camera, lighting and so on?


Dunno, but it happens regularly on "Mrs Browns Boys" with Brendan O'Carroll proffering their mobile to the cameraman "It's for you".
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Mr Larrington

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Re: Breaking the fifth wall?
« Reply #8 on: 18 May, 2021, 10:09:44 am »
If actors acknowledging the presence of the audience is known as breaking the fourth wall, what is the phrase to describe their acknowledgment of or interaction with the technical staff: sound, camera, lighting and so on?


Dunno, but it happens regularly on "Mrs Browns Boys" with Brendan O'Carroll proffering their mobile to the cameraman "It's for you".

It disturbs me that you possess this information.
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Breaking the fifth wall?
« Reply #9 on: 18 May, 2021, 11:03:02 am »
I've never seen Mr's Brown's Boys, but that's the kind of thing I'm thinking of. It happens a lot in the last few seasons of The Office, where we see the characters removing their (hidden) microphones after their narration to camera scenes, and later a boom man, presumably an actor, gets involved in the plot. And The Office is mentioned in the Wikipedia article on Breaking the fourth wall, but not quite in those terms:
Quote
Characters in The Office directly speak to the audience during interview sequences. Characters are removed from the rest of the group to speak and reflect on their experiences. The person behind the camera, the interviewer, is also referenced when the characters gaze and speak straight to the camera. The interviewer, however, is only indirectly spoken to and remains hidden.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_wall#On_television

The scenes I'm thinking of go a bit beyond that. But I suppose it depends how you think of "breaking the fourth wall": whether it's "acknowledging the existence of the audience" or "acknowledging that it's a show".
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: Breaking the fifth wall?
« Reply #10 on: 18 May, 2021, 01:25:56 pm »
And then there's the horrible device John Fowles used at the end of The French Lieutenant's Woman, where he provided three endings and told his readers they could suit themselves.  If the bugger's arse had been available I'd have kicked it.
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citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Breaking the fifth wall?
« Reply #11 on: 18 May, 2021, 04:19:43 pm »
If actors acknowledging the presence of the audience is known as breaking the fourth wall, what is the phrase to describe their acknowledgment of or interaction with the technical staff: sound, camera, lighting and so on? For instance, when we see actors remove their previously hidden microphones or hear them address comments to stage crew? There are obviously more opportunities for this in cinema and TV than on stage, but even on stage there are lighting and other technicians, and even the set itself. Is there even a term for this or maybe it's not distinguished from 'breaking the fourth wall'?

I'm not sure I would distinguish this from breaking the fourth wall, since it's all about the artifice of theatre - any occasion where they shatter that illusion in any way is much the same whether they are addressing the audience or stage crew. However...

The concept of the fourth wall assumes a traditional proscenium arch, the fourth wall being the invisible one between the players and the audience. So if the players start addressing non-players off to the side of the stage, then maybe that's breaking the first/second/third wall?

In any case, I'm not a theatre historian but I imagine the fourth wall is a relatively recent concept anyway, and wouldn't have made sense to someone like Shakespeare.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Breaking the fifth wall?
« Reply #12 on: 18 May, 2021, 04:58:04 pm »
Breaking the wings?  :D But that again (as any number or position of walls) assumes a conventional stage, while the phrase has gone beyond that, as you note.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Breaking the fifth wall?
« Reply #13 on: 18 May, 2021, 05:26:19 pm »
I guess there are several layers to that fourth wall. Most times (e.g. Urquhart / Underwood addressing camera in House of Cards), it is of course not ~really~ breaking the fourth wall, as it remains scripted and intentional.

Rarely you may get a genuine shattering of that wall, for example when an actor admonishes someone in the audience for letting their phone go off.

And for the best example of walls breaking everywhere, you can beat Mel Brooks

https://youtu.be/w9B_9YeVhsw


citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Breaking the fifth wall?
« Reply #14 on: 18 May, 2021, 05:44:14 pm »
I guess there are several layers to that fourth wall. Most times (e.g. Urquhart / Underwood addressing camera in House of Cards), it is of course not ~really~ breaking the fourth wall, as it remains scripted and intentional.

