Author Topic: headset bodge  (Read 2230 times)

headset bodge
« on: 02 April, 2017, 04:17:05 pm »
My threadless headset is significantly indexed on the bottom cup which I guess means a change.  I don't have a cup remover or press and don't often (first time) have need of one.  Is it a fools errand to carefully proceed without?  Which is trickiest using improvised tools: cup removal or fitting?  I think I can lay my hands on a long enough bolt to fashion some sort of ersatz press.  The subject bike is not a show pony but it is a reasonable steel tourer.  Am I being too cheap?  I enjoy doing jobs myself.

Re: headset bodge
« Reply #1 on: 02 April, 2017, 05:27:16 pm »
my suggestion is (if it was originally the sort with clipped balls in it) to try fitting loose balls to the headset instead. This often restores a headset to a functional state again, and all for pennies.

If the headset is the sort that accepts cartridge bearings, either replace the bearing or buy a headset that uses the same bearings, and then use the bearings from that.

hth

cheers



Re: headset bodge
« Reply #2 on: 02 April, 2017, 05:35:08 pm »
My threadless headset is significantly indexed on the bottom cup which I guess means a change.  I don't have a cup remover or press and don't often (first time) have need of one.  Is it a fools errand to carefully proceed without?  Which is trickiest using improvised tools: cup removal or fitting?  I think I can lay my hands on a long enough bolt to fashion some sort of ersatz press.  The subject bike is not a show pony but it is a reasonable steel tourer.  Am I being too cheap?  I enjoy doing jobs myself.

Removal: Long screwdriver with flat blade, and a hammer.

Replacement: Length of threaded rod, two nuts, selection of thick washers.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: headset bodge
« Reply #3 on: 02 April, 2017, 05:49:35 pm »
As Brucey says, it's likely to be possible to just change the bearings.
If you do remove it and you're not intending to re use - flat bladed screwdriver and mallet from the outside, just tap away and keep working round so it come out even.

Re: headset bodge
« Reply #4 on: 02 April, 2017, 06:38:29 pm »
As Brucey says, it's likely to be possible to just change the bearings.

If you fit new bearings into an indexed cup, you will get an indexed headset, won't you?

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: headset bodge
« Reply #5 on: 02 April, 2017, 06:54:22 pm »
Not if cartridge bearings are involved.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: headset bodge
« Reply #6 on: 02 April, 2017, 07:06:53 pm »
As Brucey says, it's likely to be possible to just change the bearings.

If you fit new bearings into an indexed cup, you will get an indexed headset, won't you?
I thought that was answered in Brucey's post.  Depending on the bearings and what you replace them with. If it's a cartridge bearing it won't have damaged the cups, if it's a caged bearing, then replacing with loose might be enough.  I used the word likely because that's my experience YMMV

Re: headset bodge
« Reply #7 on: 02 April, 2017, 07:08:42 pm »
Not if cartridge bearings are involved.

Right, but if you fit a cartridge into a cup that was designed for loose balls, it means the new balls will be much smaller than the originals. Will this cause any problem regarding durability?

Re: headset bodge
« Reply #8 on: 02 April, 2017, 07:19:39 pm »
Are you confusing cartridge bearings and caged bearings? You won't get a cartridge in place of loose balls; if there's a cage, then the balls are fewer than if they're loose, but remain the same size.

Samuel D

Re: headset bodge
« Reply #9 on: 02 April, 2017, 07:42:12 pm »
As I understand it, the point in replacing a cage of balls with loose balls is that you can use more balls so the indentations in the cup don’t line up with the balls.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: headset bodge
« Reply #10 on: 02 April, 2017, 07:49:18 pm »
Not if cartridge bearings are involved.

Right, but if you fit a cartridge into a cup that was designed for loose balls, it means the new balls will be much smaller than the originals. Will this cause any problem regarding durability?

Read Brucey's post again.

