Audax points and rules was: Re: Mersey 24hr 2016

[zigzag]

i've read that it is possible to ride mersey roads as an audax. does it count towards sr? the reason i ask is that i still lack a 600 this season and would use the 24h tt if i can.

[Karla]

Yes it does.

[zigzag]

thank you. does auk need to know about this in advance or i can claim it retrospectively?

[simonp]

thank you. does auk need to know about this in advance or i can claim it retrospectively?

It seems to be automatic.

[Karla]

Wot e said.  Both times I've done one, my points have just appeared.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Somebody goes through the TT results and adds them to the results of 'known AUKs'. Sometimes folk are inadvertently overlooked, who then have to claim.

[Greenbank]

You can average more than 30kph and still get points too.

(That'll never be a problem for me...)

[marcusjb]

You can average more than 30kph and still get points too.

(That'll never be a problem for me...)

But only up to 7 points (720km = 24*30) to avoid clashes with other AUK regs.

 It is that lack of the extra point that quashes my motivation to put in an 800km+ performance.........

[Greenbank]

But only up to 7 points (720km = 24*30) to avoid clashes with other AUK regs.

I don't understand why though. Why not award the person who did > 800km 8 points?

All 4 people who got 7 points last year did more than 720km, so they're already over the 30kph average speed and the whole point of a TT is to race (yourself/the clock) and it's not an Audax so I don't see how it can clash with other regs.

Maybe someone knows the reasoning behind it.

[marcusjb]

Just the same as if a team rode an 800km Arrow. They would only be awarded 7 points.

There is a specific reg that states 30kph is the maximum allowed, so awarding more points for a ride that exceeds that would be in contradiction of that reg (despite the actual fact that they have exceeded that speed).

[rob]

Points for the Mersey seem to be automatic.   I had to put a claim in for the ESCA - once the results sheet was published - but it was processed in a couple of days.

[Frank9755]

Mine were automatic.

[Greenbank]

Just the same as if a team rode an 800km Arrow. They would only be awarded 7 points.

There is a specific reg that states 30kph is the maximum allowed, so awarding more points for a ride that exceeds that would be in contradiction of that reg (despite the actual fact that they have exceeded that speed).

Sure, I understand that the regs limit things (although looking through them I can't see anything other than reg 12.9.3 itself that would apply to a 24TT ride, the rest of the regs apply themselves to BR/BRM/BP rides which a 24TT is not), but the regs don't have the history behind it. That's the bit I'm interested in. Why are the points limited to 7 for a 24TT performance?

[Karla]

Dunno,  but I was sceptical that the limit even existed in fact (as opposed to in yacf folklore), so I went to AUKweb and checked the points.  John Warnock got 7 points in 2011, for his 516 mile ride against Andy Wilkinson.  So it turns out that the 7 point limit does actually exist. 

[LittleWheelsandBig]

So now you know, YACF folklore is usually right about Audax stuff, if you ask the right people.

The 7 point limit is for the blindingly obvious reason that the longest 24hr brevet distance that can be AUK-recognised is 720km. You can ride further in a British 24hr TT but AUK won't recognise more than 7 points.

[marcusjb]

Reg 9.7.2 is the one.

So, as above, the maximum distance that can technically be ridden under the AUK banner in 24 hours is 720km.

The arrow rules specially state the 720km and the 24 rules (in the auk rules) specifically state 7 points max.

Them's the rules. I suspect that those riding an 8 pointer are not going to be overly bothered by the missing point as they are clearly at the very pointy end of business in the 24.

[hippy]

Them's the rules. I suspect that those riding an 8 pointer are not going to be overly bothered by the missing point as they are clearly at the very pointy end of business in the 24.

Yep. I've never given a hoot about AUK points. I did quite like the trophy you carried back for me though.

[Exit Stage Left]

What happens at the other end of the speed scale is of more interest. Less than 360km shouldn't register any points. The Mersey Roads used only to record the distance of those who made it to the finish circuit, but the results now include those who 'pack'. I suppose those who do more than 360km, but don't do the full 24 hours, could decline the points.

[Greenbank]

The 7 point limit is for the blindingly obvious reason that the longest 24hr brevet distance that can be AUK-recognised is 720km. You can ride further in a British 24hr TT but AUK won't recognise more than 7 points.

