Author Topic: COVID19 and Audax UK  (Read 112750 times)

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #275 on: 31 July, 2020, 11:23:12 am »
The TT contains controlled access to the course from the start line, so they know who is on course and pretty much where at the time.

Some sports including cycle sports do require active scruitineering for various reasons.
AUK offload that responsibility to the rider, which is reasonable for a relatively simple machine and limited scope for rule infringements.
Similarly some versions of car "sport" can operate without scruitineering, but that would require me to compare Audax to "Touring Assemblies" and "treasure hunts" though it's not a bad comparison in terms of what people do on the road.

The normal system of trusting people falls over when the laws and insurance rules no longer support it.

The example given is anything that would involve both the police and insurance company discovering potential breeches of group sizing.
As things stand the insurance companies are likely to come down heavier on organizers and people than the police.

Dad was told if there was any breech of coronavirus laws/regs on the event he ran the other week then there would be no insurance, if the police had turned up on a matter of reports of an oversized gathering they'd have dispersed it rather than fined anyone assuming there was no further agro.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #276 on: 31 July, 2020, 11:59:59 am »
Staggered starts for a brevet is much the same as a TT start.

The rest of your comment needs some more clarification. The police are more likely to disperse excessively large groups of cyclists than charge them, unless there are contributing factors? Insurance is likely to try to find reasons not to provide coverage? Well yes but cycling clubs are already sending out multiple socially distanced groups in a single day without issues.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #277 on: 31 July, 2020, 12:32:24 pm »
Staggered starts for a brevet is much the same as a TT start.

The rest of your comment needs some more clarification. The police are more likely to disperse excessively large groups of cyclists than charge them, unless there are contributing factors? Insurance is likely to try to find reasons not to provide coverage? Well yes but cycling clubs are already sending out multiple socially distanced groups in a single day without issues.

In theory and organized group activity should have a nominated "Coronavirus Risk person" who's head it lands on if breeches occur.
Are they riding the same route and going to the same café? They shouldn't be! And the groups around me seem to be following that.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #278 on: 31 July, 2020, 01:03:02 pm »
Apparently AUKs riding the same loop in different directions are counted collectively, rather than considered different routes. Any idea why?
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #279 on: 31 July, 2020, 01:10:14 pm »
Apparently AUKs riding the same loop in different directions are counted collectively, rather than considered different routes. Any idea why?

Potential to congregate at the cross overs?

I'm not in the decision making process for Auk, I only know what I know from someone who has been involved in similar for car sport and from reading other sports restart processes.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #280 on: 31 July, 2020, 03:35:45 pm »
Apparently AUKs riding the same loop in different directions are counted collectively, rather than considered different routes. Any idea why?

Because semantically it's one event, with one identity.  Nothing in AUK's entry or results records can distinguish things like direction of travel, start time, intermediate times, what type of machine ridden.  The organiser may have this information (for a while) but AUK just has an event ID, a rider ID and for Permanents, a date.

The whole idea of 'ride round either way' and 'start anywhere you want' has arisen over time from needy cyclist types who enter a Permanent and then seem to want to personalise it - "can I start from home because it's practically on the route" - "can I ride round anti-clock because I prefer turning left"  etc etc.  But there's nothing on the the Entry Form that allows for those choices - they really are just the entrant jerking the organiser around.

In the present situation a simple way for an organiser to facilitate more entries per day might be to register two Perm events (I don't think there's any registration cost for Perms?) with one of them simply being the reverse circuit of the other - call them 'Up The Junction (A)' and 'Up The Junction (B)' or whatever.  Though the entrant must choose in advance which version they want to do - because currently AUK's entries are not transferable.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #281 on: 31 July, 2020, 03:37:34 pm »
Fine, let’s do that then!
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #282 on: 31 July, 2020, 03:48:31 pm »
Just out of interest, so you have a pressing need to have more than six people do a perm on the same day in the next couple of months, or is this all hypothetical?

