Audax start times

[caerau]

Isn't a 'rolling' start kind of de-rigeur on a bike ride?


 


 

[Arry-R]

A few years ago the very knowledgeable man on these matters Francis Cooke Cooke pointed out and quoting from the regs
That the intermediate times of controls were merely based on min and max.  when riding 600, s and wanting a decent nights sleep it has not mattered being out of time at a couple of controls.  obviously you have these timings for the benefit of controllers but that can be easily managed.  long may we have flexible organisers. This can be used on shorter distances provided you finish on time.

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

I did have an idea of having a flexible start time so that riders could all aim to finish at the same time.  The thinking started around a finish time of (say) 11pm on 31 December so that all riders could celebrate the New Year having completed a 200k BR.  (The idea was scratched as the thought of having people out on bikes at a time with the highest concentration of alcohol impaired drivers didn't make sense).  But it might be something that someone would like to use.  Riders can start when they like (with the earliest start time 13h40m before the proposed finish s0 in the above instance 9.20am but if they felt like they should whistle around in 8 hours then they could start at 3pm.  This would make the later controls easier to man....

[Arry-R]

Fantastic

[Ian H]

Interesting idea. An event with a defined finish time, riders to start at times according to how long they think they'll take.

[Graeme]

I really like that idea.  At 11pm on NYE it is likely there will be the lowest concentration of drunk drivers... they'll all be at parties or pubs.  And one of the nice things after an audax is the story sharing.

So you'd invite riders to estimate their pace and offer them a start time...

When I organised the 200, 100 and 50 on the same day, I staggered the starts so that the 100 and 200 would meet for lunch and the 50s would have some company when they finished.  Best laid plans etc.  But it was an idea.

I'd love to start a ride knowing that I'd be meeting more and more riders as the event progressed rather than the other way round.

[Peter]

And a nice anti-competitive touch might be to forbid the mentioning of your start time, at the finish!

[teethgrinder]

I did have an idea of having a flexible start time so that riders could all aim to finish at the same time.  The thinking started around a finish time of (say) 11pm on 31 December so that all riders could celebrate the New Year having completed a 200k BR.  (The idea was scratched as the thought of having people out on bikes at a time with the highest concentration of alcohol impaired drivers didn't make sense).  But it might be something that someone would like to use.  Riders can start when they like (with the earliest start time 13h40m before the proposed finish s0 in the above instance 9.20am but if they felt like they should whistle around in 8 hours then they could start at 3pm.  This would make the later controls easier to man....

That's similar to a more basic idea of mine. That the organiser designates a venue, then it's up to riders to plan their route, distance and starting point and it's done DIY style. Much like the AGM weekend. We all have a social gathering/meal then either start a new ride (or not) or continue with the one we're on. There could, of course, be a set of routes leading to and from the venue.

[Graeme]

FUCK.

That's close to an Arrow plan.  And I have zero success with that concept.  Walk on everyone... nothing to look at here.  Mark, stop talking to the BBC air ambulance crew.

[Deano]

I fell off on the way back.....at least I got to enjoy the scenery.    Almost 20 years ago, that.

Rob fell at about 3pm on the return IIRC. I was entering the services and he was in a pack that was leaving.
Patrick Field, on a recumbent, also experienced an involuntary dismount.

Don't tell me people are still falling off at Bedale!
Talk about an accident black grey spot. 

Dunno Francis, we were remembering 1995...

[ETA] Looking at Street View (image 2011) they probably still are. 
http://goo.gl/maps/3uVLB

Still claiming victims as of less than a year ago:

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/local/northyorkshire/bedale/10741881.Wensleydale_Railway_level_crossing_to_be_replaced_after_veteran_cyclist_smashes_her_elbow/?ref=rss

According to that report, they were making some changes, but I haven't ridden it in years - everyone vaguely local knows to avoid it.

[Graeme]

I fell off ...

Rob fell ....

Don't tell me people are still falling off at Bedale....

...remembering 1995...

Still claiming victims...

D'Oh - I didn't know it was notorious.  On a group C2C2C ride I was following a friend and watching to make sure he crossed this safely.  He did and so did everyone else.  I was then last on the road and ... splat ... sideways onto the tarmac.  I tried to keep it quiet because I thought it was my fault.  Glad to see it is being replaced.  Even spikes and rotating blades would be an improvement.

[frankly frankie]

That the intermediate times of controls were merely based on min and max.  when riding 600, s and wanting a decent nights sleep it has not mattered being out of time at a couple of controls.  obviously you have these timings for the benefit of controllers but that can be easily managed.  long may we have flexible organisers. This can be used on shorter distances provided you finish on time.

Slight mis-reading, I think - intermediate times still have declared 'opening' and 'closing' times and these should be respected**.  It's just that (by AUK's current regs) these times don't actually have to be pro-rata with the min and max speeds.  They can be altered where other factors come into play.  For example, the cafe opening  time at the 1st control, might dictate when that control opens, not the max speed.

If an organiser is prepared to be flexible on the day, that's another thing entirely.

** I have long campaigned, but without success, for unmanned (by AUK) intermediate controls to not have declared opening and closing times - I simply don't see any point to it.  Who cares what time you pass through a 24h garage?  They could perhaps just have 'guide' times so you know you're on schedule.

[The Seldom Killer]

There's a very similar crossing in Garve up in Scotland and it comes with a mandatory dismount sign for cyclists. It is, so far, the only dismount sign that I agree with.

[rob]

I fell off on the way back.....at least I got to enjoy the scenery.    Almost 20 years ago, that.

