Design work - Mac or PC?

[Morat]

That's the price, really, of stablility and security. The best way to get malware onto a system isn't through some fiendish hack, it's by asking the user to install it, which they'll gleefully do if there are no hurdles. Apple have always discouraged edge cases and focused on core users and never been afraid to say 'no, we're not doing that.'

If you want to faff or do exotic things that don't involve dancers, Macs probably aren't the tool. I use design apps, some programming tools and analytical platforms (mostly Python-based), MS Office, and writing stuff (mostly Scrivener) for home use. It's a painless experience which is what I am looking for. Even for work, I don't need a super-powered computer – any big analysis has to run on Amazon as it requires 100s of gigabytes of memory and oddles of processing power if I want it finished this decade. And I have data monkeys to press the buttons.

My recent experience of Win10 was painful. OK, there's a bit of learning curve as I last used Win7, but just putting links on the desktop was painful (is it a Windows Classic or Modern, I don't know, why aren't the settings in one place, etc.)

W10 is definitely a shock if you're moving from 7, but it does do the job. Shortcuts are do-able but MS stole the search from Mac so I just hit the windows key and type Word (etc), Enter. It works for files too.

The most useful shortcut I discovered early on was to right-click on the windows button - you get a nice list of useful stuff that provides a list of entries into the (admittedly labryrinthine) settings.

[davelodwig]

Funny that there store doesn't require the same confirmation, the store that they take 30 to 40 percent of the price from...

That dialog exists specifically because Apple wants you to still be able to download any app from the internet and double click it to run.

The problem is it's trivially easy to create a link "download this harmless JPEG" that's actually an app that does harmful stuff when you double click it.

In Catalina they went out of their way to create a middle ground (notarization) between the App Store and random downloads, so apps distributed outside of the App Store get some of the benefit, even though Apple makes no money from this.

If you have a better solution to this problem, do write to Mr T. Cook at 1 Infinite Loop 1 Apple Park Way.

TLDR: Buy whatever you want, I don't actually care a great deal. I'm just cross that hardware I bought has been hobbled or in some cases come to an early demise because Tim Cook can't be arsed to support his closed ecosystem on it anymore.

----

The thing is it's got more and more and more restrictive, my first mac back in 2002 had none of this, my last one, had the whole song and dance, even removing the option for me to say, I know what I'm doing leave me alone (which was a nice feature). It's not a stretch to imagine at some point the door will be slammed shut and it's app store only, after all they are only protecting their users (while taking a cut).  I would prefer for a computer that costs a not insignificant amount of money to allow me to do what I want* not what Tim Cook thinks I should be allowed to do.

For me it's a shame, I used to be able to use a very nice to look at UNIX computer without the faf of setting up Linux on a laptop to use for work, now it's just less hassle to bung a copy of fedora on the machine or use the windows 10 machine work give me, and run unix in a vm (or the cloud or whatever).

I had a go on my sisters ipad pro (cost more than my last computer), and the gap between the tablets and computers is getting smaller, with the move to their own processors I can see unless you are buying a mac pro the laptops end up being a larger version of the tablet with built in keyboard, and closed walled garden for security, some people will love that, no massive learning curve (some folk find computers hard, mind you some folk find the kettle hard as well), and no real inclination to do anything more challenging than use the internet, and Facebook. For some people having a Mac means they look cool, alas I don't get paid to look cool; I wore sandals in a data centre last week so that ship has sailed, but I do get paid on results for which I need some freedom to be able to do stuff on the platform I've been given.

Win 10 is actually quite a good OS, I'm not surprised to be saying that they have a harder job than Apple as they don't know what hardware there systems will be running on or even how old those systems will be. So somethings don't work and well what do you expect when the box is 10 years old, but the OS will still run (sort of) and get updates unlike my iMac which apple cast adrift a couple of years ago, so I'm stuck with a machine that still works but gets no updates and is locked to their ecosystem. Thankfully I was able to do some magic and get Fedora on it, when they change processor it'll be it's the end of the line to the early grave scrap heap with you!



