Author Topic: Garmin Gremlins (Etrex 30)  (Read 4480 times)

321up

  • 59° N
Garmin Gremlins (Etrex 30)
« on: 16 July, 2014, 08:56:22 pm »
We've had a few Etrex30 glitches...

1)  Powered off (total of three times) for no apparent reason but worked ok when switched back on - all three occurrences with the same pair of NiMH batteries, has not yet occurred with our other pair of NiMH or Lithium batteries.

2)  Colour floods some areas of map occasionally (briefly until the display is refreshed)

3)  Auto Archive lost data for last section of ride on one occasion - saved track at end of Audax but did not clear the track log, switched off, later after meal switched on to record ride to accommodation.  Auto archive data contains spaces rather than data text at end of file that seems to correspond to period when riding to accommodation, also the last trkpt tag is truncated and closing tags missing.  I had to repair the file before I could open it.

4)  Auto Archive data sometimes contains short sections at one sample per second which coincide with low speed

5)  "Distance to Destination" when following track - sometimes it's about right but it's just as likely to be completely wrong and of no use what so ever

Are these glitches typical?  i.e. are they due to software/design bugs or an intermittent hardware fault?

GraemeMcC

  • CaptainContours
Re: Garmin Gremlins (Etrex 30)
« Reply #1 on: 22 July, 2014, 01:10:47 pm »
My eTrex30 (~18 months old now) has had :-

1) Sporadic demonstrations of this. Using Lithium Extreme batteries. I suspect either battery tiredness or rough surfaces (I use a mount on the top of the h/b stem).

2) "Blue/brown out" if it zooms in too quickly. It will catch up eventually, of if I refresh the screen by blipping the joystick.

3) I had a panic on reviewing my archive for day 1 of MF1200, until I twigged that it stopped recording at midnight, then started a new archive.  :facepalm:  But no other problems with blank space in the file...

4) Not had that snag, yet.

5) I get occasional jumps in distances - there may be cross-over to other waypoints that it thinks are closer that it wants me to go to. I had just this thing when we came off the lanes at Rudyard on 3S27 last w/end and the next waypoint (at Bosley TLs) was nearer as the crow flies than by the main road. And also approaching Macc. I don't know if the program algorythm works out options and caches them then retrieves what it thinks is most appropriate.

So I guess (1) could be hardware glitch and (2), (5) are software. Unsure about (3) & (4).

I've also had:-
6) Map loss.  Used to store OFMlite on the uSD card. But that can vibrate out from its slider, losing contact. So if I have enough space, I keep the relevant map on the main memory space. I could still get the trace of the track though - just a blue line wiggled over a white screen.

7) Software updates re-setting my settings.  ??? I found out that Auto-night mode defaulted back to "off" with the June updated. Not tried the latest version yet, but I will check thru' all my pref's when I do let it update.
PBP 2011: 1234 km by Nr. 5678 in < 90 hrs. Most auspicious...

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Garmin Gremlins (Etrex 30)
« Reply #2 on: 22 July, 2014, 01:38:13 pm »
I've also had:-
6) Map loss.  Used to store OFMlite on the uSD card. But that can vibrate out from its slider, losing contact. So if I have enough space, I keep the relevant map on the main memory space. I could still get the trace of the track though - just a blue line wiggled over a white screen.

I've had this.  Typical symptom is a random crash, then lack of maps when it reboots.  I jibbled the slider a bit so it does a better job of staying put, and haven't had this happen for ages.  I strongly dislike this card holder design.

Of the OP's problems the only one I've had is failure to redraw part of the map.  Usually sorts itself out when you from the zoom controls.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Garmin Gremlins (Etrex 30)
« Reply #3 on: 22 July, 2014, 03:03:56 pm »
I sispect map problems are more common when using OSM because it is often overloaded with detail and doesn't seem to zoom gracefully (suppressing detail as you zoom out) the way the Garmin maps do.

5) I get occasional jumps in distances - there may be cross-over to other waypoints that it thinks are closer that it wants me to go to. I had just this thing when we came off the lanes at Rudyard on 3S27 last w/end and the next waypoint (at Bosley TLs) was nearer as the crow flies than by the main road. And also approaching Macc. I don't know if the program algorythm works out options and caches them then retrieves what it thinks is most appropriate.

