Author Topic: Super-Twat  (Read 897192 times)

orraloon

  • I'm trying Ringo, I'm trying real hard
Re: Super-Twat
« Reply #5350 on: 04 February, 2022, 08:20:43 pm »
Ah such a persecuted minority.

Only time I've been struck by an object thrown from a van at me on my bike, can brick or whatever, couldn't find it when site revisited with polis, missed my head, struck on chest... pikey.  Confirmed by vehicle registration post 999 call.

Only time my vehicle has had window smashed to steal a backpack visible on back seat, some PPE kit... pikey.

Group descend on local open space, trash it, junk everywhere, destroy local kids' art installation... pikeys.  Ejected under blue lights plus helicopter.

PC Andrew Harper....

But yeah, Jimmy Carr is a real problem.


ian

Re: Super-Twat
« Reply #5351 on: 04 February, 2022, 09:55:32 pm »
I'll stick my neck out, but for obvious reasons, we shouldn't judge an entire group by the actions of some. I've never done any of those things you say. Things go around, people have pretty low expectations when you come from a certain background. Sometimes we create our own monsters.

There's a significant element of stage persona in the entire Jimmy Carr thing, as a comedian you need your thing. He's got his thing. It might not be everyone's thing, but he's not the first comedian to use shock to get a laugh. And well, it's a show called His Dark Materials, so what the fuck are people expecting. It's also very, very funny.

Also deliberately editing the clip so it looks like they're laughing at that rather than the reaction, which completely misses the point. Are people really that keen to demonstrate how offended they are?

Well, obviously, of course. We all have the right to be offended, but we don't have the right not to be offended. And if you think otherwise, fuck you.

Re: Super-Twat
« Reply #5352 on: 04 February, 2022, 10:24:34 pm »
I had an accident many moons ago near a travellers site.  The folk there were kind and warm, helpful and generous.  They looked after me until the ambulance arrived and when I returned next day for my bike they had cleaned it up.  They showed me great kindness and humanity. 

Carr on the other hand isn't a traveller, is he?

Beardy

  • Shedist
Re: Super-Twat
« Reply #5353 on: 05 February, 2022, 12:43:31 am »
Out groups always make good targets for humour. It helps maintain them as out groups. The thing is, people are arses or they’re not, and you can find both sorts across all humanity. Be nice to one another; it’s the only thing that really makes sense when you actually think about it.
For every complex problem in the world, there is a simple and easily understood solution that’s wrong.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Super-Twat
« Reply #5354 on: 05 February, 2022, 08:48:00 am »
There's a significant element of stage persona in the entire Jimmy Carr thing, as a comedian you need your thing. He's got his thing. It might not be everyone's thing, but he's not the first comedian to use shock to get a laugh.

That’s the thing, isn’t it - it’s not even original.

I don’t for a second imagine he believes what he said literally, but I don’t find it very funny either.

But I’m not Jimmy Carr’s audience and I would have remained blissfully unaware of this if not for the social media outrage. I’m not going to lose any sleep over it.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Super-Twat
« Reply #5355 on: 05 February, 2022, 12:43:18 pm »
Edited due to faulty memory.

Cycling in the Camargue with others of this parish a few years back we unexpectedly came across an ex concentration camp site, basically in the middle of nowhere, The camp was established by the Vichy regime to hold Romani. Many died due to malnutrition and poor treatment. More were killed by American bombers thinking it was a military camp. No humour was involved.
Camp de Saliers                     

 700 Roms y furent internés entre 1942 et 1944, dont beaucoup sont morts de faim, maladie, froid ou mauvais traitements. Le camp a complètement disparu. Un mémorial a cependant été dressé dans la ville d'Arles le 2 février 2006 en présence du sous-préfet d'Arles, de Claude Vulpian, maire de Saint-Martin-de-Crau, représentant le président du Conseil général, de Michel Vauzelle président du Conseil régional, d'Hervé Schiavetti maire d'Arles et Nicolas Koukas adjoint au maire, adjoint au Devoir de mémoire, en présence également du député maire du XVe arrondissement de Marseille, Frédéric Dutoit et de la cheville ouvrière de tout ce travail, Georges Carlevan.
Get a bicycle. You will never regret it, if you live- Mark Twain