* I accept for a lot of users what Tim wants them to do roughly aligns with what they want.

[ian]

Security is mostly a psychological game, it's far easier to trick a person into doing something than by doing it through deep diabolical digital subterfuge. So, everyone is going down the route of app stores, signing, and clickable hurdles. They're securing their side and reminding you that you are installing something, it's not a passive 'OK.' It's another of those Modern Life is Rubbish things, but the fact is that people will install any old shit they find on the internet and then be surprised that someone wants umpteen bitcoins to unlock their computer.

I agree that Microsoft has a hard job with Windows, they have to support infinite hardware combinations, etc. That's fine, but I'm happy for that to be their problem and not mine. If you want hardware choice, to pick your favourite graphics card, etc. than Apple probably isn't for you. I'm not sure why people get so het up about that, it's not like they're keeping their business model a secret. I'm not sure that people buy Apple computers just to look cool, there's an off-chance they might actually like using them.

My 2009 Mac Mini doesn't run the latest MacOS (High Sierra, if I recall) but still gets security updates, so I think that's a reasonable lifespan.

Adobe and Affinity are much the same on either platform and file interchange isn't an issue, even fonts (mostly, if you don't use anything from Microsoft) play nice on both systems. But on the design side, most people will have been brought up with Macs, so that familiarity is there.

To be honest, all computers these days are generally overpowered for most users. When I need mothership-grade power, I offload the processing to Amazon because it's an order of magnitude more than could be managed on a laptop.

As to making money, I don't have a issue with App Stores taking a cut. I spend my business life with end-users telling me that the products we offer should be free, which is great, but we've never figured out how to the get the 65 developers involved (not to mention everyone else) to work for free. Trust me though, management are working on that.

[citoyen]

I don't understand the whole "But creatives use Apple" thing, Adobe is Adobe once you've fired it up - or am I missing something?

The reasons are largely historical. They were good reasons back in the day but...

Well, I honestly don’t know if there’s still a good reason for sticking with Macs to use Adobe rather than Windows, but nor do I have any need to find out.

Just the way it is.

[andyoxon]

Thanks, interesting stuff.  miniao will have hardware & software provided, but compatibility with peripherals is important I guess.

btw, I have looked at a colleague's MacBook Pro 15"  - very few ports, and for monitor connection etc seems to require an array of adaptors / leads.

[ian]

The trend is for daisy-chaining devices or adding a hub (whatever this week's iteration of USB is). I only have a monitor plugged in (mini-displayport). Backup to Time Machine is on the NAS.

I'd ask what peripherals need to be connected, any recent printer will be wireless, mice and keyboards are wireless, tablets are wireless. My iMac has a hub plugged in to host a couple of external drives. The number of ports may or may not be an issue, depends on whether there's a lot of legacy USB devices and willingness to simply use a hub (I've never had a problem with hubs, seems a solid technology these days).

[Mr Larrington]

I don't understand the whole "But creatives use Apple" thing, Adobe is Adobe once you've fired it up - or am I missing something?

The reasons are largely historical. They were good reasons back in the day but...

Well, I honestly don’t know if there’s still a good reason for sticking with Macs to use Adobe rather than Windows, but nor do I have any need to find out.

Just the way it is.

When Miss von Brandenburg needed new hardware a couple of years ago she considered switching to a Windows box on the basis of bang per buck.

Then she saw the W10 user interface…

[grams]

btw, I have looked at a colleague's MacBook Pro 15"  - very few ports, and for monitor connection etc seems to require an array of adaptors / leads.

They have four identical USB C / Thunderbolt 3 / Displayport sockets, all of which can be used for anything, including charging.

It's a nice idea in theory, it just needs the rest of the world to switch to USB C, which 5 years after Apple's first USB C only Mac is showing no signs of happening.

[Mr Larrington]

Lots of old-skool USB hardware still out there which still works with USB3.x ports.

[grams]

Yeah, with the right dongles you can connect anything. But the hope was that those were temporary and by now we'd be plugging things straight into our computer willy nilly like it was 2015.