When following a Route these things will always aim for the nearest point that is 'down the list' - not necessarily always the next point.  The assumption is, that you're trying to get somewhere - not just riding round aimlessly in circles - and on that basis, it's doing the right thing.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Garmin Gremlins (Etrex 30)
« Reply #4 on: 22 July, 2014, 04:26:54 pm »
I find that splitting circular routes into two halves is a good way of avoiding these sort of problems.

321up

  • 59° N
Re: Garmin Gremlins (Etrex 30)
« Reply #5 on: 23 July, 2014, 08:53:15 am »
Thanks for the replies.  Further info...

1)  Power off issue occurred once over the weekend with the same pair of NiMH batteries.  Still has not occurred with the other pair of batteries.  So far all 4 occurrences with the same pair of batteries so they are a definite suspect, but not yet conclusive.

2)  In my case the colour (usually the pink track-route colour) partially floods the screen occasionally during normal map refresh (not zoom related).  The flooding sometimes occurs on consecutive refreshes.  I've set it to display the map North up because I find it jumps about too much and the refresh is too slow when the map is orientated to direction of travel.  I usually have the scale set to 200m and I control the zoom manually.  I've not seen any screen problems on other displays, but it's almost always displaying the map whilst riding.  I think that I am using the Garmin supplied map (TOPO UK & Ireland Light).  I did load OSM maps (140509-TT OSM British-Isles+Contours) for my walking profile but I subsequently set it back to use the Garmin map.  However having just looked at the map settings it is showing both as enabled :facepalm: so perhaps my understanding of how the map selection options work is lacking.

4)  I only noticed this because I was analysing the data in a spreadsheet

5)  An example of this was on a 200km ride it showed the distance to destination increasing after about 50km, at some point it jumped to 235km then drifted around that value for most the rest of the ride.  Last weekend it seemed roughly correct but the gpx (track format) was split into sections.

I'm not using a uSD card, just the internal memory

Generally speaking I would expect most device firmware/software updates will reset default settings.

My Etrex30 has version 3.50, I'll update the firmware/software if there is a compelling reason to do so - i.e. if it fixes problems that affect me and does not introduce new ones.  The difficuilty is knowing which updates are worth doing.

321up

  • 59° N
Re: Garmin Gremlins (Etrex 30)
« Reply #6 on: 23 July, 2014, 09:16:53 am »
Map selection / changing profiles bug?

With the profile "Recreational" I enable the TOPO UK map and disable the OSM map...
... then switch to my custom profile "OSM" and the OSM map is enabled and the TOPO UK map disabled as I had previously set it, so far ok...
... now switch back to "Recreational" profile and both the TOPO UK and OSM maps are enabled ??? and the Garmin chooses to use the OSM map.


321up

  • 59° N
Re: Garmin Gremlins (Etrex 30)
« Reply #7 on: 23 July, 2014, 10:00:06 am »
When following a Route these things will always aim for the nearest point that is 'down the list' - not necessarily always the next point.  The assumption is, that you're trying to get somewhere - not just riding round aimlessly in circles - and on that basis, it's doing the right thing.

Whilst Garmin devices behave this way I will never trust them for navigation.  I still use Viewranger on a smartphone as a backup with an XTE alarm as it is far more reliable for following a route of my choosing.  I don't know how Garmin justify ignoring the route that it has been given to follow and instead direct you a different way that it has decided for itself (possibly based on incorrect map data).

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Garmin Gremlins (Etrex 30)
« Reply #8 on: 23 July, 2014, 06:23:10 pm »
Well, I'd say it's just trying to help - showing you the shortest/quickest way to your destination.  The problem arises when your destination is your front door, because a route by dictionary definition is a way of getting from one place to another.   The Garmin proprietary 'Course' format (not available on an E30) works better with circular routes, because it understands that cyclists like to ride round in circles and even understands 'laps'.
But yes, if a Garmin is offering duff info, obviously the best thing to do is ignore it.

However having just looked at the map settings it is showing both as enabled :facepalm: so perhaps my understanding of how the map selection options work is lacking.