Hmmm, not sure I agree with that... but I take your point that there's a difference between that and dealing with hecklers/generally annoying audience members.

Anyway, I looked it up and I was right about it being a relatively recent concept - only goes back to the 19th century.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Breaking the fifth wall?
« Reply #15 on: 18 May, 2021, 06:10:37 pm »
I’m surprised it’s considered so recent. I’d have thought Jacques’ “All the world’s a stage” soliloquy in As You Like It possesses much the same idea. Not only is a soliloquy virtually an address to the audience, the metaphor here is asking us as an audience to consider the actor addressing us as much as the character portrayed.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Breaking the fifth wall?
« Reply #16 on: 18 May, 2021, 06:40:05 pm »
I’m surprised it’s considered so recent. I’d have thought Jacques’ “All the world’s a stage” soliloquy in As You Like It possesses much the same idea. Not only is a soliloquy virtually an address to the audience, the metaphor here is asking us as an audience to consider the actor addressing us as much as the character portrayed.

The point is there was no fourth wall to break in those days. The fourth wall is a construct of naturalism (and 'box' sets), which only became a thing much later.

Probably my favourite example of breaking the fourth wall is Rosencrantz And Guildenstern Are Dead. It's, like, totally meta, man.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Breaking the fifth wall?
« Reply #17 on: 18 May, 2021, 06:42:45 pm »
I suppose you can't break the fourth wall until you pretend it exists.
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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Breaking the fifth wall?
« Reply #18 on: 18 May, 2021, 06:43:25 pm »
Dealing with hecklers is something completely different. I'm thinking of scripted events.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Breaking the fifth wall?
« Reply #19 on: 18 May, 2021, 06:43:53 pm »
I suppose you can't break the fourth wall until you pretend it exists.

Exactly.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Breaking the fifth wall?
« Reply #20 on: 18 May, 2021, 06:45:53 pm »
Dealing with hecklers is something completely different. I'm thinking of scripted events.

There's another Tom Stoppard play that does this very well, in which the stage hands become part of the on-stage action, rather than just furtively moving stuff about between scenes and pretending you can't see them. But I can't remember which play it is... might be Dogg's Hamlet.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Mr Larrington

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Re: Breaking the fifth wall?
« Reply #21 on: 18 May, 2021, 06:48:58 pm »
I guess there are several layers to that fourth wall. Most times (e.g. Urquhart / Underwood addressing camera in House of Cards), it is of course not ~really~ breaking the fourth wall, as it remains scripted and intentional.

You might very well think that…
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IanN

  • Voon
Re: Breaking the fifth wall?
« Reply #22 on: 18 May, 2021, 07:09:04 pm »
Quote
Characters in The Office directly speak to the audience during interview sequences. Characters are removed from the rest of the group to speak and reflect on their experiences.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_wall#On_television

In the opposite direction to the 'knowing' talking to camera, a load of current teen programmes (dance academy and several others that sound the same to grumpy dad in the corner <rant redacted>) have interviews where the characters discuss how they feel about whatever just happened in the story.  I don't know what you call that. Pseudo-reality TV? 


Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Breaking the fifth wall?
« Reply #23 on: 18 May, 2021, 07:53:53 pm »
Quote
Characters in The Office directly speak to the audience during interview sequences. Characters are removed from the rest of the group to speak and reflect on their experiences.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_wall#On_television

In the opposite direction to the 'knowing' talking to camera, a load of current teen programmes (dance academy and several others that sound the same to grumpy dad in the corner <rant redacted>) have interviews where the characters discuss how they feel about whatever just happened in the story.  I don't know what you call that. Pseudo-reality TV?
Monologue? Soliloquy? (I'm afraid I'm never quite sure about the difference between those two.) It's a sort of narration in effect.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Breaking the fifth wall?
« Reply #24 on: 18 May, 2021, 08:09:52 pm »
Good question.  Also the related phenomenon where the technical crew are in fact actors (see mokumentaries passim, or Anneka Rice's long-suffering sound man).

 :o ???

Dave The Sound Man was a recurring character in the 1990s logistical comedy series Challenge Anneka.

Yeah, I remember it well.
I just always believed Dave really was the sound man.