Author Topic: Help With Fuelling? (Read 16016 times)

JohnR · « **Reply #75 on:** 15 February, 2016, 12:35:44 pm »

Quote from: Chris S on 10 February, 2016, 01:53:05 pm

I'm doing some very low intensity "training" (it's so low intensity, I hesitate to call it "training") which includes a long fasted weekend ride; in conjunction with a very low carb diet - less than 50g a day.

Last Sunday, I managed 102km completely fasted, around where we're going to be living very shortly (and where even the flat bits have hills - at least, for this flatlander's legs) without any energy issues. Sure I was VERY ready to eat by the time I finished, but I didn't need any carbs (tea was cheese, chicken, ham and a fruit salad at Wetherby services - classy) and energy flow and focus was easily good enough for me to drive 300 miles back south in shitty weather, without any problems whatsoever.

Get the fat burning right - and you simply don't need to worry about food. Or digestive issues during a ride, because you're trying/having to force food in. But to get it this useful, you have to follow what most people would regard as a really unbalanced diet (75% fat, 20% protein, 5% carbs). No bread (no grains of any kind) and no sugar except small incidental amounts in fruit.

May I interject here?

I am trying to fathom this issue out for myself and find I'm a little lost in all the info, if I could iterate my understanding of fat burning;

For mostly fat burning I would have to cycle at a heart rate of 70% of MHR or less which with my lowish power output, I would be travelling too slow overall to finish a 200Km Audax in time I'm sure. So I'm doing some interval training to increase my power output overall which appears to be slowly having the desired effect of raising my power output right through my heart rate range, but not enough yet to propel me fast enough at this low level (130bpm in my case).

My understanding of fat conversion in the body to useful fuel for working muscles is several hours from consumption, which is too slow for most audaxes? so fuelling on the ride is useless, it would have to be done before and after the ride in normal body operation.

What exactly do I need to do to make my body burn fat more efficiently, I understand as Chris has stated very low level cycling but how much and for how long?

Ta for any answers.

Cudzoziemiec · « **Reply #76 on:** 15 February, 2016, 12:46:48 pm »

My understanding, or rather my assumption, was burning fat reserves, so unimportant when you ate.

L CC · « **Reply #77 on:** 15 February, 2016, 12:59:27 pm »

You're conflating two things- fat burning zone- where your intensity is such that you don't strip through your reserves, and ketosis, where you only burn fat whatever the intensity.

Chris S · « **Reply #78 on:** 15 February, 2016, 02:05:12 pm »

Quote from: JohnR on 15 February, 2016, 12:35:44 pm

What exactly do I need to do to make my body burn fat more efficiently, I understand as Chris has stated very low level cycling but how much and for how long?

Ta for any answers.

OK, you're not (AFAIR) Sami Inkinen, but this blog post shows how he transformed his energy usage profile: http://www.samiinkinen.com/post/86875777832/becoming-a-bonk-proof-triathlete-fat-chance.

An N=1 anecdote isn't worth much, but Jeff Volek's FASTER study has reproduced this experience in others: http://www.enduranceplanet.com/pt-1-dr-jeff-volek-and-zach-bitter-introducing-the-faster-study-and-low-carb-fueling-for-athletes/.

So - if you can make a LCHF diet work for you, you're well on your way

.

The Low intensity stuff I'm doing is a variation on Maffetone training that runners do; basically it concentrates on demonstrable improvements to one's aerobic base before even attempting training at anaerobic work-rates.

simonp · « **Reply #79 on:** 15 February, 2016, 02:17:15 pm »

Having had RQ fat burning test, at peak fat burning was about 55% of total calories. I could quite comfortably cycle 200km within the time limit, riding at that sort of intensity, eating only food I carried.

That 55% was within 20 minutes or so of commencing exercise. Fat burning would tend to increase over time. When I was relatively untrained a couple of months beforehand, it was peaking at 25-30%.

Regarding zones, I was burning fat at roughly a constant absolute rate up until I approached LT. Basically I had a fixed fat burning capability and above that intensity of work, carbs made up the gap. Until it got hard, at which point fat burning switched off.

If you train at lower intensities and avoid eating lots before and during - especially before - then you should see an increase in fat burning ability. Particularly avoid lots of sugary stuff in your diet.

simonp · « **Reply #80 on:** 15 February, 2016, 02:24:53 pm »

I did a 2h15 fasted base session on the turbo yesterday. Two coffees beforehand don't count, right?

It's hard to think of anything more tedious, even with Netflix.

hellymedic · « **Reply #81 on:** 15 February, 2016, 02:40:51 pm »

I suspect that different types of fat are not equally accessible for purposes of fuelling exertion.
Recently eaten food > visceral fat > subcutaneous fat IMO.

Not everyone can digest and absorb much fat whilst on the move.

mattc · « **Reply #82 on:** 15 February, 2016, 04:07:51 pm »

Quote from: simonp on 15 February, 2016, 02:24:53 pm

I did a 2h15 fasted base session on the turbo yesterday. Two coffees beforehand don't count, right?

It's hard to think of anything more tedious, even with Netflix.

that's why I do those rides to a seller of high-fat delectable breakfast goods. Ideally down nice roads.

You turbots must have different internal wiring to me.

hellymedic · « **Reply #83 on:** 15 February, 2016, 04:11:16 pm »

I believe big doses of caffeine can increase fatty acid release and are classed by some as ergogenic.