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #283 on: 31 July, 2020, 03:52:52 pm »
I dislike stupidities that prevent my friends doing safe, legal things and I particularly dislike those stupidities being used to restrict future safe, legal things.

Personally, I particularly want AUK to validate longer DIY by GPS brevets in the near future since there is no logical reason to restrict them.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

rob

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #284 on: 31 July, 2020, 04:34:48 pm »
The 6 rider limit thing is IMHO daft but I can live with it.

As LWaB says open up longer distance perms ASAP.  There's no reason why we shouldn't be riding these now.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #285 on: 31 July, 2020, 04:51:31 pm »
The 6 rider limit thing is IMHO daft but I can live with it.

It amy be daft, but if it's the only way AUK can comply with the law then there's a common saying that fits the situation...

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #286 on: 31 July, 2020, 05:18:27 pm »
Sure, change the system to suit. Have parallel events for simultaneous start locations and opposing directions. Done, move on.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

rob

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #287 on: 31 July, 2020, 05:21:35 pm »
The 6 rider limit thing is IMHO daft but I can live with it.

It amy be daft, but if it's the only way AUK can comply with the law then there's a common saying that fits the situation...

It is categorically not the only way that AUK can comply with the law.

Wycombewheeler

  • PBP-2019 LEL-2022
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #288 on: 31 July, 2020, 06:13:10 pm »
The 6 rider limit thing is IMHO daft but I can live with it.

It amy be daft, but if it's the only way AUK can comply with the law then there's a common saying that fits the situation...
6 riders together at any one time =/= 6 riders on an event.
Just as no mord than 6 people socialising together =/= no more than 6 people using the same restaurant on the same day.

No matter how many times some people state the rules mean only 6 people on any perm event is a legal requirement, it simply isn't true.

The restriction is a means of proving the rules have been followed, when the assumption should be tha t rules have been followed unless proven otherwise. Require entants to confirm start and finish time and declare that they did not ride or congregate with anyone using a different start time.

This talk about potential congregation at crossover points is absurd, other people will be using shops and cafes at the same time all within the law.

Eddington  127miles, 170km

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #289 on: 31 July, 2020, 06:18:45 pm »
It's not that 6 people on the perm in a day is the legal problem, it's proving there were only 6 people in one place at any time.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk


LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #290 on: 31 July, 2020, 06:20:23 pm »
CTT manage to do that with 120 riders in an event.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #291 on: 31 July, 2020, 06:31:05 pm »
They're not allowed 2-up
You're not allowed to be in the car park until a given time
You're not allowed to speak to anyone else in the car park
you have to go to the line and look at the time keeper who's hiding in a car or in the neighbouring field
You go when he says to go,
You malky yourself to pieces
There's only limited circumstances where a course marhsall will help you
When you get back to the finish you're to ride directly back to your car without stopping on the way
and once you've done all that you've to leave the site ASAP.

That's not the same as having 120 riders in one location at the same time with any risk of them mingling as would be normal.
They're running it in a manner that means the riders are never in close contact with anyone at all unless there's a major issue.

For the other sport I keep mentioning here's a preeminant hack's take on what the two clubs that have managed to put events on in Scotland had to do.
http://www.jaggybunnet.co.uk/2020/07/21-jul-autotesting-under-covid/

Again nothing like normal despite from the outside looking like it.
If you read it there's a carefully worded dig at football.

What he hasn't mentioned is that MSUK aren't allowing joint occupancy of a car and when cars are shared for entry cleaning measures must be taken place, what that means is where junior sport is involved (in which there must be a passenger with a road driving licence in the vehicle) it can't be done even though the vast majority of kids taking part in autotests are doing so with a parent in the other seat.

There's also this statement "Another new innovation was the requirement for a Covid19 Officer whose duties included the oversight of all pre-event and on-event preparations and ensuring that competitors and officials respected the social distancing rules and followed the guidance laid down by the event organisers."