Re: Super-Twat
« Reply #5356 on: 05 February, 2022, 03:25:01 pm »
Some years ago, I helped out at a gym with the kid's classes.
There were a substantial number of parents who were an absolute pain. Problems ranged from them always being 10min to an hour late picking up their kid, to being abusive to coaches, insisting that their little darling is the next Simone Biel.

Some of the parents were traditional travelers who lived on one or the other of the York travelers camps.

They were always on time or early to pick up their children.
They were always polite to the coaches, and interested in how their children were doing (and if they behaved).
There children were always polite and attentive.

Sure, there are bad apples in any barrel. If there is something that easy distinguishes the apple (maybe it is a green one in a barrel of reds, or it has a different stalk), then people will say "Those green ones are all bad apples!".
<i>Marmite slave</i>

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: Super-Twat
« Reply #5357 on: 05 February, 2022, 04:03:43 pm »
Carr was simply making people confront their own prejudices.  A lot of people will choose not to understand that, or maybe be too thick to. And folk who enjoy taking scalps will howl joyously for his.  I can't stand his asinine laugh, but I hope he rides it out.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

Re: Super-Twat
« Reply #5358 on: 05 February, 2022, 04:14:27 pm »
The problem is with "making people confront their own prejudices" is that if you do it in certain ways in reality you simply reinforce them.  Carr is in danger of becoming the next Jim Davidson with such an approach in my opinion.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Super-Twat
« Reply #5359 on: 05 February, 2022, 04:41:47 pm »
The problem is with "making people confront their own prejudices" is that if you do it in certain ways in reality you simply reinforce them.

That was always the problem with Alf Garnett - too many people laughed with him, not at him.

As for Jimmy Carr, I find myself feeling more sympathy towards him now that Nadine Dorries has piped up. Bit rich of her to criticise others for being offensive.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: Super-Twat
« Reply #5360 on: 05 February, 2022, 05:22:59 pm »
Points for Netflix: the show is still there.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: Super-Twat
« Reply #5361 on: 05 February, 2022, 06:01:13 pm »
There's a wider context here. Being racist against Travellers, Roma and Gypsies is utterly normal and socially acceptable in many places. Our government is increasingly legislating against nomadic people and making it harder and more illegal for them to live their nomadic lives - without any recognition of the decades of refusing to provide safe and suitable places for them to stop around the country.

I'm always surprised that what would be unacceptable hate against any other group is accepted, normalised, agreed with and laughed at when it comes to Gypsy/Roma/Traveller people.

ian

Re: Super-Twat
« Reply #5362 on: 05 February, 2022, 06:51:38 pm »
Yes, but like most people I expect you'd be an entire hypocrite when it comes to having a traveller site nearby, everyone starts writing the letters then (and not entirely without good reason). And yes, of course, they have a right to an education, but really they'd be very disruptive in my child's school, of course. Etc. Even settled travellers don't like their mobile brethren that much. Ultimately it's a problematic lifestyle, there's very little legitimate employment to be gained, there are poor education outcomes for the children.

I find Jimmy Carr amusing, but he does attract the pile-ons often purposefully (and his heckler put-downs are worth the entrance price), horses for courses when it comes to comedy. Laughs have to be at the expense of something.

But that's my thing, I'm tired of being told by the left or the right – anyone with a self-righteous ideology – what I can watch or read. I'm tired of hearing how offended they are by whatever it is that is offending them. I'm tired of their campaigns to ban or remove things that seem unable to simply not expose themselves to. I don't fucking care what they think. I wish the utter thundercunts on either side would take their offence, wrap it around a baseball bat, and shove it up their arses. That, at least, might be entertainingly offensive.

