Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Freewheeling => Topic started by: De Sisti on 14 April, 2024, 06:58:25 am
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As the subject headers says, it had to be raised in the slower section of our cycling club
which I lead every Saturday. For the past nine months three middle-age ladies have been
riding with us. I've known them from a keep-fit class They are all extremely good half-marathon
runners, achieving times of between 1 hr 30 mins - 1 hr 45 mins.
Last year (in one of the classes) they heard me talk about cycling and said that because
they also cycle, they would be interested in joining our club, but were afraid of slowing down
the other riders. I then suggested they come out with me to one of our flatter Saturday cafe
runs and I'd ride at the pace the group normally cycles at, and if they can keep up with me
they would be ok.
The ride ride was about 35 miles. At no time did they attempt to keep up with me, which
meant that I was having to slow down to stay with them and keep the ride amicable.
At the end of the ride, having some banter and in a jovial way, I said that I'd grade them
a C+, but if stretching it, a B-. We all laughed about it, but in reality they were neither.
They way they rode it was like they were three schoolgirls at the back of a classroom
having a natter.
Since they started with our slowest group we have been having to stop time and time again
for them to catch up. I have suggested that they ride towards the front of the group
in order for them not to fall behind. This advice is ignored, so the start-stop-start nature
of the rides have contined, as I did not want to discourage them.
It transpired that other riders in the grpup were unhappy about the way the rides were
progressing, but weren't prepared to be vocal about it. I asked them individually what they
would do in my position. All the replies they gave me were; "It's a difficult decision".
I mentioned our problem to our road captain and club chairman. They both told me they'd
be behind any decision I make. So, before yesterday's ride started I told the women where
we were heading (they knew where the cafe was) and the after nine months of riding they
should be capable of staying with the group, but in order to keep the group together, if they
continually dropped behind, we'd meet them at the cafe. The road captain was with me
when I made my suggestion.
This did not go down well at all. Our group was large enough to split into two. When we arrived
at the cafe the three ladies arrived after us and sat on a table by themselves. I went over
to chat to them but there was a very tense atmosphere.
They told me they were upset that I said we would no longer wait for them if they dropped
behind and that they expected us to stay with them if they turn up for a ride. One suggested
(as they have in some running club) a 'sweeper' to stay behind the slowest rider. They went
on to say that they were only ever 5 seconds behind the group. I assure you, that is not the
case.
Two of them said they wanted a leisurely ride and are not prepared to ride faster and will no
longer turn up. The third lady said she didn't like being told she couldn't ride with us. We
never said that. From the start, we have told them the should expect to be out of their
comfort zone for a few rides in order to improve. They all did that with their running, but
not for cycling.
The end result of this is that they no longer want to speak to me. It has hurt me a bit because
on each ride that I have led with them I have given support and encouragement to them,
but all the good-natured behaviour towards them has back-fired.
I have mentioned it to some of the group members who expressed their frustration about the
start-stop-start nature of our recent rides and they all said the elephant in the room had to
tackled sooner rather than later.
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Sounds like the problem is solved. Well done for telling them. Don't feel bad about it.
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Doubtless, if your club started a VERY slow group, then they would still be at the back. I’ve been back marker many times before, and some people just don’t ‘get it’. It can be so frustrating when you can see the main pack up ahead, and a big gap between them and the person at the back ( who you are staying with) , and a long down hill approaches, and what do they do……….? they coast down the hill rather than speed up to catch up the rest. No amount of ‘telling’ will get the message through, and I’m not talking about beginners either. Anyway, don’t feel bad about it, maybe a CTC group is more their thing. It could be due to the fact there is more than 1, and they like to natter as they ride, maybe individually they’d be ok. Job done move on. Well done, ‘ you can’t please some of the people all of the time’
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The only solution to this is to have three rides, which is what Beacon RCC did (and may still do). A normal club run, a fast run mainly for the licensed racers, and a slow run where no-one is left behind.
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As someone who is a slow rider, I used to get upset when ride leaders just thought I could pedal a bit harder to keep up. No, I couldn’t, I would be drenched in sweat and completely pooped when they were using almost zero energy. It’s what it is and I stopped doing group riding until I got a motor. And they would stop and wait for me and when I caught up they would go straight off again so I had no time to recover and get my breath back whereas they had.
Maybe the ride was too fast for them. Sounds like you needed a slower option too, or say it is not suitable for them.
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Over my 50 years of cycling, I have been a member of several clubs and what I’ve found is that each club has its own ‘pace’ (or several paces if there’s more than 1 group), and sometimes, I was too slow for even the slowest group in that club. I took this to mean that the club wasn’t for me and looked for another club. I didn’t see this as the fault of the club concerned and neither did I expect them to slow down just for me. I also didn’t (and still don’t) mind riding on my own if dropped. These ladies need to learn Rule No 5.
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Anyway, don’t feel bad about it, maybe a CTC group is more their thing. It could be due to the fact there is more than 1, and they like to natter as they ride, maybe individually they’d be ok.
This seems to be the crux of the matter.
They see their running as a fitness thing, they see the cycling as a social thing.
They got the wrong end of the stick when they joined your rides (and rather oddly haven't realised) thinking they were joining social rides rather than for fitness.
Clearly your group is not for them but I am not sure - from your description - if they *as a sub-group* would integrate into any other club. Perhaps as individuals, but not together.
You've done your best, but these people, while they stick with each other don't seem to want to be part of your riding sessions except on their terms.
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You've dealt with it. You explained the etiquette when you told them it their responsibility to try and keep up and when you invited them to ride further forward in the group. You are not responsible for their feelings.
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They are all extremely good half-marathon
runners, achieving times of between 1 hr 30 mins - 1 hr 45 mins.
They most certainly are.
Sounds like running is where they hone their competitive edge and the cycling was a bit of a chill out zone. Which is fine of course.
What's a bit odd though, is they would know from their running experience how difficult it can be for a group of 'exercisers' to all be going at the same pace, all of the time, and how frustrating it can be to ride at a consciously slower pace and how hard it can be to ride faster for any period of time.
They would have known all that before they started, surely? Of course they did because they told you so:
they would be interested in joining our club, but were afraid of slowing down
the other riders.
No harm done, they can still go out and enjoy each others company, at their own pace in their own time.
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It's possible that they have a problem being people, rather than just cyclists.
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You did the right thing at the wrong time. You should probably have been more honest after the first ride. They had said that they were afraid of slowing down the other riders before the first ride and - when it turned out that that was what had happened - they might have taken it better (if not well) at that point. By waiting 9 months to have the conversation you may have given them the impression that there was nothing wrong with the way they rode.
I don't mean this harshly - I would have done exactly the same. It's hard telling someone that they don't fit.
I once went on a ride and was dropped at every turn. I didn't need to be told not to come back.
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As someone who is a slow rider, I used to get upset when ride leaders just thought I could pedal a bit harder to keep up. No, I couldn’t, I would be drenched in sweat and completely pooped when they were using almost zero energy. It’s what it is and I stopped doing group riding until I got a motor. And they would stop and wait for me and when I caught up they would go straight off again so I had no time to recover and get my breath back whereas they had.
Maybe the ride was too fast for them. Sounds like you needed a slower option too, or say it is not suitable for them.
This.
The problem with cyclists is that most of them think that they're slow, which makes it very hard to communicate realistic expectations of pace. This is compounded by genuinely slow riders tending not to be interested in performance stats, so even if you do put a number on it, this might not mean much to them.
Ultimately, you said "if you can keep up" and then spent nine months doing "nobody left behind", so it's understandable that communication has failed to happen the way you hoped.
Sounds like they'd be better off somewhere else, but it hasn't made your club look good.
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Yes, there's some sense in that. One thing I find puzzling is that, if they are such good runners (I don't know their ages but their times are above average whatever) why are they such poor cyclists? If they really are much better than they appear but really want a slow social ride then maybe they just have an unrealistic expectation of how much a group is prepared to alter their modus operandi to suit them? Perhaps they want to ride with a group in order to feel safer? I understand that possibility. It might be nice to actually have a sit-down talk with them about their feelings but that looks out of the question, now. But it shouldn't be the end of anybody's world. That said, I know how easily upset I can get and would be mortified to feel I had driven someone away. That wouldn't necessarily make me culpable but I'd definitely be upset.
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I spent much of the many years I was an active cyclist cycling alone, as I just could not keep up with the group, despite my best efforts.
It’s rather sad these women could not ‘read the room’ and understand that their pace didn’t suit the rest of the group.
I’m afraid the need a different club and sorry this has caused upset.
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Happened to me once. I turned up for a ride with a group I knew nothing about. Didn't know any of them. Consequently, I spent three hours of a Sunday morning turning myself inside out, yo-yoing off the back.
I was a fairly fit cyclist in his early 50s, but not mentally at ease with the macho competitiveness of the ride.
Enjoyment factor zero.
I didn't complain. I just didn't ever join them again. Simples.
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i don't see the problem
they are slow and CBA keeping up
if a very leisurely ride existed they might get on better with that
If i wanted to ride with a racing club on one of their outings I would expect to have to put in a lot of effort just to stay in contact even on the "slower section" ride
If you don't want to ride hard don't ride with a racing club
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I think it a case of misaligned expectations between what they expected and what you expected of your rides. Likely a case of being clear on expectations, including whether it is no drop or not. Then reinforcing your expectations during the ride whilst being friendly enough.
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Actually...there is another answer
The ladies should get electric bikes. Then they could keep up and not have to put in much effort. Problem solved
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Being slow, despite trying as hard as you can is HORRIBLE!
You’re breathless, exhausted, overheated, patronised, mocked and scorned.
Some of us really did try. Being seen as ‘not trying hard enough’ just added to the misery.
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That is definitely poor, Helly.
I recognised immediately a complaint in san earlier post about stronger riders who wait for less strong ones and then set off as soon as they have joined up, so that only the better riders have an easier ride. That's a bit thick, really, but pretty common in my experience. Of course it also happens that joining riders say "OK" as they approach the main group - which can also be a bit thick!
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Actually...there is another answer
The ladies should get electric bikes. Then they could keep up and not have to put in much effort. Problem solved
Not for me in the Velomobile world as we are all cruising well over 25 km/h. I could hold 30 km/h for 100km or so but the others can ride at 45-50. Motors switch off at 25 km/h.
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Thank you all for your honest responses. The three women in question are mid to late fifties
(actually, one might be mid sixties, but I daren't ask). In trying to be friendly to them it has
all back-fired. One of the riders who used to follow me on Strava no longer does so (no big
deal really). The fact that other riders in our group (the slowest in the club) have said that
they were also frustrated with the stop-start nature of the riders makes me fee less bad about
the whole situation.
What's more, the two statements they made; (1) we didn't invite them to the club quiz night
(after they requested to join in on a Whatsapp group, even though the details of the event
were published on our club's Facebook page, where you indicate that you're interested in
taking part (they have access to that too) ) and (2) they weren't consulted on the name-change
of the group from Social to 14 mph (which is was a long time ago), clearly demonstrated to me
that they wanted the club to jump to their tune.
Despite the fact that we've been friends for the past 3 - 4 years, they decided to take offence
at the conversation we had (which had to happen) which highlighted a glaring home-truth.
They no longer want to talk to me and if they don't up for our rides again I will not lose any
sleep over it.
For the record, our club has a booming membership, with approaching 400 members. In the
group I lead, I even had two new members for the last ride. Our groups are designated as follows:
20 mph/19/18/17/16/14. The slowest group which I lead can have between 8 and 22 riders,
depending on the time of year and weather. We have no more that 10 in a group, so if we
have, say, 22, I will split the group into 3 and politely strong-arm two stronger/experienced
riders to control of a group and ride about 50 yards behind the members I take charge of.
It is not unheard of for our club to have 70+ riders out on a Saturday morning.
Thank you for your comments and opinions.
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Happened to me once. I turned up for a ride with a group I knew nothing about. Didn't know any of them. Consequently, I spent three hours of a Sunday morning turning myself inside out, yo-yoing off the back.
I was a fairly fit cyclist in his early 50s, but not mentally at ease with the macho competitiveness of the ride.
Enjoyment factor zero.
I didn't complain. I just didn't ever join them again. Simples.
I’ve been that person too.
I recognised it was my problem, not the club’s problem, so I found another club instead where I fitted in much better.
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Happened to me once. I turned up for a ride with a group I knew nothing about. Didn't know any of them. Consequently, I spent three hours of a Sunday morning turning myself inside out, yo-yoing off the back.
I was a fairly fit cyclist in his early 50s, but not mentally at ease with the macho competitiveness of the ride.
Enjoyment factor zero.
I didn't complain. I just didn't ever join them again. Simples.
I’ve been that person too.
I recognised it was my problem, not the club’s problem, so I found another club instead where I fitted in much better.
Exactly. It was my mistake. Not their problem.
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@ de Sisti
You have done nothing "wrong".
If I could make a couple of observations (which may or may not be wrong) based on your recent information:-
14mph may be your club's slowest group, though I'm not sure if you mean average over the ride or general cycling speed. That is certainly not slow for the age group you describe for these ladies. When cycling clubs talk about their slow group the often mean their slowest group which is not the same thing at all.
Secondly, who told you about the prowess of these runners? Any female who can run a half marathon in 1 30 at the age of mid-fifties is likely to be an international*. Or did they mean they used to be that fast when they were younger?
* possibly even a world record holder - I haven't checked!
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I don't think I could average 14mph over a reasonable distance other than on a race track...
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When I ran a "beginners/social" group I specifically said speed of the slowest and for those that asked I said expect 12-14mph depending on who turns up. The group was usually 4-5 and the distance around 20-30 miles.
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The name '14 mph' is just a name, aspirational, but nothing more. I suppose we generally achieve an average of between 12 - 14. The club could revert back to the naming convention of the early 2000s; A, B, C, D, etc, etc, but that is for the committe to decide.
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I don't think I could average 14mph over a reasonable distance other than on a race track...
But for a racing club, it’s a fairly relaxed pace.
It sounds like the root of the problem is these women not understanding the nature of the club. And their insensitivity to the problem they are causing to other members.
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The other thing is how good people are at drafting and sitting in groups. If you can do that well then you are more comfortable in a group that's going faster than you can go on your own.
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Many other activity clubs will have a range of categories of ability, which will usually go right down to a beginners or social level. In that last group the emphasis will be on participating, and there being a space for everyone pretty much regardless of ability.
Road cycling is possibly unusual in having clubs which don't maintain that "bottom rung". It would be very very unusual for a running group for example, to not support this social / beginner run.
I fully understand how you ended up in the situation but with 20/20 hindsight the best time to clarify would have been much sooner after they first joined in?
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The name '14 mph' is just a name, aspirational, but nothing more.
Well that's just stupid, isn't it?
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I fully understand how you ended up in the situation but with 20/20 hindsight the best time to clarify would have been much sooner after they first joined in?
Yes, that is very true. I was just trying to be helpful in encouraging them to experience club cycling.
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...I was just trying to be helpful in encouraging them to experience club cycling.
Frankly, it's why I ride alone 99% of the time. I choose to ride at my own pace for my own reasons and don't expect anyone else to match it regardless of whether I'm faster or slower. "Club cycling," for me, is everything I don't want in a ride. I'm not competitive, or racing, and I rarely want to talk to anyone. In fact I recall an incident written about in the ACF days where a club 'chased down' and laughed at a solo cyclist that they didn't know simply because he'd had the temerity to ride past them wearing a team kit, which was all considered great fun by the group. That's appalling, and another reason I don't like clubs.
You did the right thing. If they want social bimbles, they need to find a group that accommodates that. If they want to join a road club, and the club says "Here are our criteria" then they should meet them, or they could start their own club.* They clearly don't wish to accommodate your established criteria so frankly they're not compatible with your group, and if they're incapable of understanding that I wouldn't see their 'disapproval' as a loss at all. They need to work out what they want from their cycling and do that.
*Which would be another club I wouldn't join. See, it's easy!
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Many other activity clubs will have a range of categories of ability, which will usually go right down to a beginners or social level. In that last group the emphasis will be on participating, and there being a space for everyone pretty much regardless of ability.
Road cycling is possibly unusual in having clubs which don't maintain that "bottom rung". It would be very very unusual for a running group for example, to not support this social / beginner run.
I fully understand how you ended up in the situation but with 20/20 hindsight the best time to clarify would have been much sooner after they first joined in?
ERm, it was a few years ago (heck, more than 20, pre Park Run), but I went out for a run with a York club. Carefully checked with them that they accommodated new/returning slow runners. Me and a guy recovering from knee surgery were new.
Set off together. After a couple of km, the leader asked if person X would mind accompanying the two newbies on a gentler run.
9km (total) later, we got back. Knee man was reduced to walking multiple times, I kept having to call our lead back. Never joined them again.
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@Redshift, thank your for your comments. Two of the three ladies have written to the club, complaining that they weren't being catered for (in terms at riding at their pace :jurek: . The third sent me a text, wanting to "clear the air". She wanted to know if she was still able to ride with the group. I told her that nobody said she could not ::-) .
She said her first joy was still running and with her full-time job, she didn't have the time for
more cycling and that some members in our group (the slowest) had electric-assist bike*. I said that is fine and that they were using them on the hilly ride. I also pointed out that cycle club members have cycling as their first joy, have full-time jobs and are more likely to be a stronger cyclist than she was.
Fair enough, she took it on board and said she'd learn from the points myself and the club road captain put to her.
As I previously mentioned, my act of trying to get these ladies into our cycling club (after they expressed an interest back in May 2023 has backfired and slapped me in the face).
* None of her business, as it doesn't affect her.
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As I previously mentioned, my act of trying to get these ladies into our cycling club (after they expressed an interest back in May 2023 has backfired and slapped me in the face).
Well, at least one of them has shown an interest in clearing the air, which is positive.
I hope you get the backing of the club over this in their response to the complaints. You need them to take this out of your hands, wouldn't be fair to leave you to deal with it single-handedly.
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As I previously mentioned, my act of trying to get these ladies into our cycling club (after they expressed an interest back in May 2023 has backfired and slapped me in the face).
Well, at least one of them has shown an interest in clearing the air, which is positive.
I hope you get the backing of the club over this in their response to the complaints. You need them to take this out of your hands, wouldn't be fair to leave you to deal with it single-handedly.
The thing is, I mentioned it to members of the committee several weeks ago. But I think it was
up to me to sort it out.
The wife of the road captain rides is in our slowest group and she has (I discovered on Saturday)
previously mentioned it to him, but he and other members of the committee did not realise the
severity of the issue.
I think the problem goes back a few years. The slower end of the club was struggling; trying
to find someone to lead that ride was always problematic. It was seen as a "poison chalice" when
one of the faster riders was asked to sacrifice a ride to lead the slower group.
During a committee meeting they came up with the idea of having one person lead on a regular
basis, who would be a focal point for newer riders and would have the autonomy to choose a route
and cafe destination that did not have to align with the other other faster rider groups.
The name was changed to "Social Group", to make it more appealing to newer riders and help
boost the slower end.
In the opinion of everyone at the club it has has been a success. But with different road captains
since then, the latest one decided that 'Social' was implying that the slowest group was being
seen as a separate entity to the rest of the road scene, so a name change was appropriate,
hence the (aspirational) speed moniker being adopted.
The committee members are now in the process of replying to the two disgruntled ladies and professionally rebutting their criticisms.
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Our 'social ride' is advertised as for those who can maintain 14mph. Given that basic requirement, it's no-drop in that we'll stop for any mechanicals or other problems. If the mechanicals are too frequent, a word might be had.
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I’ve never been a member of a cycling club* (here isn’t the same!). But it seems to me that “x mph” is a better name than “social”. The latter implies being able to have a conversation, but that’s very dependent on fitness and comfort with group riding. In running “easy” runs are much more of a thing than I perceive in cycling clubs, but I’ve certainly been running with colleagues where the pace was easy for them and my fastest run of the week. I’d also expect some mingling in a social event, but that apparently wasn’t happening.
I’m glad there’s some bridge building and not just you sorting it out alone going on.
* the uniforms and emphasis on competition aren’t really my thing
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The third sent me a text, wanting [/size]to "clear the air". She wanted to know if she was still able to ride with the group. I told her that nobody said she could not ::-) .
Interesting. there's obviously a slight difference of feeling amongst the three riders. After the dust has settled, this lady has gone away and thought, 'maybe I could keep up if I wanted too', either that or she fancies the idea of trying too. The carrot of a challenge.
Very difficult to please everybody. You have to have some kind of framework. It's easier up the chain of course as the less capable riders in the faster groups simply drop down to the next group, no problem......until you get to the 'social' group, then there's nowhere to go, other than to drop out! The same works in reverse of course. Faster riders ascend through the groups until they get to the top, then get hacked off because other riders are not quick enough to ride at their pace...and so leave!
I've never been part part of a cycling club, never liked the idea, it doesn't really suit my 'loner' nature, although I'm sure my riding would have improved a lot had I allowed myself to be.
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14mph probably qualifies as social, although it's not hanging about. Our weekend cafe rides vary between 12-15mph depending on season, and include psyclepaths and a bit of pootling. The "normal" club runs I went on in the 90s, which were a bit of a stretch for the first few weeks, almost always averaged 15.5mph. However, 15.5mph means about 18mph on a flat clear road. This is slow enough that you can sit sheltered at the back and eat, but fast enough that you need to put in a bit of effort if you're at the front.
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1. Running fitness isn't the same as cycling fitness. I say that as a triathlete. I'm shit at running. Super slow. I hate it. The bike is my best part. No amount of training can turn someone who has a natural facility for one but not the other into someone who excels at both. If you do excel at both, may I recommend a trial with one of the national multisport teams.
2. This sounds a lot like a mismatch between expectations and reality, compounded by reality being altered to meet expectations for a period.
3. The way you say ladies throughout makes me wonder what the gender balance of the club is. Were you going out of your way to be welcoming because the club is heavily skewed towards male and you were trying to address an imbalance? Might that have led you to persevere with them longer than you would have done had they been men? It really jumped out to me that you refer to your existing club members in a way that makes it impossible to determine the gender (other than the chairman's wife, whose identity is given in relation to the chairman, presumably her husband, rather than being "an existing female club member" or even just "an existing member" who also rides in the slow group, and the chairman is her husband so she would have had opportunity to mention it to him).
4. The ride was previously called the Social? Was it called that when they joined? If so, that comes with an expectation it's about pootling along having a chat, rather than trying to achieve a particular speed. It also suggests it's a group that even the racing snakes could join if they didn't want to beast themselves but wanted to focus more on the social aspect of club membership for a change. If the ride is a social ride, it shouldn't be about keeping up. Or, if it requires keeping up, then expectations should be set at the start. "Yes, we have a social ride, but this is a racing club, so even our social rides average around 14-16mph (23-25kph), which is not slow, and you would need to keep up with that. We might wait for you the first time so you don't get lost on your come and try, but if that's too fast for you, may I recommend joining a local Breeze ride? I can give you the details."
5. Of course they objected to the name change. If I joined a club that had a social ride, where the group waited for me, where the focus was apparently on spending time together, and then changed the group to having a target speed, which wasn't what I signed up for and which I knew I wouldn't be able to meet, I'd be upset about not being asked my opinion as well. It sounds to me like they thought they were part of the club but the rest of the club always treated them as the newbies and not proper members.
6. Cycling clubs have a reputation for being aggressive and niche-ridden, and unwelcoming to women. This won't have helped. However, if you have a club website, I think you could probably help yourselves a lot by having a comprehensive FAQ that explains what all the different groups are, what the expectations are for each, and clearly setting out the drop policy. Base this on what the various rides actually do, rather than what they are expected to do, or what they might be prepared to do until they get fed up.
7. I don't think this is your fault, but it's not the women's fault, either. They appear to have developed a misunderstanding of the club based on their initial experience. It is most likely not the club for them. At that age, they are either menopausal or post-menopausal, and that really affects your ability to get fit for speed and hills. Most women don't know how to maintain their fitness through that time of their life, never mind increase it. Even if those run times are accurate, cycling is a whole different kettle of haddock (see 1), and it would take concentrated effort, decent nutrition, focused cross-training, and determination to go from being an easy pootler to keeping pace with a faster group, particularly if group riding skills are also lacking. I feel for them. They need to join a club that is specifically geared towards people like them, and that means finding one that matches what they want to get out of it -- I suspect for the two who are most upset, this was really about safety in numbers, not having to think of their own routes, not having to think about navigation, and having something to get them on their bikes at a specific time rather than doing something else instead.
"Could I join your club?" should always be answered with, "Well, what are your goals in joining a club? We may or may not be the club for you."
Sam
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Some people are just inveterate pootlers on a bike, regardless of other athletic abilities, and it sounds like for at least 2 of the 3 concerned here, that's the case. Given the stated aims of the group (and the aims of the other group members), it's the wrong milieu for them.
It sounds like they value the spade work of someone else choosing a route etc. If this is in the UK, maybe direct them to a CTC social group or one of the British Cycling Breeze rides?
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My use of the term "ladies" was in no way derogatory and was just a discriptor to identify them
(erhaps my O-level standard English should have been better). Our club has a healthy percentage
of female riders who all ride strongly within their respective groups.
Upon joing our club, all new members are provided with a link to our website, which outlines expections and repsponsibilites for everyone who rides with us. We hope that they will take the time to read it.
I'll drop out of this thread now as I'm becoming stressed having to justify the way I acted.
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You don't have to justify your actions. I assumed the point of posting was to see if there was a way to avoid such situations in future. Apologies for contributing to any stress you have felt arising from this difficult situation.
Sam
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But it seems to me that “x mph” is a better name than “social”.
Agreed, as long as it actually goes at x mph, rather than being 'aspirational' or 'self-deprecating'.
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As long as it makes clear how that speed is measured (cruising on the flat? average over the whole ride? does it include breaks, audax style, or only moving time?), maybe so. But even then, the same group of cyclists are likely achieve different speeds on a hilly ride than a flat one (and noting De Sisti lives in Cheltenham, between the Cotswolds and the Vale of Gloucester) and at different times of year. So if a a ride is actually social, stopping at the top of every hill, letting people have a breather, plenty of cafe breaks, etc) then social might be a better name than x mph. They're indicative of different attitudes, rather than different speeds necessarily.
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4. The ride was previously called the Social? Was it called that when they joined? If so, that comes with an expectation it's about pootling along having a chat, rather than trying to achieve a particular speed.
My understanding is that in cycling club terms, "social" simply means riding in a group with no specific training focus. Usually with a cafe stop. As opposed to "training" rides, which are often solo and usually purposeful (eg built around intervals, hill reps etc).
A group training ride will focus on aspects of group riding like echelons and through-and-off, whereas a social ride will have no expectations of anyone being obliged to take their turn on the front, for example.
There's no reason why you couldn't have a 20mph+ social ride.
Or, if it requires keeping up, then expectations should be set at the start. "Yes, we have a social ride, but this is a racing club, so even our social rides average around 14-16mph (23-25kph), which is not slow, and you would need to keep up with that. We might wait for you the first time so you don't get lost on your come and try, but if that's too fast for you, may I recommend joining a local Breeze ride? I can give you the details."
Agreed. The root of the problem is a misunderstanding of terms. Changing the name of the ride to 14mph might have been an attempt to realign perceptions of the nature of the ride but I'm not sure it is genuinely a more helpful designation because it doesn't address the ride's purpose - a 14mph could be a training ride (depending on riders' ability, ride structure and distance). There are probably better ways to address this issue.
It sounds to me like they thought they were part of the club but the rest of the club always treated them as the newbies and not proper members...
7. I don't think this is your fault, but it's not the women's fault, either. They appear to have developed a misunderstanding of the club based on their initial experience.
If the three of them were perpetually off the back of the group as De Sisti says, they really should have worked it out for themselves a bit sooner.
"Could I join your club?" should always be answered with, "Well, what are your goals in joining a club? We may or may not be the club for you."
Agreed.
Unfortunately, De Sisti has become a victim of his good intentions.
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And if you do join a club and find it too fast, either bugger off or speed up but don't expect groups to slow down just for you.
We have two kinds of club here, BTW: clubs that aim at races, sportifs & so forth, and touring clubs. The rides the latter put on usually have short, medium and long options and you do whichever one you like at your own speed. Strikes me the three elephants ladies in question would do better in such a club.
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14mph seems a sensible and informative ride descriptor. Enough people have either a phone/GPS or a cycle computer to know if they can maintain 14mph. Social on the other hand means different things to different people, and so newcomers may misinterpret it as 'bimbling pace'.
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Are the ride descriptions aimed at newcomers or those who are already club members? I'd presume the latter, unless it's specifically marked as a newbies' ride.
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Numeric speed bands "on the flat" do not work to differentiate riders of different ability in a road club because (a) riding in an even moderately tight group you can achieve much faster speeds than riding alone and (b) mismatched groups are usually able to stay together on the flat, but the group falls to bits on the climbs, often drastically so.
Really groups should be differentiated by W/kg which corresponds closely to speed up hills, but in the absence of that most group names and numbers are really proxies for "That group contains Greg and Dave, who I know are about the same speed as me", which is fine for regulars but useless for newbies, or for that one week both Greg and Dave are away.
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Numeric speed bands "on the flat" do not work to differentiate riders of different ability in a road club because (a) riding in an even moderately tight group you can achieve much faster speeds than riding alone and (b) mismatched groups are usually able to stay together on the flat, but the group falls to bits on the climbs, often drastically so.
This is true, but it generally only happens in any meaningful way on large climbs, of which there generally aren't more than two or three on your average club run* and it is therefore feasible for riders to assemble at the top of a big climb if people drop off.
In the club I occasionally ride in there are three speed groups. Sometimes these groups might subdivide again.
There only time I've encountered a problem is with one particular dickhead who doesn't ride for months then turns up and expects to ride in the the group he always rides in (the middle one) because he's "not a shit rider".
Well, he is pretty shit and If the ride starts with a major climb (not unlikely if you live in a Cotswold valley)he drops off straight away.
We are then faced with the dilemma of wondering if he's decided to ride appropriately with the slowest group. If you make the mistake of thinking he has then 30 minutes later he appears shouting, swearing and screaming that we didn't wait for him. Absolute selfish twat.
*Club in Cotswolds, so generally hillier rides than most I'd guess.
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Obviously, this should be a degree subject.
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The problem arises when there's no other choice of club in your area. I can't ride with clubs anyway these days, as most have a mandatory helmet rule.
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The problem arises when there's no other choice of club in your area. I can't ride with clubs anyway these days, as most have a mandatory helmet rule.
The only times I've tried to join a club (more than one time, more than one club) they've flat out refused to have me on the grounds I only have one eye, so screw the lot of them. But clubs are not obligated to cater to everyone, even if they are the only ones in an area.
Sam
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In the club I occasionally ride in there are three speed groups. Sometimes these groups might subdivide again.
There only time I've encountered a problem is with one particular dickhead who doesn't ride for months then turns up and expects to ride in the the group he always rides in (the middle one) because he's "not a shit rider".
Well, he is pretty shit and If the ride starts with a major climb (not unlikely if you live in a Cotswold valley)he drops off straight away.
We are then faced with the dilemma of wondering if he's decided to ride appropriately with the slowest group. If you make the mistake of thinking he has then 30 minutes later he appears shouting, swearing and screaming that we didn't wait for him. Absolute selfish twat.
LMAO!!!!
Made me laugh anyway!
Mind you, I know how he feels. I've lost count of the number of times I've returned home to arrivee on an audax only to find the controller's hastily washing up the cups and my car is the only one remaining in the car park :-)
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Haven't done a club ride since COVID started and only did them at quite irregular intervals.
When I did, I started with the fast group because it was only going out that day. I think I did quite well, but I soon realised I was out of my league and told the last rider I was going to pack. I was disappointed but it wasn't their fault I couldn't keep up! I got fitter and did more rides with the club's mid-range quite satisfactorily. I did try the slow group but they ambled along too much.
I guess if I go along again they will look at me and my old steelie and send me out with the leisurely crew! It is a great way to discover new and better routes though.
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This is, in part why I'm no longer part of a club.
As a newly diagnosed type 1 diabetic, trying to learn how to manage the condition, I was stopping to test every hour. There were certain twunts in the club, despite the pre ride briefing decided to leave me for dead. Unfortunately the rest decided to follow.
Now a moot point as I have a CGM but that particular a$@ehole is still in the club
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I've never joined or ridden with a club, but when I was starting out distance riding I did a few FNRTTC's. I stopped doing them because I found the policy of "leaving no-one behind" meant I was waiting around at the top of hills (e.g. Ditchling) and, during the winter especially, getting bloody cold (who can forget the night of the horizontal hail :o).
Not complaining - the rides were great fun. Guess I just outgrew them. But going the speed of the slowest can put off other riders off who aren't fast enough to join the next group up (if there is one) but also don't want to be constantly stopping. Of course many others may not mind in the slightest ;)
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I think the trick with FNRTTC, if you’re one of the faster ones; is either dress for and ride easy, or do hill repeats on some hills till the rear makes an appearance.
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I think the trick with FNRTTC, if you’re one of the faster ones; is either dress for and ride easy, or do hill repeats on some hills till the rear makes an appearance.
Absolutely - and as I say it's not meant as a criticism of the FNRTTC'c in any way. They are a unique and fantastic institution and I enjoyed them enormously. Just saying that on club-rides with a similar policy you risk putting off more people than you are encouraging.
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I think the trick with FNRTTC, if you’re one of the faster ones; is either dress for and ride easy, or do hill repeats on some hills till the rear makes an appearance.
Yep, I've been known to do both. Riding towards the back (if not actually TECing) is my preferred approach in cold conditions, as it makes regulating temperature so much easier. Waymarking is a warm-weather activity.