Author Topic: RIP Ursula K Le Guin  (Read 2997 times)

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hillbilly

Re: RIP Ursula K Le Guin
« Reply #1 on: 24 January, 2018, 12:18:29 am »
I thought she had already passed.

She wrote some very good SF.  Must pick Left Hand of Darkness out of my pile at some point.

Re: RIP Ursula K Le Guin
« Reply #2 on: 24 January, 2018, 12:51:10 am »
Oh - a little light has left the world

Interesting that the obituary did not mention 'The Word for World is Forest'. Since that book is generally taken to be a savage critic of US international interventionism, maybe not surprising.
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Steph

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Re: RIP Ursula K Le Guin
« Reply #3 on: 24 January, 2018, 07:02:20 am »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42798654

They mention "Left Hand..." but describe the people of Gethen as 'ambisexual'. No they are not! They are hermaphrodites with a dominant sex cycle, not people who are sexually attracted to anyone.

There is a quote of a letter from her about sexism which is amusing.
Mae angen arnaf i byw, a fe fydda'i

Re: RIP Ursula K Le Guin
« Reply #4 on: 24 January, 2018, 07:31:48 am »
 :( a great writer and a major influence on many who followed in several genres.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: RIP Ursula K Le Guin
« Reply #5 on: 24 January, 2018, 08:40:34 am »
She gave dignity to SF.  It's a shame that SF writers never receive the honours reserved for "serious" writers, who are acclaimed when they stoop to write SF, even when it's bad SF they write.

I read that obit. this morning, and was rather surprised to learn that "Ishi in two worlds", which I read in the 60s and had all but forgotten, had been written by her mother. I must have a look for it.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

Re: RIP Ursula K Le Guin
« Reply #6 on: 24 January, 2018, 09:04:00 am »
Quote
It's a shame that SF writers never receive the honours reserved for "serious" writers, who are acclaimed when they stoop to write SF, even when it's bad SF they write.

Is that really so?  I can think of SF writers who are highly regarded but I have no idea what 'honours' they received.  I suppose I am too much of a philistine to follow who won what in literature - or drama and music for that matter :-[ 

Checking one candidate I find my brother's favourite, Terry Pratchett, did ok on the awards stage. 
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Steph

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Re: RIP Ursula K Le Guin
« Reply #7 on: 24 January, 2018, 05:57:04 pm »
A few comments on the SF without honours thing.

Doris Lessing, IIRC, 'Children of Men'. Lauded to the skies despite it being a rip-off of Brian Aldiss' 'Greybeard'.

Martin Amis, 'Time's Arrow'. Ditto. Rip-off of Philip K Dick's 'Coiunterclockworld'.

And so on. It is rather like the quote from an old friend of mine that SF is not literature. When given examples of literary SF, his reply was "But that's literature, so it can't be SF"

As for Pterry, two quotes from 'the establishment'

"Adolescent masturbatory fantasy like Terry Pratchett"
"Writing for the functionally illiterate"
Mae angen arnaf i byw, a fe fydda'i

Re: RIP Ursula K Le Guin
« Reply #8 on: 24 January, 2018, 06:39:01 pm »
Not fast & rarely furious

tweeting occasional in(s)anities as andrewxclark

mattc

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Re: RIP Ursula K Le Guin
« Reply #9 on: 24 January, 2018, 07:22:05 pm »
She's just been quoted on the BBC as saying "I'd rather be called an American Novelist". Although I inferred it wasn't an exact quote.

IMO this would be largely influenced by the anti-SFF bias in literary circles. (which is mirrored by bias against pretty much all genre fiction - but I don't really read any other "genres" :P )
Has never ridden RAAM
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No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: RIP Ursula K Le Guin
« Reply #10 on: 24 January, 2018, 08:29:07 pm »


Doris Lessing, IIRC, 'Children of Men'. Lauded to the skies despite it being a rip-off of Brian Aldiss' 'Greybeard'.

I think you have your books mixed up. PD James wrote 'Children of Men'. Plot quite different from Greybeard as well (only thing in common is general sterility). No war in Children of Men.
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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: RIP Ursula K Le Guin
« Reply #11 on: 25 January, 2018, 07:48:35 pm »
Never read any Ursula Le Guin, not into sci-fi, but my son is and I happened to notice one of her books in the s/h b-shop window today so got it for him. He's reading it now. No comments yet.