That shouldn't really be a problem, provided it looks alright on screen (when it's not all gone purple that is).  Some maps will mask others completely, some will be partly transparent so that a map on a lower 'layer' can show through.
Issues that could arise would be information overload, and if both maps are routable, routing conflicts between the two maps.  But I often have Garmin Metroguide and OSM switched on at the same time, plus a contours overlay, so that's 3 maps - what I see is mostly Metroguide but in open country I also see the footpaths and bridleways that OSM has.  They are both routable maps so if I wanted to use autorouting I would switch the OSM off.  The contours are a transparent map on the top level so are always there, regardless of what map I see underneath.

(Though routing can be very clever - for example, OSM is much better than Metroguide around the Heathrow terminals, so I always use OSM when in that vicinity, this means 'punching a hole' in the Metroguide map around there.  Inevitably there is a bit of overlap.  However autorouting right across that region including both maps and the overlapping area, works seamlessly.)
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

321up

  • 59° N
Re: Garmin Gremlins (Etrex 30)
« Reply #9 on: 23 July, 2014, 10:15:23 pm »
That shouldn't really be a problem, provided it looks alright on screen (when it's not all gone purple that is). 

I'll try it with just one map enabled at a time and see if the map colour flooding issue goes away.  I just wish it would remember which maps are enabled and disabled on the recreational profile.  I'll try creating another custom profile and perhaps it will remember my map preferences in that.

GraemeMcC

  • CaptainContours
Re: Garmin Gremlins (Etrex 30)
« Reply #10 on: 28 July, 2014, 01:03:31 pm »
... this means 'punching a hole' in the Metroguide map around there...

ooh! How do you do that? Any specific editting software? Simple cut 'n' delete?  :o

Also, has anyone here tried correcting/advising of map errors? I encounter quite a few "features" on the OpenFietsMapLite which appear to be simple gaps in the road (with a dot on the point where the discontinuity occurs), so ought to be easy enough to "fix".  Causes routing and track saving aggro. When I get some free time, I'd like to offer my input to improve these open source maps, where I can.

[ I found some fascinating routes generated by errors near Coventry (from 3 Steps to Severn 600) which, had I followed the route offered, would have added ~30 km to the ride on a weird mix of A-roads, lanes, canal towpaths, etc! - Could form the basis of a new type of event to see who's GPS device gives the most outrageous route option! ]
PBP 2011: 1234 km by Nr. 5678 in < 90 hrs. Most auspicious...

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Garmin Gremlins (Etrex 30)
« Reply #11 on: 28 July, 2014, 02:11:59 pm »
Well OpenFietsMapsLite sounds as though it's derived more or less directly from OpenStreetMap.  In which case the stock answer would be to go in and fix it yourself, because it's like a wiki.  'All' you need to do is create your OSM login, then learn a few of the basic drawing techniques and also the basic 'rules/etiquette' about what you should and shouldn't add.  Then sit back and wait for your edits to propogate around until they appear in OpenFML.  Be warned it's addictive.

Routing problems could be quite difficult to fix, because often there are a lot of dependencies going on, over quite a large area sometimes - 'fuzzy' decisions will have been made about road priorities and so on, fixing these can feel quite intrusive.

... this means 'punching a hole' in the Metroguide map around there...
ooh! How do you do that? Any specific editting software? Simple cut 'n' delete?  :o

Well no, just in the GPS itself, you can select an individual map tile and turn it off.  (In setup map.) If you have another map underneath, it will then show through the resulting 'hole'.

Hmm - that's in my older Etrex - maybe you can't access the individual tiles in the E30.
But you can achieve the same thing by excluding a tile at the time of creating the map - for example in Mapsource you can select individual tiles and turn them on and off, before uploading to GPS - or in the Dutch routable OSM download site http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl/ you can e.g. select a country and then tick 'manual tile selection' and de-select one or more tiles within that country, then download the result (takes longer to generate the file when it's non-standard like this).