AUK have gone for a fairly blunt approach at managing compliance with the law.

rob

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #292 on: 31 July, 2020, 06:31:43 pm »
I really do try to not get involved with AUK politics but, as I’ve said before, other branches of cycle sport are working hard towards getting people back out and AUK are actively finding ways to prevent it.

Tomsk

  • Fueled by cake since 1957
    • tomsk.co.uk
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #293 on: 31 July, 2020, 07:24:08 pm »
From the AUK entry form: I understand that during the event I am on a private excursion on the public highway and that I am responsible for my
own conduct
. I agree to abide by Audax UK Regulations for this ride.


It's a private excursion, just a bike ride and I hope we're all responsible riders. Auk regs are about validation of the distance ridden and not policing rider behaviour. Club regulations are different - my club has chucked a rider out for loutish riding and bad-mouthing other members.

I can live with a few limits for now: capping numbers (though 6 seems a bit mean), no calendar rides, small groups on the road (what's new?) and so on. We're mostly out there riding lots anyway, especially as overnight stops are permitted now.

stefan

  • aka martin
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #294 on: 31 July, 2020, 07:42:39 pm »
I really do try to not get involved with AUK politics but, as I’ve said before, other branches of cycle sport are working hard towards getting people back out and AUK are actively finding ways to prevent it.

Rob, if you could see the huge amount of work that the board, and in particular Graeme Provan our General Secretary, is doing behind the scenes to ensure we can restart, you might take a different view.

Martin
Member no. 152 of La Société Adrian Hands

rob

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #295 on: 31 July, 2020, 07:49:28 pm »
I really do try to not get involved with AUK politics but, as I’ve said before, other branches of cycle sport are working hard towards getting people back out and AUK are actively finding ways to prevent it.

Rob, if you could see the huge amount of work that the board, and in particular Graeme Provan our General Secretary, is doing behind the scenes to ensure we can restart, you might take a different view.

Martin

I was at a social with Graeme for a few hours just over a week ago.  We didn’t discuss anything about this subject, though.

ETA - Just because someone is working really hard does not mean I have to agree with their conclusions.  As an AUK member of nearly 28 years I have a right to challenge what is being presented.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #296 on: 31 July, 2020, 07:50:37 pm »
From the AUK entry form: I understand that during the event I am on a private excursion on the public highway and that I am responsible for my
own conduct
. I agree to abide by Audax UK Regulations for this ride.


It's a private excursion, just a bike ride and I hope we're all responsible riders. Auk regs are about validation of the distance ridden and not policing rider behaviour. Club regulations are different - my club has chucked a rider out for loutish riding and bad-mouthing other members.

I can live with a few limits for now: capping numbers (though 6 seems a bit mean), no calendar rides, small groups on the road (what's new?) and so on. We're mostly out there riding lots anyway, especially as overnight stops are permitted now.

The problem with this is the classic "you can't disclaim your way out of legal obligations"

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #297 on: 31 July, 2020, 08:23:11 pm »
The laws about social distancing may well change a lot over the coming days/weeks following the surge in new cases in various parts of the country.  Add to this the hot weather of today where beaches around the country have been inundated and it appears obvious to me that more 'hot spots' will quickly become apparent.

I for one, am just grateful to be able to get out and ride my bike at the moment but i'm also aware that that could all change too.

I have all but written this year off and just hopeful that we get a vaccine by the end of the year and start again next year.

stefan

  • aka martin
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #298 on: 31 July, 2020, 10:59:25 pm »
Guidance, behaviour codes and risk assessment documents for tomorrow's restart now on AUK website

https://audax.uk/news/resumption-of-auk-events-1-august-2020/
Member no. 152 of La Société Adrian Hands

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #299 on: 01 August, 2020, 04:28:38 am »
Some relevance to my imminent solo DIY ride. But It reads as written for events. Reads rather like many RAs. A statement written without any particular understanding