As for literature vs SF, how about Margaret Atwood? Often considered sci-fi but she didn't like the term (and I don't think it's quite accurate for her but... some do!)
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

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Re: RIP Ursula K Le Guin
« Reply #12 on: 25 January, 2018, 08:07:44 pm »
As for literature vs SF, how about Margaret Atwood? Often considered sci-fi but she didn't like the term (and I don't think it's quite accurate for her but... some do!)

Canonical example of the snobbery that motivates people to makes a fuss about the distinction, IMHO.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: RIP Ursula K Le Guin
« Reply #13 on: 25 January, 2018, 08:29:37 pm »
As for literature vs SF, how about Margaret Atwood? Often considered sci-fi but she didn't like the term (and I don't think it's quite accurate for her but... some do!)

Canonical example of the snobbery that motivates people to makes a fuss about the distinction, IMHO.
Who's the snob in this case: her, me or the critics? Or all of us?  :D

Here's what she says, according to Wikipedia:
Quote
Atwood has resisted the suggestion that The Handmaid's Tale and Oryx and Crake are science fiction, suggesting to The Guardian in 2003 that they are speculative fiction instead: "Science fiction has monsters and spaceships; speculative fiction could really happen."[22] She told the Book of the Month Club: "Oryx and Crake is a speculative fiction, not a science fiction proper. It contains no intergalactic space travel, no teleportation, no Martians."[23] On BBC Breakfast, she explained that science fiction, as opposed to what she herself wrote, was "talking squids in outer space." The latter phrase particularly rankled advocates of science fiction and frequently recurs when her writing is discussed.[23]

In 2005, Atwood said that she does at times write social science fiction and that The Handmaid's Tale and Oryx and Crake can be designated as such. She clarified her meaning on the difference between speculative and science fiction, admitting that others use the terms interchangeably: "For me, the science fiction label belongs on books with things in them that we can't yet do... speculative fiction means a work that employs the means already to hand and that takes place on Planet Earth." She said that science fiction narratives give a writer the ability to explore themes in ways that realistic fiction cannot.[24]

Having read those books and others of hers, that distinction makes sense to me too. She explores social futures rather than technological ones. I'm not sure that means sci-fi as conventionally understood doesn't do the same. I'd say it's probably a matter of emphasis, with some sci-fi being robots and "squids in space" and some not. Outside of writing, Star Wars and Star Trek are clearly using robots and aliens to talk about people and societies. I think there's a thread on all this stuff somewhere...

As for "speculative fiction", my cousin was (long ago) president of the "British Speculative Fiction Society", but I couldn't tell you what it's meant to mean... 
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

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Re: RIP Ursula K Le Guin
« Reply #14 on: 25 January, 2018, 09:15:06 pm »
Most good science fiction is about social futures.  If you think, say, the Culture series is about aliens, giant spaceships and laser battles, then you really haven't been paying attention.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: RIP Ursula K Le Guin
« Reply #15 on: 26 January, 2018, 09:16:13 am »
I am not the naughty kid at the back of the class copying the answers off a friend, I am the blank looking one who wasn't in class that day. My name's not even in the register.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: RIP Ursula K Le Guin
« Reply #16 on: 26 January, 2018, 09:43:35 am »
Most good science fiction is about social futures.  If you think, say, the Culture series is about aliens, giant spaceships and laser battles, then you really haven't been paying attention.

Yes, one story I read long ago sticks in my mind. It was about a society where the lower orders were obliged to consume and meet targets in consuming.  The higher up the social order you went the less you were obliged to consume and the simpler and less onerous your life became.  It probably seemed quite fantastical when first published.
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Steph

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Re: RIP Ursula K Le Guin
« Reply #17 on: 27 January, 2018, 12:01:33 pm »
Most good science fiction is about social futures.  If you think, say, the Culture series is about aliens, giant spaceships and laser battles, then you really haven't been paying attention.

Yes, one story I read long ago sticks in my mind. It was about a society where the lower orders were obliged to consume and meet targets in consuming.  The higher up the social order you went the less you were obliged to consume and the simpler and less onerous your life became.  It probably seemed quite fantastical when first published.

That is probably Fred Pohl's 'Wizards of Pung's Corners" or 'The Man Who Ate the World"

A few responses.
PD James, yup. I posted that on the fly, but regardless of the lack or a war in the Aldiss, it was the concept that James nicked and it was the concept she was praised for.

