Super-Twat

[Hot Flatus]

Tongue in cheek. You know me   

I haven't got it in for JM. Anybody that fucks Katie Hopkins over deserves respect.

[Jurek]

Indeed. 

[Mr Larrington]

[…]wine […] remainder […]

Nope, don’t get it

[ian]

Tongue in cheek. You know me   

I haven't got it in for JM. Anybody that fucks Katie Hopkins over deserves respect.

While that might be true, and deeply satisfying, she does overdo the poverty porn and comes across as very narcissistic, single-handedly saving the poor (which might come as a surprise to all the people who are running food banks, the many other chefs who specifically create meal plans and recipes etc.) Despite what must be a series of lucrative media gigs, books, and brand deals, she's often raising money, with little transparency on where the money goes. Her approach seems a bit haphazard at best.

Even the ONS example – it's well-known (as they said this at the time and, well, it's actually their job to do that kind of thing) that they've been adjusting their calculations and doing a statistical take on purchases per income bracket, which is – of course – a far better approach than cherry-picking a few items for Twitter likes.

[mrcharly-YHT]

Assuming that someone has fresh rosemary, a handy bottle of olive oil, some spare red wine is right into Sam Vimes boots theory of poverty.  That is the sort of thinking that gives Jack Monroe apoplexy, and rightly so.

Prices from Aldi. It's where the poors shop. And me.

Whatever supplementary ingredients are needed, like oil, have to be costed pro rata. Arguably, the £2 bottle of wine, might be an extravagance unless of course the remainder can be used in another recipe.

With regards to online apoplexy, somebody somewhere is always getting apoplectic about something, but in this case, judging by my calculations (which are correct) the apoplexy is unwarranted.

Maybe Jack Monroe shops at Waitrose?

Whatever supplementary ingredients are needed, like oil, have to be costed pro rata

No, they don't.

That's the thing about being really short of money, you can't think "Oh, I'll buy this olive oil this week because it will be cheap to use per meal."  That simply doesn't work when the single bottle of olive oil costs two day's food budget.

Hence me referencing the Boot Theory.

I have been that short of money. So has my partner. Skipping meals so you can feed your children level of short of money.

[ian]

Using that theory, poor people wouldn't eat anything ever, since they can never buy oil, a block of cheese, a bottle of ketchup or really anything that spreads across more than a single meal.

I grew up pretty poor and I'm pretty sure that we had all these things. And quite a lot of fish fingers.

[Polar Bear]

I think that until people have genuinely been short of cash for more than a couple of days they will never appreciate the problems facing the low waged and vulnerable poor.

I spent a few years making mistake after mistake trying to budget on polluted air:  it is mentally destroying as well as physically exhausting.  Going hungry for a couple of days is truly awful.  I can only imagine that going hungry for weeks, even years on end must be the toughest gig out there.

It's a pity more people don't do more to alleviate these issues in our "rich" nation as oppose to simply attack those who are making an effort.  Says all you need to know about the aggressors in my book and none of it is nice.

[mrcharly-YHT]

Using that theory, poor people wouldn't eat anything ever, since they can never buy oil, a block of cheese, a bottle of ketchup or really anything that spreads across more than a single meal.

I grew up pretty poor and I'm pretty sure that we had all these things. And quite a lot of fish fingers.

Chips, fish fingers, beans; these provide lots of calories for the up-front cost.

Ian, it seems to have escaped your attention that there are a lot of poor people who are only able to eat because of food banks.

The need for, and use, of food banks is a recent phenomenon. Either you or I saying "We didn't have money when we were young but we didn't go hungry, Mum and Dad always had cash for ciggies and there was food on the table." just doesn't apply.

The ratio between low-end wages and housing costs was already appalling and that was before energy bills started to skyrocket.

[ian]

I'm not sure what food banks have to do with it – do they really not have any ingredients that spread across more than a single meal? Do people really eat a block of cheese in one sitting, use an entire bag of pasta, a litre of cooking oil etc. The suggestion that any meal is unsustainable if it contains ingredients that span more than a single meal time. That's nonsensical and a bit patronising.