[Afasoas]

PC or Laptop from a reputable system builder. What you save by not buying a mac, put towards a high quality calibrated display, graphics tablet and other nice peripherals. The overly contrasty displays on modern macs are sub-optimal for photo/video work.

1 in 10 Mac users thought to be affected by malware which has slipped passed Apple's notarising process. Apple invalidated the keys for the malware and shutdown the developer account. A new notarised version was available within the hour.
Impossible to repair. Components installed with globs of glue. That keyboard that no one likes (up until recently). And the dongle fest that every macbook user has to carry around with them. Even the lifelong Mac users I know are getting fed up with them, much more so since the Catalina update. And they are exorbitantly priced.

[Jaded]

PC or Laptop from a reputable system builder. What you save by not buying a mac, put towards a high quality calibrated display, graphics tablet and other nice peripherals. The overly contrasty displays on modern macs are sub-optimal for photo/video work.

1 in 10 Mac users thought to be affected by malware which has slipped passed Apple's notarising process. Apple invalidated the keys for the malware and shutdown the developer account. A new notarised version was available within the hour.
Impossible to repair. Components installed with globs of glue. That keyboard that no one likes (up until recently). And the dongle fest that every macbook user has to carry around with them. Even the lifelong Mac users I know are getting fed up with them, much more so since the Catalina update. And they are exorbitantly priced.

Apart from that, have you got anything against Macs?

[TimC]

If cash is no object, a Mac laptop is a lovely thing. Dell do make some rather gorgeous XPS laptops though.
For desktops I'm even less sold, you can have a custom PC made up exactly how you want it and swap out parts as you upgrade. For me, tailor-made always trumps off the peg.

I don't understand the whole "But creatives use Apple" thing, Adobe is Adobe once you've fired it up - or am I missing something?

I have both a MacBook Pro 13" and the current 10th-gen i7 Dell XPS 13". The Mac is easier to keep clean - the 'carbon look' deck on the XPS really does attreact greasy fingerprints. I prefer the trackpad on the Mac, but it's not a deal breaker - the XPS is less than 2/3 the size of the Mac, with a better (4k 16:10, rather than a Retina 4:3) screen. Thre really is no usability difference between the two. The Dell is quicker, but it should be. Most importantly, it cost £500 less than the equivalent spec MacBook Pro in December last year. That's significant.

[citoyen]

the dongle fest that every macbook user has to carry around with them.

As a macbook user... I have literally no idea what this means.

What dongles am I supposed to be carrying around with me?

[Chris N]

What dongles am I supposed to be carrying around with me?

I think it's the big bag of chips for your shoulder. 

For the sort of 3D design work I do, Windows is the most obvious route.  But only because I need a reasonably fast single core processor, a decent amount of RAM and a discrete graphics card at non-exorbitant prices.  My windows laptop cost me £900 (15" screen, i5 processor, 16GB RAM, 4GB graphics card + 512GB SSD); an almost equivalent spec MacBook Pro (with a faster, newer processor) would be £2400... The software will run just as well on a Mac as on a Widows PC.  I don't doubt that the Mac is better built, lighter, nicer to use and will last longer but £1500 is a big chunk of money.

[Jaded]

Someone I know spent £1500 more than me on a bike!!!!!!! It's a big chunk of money.

Generally Macs are high spec, and when you compare a similar gig spec Windows machine the prices are closer.

As Ian says, there's not a lot of digging about inside settings etc.

My most recent Windows experiences are:

Mrs Jaded's laptop brought home to WFH, with a bag full of connectors and add-ons. One of which is a keyboard because the on-board one is so crappy. Another is a mouse because the trackpad is so crappy. Also a monitor dongle and a Bluetooth dongle. Its built in monitor is vile.

Brand new laptops bought to allow the organisation I work with have its staff WFH and take part in Zoom calls. Except there's a weird thing going on whereby the microphones seem to have two levels. Very quiet - unless the speaker leans in to the machine, when the level becomes hearable. Quite hard to diagnose remotely...