Rob fell at about 3pm on the return IIRC. I was entering the services and he was in a pack that was leaving.
Patrick Field, on a recumbent, also experienced an involuntary dismount.

Don't tell me people are still falling off at Bedale!
Talk about an accident black grey spot. 

Dunno Francis, we were remembering 1995...

[ETA] Looking at Street View (image 2011) they probably still are. 
http://goo.gl/maps/3uVLB

Still claiming victims as of less than a year ago:

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/local/northyorkshire/bedale/10741881.Wensleydale_Railway_level_crossing_to_be_replaced_after_veteran_cyclist_smashes_her_elbow/?ref=rss

According to that report, they were making some changes, but I haven't ridden it in years - everyone vaguely local knows to avoid it.

When I came off I'd already crossed it twice over the weekend as we went in and out of Leeming Bar twice.   It had just rained and I slipped off and threw myself into the road and under the front of the car that was behind us.    Next I remember I was in the ambulance and mildly upset I had lossed my qualifier for the 95 PBP.   I still have scars across my wrist and knuckles as, for some reason that escapes me, I wasn't wearling my mitts.   My parents were most happy to do a round trip from Lincoln to Northallerton hospital on a Sunday night.

[Veloman]

That the intermediate times of controls .......... etc

Slight mis-reading, ................ etc

I have long campaigned, but without success, for unmanned (by AUK) intermediate controls to not have declared opening and closing times - I simply don't see any point to it.  Who cares what time you pass through a 24h garage?  They could perhaps just have 'guide' times so you know you're on schedule.

Is that true for BRM events?

Also, if control times on a fully supported event with staffed controls are to be respected, then why should they be ignored on an X-rated event?  I thought the whole point of audax was to ride within a particular speed range and finish within a set time, rather than just finish by a set time.  I agree that PoP only confirms you went through particular controls and the route you took between controls is viewed as arbitrary.

[Somnolent]

BRMs *should* comply with the ACP rules: http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/EN/index.php?showpage=322
Article 10:  ... riders must arrive at each checkpoint between the opening and closing time for the checkpoint. These times are noted on the brevet card with the information for the checkpoints ...

Although on the subject of start times the French regs do allow a start up to one hour after the nominated start time, and control closing times for any controls in the first 60km are then calculated on the basis of a 20kph minimum speed counting from the 'one hour after' time.   At the 60km point that is the same time as 15 kph from the nominal time, and thereafter the French use 15 kph as we do.   Asking an AUK organiser to stand around in a freezing cold car park at audax o'clock on a winter morning in the hope that some of the DNS might turn out to be just late would not be popular.

[Veloman]

BRMs *should* comply with the ACP rules: http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/EN/index.php?showpage=322
Article 10:  ... riders must arrive at each checkpoint between the opening and closing time for the checkpoint. These times are noted on the brevet card with the information for the checkpoints ...

(My bold)

No should about it!

[caerau]

Anal retentiveness is always going to keep attracting the punters

[frankly frankie]

I thought the whole point of audax was to ride within a particular speed range and finish within a set time, rather than just finish by a set time.

That may be the point of 'audax' (where you must ride as a group), but it seems to me it's different for a 'randonnee' (where you ride as individuals, as we do in the AUK form of the sport), where the object (I always thought) is simply to ride a set distance within a set time.  Like PBP.

The intermediate open/close times are there for the controllers/helpers, not for the riders, IMHO.  All well and good where such controllers/helpers exist, but in very many control locations, they don't.

[SR Steve]

I have always thought that intermediate control opening and closing times must be respected as well, although an allowance for lateness can be made if a rider stops to assist an injured rider. This time needs to be caught up within a couple of controls though.

Control opening times are there to prevent racing. The only ride I know of where the control opening times don't have to be respected is the 80 hour start for the PBP.

Back on thread, I am quite happy to go along with any event start time. I was pleased when the Moors and Wolds 400 changed from 1400 to 1030 as it is nice to get a few more miles in before it gets dark and I still had time to ECE it to a 500 last year without having to get up too early.

If staying at a Travelodge or Premier Inn, I would take my own food for breakfast if an audax ride had an early start. I wouldn't bother with a B&B that wasn't prepared to give me an early breakfast. I have a big van that can sleep 4 with all the bikes in though, which gives a very low cost option. It's also handy for family camping trips.

[3peaker]

I have just completed a Perm 400, which, conveniently combined 2x200s; my Perms listing encourages combining any (of my) 200 Perms. Living at the S/F of several I have a wide choice and selected rides good for night Controls, safe quiet roads, easy descents and variety.  More useful, though, was home located so I could use my own home as a night Control between the 2 routes. An afternoon start was planned to arrive home after midnight and a potential dawn start for the continuing route. ‘On the day’ I started at 1528, home controlled 0150-0700 (full 4hrs sleep) and completed in sub-27hrs. In 2009, I rode a Trike Combo 600 the same way but with an early morning start.

A variation to this is, if you live near a Control on a Perm, using this as a S/F Control and in Cheltenham (S/F for most) doing a 200 from there and completing the start 200 after a 200km loop. Fast riders can do this in a mid-summer day, though most will need to plan/suffer a roadside nap, unless they have a friend on route.

On the Q of Calendars, with my 100, 150 and 200 groups of rides, I try to keep the rides separated so that there is an even flow of riders through Controls and feed stations. This was particularly successful on the Apperley events using Pandy Village Hall as a feed Control, twice for the Gospel Pass 200 and once for the YatMon150, where my excellent local helpers saw 3 distinct waves of activity.