[edit to add -] You can create two maps in this way - imagine a map of 81 tiles arranged like a Sudoku board - you could create one map of 79 tiles, all except 39 and 40 say, and another map of just 39 and 40.  Load them both onto your E30.  Both will appear in the Setup>Map menu, but very likely, both will have the same name.  Doesn't matter, once you work out which is which.  Having both enabled, you get a seamless map of the area.  Disable the 39/40 map, and you punch a hole, through which another map could show. [end edit]

What may be more challenging is having some say in which maps occupy which levels.  There are (I think) a possible 31 layers in the GPS, and of course any single map also has several layers built in, so that roads appear laid across woodland and not underneath, etc.  AFAICS most Garmin detailed maps occupy layers between 25 and 30 (ie near the top). They are 'transparent' insofar as in areas where there is no mapping information at all, anything on a lower layer will show through.  Any contours-only map should obviously go to layer 31 (and be set to be transparent).  Garmin Worldmap (a crappy map that is better than the supplied basemap, but only just) occupies layer 5, I reckon.  So there's lots of space in the teens for anything else, and I assume most of the online map generators allocate their maps to a layer in the 10-25 region.  Without going deep, there is not much control over this.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

321up

  • 59° N
Re: Garmin Gremlins (Etrex 30)
« Reply #12 on: 30 July, 2014, 07:46:01 am »
[ I found some fascinating routes generated by errors near Coventry (from 3 Steps to Severn 600) which, had I followed the route offered, would have added ~30 km to the ride on a weird mix of A-roads, lanes, canal towpaths, etc! - Could form the basis of a new type of event to see who's GPS device gives the most outrageous route option! ]

You can prevent Garmin from sending you stupid routes by loading the GPX in track format - it then gives you a pink/purple line that you simply follow.  Unfortunately you don't get prompts from the Garmin in this mode, but we use the routesheet as well so that's not an issue for us.  There should be an option to force it to follow the route that you give it and disable it from helpfully changing your route.  Technically I think it should be possible to prompt from a track so they will probably add that feature in a future model (£££ to by a new device  >:().

Is there a way to keep the Etrex30 backlight on - i.e disable the timeout?

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Garmin Gremlins (Etrex 30)
« Reply #13 on: 30 July, 2014, 09:50:00 am »
Setup > Display > Backlight Timeout

(Brightness OTOH is handled elsewhere)  ::-)
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Re: Garmin Gremlins (Etrex 30)
« Reply #14 on: 30 July, 2014, 07:53:32 pm »
I'd certainly point at the batteries for the power-off problem. Not all batteries have the same length. If a set of batteries is slightly undersized it might loose contact when you hit a bump or a pothole. My old Vista had serious issues with this, my etrex 30 with only one pair. The same pair also creates problems while using in a light.

321up

  • 59° N
Re: Garmin Gremlins (Etrex 30)
« Reply #15 on: 31 July, 2014, 08:03:33 am »
I'd certainly point at the batteries for the power-off problem. Not all batteries have the same length. If a set of batteries is slightly undersized it might loose contact when you hit a bump or a pothole. My old Vista had serious issues with this, my etrex 30 with only one pair. The same pair also creates problems while using in a light.

The battery fit is good, both pairs of NiMh are identical Duracell 2400mAh and bought new to use in Etrex30.  Power off has still only happened with one battery pair.  I suspect a very occasional (~ less than once in 200km on average) intermittant battery internal fault.

321up

  • 59° N
Re: Garmin Gremlins (Etrex 30)
« Reply #16 on: 31 July, 2014, 08:13:34 am »
Setup > Display > Backlight Timeout

(Brightness OTOH is handled elsewhere)  ::-)

The maximum timeout seems to be 2 minutes, I'd like the backlight it to stay on until I switch it off, otherwise it can problematic following a track in the dark.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Garmin Gremlins (Etrex 30)
« Reply #17 on: 31 July, 2014, 09:07:24 am »
On mine, the top option in the list of times is 'Stays On'
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

321up

  • 59° N
Re: Garmin Gremlins (Etrex 30)
« Reply #18 on: 31 July, 2014, 05:18:30 pm »
On mine, the top option in the list of times is 'Stays On'
:facepalm:  ...so it is!   :thumbsup:

GraemeMcC

  • CaptainContours
Re: Garmin Gremlins (Etrex 30)
« Reply #19 on: 21 August, 2014, 12:40:34 pm »
Well OpenFietsMapsLite sounds as though it's derived more or less directly from OpenStreetMap...

..If you have another map underneath, it will then show through the resulting 'hole'...

..Hmm - that's in my older Etrex - maybe you can't access the individual tiles in the E30...