If loose bearings in cages, try loose bearings without cages. Often works because not all of the balls line up with the dents.

If cartridge bearings, replace with cartridge bearings. Works every time.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: headset bodge
« Reply #11 on: 02 April, 2017, 09:41:24 pm »
Cartrdge bearings don't tend to become indexed because the fretting motion that causes the notches is taken by the much larger angled interface between the cups and the cartridge.  A 105 caged ball headset used to go bad on me in less than 1000 miles.  Never had any problem with a cartridge headset - the Cane Creek S6 on the commuter has done 12,000 miles with zero attention and is still perfect.

A characteristically stroppy explanation here from the late Jobst Brandt...but he's right http://yarchive.net/bike/indexed_steering.html
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: headset bodge
« Reply #12 on: 02 April, 2017, 09:52:13 pm »
Yes he is right but the damage looks like dents and it is easier to describe them as such, hence the term 'brinelling'.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: headset bodge
« Reply #13 on: 02 April, 2017, 11:02:22 pm »
the reason loose balls work well to replace clipped balls is severalfold

1)  there are usually appreciably more balls without a clip present (except in a few cases e.g. some campag headsets) so the bearing is inherently stronger

2) the loose balls are spaced differently to the clipped balls / 'indexing marks'

3) if you want to do a proper job, remove one of the lower races and replace it in a different position, so that none of the marks align exactly when the steering is in in the straight ahead position, e.g. turn the crown race by half a mark or something.

If you do all these things you might get one or two balls sat exactly over an extant mark; the rest however will bear against unworn parts of the races and will share the load. The net result is usually a perfectly acceptable headset.  My view is that this is nearly always worth a go, because it can be done quickly and cheaply, without the usual pitfalls of exactly identifying the specification and tolerance of the original headset, buying the same, then removing the old one and fitting the new one without chipping the paint  etc. etc etc.

It is a while since I read Brandt's explanation/diatribe but I didn't entirely agree with it. If his argument is correct then this would be an excellent reason for using a grease in headsets that contains high film strength synthetic oils, solid lubricants, corrosion inhibitors and EP additives.  Greases meant for low-speed/exposed  industrial bearing applications  are made this way, so I suggest that  greases of that sort are used in bicycle headsets; it certainly won't do any harm.

BTW  his headsets may well have marked themselves up in the fore-aft direction (sort of) as he described but when I saw his bike I understood why immediately;  he used an extremely long 1" steel steerer in a light gauge; the flex in this would have allowed the lower races to articulate through a much larger angle than normal ( I estimate up to three times more than in those steerers that most folk use).  Once the articulation reaches a certain point the balls cannot share the load any more and some wear is inevitable.

  My experience is that in steerers of 'ordinary length' (i.e. to fit into head tubes 6-8" length) such marks do not appear in good quality headsets (fitted with loose balls), even after many tens of thousands of miles, provided they are lubricated and adjusted correctly. 

 FWIW most headsets that go bad don't die of natural causes, they are murdered, i.e. they die because they are not installed or adjusted correctly.  You would be amazed how many people tighten the top nut on an A-head too much, or finger tighten the adjusting race on a threaded headset before bringing the locknut down on it, crushing the life out of the bearings....

The correct method for adjusting a threaded headset is to set the adjustment so that it is loose when the locknut is tight, then back the locknut off, adjust the threaded race a little inwards, retighten the locknut, and check for play. Repeat until there is no play.  If you adjusted 1/10th of a turn at a time, this is up to about 100 microns (i.e. a country mile in bearing terms) preload so there is probably a better setting somewhere between the last two positions you tried.  With good quality bearings you should be shooting for about 10-20 microns preload, i.e. a few degrees or  one or two 1/100ths of a turn on the adjusting race past the point where (with the locknut tight) there is still detectable free play.