Most recent Mac experience, off to Mum's for the weekend, didn't bother with the MBP power supply because battery lasts about 10 hours.


I'm sure the answer for minao will be what is right for her and the budget.

[grams]

As a macbook user... I have literally no idea what this means.

What dongles am I supposed to be carrying around with me?

If someone handed you one of these would you be able to do anything with it?

[Polar Bear]

It's a question that cannot be answered.  Seemingly intelligent people in here have gone all tribal and defensive with their preferences seeking to try to highlight flaws in the opposition but only promote what they perceive as the positives of their own choice.

Reality says that both choices will work and the niche of each side has been diminished over time by the inevitable march of technology.  The best option if at all possible is to be able to try both side-by-side to see which works best for the individual.  Without that option I would say stick with the familiarity of what you know if you are not compelled to change.

[Chris N]

Someone I know spent £1500 more than me on a bike!!!!!!! It's a big chunk of money.

That's not what I meant, you git.

Generally Macs are high spec, and when you compare a similar gig spec Windows machine the prices are closer.

Agreed.  If I had the money, I'd be comparing high-end Lenovo X/T/P or Dell XPS/Precision machines with a 16" Macbook Pro.  But I don't so I thought it was worth highlighting that, on paper at least, similarly specified machines are available for less money.

I'm sure the answer for minao will be what is right for her and the budget.

Indeed.  Discussions like this are largely pointless without a budget to work to.

[Jaded]

    

[PaulF]

the dongle fest that every macbook user has to carry around with them.

As a macbook user... I have literally no idea what this means.

What dongles am I supposed to be carrying around with me?

Probably similar to the one I need to carry round with my Dell laptop if I want to connect it to a monitor, Ethernet or use more than one USB socket. The Dell one is cleverly designed to take the only USB C socket so I have a choice of either charging it or connecting to peripheral devices but not both at the same time

[ian]

PC or Laptop from a reputable system builder. What you save by not buying a mac, put towards a high quality calibrated display, graphics tablet and other nice peripherals. The overly contrasty displays on modern macs are sub-optimal for photo/video work.

1 in 10 Mac users thought to be affected by malware which has slipped passed Apple's notarising process. Apple invalidated the keys for the malware and shutdown the developer account. A new notarised version was available within the hour.
Impossible to repair. Components installed with globs of glue. That keyboard that no one likes (up until recently). And the dongle fest that every macbook user has to carry around with them. Even the lifelong Mac users I know are getting fed up with them, much more so since the Catalina update. And they are exorbitantly priced.

Aside frrom than the big mouth poop you just made (really 10% of Mac users have malware?), why does everyone go on about the bloody price? Do people go around people's houses, look the owner's fridge up and down, tut, and say 'you could one of those for £400 and got a better compressor but no, you had to buy a silver one. You twat.'

If you want a bazillion ports, a computer for £300 quid, something with 128 GB of memory, and a fan stolen from the engine of C130, you can have one. No one is out there making people buy Macs. Buy what you need and what you like. I have a computer that's reliable, fast, easy to use, and does what I want, and yes, it looks nice. The cost is a couple of hundred quid a year, pretty much a couple of nights out (though those lapdancers in facemasks is killing it for me).

[citoyen]

If someone handed you one of these would you be able to do anything with it?

Depends what they were expecting me to do with it... I could throw it in the box of obsolete tech, where it belongs. Will that do you?

I mean, if I want external storage, I have a 1TB SSD drive that's not an awful lot bigger than one of those things.

[citoyen]

Probably similar to the one I need to carry round with my Dell laptop if I want to connect it to a monitor, Ethernet or use more than one USB socket. The Dell one is cleverly designed to take the only USB C socket so I have a choice of either charging it or connecting to peripheral devices but not both at the same time

Ah, I see. Thanks for clarifying - makes a kind of sense now.

However, I only ever use my laptop as a laptop, so none of that is relevant to me.

[ian]

Stupid modern computers, where do I stick my floppy disk?

Disk, I said disk.