JR's Training Log

[JohnR]

I think you're right, I'm reading Friel, who states similar to you, but he says to do the coupling test at aerobic threshold for 2 hours!

I will take a coupling test as you suggested, thanks.

Edit: 124watts is nearly 12% increase from 102watts which corresponds to a heart rate of 140bpm (125 plus 12%) plus a bit for possible cardiac drift as the gym is reasonably warm and I was sweating more at the end. IIRC most of the second half at the increased watts was done at a heart rate of around 135bpm.
Will make a graph of the test measuring heart rate at 5 min. intervals to check this.

[JohnR]

Base Ride Z2.

3 Hrs in Zone2 3 Laps totalling 53Km.
Max HR 150bpm, Min 109bpm, Avge 138bpm.

Nice easy ride, had to watch it I didn't go over my zone though. Seems my aerobic threshold is around 135 - 140bpm as I could talk easily at this range.

https://www.strava.com/activities/453426805/overview

[Ningishzidda]

Exercising at those levels of cardiac stress is conditioning your system to burn fat instead of carbs.
Doing this on a real bike out on the road ( long commuting ) without any specific nutrition for the exercise will show you results by reducing your bodyweight. It will seem easier to climb hills at the same speed, or you will be able to climb hills quicker.
On a gym bike, you will not see this advantage except when you need to punch in a lower kg value at startup. This will adjust the kCals calculation on the machine for the %incline the machine is simulating.

To achieve muscular hypertrophy, cardiovascular and pulmonary improvement, you MUST exercise at a level higher than experienced before.
This only needs to be five minutes at an intensity 1% more than last achievable.

Hunter Allen’s ‘5 minutes all out’ ( section 3. ) prior to the test does exactly this.

If you want gains, you must do this. If you ride Hunter Allen’s FTP protocol and miss out the 20 minute TT, you will see gains. The 20 min TT is a performance metric.

[JohnR]

OK, but all the books I've read say you shouldn't exercise at a high level without conditioning the slow twitch fibres first which is long slow distances/time at zone 2/3 which encourages mitochondria and blood capillary growth to produce more power lower down the heart rate range. Isn't this why everyone does lots of this type of exercise in winter, base endurance?

According to Friel, you shouldn't do interval or higher intensity exercising before you can do the coupling test at aerobic level with a cardiac drift of no more than 5%, which is achieved by long slow distances in this zone.

[JohnR]

I feel the need to explain my understanding of muscle physiology and exercise.

Muscles are made up of 2 fibre types, slow twitch and fast twitch of varying proportions.

Slow twitch fibres:
They are smaller than fast twitch and weaker.
They are made up of tiny mitochondria fed by tiny blood capillaries and burn mostly body fat for fuel. They need plenty of oxygenated blood to burn it.
They are the first fibres to be recruited when exercising until they cannot perform the task when fast twitch fibres take over.
They are the endurance fibres, slow and steady progress.
When specifically exercised, they grow more mitochondria over time, to produce more power.
To specifically exercise them, we need to have the intensity low so as not to recruit fast twitch fibres which means our heart rate will be low.

Fast twitch fibres:
They are larger than slow twitch and stronger.
They use ATP stored in them and the liver at first for fuel but run out after about 2 hours, this means we have to keep eating to fuel them for longer periods.
They can work without oxygen for short periods (anaerobic).
They are the workhorse fibres to sprint or get you up that hill etc.
When exercised, they grow in size and use more ATP.
To exercise them we need to increase the intensity to recruit them which means our heart rate will rise, switching from fat burning to more ATP burning, and more eating.

Most cycling is endurance and therefore should use the slow twitch fibres predominantly, sparing the fast twitch for the hills etc. It follows then we should train mostly the slow twitch fibres which, in turn means long slow rides at low intensities with a low heart rate.

[Ningishzidda]

Long Steady Distance on a simple turbo trainer.

Switch on the 16” pedestal fan in front of the bike.

Load a good movie DVD into DVD player.

Ride along slowly at first breathing in through the nose only, gaining speed and resistance until long deep inhalations are necessary through the nose only when the bike is at 15 mph. Back off so a determined but unstrained breathing can be achieved through the nose only. Choose the gear ratio which gives you a comfortable cadence.

Reach for DVD player remote control and start the movie.

Remain at the speed and resistance for the duration. If you have to laugh because it’s a comedy film, don’t alter your riding speed or resistance, but return to ‘NOSE ONLY’ breathing when laughter ceases.
 