Sure, but that still sounds (to me) like the justification is "because regs". The whole 30kph thing came from the need to quell the idea that Audax could be construed as racing, and to make it easier for validation to occur. It just seems odd to me to apply the same rules to something which is quite at odds with that. Maybe I should just drop it, but...

Reg 9.7.2 is the one.

That applies to AUK events (specifically BP/BR/BRM rides). A 24TT isn't one of them.

Reg 10.1 also allows the speed/distances to be raised for BRM events if that's what ACP or LRM say. I guess this is for things like the Vedettes at PBP which have no upper speed limit. A 39h PBP will still be validated by ACP and recognised by Audax UK despite it being >30kph.

So the rule exists except where there's another reason to ignore it. Why not ignore that reg for 24h TTs too given they seem to be in the same spirit as the Vedettes at PBP?

[Greenbank]

What happens at the other end of the speed scale is of more interest. Less than 360km shouldn't register any points. The Mersey Roads used only to record the distance of those who made it to the finish circuit, but the results now include those who 'pack'. I suppose those who do more than 360km, but don't do the full 24 hours, could decline the points.

You need a minimum of 360km to get any points.

12.9.3 AUK members who ride and appear on the result sheet of an official 24-hour time trial road ride organised under the rules of Cycling Time Trials or any successor body, may claim 1 point for every 100 km ridden in that event to a maximum of 7 points provided the member covers a minimum distance of 360km. Subject to a claim being made by the member, such points will count towards AUK individual and club awards for the AUK season within which the 24-hour ride occurs.

[rob]

before this thread disappears up its own proverbial.....

Can we move the AUK rule debates elsewhere ?


Thanks

[marcusjb]

Yep, sorry.

It is there in the regs, black and white, if anyone wants to change it, then you know what to do.

[rob]

zigzag asked if he could use the 24hr as a 600 for his SR.   Yes he can.   Nothing else to discuss.

How is everyone's training going ?

[LittleWheelsandBig]

The 7 point limit is for the blindingly obvious reason that the longest 24hr brevet distance that can be AUK-recognised is 720km. You can ride further in a British 24hr TT but AUK won't recognise more than 7 points.

Sure, but that still sounds (to me) like the justification is "because regs". The whole 30kph thing came from the need to quell the idea that Audax could be construed as racing, and to make it easier for validation to occur. It just seems odd to me to apply the same rules to something which is quite at odds with that. Maybe I should just drop it, but...

Reg 9.7.2 is the one.

That applies to AUK events (specifically BP/BR/BRM rides). A 24TT isn't one of them.

Reg 10.1 also allows the speed/distances to be raised for BRM events if that's what ACP or LRM say. I guess this is for things like the Vedettes at PBP which have no upper speed limit. A 39h PBP will still be validated by ACP and recognised by Audax UK despite it being >30kph.

So the rule exists except where there's another reason to ignore it. Why not ignore that reg for 24h TTs too given they seem to be in the same spirit as the Vedettes at PBP?

The 30kph max is an international Audaxing standard. Only PBP allows greater average speed and only because of its history as a professional race beginning in 1891. The first PBP brevets were only in 1931.

You can ride longer than 720km in an AUK arrow (e.g. Hoppo did 361km in a 12 hour AUK dart once) but AUK won't credit your team with more than 720km. Same basis for this rule.

[Delph Cyclist]

zigzag asked if he could use the 24hr as a 600 for his SR.   Yes he can.   Nothing else to discuss.

How is everyone's training going ?

For those with lesser capabilities, the 24TT can also count as a 400 for SR purposes.  600 is beyond what I can hope to achieve in 24 hours, but I've done a few 500s over the years.  It is hard to find other 5-point Audax rides, although there is not much call for 500s except perhaps in the year 2000 when we had a special Randonneur 2000 badge for 200 + 300 + 400 + 500 + 600.

When AUK voted to recognise rides in the 24TT (a discussion that wasn't without controversy) the principal of a 7 point limit was adopted in response to those who feared we were encouraging racing.  We're not of course, we're encouraging long distance cycling.

Those riders in the finish results who are recognised as Audax Members will have their points automatically added to their Results.  An email to the Recorder to remind him of your achievement can sometimes be a good idea.