Re: Super-Twat
« Reply #5363 on: 05 February, 2022, 09:22:57 pm »
Maybe you are lucky that you aren't a target.

ian

Re: Super-Twat
« Reply #5364 on: 05 February, 2022, 09:27:08 pm »
What, of the joke? I seem to be in the minority that had seen the show in question. The audience is the target. It's a bait and switch. Watch it and tell me otherwise.

Re: Super-Twat
« Reply #5365 on: 06 February, 2022, 06:49:36 am »
No, a target of the jokes to which some people object,  who you then label 'cunts'.

You see Carr's joke is more disingenuous than you make out. Yes, it purports to be educational pointing out that nobody remembers the non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust but then carries on with the joke, this time making Jehovahs Witnesses the target with references to having a shower.  Is it making light of their deaths? Yes. Is it funny?  Well, I laughed, but then I don't have any relatives who were murdered and then incinerated, and I have an amoral sense of humour.

Where are we left at the end of the joke? That hundreds of thousands of gypsies were murdered but that is OK, because they are a social nuisance. Did it do anything to shatter prejudice or did covertly reinforce it? Equally, would you have been comfortable with the Jews being the butt of the joke, because prejudice against them is justified? If not, why not? It is ironic after all, bait and switch, as you say.

There are two elements that are starkly missing from this joke. That the oppressors evil is condemned, and that the humanity of the victims is highlighted.  But the Jehovahs are portrayed as fools, so stupid that they blindly walk into a concentration camp, easily outwitted by the concentration camp guards who humorously trick them.

Har de fucking ha.

Re: Super-Twat
« Reply #5366 on: 06 February, 2022, 06:37:20 pm »
Ah such a persecuted minority.

Only time I've been struck by an object thrown from a van at me on my bike, can brick or whatever, couldn't find it when site revisited with polis, missed my head, struck on chest... pikey.  Confirmed by vehicle registration post 999 call.

Only time my vehicle has had window smashed to steal a backpack visible on back seat, some PPE kit... pikey.

Group descend on local open space, trash it, junk everywhere, destroy local kids' art installation... pikeys.  Ejected under blue lights plus helicopter.

PC Andrew Harper....

But yeah, Jimmy Carr is a real problem.

You know very well “pikeys” aren’t necessarily Roma. And certainly the Roma of the Holocaust weren’t.

I understand what Ian’s position is, but the fact that Carr is a comedian, out for laughs, undermines the “the jokes on them” approach. He’s out for laughs, and he got them.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

ian

Re: Super-Twat
« Reply #5367 on: 07 February, 2022, 09:41:00 am »
No, they're cunts (technically thundercunts) for deliberately manufacturing their own offence and then shouting about just how offended they are. Fair enough, if you are genuinely offended, that's your right. But for people who haven't seen it (and will go to great lengths to explain how much they never found him funny anyway and won't be seeing it), and for whoever edited the clip deliberately to remove the awkward gap at the end. It's a bait and switch, a standard of stand-up. Bad taste, of course, but that really was the unambiguous point of the show. Censorship should start with yourself.

I'm curious about the motivations, it doesn't seem that any of the complainers actually cares about travellers, and I know you don't want them parked up next door – no one here does. That's a problem, of course, that's difficult to solve. I don't even think Carr really intended that sort of solution, however.

(And indeed, there's no relationship between Roma and UK travellers, who at the most have Irish heritage.)