As someone pointed out above if you have a very flexy steerer, some of the articulation may be (again imperfectly) taken up by the angled bearing seatings in a cartridge bearing headset. However this is (IMHO, along with easy cartridge replacement) pretty much their only positive aspect;  size for size they tend to have fewer, smaller balls in them (so have a smaller load capacity), yet require a higher preload so as not to rattle over bumps etc. I have seen plenty of cartridges  that started to 'index', mostly because they were badly adjusted.

cheers

Re: headset bodge
« Reply #14 on: 03 April, 2017, 12:12:27 am »
Goodness. I thought I was being reasonably precise aiming for 1/8th of a turn adjustment.

Re: headset bodge
« Reply #15 on: 03 April, 2017, 03:02:27 pm »
some food for thought.  The current headset has caged ball bearings and the option of replacing with loose balls to break the alignment between balls and "brinelling" pits (yes, I know not really) had slipped my mind so I will give that a go first as I am now feeling more worried about whether the cups in a replacement will fit mu head tube without the possibility of re-machining which I regard as beyond my capabilities.

Biggsy

  • A bodge too far
  • Twit @iceblinker
    • My stuff on eBay
Re: headset bodge
« Reply #16 on: 03 April, 2017, 03:44:58 pm »
The frame won't need any work unless there's something unusual about it or its condition.

It's worth getting the proper tools if you want to do a few more headsets in your life, otherwise there's no reason you shouldn't improvise.  Some cups in some frames fit more tightly than others.  There's always a bike shop to resort to if you get stuck.
●●●  My eBay items  ●●●  Twitter  ●●●

Re: headset bodge
« Reply #17 on: 03 April, 2017, 06:06:01 pm »
re the 'brinelling' vs 'other wear' argument. IIRC JB inferred that it wasn't brinelling (but was instead some form of plucking wear) because it appeared that there was material missing, rather than displaced.

'False brinelling' is a well known wear regime in static bearings that see a lot of vibration, but the circumstances are usually not quite the same as those that a headset sees.

It could be a mixed mode wear regime of course, but if I had to choose one, I'd still go with the brinelling argument.  The reason I say this is that

a) I've seen raised areas around such indentations and
b) any displaced material is easily missed unless you know exactly what to look for.

Suppose you have an indentation that is an ellipse 2mm x 1mm about 0.1mm deep.  In round numbers that indentation will have a volume of about 0.1mm^3.  If the displaced material is spread around in a 1mm wide zone surrounding the indent, it will raise that surround by an average of about 0.015mm. Fifteen microns.... I think that unless you know how to look for a miniscule raised area around the indentation, you could easily miss it.

cheers

Samuel D

Re: headset bodge
« Reply #18 on: 03 April, 2017, 06:23:38 pm »
It's worth getting the proper tools if you want to do a few more headsets in your life

Any recommended tools for this task, for someone who’s only likely to work on his own and his friends’ bicycles?

Biggsy

  • A bodge too far
  • Twit @iceblinker
    • My stuff on eBay
Re: headset bodge
« Reply #19 on: 03 April, 2017, 09:45:21 pm »
Cyclus - good value and well beefy.
●●●  My eBay items  ●●●  Twitter  ●●●

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: headset bodge
« Reply #20 on: 03 April, 2017, 09:53:41 pm »
Do check stack height before you buy another headset.  Bike manufacturers are terrible for cutting steerers right down and fitting headsets of low stack height and with no spacers, making replacements really hard to find (hello, Brompton).  This has become less common with threadless headsets, which nearly always have spacers in the stack, but it was usually bad news to find a Shimano threaded headset on a 1990s bike; they didn't last long and had about the lowest stack height of all.

A sneaky solution, if you're only a couple of mm short of getting the locknut on a threaded fork, is to have a bike shop or framebuilder face the head tube very aggressively.  This is difficult on a lugged frame, or on a welded frame with reinforcing rings at the top and bottom of the head tube (which is best practice).  However, this trick does work on a Brompton.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.