[JohnR]

 

[Ningishzidda]

Try this.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Carry-On-The-Ultimate-Collection/dp/B001CWLFJ0

[simonp]

JohnR - have a look at the training adaptions table on this page at TrainingPeaks.

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/power-training-levels

Hypertrophy of slow twitch muscle fibres is best achieved according to them in zone 5. The fast twitch fibre hypertrophy doesn't appear in the table at all below zone 6.

Fast twitch fibres are unlikely to be developed in any meaningful way by cycling. For that you need weight training. Which will compromise endurance most likely. It can be beneficial for other reasons particularly bone density.

[Ningishzidda]

JohnR - have a look at the training adaptions table on this page at TrainingPeaks.

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/power-training-levels

Hypertrophy of slow twitch muscle fibres is best achieved according to them in zone 5. The fast twitch fibre hypertrophy doesn't appear in the table at all below zone 6.

Fast twitch fibres are unlikely to be developed in any meaningful way by cycling. For that you need weight training. Which will compromise endurance most likely. It can be beneficial for other reasons particularly bone density.

“Furthermore, there is obviously an inverse relationship between power output and the duration that power can be sustained.”

Yup. David Gordon Wilson and Frank Whitt sussed this out with co-operation from N.A.S.A. in the 1960s.

[chrisbainbridge]

For that you need weight training. Which will compromise endurance most likely.

Yet Friel in every book he has written explains that weight training is essential for the cyclist.  Hutch in one of his books (Faster) tells a story of David Millars training with big sets of squats interspersed with fast efforts on the turbo.  Recent blogs from Sky show significant gym work.

I am sorry Ning but that statement is nonsense.

[simonp]

Don't blame Ning for that statement - it came from me. I think weight training has improved my explosive power. I doubt it's increased my climbing ability on long climbs as it's made me heavier but I'm a lot faster on short sharp climbs. Afaik froome does bodyweight squats. https://m.facebook.com/froomechristopher/posts/860794173976751 - significantly different to the type of weight training that would induce fast twitch hypertrophy.

When I increased training volume for PBP this year I had to stop the weight training entirely as the total training load was way too high to accommodate it.

[chrisbainbridge]

Sorry, my overall day irritation led me to be rude and abrupt.


I think it may also be about where you are in the training cycle.  Friel clearly recommends it in the base and early season phases but reducing during the racing season.

[JohnR]

JohnR - have a look at the training adaptions table on this page at TrainingPeaks.

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/power-training-levels

Hypertrophy of slow twitch muscle fibres is best achieved according to them in zone 5. The fast twitch fibre hypertrophy doesn't appear in the table at all below zone 6.

Fast twitch fibres are unlikely to be developed in any meaningful way by cycling. For that you need weight training. Which will compromise endurance most likely. It can be beneficial for other reasons particularly bone density.

Had a look at this, seems I'm old skool. Will do a couple test followed by a ftp test attempt before I get started.
When I re-started riding again 3 years ago my heart rate soon went up to 165 BPM and stayed there the whole ride. Fitness soon went up.
I'll do the threshold exercises first time after above tests.
I have one leg much weaker than the other due to an old rtc injury, so I am doing single leg presses to try and bring the weak leg up to scratch also.

[simonp]

Sorry, my overall day irritation led me to be rude and abrupt.


I think it may also be about where you are in the training cycle.  Friel clearly recommends it in the base and early season phases but reducing during the racing season.

No apology needed. What I should have said is training for type ii hypertrophy (which generally requires heavy weight lifting at low reps) would compromise endurance. Weight lifting at higher rep ranges emphasises type I aiui and I can see that it could be beneficial. Also weight training has other uses; I have fewer knee problems since I took it up.

[Ningishzidda]

Which statement?

The quote in speech marks taken from TrainingPeaks ??

[JohnR]

Coupling Test
Set gym bike to constant watts of 116, period 60 minutes.
Cadence throughout was 90 to maintain target watts.
Heart rate noted every 2 minute intervals and plotted on graph.

Results show for the duration when heart rate levelled off drift between last half and first half was 3%, so good to go!

Also found out my right leg (the weaker one) appears to take a back seat as sometimes the watts fell to 110 watts momentarily despite constant cadence, this went back up every time to 116 watts when I consciously made my right leg put more effort into the test. This is probably happening when riding. More strengthening of my right leg is needed to match both legs I think.
Coupling by reynolds.john48, on Flickr

[simonp]

Single leg focus drills may help to work on that. You spend a few minutes at a time focusing on one leg or the other. The opposite leg is still working.