Unless we're saying that poor people shouldn't indulge in such noble ingredients as parmesan and olive oil* because they're not just poor, but unable to appreciate our more refined middle-class tastes.

*admittedly only used to clean out ear wax from errant children in my day, and the only parmesan was the dried sick variety in a tub, best before the First Crusade.

[Polar Bear]

Have you ever been to a foodbank or understand how they work?

They are overly reliant upon donations and the range is heavily oriented to dried and tinned produce.  In the years I spent doing the pro bono law clinic in the same building in Coventry where there was an operational foodbank the shelves are filled with rice and pasta, beans and soup, breakfast cereals and toilet rolls.  Condiments, herbs and spices, sauces and dairy produce or crest fruit and veg were not in the storerooms.

You could make a pasta meal with a jar of sauce and some dried pasta or a tin of chilli con carne and some rice but don't be ambitious.

People use foodbanks because after all their monthly commitments (and no, I don't mean their Sky TV or their data plan and monthly payment for an  iPhone, I mean rent, fuel bills, petrol to run a knackered car to get to work because there are no buses, etc.) they simply no longer have enough money to feed themselves let alone that they might have children.  They certainly don't have enough money to consider buying olive oil and parmesan cheese let alone fake ketchup or in date cheap bread.

Being poor is genuinely fucking tough in 21st century Britain.  I do not recommend it.

[Polar Bear]

The Politics of DNA

Hope that linky works ...

Did anybody else watch this yesterday evening?

It helped me join a few dots but also to realise just how many historical figures who are reverred in certain circles qualify for super twat status.

If you have an hour so I recommend that you watch it.  It is hugely thought-provoking.

[The Family Cyclist]

The fact that they need to exist sucks

The reason it's all tins and dry is due to it needing a long shelf life, some food banks have an unofficial extras table where maybe things that don't fit the usual criteria such as veg can be given out

I do worry for the food bank users, PB is correct in them being mainly reliant on donations and as the squeeze on finances tighten less people will have the money to be topping up other peoples food stocks

[ian]

So foodbanks do, in fact, supply ingredients that contribute to several meals. Bottles of oil. Bags of pasta. As do shops. That's the point, someone pointed out that costings can't be pro-rated in this way, when clearly most meals require precisely this calculation.

No one sane thinks that foodbanks should exist and that people should be dependent on them. That said, the reliance on foodbank is (still) a minority, and many people who rely on these services, still do shop for additional items. To assume they're universally incapable of preparing a meal is a patronising assumption.

[chrisbainbridge]

I think at least a lot of it is the ground down tiredness that comes from worrying about where every single penny is going to be saved or spent. Almost all of us have come home from work feeling tired and have gone “let’s have a carry out.” Imagine if you are like that every night and every day where you just do not have the energy to think beyond putting some food into the mouths of your children. Then you simply buy a small packet of ready chips and perhaps some sausages for the one meal that will get your children off to sleep and you through to the next day when it all starts again.
That is I think the reality of UC.

[TheLurker]

So foodbanks do, in fact, supply ingredients that contribute to several meals. Bottles of oil...

YMMV.  I have yet to see in any of the food-bank donation bins, in any supermarket, what you might classify as cookery basics such as cooking oil, salt, pepper or anything like that.  It may be that food-banks do supply these things, but as almost all of them seem to rely very heavily, if not exclusively, on donations I wonder how widespread the provision of ingredients is that would allow someone to do anything except open a tin or packet and warm it up.

[Basil]

Llandysul food bank are struggling and begging.  Due to large increase in demand and massive decrease in donations.

[barakta]

I've seen foodbanks saying that people are refusing to take anything that requires refrigerating or significant cooking because they're trying to keep the fridge unplugged and don't have the power for heating. Also foodbank volunteers reporting people eating food that's gone bad cos of turning the fridge off to save power.