My version downloaded from OFML is one whole map for UK. No individual tiles. And I have separate map chunks for Benelux and Mallorca.
I think the E30 does overlay multiple maps, though I haven't tried it myself yet, as I've not gone "alpine" yet and worried about adding in the SMC contour overlays, or 'owt fancy like that.  (I tend to ride in "dashboard mode" with 3 panels {distance, dist to next waypoint, Waypoint name} and only dip into the map in town centres or where the instruction of my named waypoint tells me to!  :thumbsup: Saves battery power. Another top FF tip from his tutorials...  :thumbsup: )

When I started with the E30, I tried downloading individual tiled maps, etc, but it was taking far to long for an impatient novice to set up and merge, etc, then I found out I'd got non-navigable mapsets. Doh! Hence the relief when someone else OTP pointed me in the direction of OFML.  Aside from the odd "feature" (such as trying to set a route between Alston and Middlton-in-Teesdale passing Langdon Beck, that doesn't want to head miles north into Weardale! As I discovered trying to make cue-d waypoints and track sets  for The Old 240 last night) I find the OFML maps easy to read on the fly, daytime and in the dark. They do appear distorted on BaseCamp but Ok on the E30 and routes/tracks from OFML do overlay correctly back onto the standard Garmin world map given with the device.
One of these days, I'll have another go at OSM - maybe even buy a set of Garmin maps? (Maybe not!)
PBP 2011: 1234 km by Nr. 5678 in < 90 hrs. Most auspicious...

GraemeMcC

  • CaptainContours
Re: Garmin Gremlins (Etrex 30)
« Reply #20 on: 21 August, 2014, 05:58:14 pm »
You can prevent Garmin from sending you stupid routes by loading the GPX in track format - it then gives you a pink/purple line that you simply follow.  Unfortunately you don't get prompts from the Garmin in this mode, but we use the routesheet as well so that's not an issue for us. 

I tend to grab any track gpx files offered, then use that originator's track to overlay Named Waypoints per Route Sheet instructions. Then, to customize/fine tune it, I re-create the track, my track, but have to re-generate a route first, then generate my track off that. If I have time, I can then delete un-necessary track spots, or filter it down, to reduce track point numbers (and file size). It is during the re-generation of the route and its track that OFML features come into play - sometimes with amusing/irritating/stupid results. That's when blind waypoints need to be added.  Ho hum... Takes about 1hr per 100km on average.  But that gives me a track with Named Waypoints on my "dashboard" and a distance count-down. and it gives me a chance to check a route sheet for errors - not unknown, you know. And my eTrex is loaded with both a track and a route and re-navigable waypoints if I err/get diverted/take a VC167-type quick-cut off-route.

One of these days I'll get around to tidying them all up and sticking them on t'web somewhere, so that fellow northerners with eTrex units can used them too.  :D
PBP 2011: 1234 km by Nr. 5678 in < 90 hrs. Most auspicious...

321up

  • 59° N
Re: Garmin Gremlins (Etrex 30)
« Reply #21 on: 31 August, 2014, 09:32:52 am »
You can prevent Garmin from sending you stupid routes by loading the GPX in track format - it then gives you a pink/purple line that you simply follow.  Unfortunately you don't get prompts from the Garmin in this mode, but we use the routesheet as well so that's not an issue for us. 

I tend to grab any track gpx files offered, then use that originator's track to overlay Named Waypoints per Route Sheet instructions. Then, to customize/fine tune it, I re-create the track, my track, but have to re-generate a route first, then generate my track off that. If I have time, I can then delete un-necessary track spots, or filter it down, to reduce track point numbers (and file size). It is during the re-generation of the route and its track that OFML features come into play - sometimes with amusing/irritating/stupid results. That's when blind waypoints need to be added.  Ho hum... Takes about 1hr per 100km on average.  But that gives me a track with Named Waypoints on my "dashboard" and a distance count-down. and it gives me a chance to check a route sheet for errors - not unknown, you know. And my eTrex is loaded with both a track and a route and re-navigable waypoints if I err/get diverted/take a VC167-type quick-cut off-route.

