Stuck cassette lockring. Any tips?

[JJ]

This is a follow-on from my thread about the derailleur going into the spokes.  I still don't know for sure what caused that, but now I've finally got the necessary tuits and other parts to sort it out I can't shift that lockring to get the cassette off.  I bent my chain-whip trying last night.

That cassette was fitted by a shop in the middle of a ride back in the autumn.  I wasn't particularly watching, but I don't recall huge amounts of torque going into tightening it up.  Maybe it's somethign to do with the demise of the derailleur.  Anyhow, any tips for getting the bugger off?

[gibbo]

That must be on pretty damn tight!

The only time I had problems removing a cassette was when the tool stripped the castelations off the lockring (it was Al but has since been replaced with a steel one). I had to use a cold chisel and hammer and welt it whilst getting someone else to hold the chainwhip. It started shifting after a couple of blows.

You could try putting some WD40 on first.

[robgul]

It's probably just a factor of the length of the levers on the chainwhip and whatever tool you are trying to turn the lockring tool with.

Very probably 2 minutes at the LBS will get it off for you with the appropriate Park Tool workshop implements.

There are a couple of other bodges (in desperation mode) using a vice to grip the cassette by the largest sprocket and then some heavy duty levering on the lockring tool (you need a BIG vice to this, with clearance for the wheel)

Rob

[Torslanda]

Generally you need another person for this.

To shock the lockring off, have someone hold the cahinwhip while you hold the wheel & hit the remover with a rubber mallet - assuming you're using a tool with an integrated handle.

If the tool is a hex the fit the tool in the vice and use the chainwhip to turn the cassette off the lockring - usually works best on the 2nd cog & gets progressively more difficult as you move away from the lockring.

[Brucey]

chain whips vary; some are rubbish, most are too short to use comfortably on anything that is remotely tight.  Years ago (mainly for working on multiple freewheels)  I got cheesed off with what I could buy and built my own. They are about 18" long, which is long enough to break the chain links that bear against the sprockets if you try hard enough. Needless to say they offer more than enough purchase for any cassette.  Of those that you can buy the park tool is a close approximation.

The other part of the equation is the splined tool. If you have a bench vice then clamping the tool in position using the QR (the splines often don't poke through the lockring far and with some combinations of hub and tool, the tool can slip out) and then holding the tool in a bench vice is a good method.

If you don't have a bench vice then using a breaker bar works well. You can use a deep hex socket (so that you can still use the QR to clamp the tool in place) and a breaker bar with a head that swings over 90 degrees; this allows you to swing like a chimp without the tool trying to cam out, because the handle of the tool is brought back into the same plane as the splines.

There are plenty of tools that work some of the time, most of the time, even, but there are very few that work all the time.

cheers

[Kim]

There's a special place in hell for lockring tools with integrated handles that aren't long enough to achieve a decent amount of leverage.  I'm glaring at you, Capreo.

[JJ]

Yes - My chain whip has a bar about 12" long.  I had extended it with a bit of pipe to get a bit more leverage.  The other tool is of the hex variety that I was driving with a socket and tommy bar, also extended.  No problems getting the tool to stay in the splines, but when the whip buckled I though maybe it would be a good plan to pause and think before getting the scaffolding bar out!  I haven't had a problem like this since I moved off screw-on freewheels.

I think a trip to the LBS is called for, or rather to the LB Van, as my LBS closed down a few years ago after about 150 years and was converted into a yuppie food place called The Old Bicycle Shop.  I'll pop round later and ask him if he's got a big one.

[hulver]

Are you turning it the right way? 

[JJ]

Are you turning it the right way? 

Cassette away from me, right hand going down, necessitating use of the chain-whip.  Pretty sure that's right, but it never hurts to check!

[JJ]

LB Hut came up trumps (can you still say that?) and wouldn't take any money for it, so I'll have to come up with a reason to use his services.  Maybe he could service my Alfine hub gear for me.  Anyway, shout out for the bike hut man in CB1 Cambridge.

Now that I think of it, there are quite a few of these mechanic-in-a-hut type places popping up round here, from the guy on a narrow-boat via the market stall to the hut at the hospital.  I guess rent is a lot cheaper.

[robgul]

LB Hut came up trumps (can you still say that?) and wouldn't take any money for it, so I'll have to come up with a reason to use his services.  Maybe he could service my Alfine hub gear for me.  Anyway, shout out for the bike hut man in CB1 Cambridge.

Now that I think of it, there are quite a few of these mechanic-in-a-hut type places popping up round here, from the guy on a narrow-boat via the market stall to the hut at the hospital.  I guess rent is a lot cheaper.

What did the LBS chap do?  - was it just the BIG Park Tool implements?

Rob

[JJ]

What did the LBS chap do?  - was it just the BIG Park Tool implements?

Yup.  Bigger better tools, as simple as that!  All with a smile and some cheery banter.

[Brucey]

the cycle mechanic's version requires a caveat/footnote thus

(*) or break something.

 

cheers

[robgul]

What did the LBS chap do?  - was it just the BIG Park Tool implements?

Yup.  Bigger better tools, as simple as that!  All with a smile and some cheery banter.

Ah - a packet of biscuits or a cake from the customer is usually involved when I perform such surgery in my shop!

Rob

[Feanor]

Jeepers, how does it come to this?

The tightening torque is about 50Nm, which is not Silly Tight.
Chain tension does not tighten a cassette lockring like it does with a threaded freewheel, so what's going on here?
 

[LittleWheelsandBig]

The teeth between a lockring and cassette are effectively asymmetric, so the tightening and loosening torques are usually somewhat different. No doubt corrosion and dirt plays a part.

[rogerzilla]

There is a slight precession effect with rear sprockets, which fret anti-clockwise against anything screwed against them.  That's why Shimano lockrings have detents.  For the same reason, Sturmey-Archer used left-threaded lockrings on their old 12-spline sprockets (which slide on in the same way as a cassette).

[Joe.B]

As others have already said, all chain whips are not equal.

For more than 20 years I was using a cheap chain whip that i bought as a teenager in the 80's.  It always left me with bloody knuckles and just recently it snapped in two while trying to remove a sprocket from a second-hand Rolhoff picked up on ebay.

The park tool I replaced it with is a revelation; I no longer dread cassette / sprocket removal and I no longer suffer bloody knuckles.     

[alexb]

I've moved away from chainwhips entirely.
https://www.decathlon.co.uk/chain-whip-cassette-remover-id_8309913.html
This is a complete revelation.

[robgul]

As others have already said, all chain whips are not equal.

For more than 20 years I was using a cheap chain whip that i bought as a teenager in the 80's.  It always left me with bloody knuckles and just recently it snapped in two while trying to remove a sprocket from a second-hand Rolhoff picked up on ebay.

The park tool I replaced it with is a revelation; I no longer dread cassette / sprocket removal and I no longer suffer bloody knuckles.   

The Park Tool "conventional" chainwhip, the professional version is great
https://www.parktool.com/product/sprocket-remover-chain-whip-sr-2-2

.... but they also do one that's like a giant pair of scissors that's even better
https://www.parktool.com/product/chain-whip-pliers-cp-1

and add one of these to hold the lockring tool and you're ruling the world!
https://www.parktool.com/product/freewheel-remover-wrench-frw-1

Rob