JohnR · « **Reply #84 on:** 16 February, 2016, 07:39:07 pm »

Thanks for the replies everyone, some good reading there for sure. LCHF appears to be the way to go, will look further into it.
Cheers all.

Ningishzidda · « **Reply #85 on:** 17 February, 2016, 06:53:28 am »

Quote from: JohnR on 15 February, 2016, 12:35:44 pm

Quote from: Chris S on 10 February, 2016, 01:53:05 pm
I'm doing some very low intensity "training" (it's so low intensity, I hesitate to call it "training") which includes a long fasted weekend ride; in conjunction with a very low carb diet - less than 50g a day.

Last Sunday, I managed 102km completely fasted, around where we're going to be living very shortly (and where even the flat bits have hills - at least, for this flatlander's legs) without any energy issues. Sure I was VERY ready to eat by the time I finished, but I didn't need any carbs (tea was cheese, chicken, ham and a fruit salad at Wetherby services - classy) and energy flow and focus was easily good enough for me to drive 300 miles back south in shitty weather, without any problems whatsoever.

Get the fat burning right - and you simply don't need to worry about food. Or digestive issues during a ride, because you're trying/having to force food in. But to get it this useful, you have to follow what most people would regard as a really unbalanced diet (75% fat, 20% protein, 5% carbs). No bread (no grains of any kind) and no sugar except small incidental amounts in fruit.

May I interject here?

I am trying to fathom this issue out for myself and find I'm a little lost in all the info, if I could iterate my understanding of fat burning;

For mostly fat burning I would have to cycle at a heart rate of 70% of MHR or less which with my lowish power output, I would be travelling too slow overall to finish a 200Km Audax in time I'm sure. So I'm doing some interval training to increase my power output overall which appears to be slowly having the desired effect of raising my power output right through my heart rate range, but not enough yet to propel me fast enough at this low level (130bpm in my case).

My understanding of fat conversion in the body to useful fuel for working muscles is several hours from consumption, which is too slow for most audaxes? so fuelling on the ride is useless, it would have to be done before and after the ride in normal body operation.What exactly do I need to do to make my body burn fat more efficiently, I understand as Chris has stated very low level cycling but how much and for how long?

Ta for any answers.

Google "Carbo loading".

Also
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipolysis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triglycerides

zigzag · « **Reply #86 on:** 23 February, 2016, 10:28:55 pm »

i have been experimenting on my recent long rides with how little food i can get away and at what intensity i can carry on riding. it turns out if i keep it steady (10-20% below my usual audax pace) the body needs only so much to keep going. for example taking a 312km hilly (4700m ascent) ride - big breakfast, then two bread rolls with butter and cheese and four bananas during the ride and a normal dinner afterwards.
i would normally eat more during the day without any cycling!

Ningishzidda · « **Reply #87 on:** 24 February, 2016, 12:50:39 pm »

Remember speed vs power is a curve.

Doubling speed requires much more than double the power.
Halving speed saves much more than half the power exertion.

hellymedic · « **Reply #88 on:** 24 February, 2016, 01:03:45 pm »

I am no physicist/mathematician but my 1974 O Level in Physics taught me that kinetic energy went up with the square of the velocity ½mv² so doubling the speed will quadruple the energy needed.
And that's in a vacuum...

Kim · « **Reply #89 on:** 24 February, 2016, 05:33:58 pm »

Quote from: hellymedic on 24 February, 2016, 01:03:45 pm

I am no physicist/mathematician but my 1974 O Level in Physics taught me that kinetic energy went up with the square of the velocity ½mv² so doubling the speed will quadruple the energy needed.
And that's in a vacuum...

It's not about the kinetic energy of the cyclist+bike, though. That's relatively small. It's mostly about the kinetic energy of all the air you have to shove out of the way, and that's cubic with speed.

hellymedic · « **Reply #90 on:** 24 February, 2016, 09:58:23 pm »

Air drag isn't much of a factor below 10mph or so.

mattc · « **Reply #91 on:** 25 February, 2016, 01:38:22 pm »

Does anyone remember Alas Smith & Jones? And did they ever discuss the physics of cycling?

Ningishzidda · « **Reply #92 on:** 26 February, 2016, 11:19:48 am »

Quote from: mattc on 25 February, 2016, 01:38:22 pm

Does anyone remember Alas Smith & Jones? And did they ever discuss the physics of cycling?

In all the trains and banks they robbed, they never stole a bicycle.

contango · « **Reply #93 on:** 29 February, 2016, 04:10:26 am »

Quote from: vorsprung on 28 January, 2016, 12:54:08 pm

The one time I really wanted to just abandon an Audax I was rescued by those. Not that particular flavour, but having taken a bit of time to take stock of the situation and realise I had plenty of time in hand a couple of those and a 15 minute timeout did the trick nicely.

Ningishzidda · « **Reply #94 on:** 01 March, 2016, 06:42:30 am »

I like Muller Corners to bring me off the 'edge of doom'.

hellymedic · « **Reply #95 on:** 01 March, 2016, 07:31:41 pm »

Quote from: Ningishzidda on 01 March, 2016, 06:42:30 am

I like Muller Corners to bring me off the 'edge of doom'.

Frijj needs fewer hands...

JohnR · « **Reply #96 on:** 01 March, 2016, 08:31:35 pm »

Last month I had a friij type drink with a banana in Audlem while on the mere 200 audax. First time for me, didn't half hit the spot. Got me mojo back I can tell you. This is what I will be looking for in future.