[JohnR]

FTP Test attempt 2

Now that our leccy's back on after the floods, here we go:
After the warm up, started out with a power I could hold and increased each 5 minutes until max was reached.
Initial 130 watts, increased to 167 watts and held this for the last 10 minutes with a terminal heart rate of 173 bpm.
I think I could have increased the watts up a tad more, but will use this as my start point.
So this gives me a start ftp of 141 watts, rather low by comparisons to most but it's a start, now onto some interval work based on this.

[Ningishzidda]

The way I trained both legs to work equal was to warm-up as usual, and then sprint 'balls out' in 'speed control' for as long as possible. The Wattage of course starts big ( >700 ) and tails off after a minute or so. Keep going until both legs can't move.
When the dominant leg starts to give up, the other gets trained from then on.

'Speed control' on an ergometer is where the resistance automatically increases and decreases so the rider keeps the same cadence, which is selected before the test.
'Load control' is where a Wattage is selected and the machine lets the rider's cadence increase and decrease to maintain the Wattage. If the rider gives some oomph, cadence will increase and pedal force decreases. This is useful for doing tests to assess HR vs cadence for a constant Wattage. Must be done first to plot a 3D surface chart of HR, Cadence and Wattage. Then you know what cadence gives you WattMax for HRMin.

[LMT]

FTP Test attempt 2

Now that our leccy's back on after the floods, here we go:
After the warm up, started out with a power I could hold and increased each 5 minutes until max was reached.
Initial 130 watts, increased to 167 watts and held this for the last 10 minutes with a terminal heart rate of 173 bpm.
I think I could have increased the watts up a tad more, but will use this as my start point.
So this gives me a start ftp of 141 watts, rather low by comparisons to most but it's a start, now onto some interval work based on this.

Are you sure this is right? And how long have you been riding?

I only say and ask because 141w as a FTP is very low, if you take the weight of an average male of 75kg then this would mean a w/kg of 1.88 which ranks amongst the untrained riders. Which I can't believe you'd (or anyone else) would be if you have ridden a bike for some time and done some miles.

[JohnR]

FTP Test attempt 2

Now that our leccy's back on after the floods, here we go:
After the warm up, started out with a power I could hold and increased each 5 minutes until max was reached.
Initial 130 watts, increased to 167 watts and held this for the last 10 minutes with a terminal heart rate of 173 bpm.
I think I could have increased the watts up a tad more, but will use this as my start point.
So this gives me a start ftp of 141 watts, rather low by comparisons to most but it's a start, now onto some interval work based on this.
[/quonow



Are you sure this is right? And how long have you been riding?

I only say and ask because 141w as a FTP is very low, if you take the weight of an average male of 75kg then this would mean a w/kg of 1.88 which ranks amongst the untrained riders. Which I can't believe you'd (or anyone else) would be if you have ridden a bike for some time and done some miles.

Yes I am surprised how low it is. I've been cycling now for 3 years following a long lay off. Just recently my hip gave way, ensuring I was incapacitated for about 6 weeks which has meant a total loss of strength in my right leg (the weak one).
Prior to this, I was able to do quite intense intervals on the bike, along with 200km audaxes etc. I could have increased the intensity on the test near the end but chose not to as my Max heart rate is 180 BPM.

[JohnR]

Wk 1 Session 1
65 Mins total, 10 mins warm up & cool down.
4 x 8mins @ ftp (144 Watts) HR 157,160,163,164
3 x 4 mins recovery (80 watts) HR 135,137,138
Remainder cool down.
Session felt fairly easy, could have done more. Breathing beginning to labour. No burning in legs (never really do feel this no matter how hard it is).
Concentrated in making weaker leg do it's fair share of the work. Beginning to think this leg is my limiting factor in ftp test as it is this leg which falters first. Only fairly light dull ache in legs after workout, shouldn't his be harder?

[simonp]

I've just done a VO2max workout. 6x3mins @ 115% FTP and 4x2 mins at 130% FTP. This is challenging and I have a lot of the burn. But immediately afterwards I'm fine. So I don't expect that you need to feel ****ed after a workout to know it did some good.

[JohnR]

I will continue with this regime, decreasing recovery time until it is zero, giving me a solid 32 minutes @ ftp and see how I go.