Re: Super-Twat
« Reply #5368 on: 07 February, 2022, 09:50:21 am »
There is, apparently, a significant Roma population in the UK (2013)

https://repository.uel.ac.uk/download/c523bfd9d3c8f848d3f53a4fd9abee6047ce4f6382845608587f2e11a660ff53/350493/ERS%20Roma%20comparative%20AEB%20roma%20comparative%20revised_after_Editors_28_July_FINAL.pdf

In the 2011 Census, 730 people recorded themselves as Roma through the ethnic group write-in options. The University of Salford estimates that the Roma population living in England and Wales was 194,000 in 2012.
Get a bicycle. You will never regret it, if you live- Mark Twain

Re: Super-Twat
« Reply #5369 on: 07 February, 2022, 05:04:08 pm »
No, they're cunts (technically thundercunts) for deliberately manufacturing their own offence and then shouting about just how offended they are. Fair enough, if you are genuinely offended, that's your right. But for people who haven't seen it (and will go to great lengths to explain how much they never found him funny anyway and won't be seeing it), and for whoever edited the clip deliberately to remove the awkward gap at the end. It's a bait and switch, a standard of stand-up. Bad taste, of course, but that really was the unambiguous point of the show. Censorship should start with yourself.

I'm curious about the motivations, it doesn't seem that any of the complainers actually cares about travellers, and I know you don't want them parked up next door – no one here does. That's a problem, of course, that's difficult to solve. I don't even think Carr really intended that sort of solution, however.

(And indeed, there's no relationship between Roma and UK travellers, who at the most have Irish heritage.)

This is really just a paraphrasing of a post you've already made.

I note that you make repeated reference to people 'taking offence', and indeed accuse them of 'manufacturing their offence', in order that they have something to shout about, and that by implication their 'offence' is in bad faith.*

This is where you, as do all culture warriors, go wrong. You assume people are offended.

They may be, but it is just as likely that they are not, and that their response is not the emotional response of a headless chicken, but a rational response contextualised by a knowledge of history. In other words, it may be possible to think that the mass dissemination of Carr's joke is a very bad idea, whilst not finding it personally offensive.

I am not offended by prolific use of the 'N word'. Why would I be? It affects me not in the slightest way. But, I object to its usage because I think it is a very bad idea, and very harmful. Real harm, not just offence.

Equally, I would not welcome a traveller camp next to me any more than I would take up their offers to trim my hedge or fix a broken roof tile I didn't know about.  But that doesn't mean that I welcome jokes that risk further alienating them from settled society.

*FWIW I think Carr's joke was in bad faith. The caveat he gives that it was educational was merely an attempt at justifying a joke based on racism. (Gervase tries this trick too.) Carr then goes on to portray the JW as gullible fools easily tricked by German guards.  These were men, women and children gassed to death, shot, buried in lime pits or incinerated in crematoria.  Where is the recognition of their humanity?

Re: Super-Twat
« Reply #5370 on: 07 February, 2022, 05:28:16 pm »
I gained a lot of value from reading "Why I'm no longer talking to white people about race".

The experiences in that book seem to apply here.

<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Super-Twat
« Reply #5371 on: 07 February, 2022, 05:35:58 pm »
Presumably this gypsy is manufacturing his offence?

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/andrew-castle/head-gypsy-jimmy-carr-holocaust-roma-traveller-joke-struck-fear/

The Traveller Movement also don't seem to be welcoming Jimmy Carr's efforts at education the nation about their suffering:

https://twitter.com/GypsyTravellerM/status/1489644064609910786?s=20&t=Bfw_5B3xfUflQdiiivbdsA


Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: Super-Twat
« Reply #5372 on: 07 February, 2022, 05:42:47 pm »
Is that the same Andrew Castle who was accused of “creepy sexism” while colemantating at Wmbldn in 2016?
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

ian

Re: Super-Twat
« Reply #5373 on: 07 February, 2022, 06:03:38 pm »
You know, it might have been bad taste, but it was a bait and switch, so there's little point arguing about a joke that everyone else seems determined to interpret as something else. I've seen the show, which I expect is more than most of the critics, and well, it's intentionally bad taste.

As to manufacturing offence, the only version of the clip I've seen deliberately removes the last few seconds, so you get the bait but not the switch. That seems disingenuous to say the least.

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: Super-Twat
« Reply #5374 on: 08 February, 2022, 12:01:14 pm »
Seems Carr has a history of anti-GRT jokes going back more than fifteen years, as well as a general air of smugness that makes me want to punch him.
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime