Author Topic: Decisions, decisions... Helios spec + have you got a few things in the bits box?  (Read 27571 times)

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Right... I have hopefully got the columns to line up right in the spreadsheets and have a golden opportunity to actually buy a CrinklyTandem.  It's a one shot deal - I won't be in a position to buy another new bike for quite some time and expensive after-market alterations would be challenging so I want to get it right.  I can actually provide some of the parts and get them fitted as part of the build to save a few quid so there's a few things I'd be interested in if anyone has them in decent nick for a fair price in the bits box - like the rack, a dynamo light, brompton block, grips, brompton front bag etc - or indeed if you've seen something for sale at a brilliant price!

I know that the Helios is the right bike for us.  There's a LBS that is an authorised dealer.  I know that a few local forumites have had their moments with said shop, but to date I've had nothing but good service and they've dealt with my query on this one so far very well indeed.  To the extent that one of the two Helios owners in the place, who has previously said that I can borrow his any time, actually offered to cut down his pilot seatpost for me to try since I can't actually quite get to the bottom of the pedal stroke even on a clown-bike-tandem with a full length seatpost in there!  I think they were a bit perplexed that I said no and said they didn't need to - a Helios is exactly what I need, it's just a question of which model and can I get it at the price point I can sort-of afford.  So it comes down to a spot of jiggling with the spec...

The working spec that I've agreed with the bike shop so far, which comes in at a squeak over what I had mentally put aside, is:

Circe Helios Omnis 8
Upgrade brakes to Avid BB7 MTB - £116 for the pair plus one centrelock/6 bolt adapter@20quid
Upgrade to dynohub (SP SD8 6V 3W disc mount, black) and B&M Cyo IQ N+ for about £170 (once you count the hub, spokes cut to length and the light itself)
Add mudguards - SKS 20", black for about 30 quid
Topeak Super Tourist disc fit in black about 35 quid
Brompton block £15
System EX ED4 black flat pedals for the pilot and System EX 896 flats with Zefal clips/straps at the back - about £30
Flat bars
Ergon GP5 grips/barends £60
Kids stoker saddle and whatever it comes with for the pilot - I've got a spare Selle Italia knocking around that I'll probably use.


I could save a few quid by going for Shimano discs but it makes less than 20 quid difference.  Plus I had them on my hybrid and after 2 years ponied up the dosh for the BB7s.  That one isn't an optional upgrade for me - definitely discs.  Definitely BB7s.

The Brompton block/rack/pedals/mudguards will be needed, and the prices I've been quoted are within a couple of quid of prices I've found online and it isn't worth the faff of sourcing elsewhere for the sake of a quid or two but if you've seen 'em anywhere for a bargain price I'd like to know!

The dynohub and light does add a fair bit and is a bit of a luxury, so I could lose them if I really have to get the price down.

Decision one - gearing
- Alfine 8
- Alfine 11 for £240 extra
- SRAM dual-drive for probably £350 extra (based on the Omnis+ spec and upgrade the brakes from shimano to BB7)

I've never used any of them.  Is it worth the cost of the upgrade? I know a few people here have used them all - what are the advantages?

Decision 2 - bars
I've specced it with flat bars and my favourite Ergon grips/barends.  But am wondering, given how midget I am, if I should maybe get something with a bit more sweep backwards on it... which would probably not work with the barends, so saving 60 quid but losing some hand positions.  I'm not convinced that losing hand positions is critical at this point.  We aren't going to be attempting anything huge in the first year - maybe an aspirational 50 if we can practise enough - and with a newbie pilot and a newbie stoker I suspect I'll need to cover the brakes a lot anyway!  I was perfectly happy on my hybrid with bog standard flats until I got beyond about 50 miles.

Decision 3 - lighting
To dyno-hub or not?
Is the CYO N+ OK?

How much is an upgrade to SPDs?  :demon:

From my experience, I reckon the Cyo N+ will be more than good enough. I'm still using an old IQ Fly, and it's outshone by every Cyo on the road. What's the alternative, the new Luxos? I reckon you'd find the Cyo a massive upgrade from your current lights, and the Luxos would probably be overkill. And a dynohub is worth having, if you ever plan to do any night rides...

Gears - I think it's time to go and count the gearing on your Valencia. What's the lowest gear you've got? I know nowt about hub gears, but I imagine you'll be wanting a significantly lower bottom gear. Go and count the number of teeth on the smallest chainring (it might be printed on, if you're lucky), then the number of teeth on the largest sprocket.

Does the rack have to be that one? I could give you a little-used Tortec Ultralite which fits fine on my Roberts with discs, but a little googling suggests the Helios is a more awkward fitting, so you're probably best off with the disc-specific rack.

I also have some BB7s you could have for cheap, but they're BB7 Roads, so no use to you unless you're going for road bars and levers.

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
SPDs ain't happening.  Because first there would be pain and then there would be death.  I manage to have clipless moments on flat pedals!  So the only place I'll be riding clipless is a stoker seat, since I'll be going down with the bike either way if it gets dropped with me on the back.  Of course, anyone that wants to temporarily fit them up front if they ever borrow the bike is is welcome to.  Hmm.  Acksherly.... should I go for single-sided?  That's a thought. 

It does need to be a disc-specific rack, and I spec'd the Topeak since I already have one of them so the rackpack would be interchangeable.  Having said that - would the Tortec fit the EC's islabike?  I've been meaning to get a rack for that since forever, and if we're going to take a tandem touring in the Spring he'll have to carry some of the luggage on his bike!

BB7 mtb is the way.

I need to think about gear inches, don't I?  Bah.  Why didn't I get Kim to work 'em out for me like I keep threatening to?

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Hah!  Evans/bikepedia to the rescue!  They agree that the Trek Valencia 2010 has
Quote
Shimano C102 front and Shimano Deore rear derailleur, Shimano M361 chainset 48/38/28 tooth chainrings with chainguard and Shimano 11/28 tooth cassette 8 speed

I have no idea how that translates into gear inches or compares with the Alfines/SRAM.  But the lowest gear is low enough even with a touring load and in hills and I don't spin out at the top even with a tailwind and no luggage because my bravery-at-speed runs out before the gears do.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Tandems usually want both lower and higher gears than a solo. I know of a couple of folk running 2 chainrings to an Alfine 8 hub on their solos to widen the gear range but don't know enough about the Helios to know whether that is an option.

Your bottom gear is a nominal 27" and a top gear around 118".

If you match your solo's low gear, the tandem's top gear would be around 83" with the 8sp hub. The Alfine 11 top gear would be around 110".
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Alright then - chainring divided by sprocket multiplied by approximate wheel size gives a lowest gear (in gear inches) of 27" and a highest gear of 118" ! That is quite high, so it's probably best to look at the lower end and get that right.

What are the gear sizes you get with the Helios? Hopefully they quote in gear inches. I'd reckon you'd definitely want lower than that - most tourers with a full load have a bail-out gear a bit lower than that, and it's probably a more urgent need on a tandem.

I'll have a look at the Islabike next time I'm round - it does depend on me getting around to fitting my new* rack to the Roberts, mind.

*I bought it about four months ago.


CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Your bottom gear is a nominal 27" and a top gear around 118".

If you match your solo's low gear, the tandem's top gear would be around 83" with the 8sp hub. The Alfine 11 top gear would be around 110".

I'd need to match the solo's lowest gear, and wouldn't object to it being a bit lower for those times when there is nothing at all being added by the 6 year old stoker and a hill appears.  Currently the big ring on the solo gets very little use indeed.  Having said that, when I was riding a lot that did change.

The 11 would basically give me near enough the range I've got now.  Hmm.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
I've said it before: You need to think seriously about crank length, because that's something that becomes ludicrously expensive to change afterwards, but not so much when you get the dealer to do it on a new bike.  I guarantee that 170mm cranks are too long for you, that you won't regret 160mm (the smallest size that's easily obtained), and would probably benefit from shorter (but finding out how short is NP-hard, due to all the unobtanium involved).  Same goes for stokers, naturally.  Crank-shorteners might be a reasonable botch for SmallestCub purposes (I don't see him managing on 170s for a few years yet).

J Random Leggy YACFer would have no problem riding on your 160mm cranks.  They might not even notice the difference.  It's like saddle height: too much is less forgiving than too little.  10mm shorter cranks raise the gain ratio of your given gearing by what feels like a couple of inches (gear inches are a silly unit that doesn't account for crank length).

Dynamo hub makes good sense for the same sort of reasons.  The 60lux (non-'R') Cyo is probably the one to go for given the low fork crown with a 20" wheel.  Realistically I don't see you doing the sort of distances that make USB charging worthwhile for a couple of years, and lights are an easy retrofit and always getting better/cheaper.  Cyos Just Work ('N' means "has a switch", 'plus' means "has a standlight capacitor").  A dynamo light that fits to the plate on the rear rack wouldn't be a bad idea either, if only because they're always perfectly aligned and tend to have lovely reflectors built in, for absolutely zero faff.  OTOH, that's an easy retrofit too.

I reckon the Alfine 11 is your best bet, set up so the lowest gear is somewhere in the low 20" range.  It's a tandem, so you'll reach escape velocity pretty quickly on the downhills anyway, and 100" is more than enough for mere mortals to bomb along with the mythical fenland tailwind.  Not worth going to Dual-drive (and associated dérailleur-related maintenance) for the higher gears that gives.  Far more important to gear it low enough that you can drag a tired Cub plus camping kit up a Bastard Hill.

BB7s aren't even a question.

I'm sure someone can dig out some tatty SPD pedals for you to keep in the bits box, so cleated volunteer stokers (or indeed captains) can get a spanner out if it matters to them.  Sorted.  Might be worth having some of those partial toeclips on your captain's pedals too.  Not enough foot retention for pulling upwards or clipless moments, but should reduce the chances of leg damage from Teethgrinder Ultralite moments.

Tandem top tip: a length of elastic (3mm zipcord sort of thing) run between captain and stoker's pedal platforms on both sides will make the pedals self-righting, for ease of toeclip operation.

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
See, Valencia has 170s and I've never found them a problem.  The one time I put the seat up and had a go on the EldestCub's bike, which has 155s, I hated them.  Not as much as I hated them with the seat down at Cub height, mind. 

I wonder what cranks jogler's GD has on her trek.  That was a bike that felt Just Right.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
See, Valencia has 170s and I've never found them a problem.

Yeah, but that's what everyone says before they try appropriate length cranks.  Riding position seems to make a difference too - I certainly prefer longer cranks on my upwrongs than I do on the 'bents.


Quote
I wonder what cranks jogler's GD has on her trek.  That was a bike that felt Just Right.

Worth finding out...

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
165s, apparently.

If some M520s with the plastic platform things in are any use (the mechanism broke on one side, so I put the platforms on to make sure I didn't use that side) you're welcome to them!


Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
If some M520s with the plastic platform things in are any use (the mechanism broke on one side, so I put the platforms on to make sure I didn't use that side) you're welcome to them!

I don't recommend those plastic platforms as a primary way of using a pedal.  They're a bit small and slippery compared to decent flats.  Good for popping to the shops or riding unclipped to get a foot down quickly in bike shoes.

Would work as a set of SPDs to have on hand for cleaty cyclists, though.

Good point - I rarely used the platform bit, but I can see it would be slippy when wet.

For single-sided, I like my M324s. They're metal, so relatively grippy.

Oscar's dad

  • aka Septimus Fitzwilliam Beauregard Partridge
We have a tandem.  A few words of wisdom based on experience ...

1.  You can't have low enough gears on a tandem.  Tandems don't roll up hills like a solo, you will have to winch it up every inch.  I imagine you will have children on the back.  Young children are light and like pedalling hard - its fun.  As they get older they get heavier and won't pedal so hard - tandeming is no longer cool.  You might think you've chosen low enough gears.  Have another look, can you get even lower gears?  You'll need them.

2.  You can't have good enough brakes on a tandem.  Whilst tandems are slow up hills, they go like the clappers down hill.

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Which again is leading towards the Alfine 11 and a careful selection of sprockets to ensure an epically low bottom gear.

Brakes aren't really under discussion.  It will be BB7s.  One of the things that doesn't work for me with the tagalong is the relatively poor braking performance with the rim brakes on the cheap'n'cheerful towbike.  It means that I am very very tentative about letting any speed build up.

Technically I ought to choose between the Alfine 11 upgrade and the dynohub, since the two together will take me over budget.  But if I lose the Ergon grips I will get it to within 200 quid of what I'd allocated, and that is probably do-able.  Either of those hub upgrades would be an expensive and involved upgrade down the line, whereas changing bars/grips is relatively straightforward and I reckon that if I want to investigate alternative arrangements up front if we start riding further there's enough people around here with bars and bits I could borrow and experiment with in return for cake.

So... Alfine 11.  Cable BB7s.  Dyno-hub and Cyo.  Talk to them about crank length and bottom gear ratio.  Need to check what the deal is with a stand too - it occurs to me that I assumed there was one, but actually the spec doesn't explicitly say one way or the other.

Then I need to think about the bits and bobs I need to source.  Some bottle cages.  A stoker bell - I think I have a nice one around somewhere.  Brompton bag for the front might go on my Christmas/birthday list as a 'contributions welcome'.  Rummage through the basket of bits for spare rear lights.

Oscar's dad

  • aka Septimus Fitzwilliam Beauregard Partridge
... to ensure an epically low bottom gear ...

Brakes aren't really under discussion.  It will be BB7s ...

By George, I think she's got it!  :thumbsup:

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
I have been pondering it for nearly two years....

arabella

  • عربللا
  • onwendeð wyrda gesceaft weoruld under heofonum
fwiw the kiddy back tandem I used to have had 26" on the front and 32" on the back for its lowest gear, and 170mm cranks.  With a crossover drive (front chain on the L, crossing over to rear chain apu for maximum oil-on-small-person's trousers options) I doubt anything else would have been an option. 

FTR, I mainly have 160mm cranks but 155 on the fixed which I'm concluding is a bit short but there was a earth of 160mm at £cheap at the time
Any fool can admire a mountain.  It takes real discernment to appreciate the fens.

I'm loving this thread.   Tandem technicality.    :thumbsup:

In my experience go lower in the gearing than on your solo and don't worry about higher.   Not all stokers are the same and you can find yourself with a passenger at the most important time.   

Bikes roll downhill so unless your'e really wanting to press on downhill then there's nothing to worry about with regard to gears, but those BB7's will be life savers.

Not much to add since I don't tandem (I would, Helen won't) but I'd certainly go for the Alfine 11 for the extra range and BB7s are the default option. Having said that, I'll be fitting TRP Spyres to my new frame.
You'll be wanting big rotors. I have two 203mm 6 bolt rotors that you're welcome to.
I'd trade them for cheese scones except that you're already well in credit  :-*

Topeak seatpost rack as a short term fix ? I have one and, again, you're welcome to it.



Oh, what bits are you looking for?

PH

I also have some BB7s you could have for cheap, but they're BB7 Roads, so no use to you unless you're going for road bars and levers.

If you go with these, I have some flat bar road levers you're welcome to for the cost of postage.  These ones, in silver;
http://www.shimano.com/publish/content/global_cycle/en/au/index/products/road/flat_handlebar/product.-code-BL-R550.-type-%7Cbl_road%7Csl_road%7C.html


Definitely get some advice on the gearing options!

I have the Alfine 11 hub on my winter bike which I have modified with the largest sprocket you can get that fits (I used a Nexus 23t one, it has to be the right splined sprocket you can't just substitute any random one). It really isn't that low geared and technically I am outside the warranty for the hub doing this as they don't recommend fitting anything other than the Alfine sprockets to it and the lowest of those is 20t. You cannot change the Alfine chainring for a smaller one without changing the whole crankset. I looked for options and there were none because of the BCD (bolt circle diameter).

Now I can get up chevron climbs on it, but that's on a solo and it is significantly harder work than on my other lower geared bikes. Personally I wouldn't want it on a tandem unless I only planned to ride in pretty flat places  :) The Rohloff would give you much more range options, but of course comes at a hefty price tag.

mcshroom

  • Mushroom
A Helios has a 20" wheel though which should mean the gearing is naturally lower than on a normal bike. Hopefully this will bring the gearing down far enough :)
Climbs like a sprinter, sprints like a climber!