Fans (a word invented by and for SF fans, BTW) avoid the term sci-fi. The preferred term is SF, sci-fi being reserved for silliness like Star Wars. All SF fits the term 'speculative fiction', as the basic root of SF is to say "what if?" and imagine what effect a single change would have on society. That change could be an alien invasion, it could be worldwide sterility. It could be a resurgence of religion (a lot of SF about that) or about a change in politics. The key is that examination of the results rather than obsession with the events, which tends to relate more to sci-fi than SF. As an example, a large proportion of Phil Dick's work is about what it means to be human. Starship Troopers is a book about the meaning of adulthood and personal responsibility, and I saw a complaint from a reader that the book didn't have enough battle scenes in it. The Verhoeven film was sci-fi, as all it contained was flash and bang. Fans hate it.

Atwood's refusal to accept what her work is comes from simple snobbery, and it doesn't matter where the snobbery emanates from. It is the same attitude inherent in "U and Non-U"

As an aside, the SF writers 'trade union', SF Writers of America, which I believe Fred Pohl was very involved in, heard that Lucas was suing Battlestar G's makers for plagiarising Star Wars and so rang him to ask how the lawsuit was progressing.
"Why do you ask?"
"Because if you win, we'll sue you"
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mattc

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Re: RIP Ursula K Le Guin
« Reply #18 on: 27 January, 2018, 02:35:08 pm »
Star Wars diversion [Cont]:
As an aside, the SF writers 'trade union', SF Writers of America, which I believe Fred Pohl was very involved in, heard that Lucas was suing Battlestar G's makers for plagiarising Star Wars and so rang him to ask how the lawsuit was progressing.
"Why do you ask?"
"Because if you win, we'll sue you"
Being a Lucas completist, I'm sure you've already seen it, but there was a lovely docco on recently about where Lucas got his story from:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0077sx7
Hollywood's Master of Myth: Joseph Campbell - the Force Behind Star Wars

Documentary which tells the remarkable story of a man whose visionary ideas about myth helped shape the whole Star Wars cycle of films. Joseph Campbell's writings are the missing link between ancient myths and modern movies, Homer and Hollywood 'high concept'. His ideas about the universal appeal of stories involving a 'hero's journey' have also influenced films as diverse as Mad Max and Babe. Campbell himself was a reluctant hero, who lived a scholerly life - he didn't own a television and rarely went to the cinema. Yet Campbell remains a force in Hollywood. With contributions from George Lucas, director George Miller, and writers Robert McKee and Richard Adams, among others.



On the same night there was an even better prog about the physical making of Star Wars [the scrapyard finds that became the lightsaber, R2D2 etc, and other minutae]. Honestly, it was really good!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09k5l6w
The Galaxy Britain Built celebrates the British contribution to the original Star Wars.

Presenter and Star Wars fan David Whiteley uncovers some never-before-heard stories from the geniuses who helped build the galaxy, from the costume designer and art director to the man who made the lightsaber. It was a time when science fiction films were not box office draws, and very few people in the industry believed in George Lucas's vision. But his first Star Wars film ended up being a very British endeavour.

The programme documents the behind-the-scenes talent that helped bring the galaxy to life in the late 1970s. It also looks at how the British talent continues to be part of the Star Wars legacy to the present day.

Snippet
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Steph

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Re: RIP Ursula K Le Guin
« Reply #19 on: 27 January, 2018, 04:43:42 pm »
Unfortunately, I can't watch those as I have neither TV nor licence.
Mae angen arnaf i byw, a fe fydda'i

vorsprung

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Re: RIP Ursula K Le Guin
« Reply #20 on: 27 January, 2018, 09:06:25 pm »
Joseph Campell  is great and I recommend his "hero with a thousand faces"

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: RIP Ursula K Le Guin
« Reply #21 on: 14 February, 2018, 08:05:36 pm »
My resident sci-fi and fantasy reader says the Le Guin he's been reading, one of the Earthsea trilogy I think, has an interesting story and good worldbuilding but "the characters are not compelling".
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: RIP Ursula K Le Guin
« Reply #22 on: 15 February, 2018, 11:52:58 pm »
Working my way through Earthsea again. Currently midway through "Tehanu", written many years after the original books.  I've read it once before, but not as part of a sequence.  The further story of Tenar/Arha from "The Tombs of Atuan", which I think was the first of the books I read as a child (school library)


https://www.tor.com/2011/10/25/a-woman-on-gont-ursula-k-le-guins-tehanu/


http://thegreenmanreview.com/wordpress1/books/ursula-k-le-guins-tehanu/
Not fast & rarely furious

tweeting occasional in(s)anities as andrewxclark

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.