Now I don't doubt some of the refusing heatables or turning off the fridge is ignorance about what uses what-amount of power so skimping on the wrong things (or possibly skimping EVERYTHING) But that's POVERTY! The grinding fear and exhaustion and not having the cognitive capacity to research what's the most expensive cos EVERYTHING is too expensive.

I've been on a low income, and had literally no money beyond very basic cheap food + bills + rent (fuck you London) and stuff, sometimes for a fair amount of time, but I've never been properly poor where I couldn't afford the basics whatever I did. If I was on benefits now, I'd end up properly poor pretty fast. I'm very aware that it is basically luck AND privilege that I can earn enough on part time hours to do OK, but also that my health could crap out at any minute and I'd land back in proper-DWP land and more.

It is worse to be poor now than poor in the past cos the cost of rent and energy is waaaay higher relative to the value of money than it was in the 70s, 80s and even 90s! Benefits are far meaner because the government froze them in relation to inflation and punishes people with sanctions which get worse and worse every year.

[ian]

I think at least a lot of it is the ground down tiredness that comes from worrying about where every single penny is going to be saved or spent. Almost all of us have come home from work feeling tired and have gone “let’s have a carry out.” Imagine if you are like that every night and every day where you just do not have the energy to think beyond putting some food into the mouths of your children. Then you simply buy a small packet of ready chips and perhaps some sausages for the one meal that will get your children off to sleep and you through to the next day when it all starts again.
That is I think the reality of UC.

It's called bandwidth scarcity – and it's one of those things that embeds people in poverty, because they don't have the cognitive bandwidth to plan their way out of it. There's no capacity to get home in an evening and sort for the cheapest deal, or do a bit of retirement planning, or any of the wonderful choices modern society has given us.

There's a sting though, we make poverty even more difficult, with complex procedures and forms, other hoops and hurdles, which ensure what little capacity that remains is (and remains) sapped. I do sometimes wonder if some of this is purposeful, after all, there is no reason for poverty to exist, we do – as a society – have the money and resources to end it overnight. Just not the will.

[Polar Bear]

Like you say, we have more than enough money in our rich country to eradicate national poverty.  It is difficult to look beyond political ideology as the primary cause of poverty in the UK.

[rogerzilla]

Fridges are huge energy users (because they're on 24/7, even if the compressor isn't constantly running). They are, however, the one thing most people really need electricity for.  You can't get a candle-powered or paper fridge.

[quixoticgeek]

Maybe Jack Monroe shops at Waitrose?

If you actually took a moment, you'd know that Jack is very public about how they shop.

https://twitter.com/BootstrapCook/status/1563527138417917953

Jack is very open about their methodology, the stocktake, the plan, the method, etc...

J

[rogerzilla]

Like you say, we have more than enough money in our rich country to eradicate national poverty.  It is difficult to look beyond political ideology as the primary cause of poverty in the UK.

A friend explained that you (I don't mean you, Polar Bear) vote Tory in the full knowledge that the Tories hate you, but they hate the people that you hate a bit more.

[ian]

Like you say, we have more than enough money in our rich country to eradicate national poverty.  It is difficult to look beyond political ideology as the primary cause of poverty in the UK.

It's not just mere political ideology, many people thrive on having someone to look down upon, after all that informs their own social position. So indeed, they will vote for policies that keep the status quo.

[quixoticgeek]

While that might be true, and deeply satisfying, she does overdo the poverty porn and comes across as very narcissistic, single-handedly saving the poor (which might come as a surprise to all the people who are running food banks, the many other chefs who specifically create meal plans and recipes etc.) Despite what must be a series of lucrative media gigs, books, and brand deals, she's often raising money, with little transparency on where the money goes. Her approach seems a bit haphazard at best.

Wow, I think, I'd like to nominate Ian for this thread.

Jack is incredibly transparent about where the money goes, what gets turned down, and the requirements of any brand deal. It's all there, in detail on twitter.

J

[Kim]

candle-powered [...] fridge.

You could probably run an absorption fridge on candles.  But that makes about as much sense as using them for light.