One of these days I'll get around to tidying them all up and sticking them on t'web somewhere, so that fellow northerners with eTrex units can used them too.  :D

Thanks Graeme for sharing your method, I've often wondered how it was done and how long it takes.  What software do you use?  I'm finding that using an etrex 30 at night to follow a track is problematic due to backlight issues (too bright even on lowest setting - compromises night vision).  I'd like to try one of your routes if you decide to share them :thumbsup:

Re: Garmin Gremlins (Etrex 30)
« Reply #22 on: 03 September, 2014, 10:29:39 pm »
You can prevent Garmin from sending you stupid routes by loading the GPX in track format - it then gives you a pink/purple line that you simply follow.  Unfortunately you don't get prompts from the Garmin in this mode, but we use the routesheet as well so that's not an issue for us. 

I tend to grab any track gpx files offered, then use that originator's track to overlay Named Waypoints per Route Sheet instructions. Then, to customize/fine tune it, I re-create the track, my track, but have to re-generate a route first, then generate my track off that. If I have time, I can then delete un-necessary track spots, or filter it down, to reduce track point numbers (and file size). It is during the re-generation of the route and its track that OFML features come into play - sometimes with amusing/irritating/stupid results. That's when blind waypoints need to be added.  Ho hum... Takes about 1hr per 100km on average.  But that gives me a track with Named Waypoints on my "dashboard" and a distance count-down. and it gives me a chance to check a route sheet for errors - not unknown, you know. And my eTrex is loaded with both a track and a route and re-navigable waypoints if I err/get diverted/take a VC167-type quick-cut off-route.

One of these days I'll get around to tidying them all up and sticking them on t'web somewhere, so that fellow northerners with eTrex units can used them too.  :D

Thanks Graeme for sharing your method, I've often wondered how it was done and how long it takes.  What software do you use?  I'm finding that using an etrex 30 at night to follow a track is problematic due to backlight issues (too bright even on lowest setting - compromises night vision).  I'd like to try one of your routes if you decide to share them :thumbsup:

An answer to that problem is an Anti-static plastic pouch. They are kinda see-thru like sunglasses and fit over the Garmin.

PS. Get the 'smoke grey' version, NOT the 'rose pink'.  ;D

If its a rainy night, they serve two purposes,  ;)

321up

  • 59° N
Re: Garmin Gremlins (Etrex 30)
« Reply #23 on: 27 May, 2015, 12:02:47 pm »
We had a new Gremlin on Saturday, here's the sequence of what happened:

We had both track and route files on the etrex30 split into sections for the BCM.

All was working fine until the Kings to Menai section when I got a routing error (presumably due to the section of cycle route over the viaduct near Barmouth) - but no problem, I just followed the track and all seemed fine.  But this probably is not relevant to the subsequent problem...

Having loaded the route section from Menai it refused to display the route, the track and most of the map layers - it just displayed some main roads, some dotted lines and some land use features.  Despite powering off, removing batteries, stopping navigation, hiding the tracks etc it still would not display the map properly (or track or route).  I tried disabling the garmin map and enabling OSM map, but similar problem.  On Monday I tried various other things for an hour (including removing all the track & route files) before I discovered that changing profile resumed normal operation.

Any idea what caused this?  It's worrying that such a serious malfunction was not resolved by powering off and removing the batteries.  Is there a way to reset the etrex30 without deleting all the tracks, routes, waypoints etc?

JonB

  • Granny Ring ... Yes Please!
Re: Garmin Gremlins (Etrex 30)
« Reply #24 on: 27 May, 2015, 01:49:56 pm »
I'm afraid I can only add to the list of gremlins rather than solutions (having said that there may be some parallels)

Twice in the last few weeks (Brevet Cymru and Brian Chapman Memorial), I've had the same issue and both after around 350/400KM.  I follow a track using the 'where to' button so have a heavy magenta line to follow (gave up on routes about 6 months ago, too many errors).  Going around I'll use the zoom buttons manually from time to time but it's usually zoomed in quite a long way.  On these 2 occasions I've pressed the zoom and lost the track and then pressed again and the map distorted (or something strange, it happened about 3 AM both times so memory not good).  The most recent one on the BCM I turned off and attempted to turn again but nothing, only a few KM from Kings YHA so thought I'd do a battery pull there.  About a KM later it suddenly lit up and fired into life, turned on the map and there was the track.  I find it striking that it happened at similar distances and times which is probably coincidence (or maybe it just felt as tired as I did) but I've done a couple of 200s in between with no issue.