Post by: Morat on 30 July, 2020, 10:25:06 pm
The grown-ups at my place of work seem very happy without having to pay people to count cash, buy change, hire an armoured man in a van to take the cash to the bank etc.
Does anyone else have an insight?
Post by: CommuteTooFar on 31 July, 2020, 09:21:33 am
Post by: Feanor on 31 July, 2020, 09:25:57 am
Yes, handling cash has it's costs too.
Post by: Polar Bear on 31 July, 2020, 09:35:49 am
I have used a lot less cash during covid-19 than previously but I hope and expect to get back to cash when nature has run it's course.
Post by: fuaran on 31 July, 2020, 09:37:17 am
Post by: Beardy on 31 July, 2020, 11:57:48 am
Post by: Feanor on 31 July, 2020, 11:59:37 am
I really don't have much idea how reasonable the grumbling I hear is.
Contactless was supposed to be low-cost to the retailers to make it suitable as a cash replacement, I thought.
I presume there's an initial set-up cost presumably an ongoing monthly subscription to the service, then a per-transaction cost.
I've heard people saying this is running to hundreds of pounds a month.
Is that tosh?
Post by: ian on 31 July, 2020, 12:08:52 pm
Then are fees for the PoS terminal (and the data), though they're fairly cheap these days, and you get stuff that runs on your phone or tablet.
I don't know about how that stacks up against cash, I think businesses probably underestimate the actual costs in time and effort of going to banks and stuff, plus there's a risk of getting robbed – if you're a cash business, you need a float whereas cashless, the tills are empty.
Post by: Polar Bear on 31 July, 2020, 12:09:43 pm
Some businesses are keen to continue tax dodging.
Indeed but the vast majority of small traders in fact do no tax dodge. It is usually those who can afford expensive accountants and lawyers that do.
Post by: ian on 31 July, 2020, 12:10:57 pm
Post by: Polar Bear on 31 July, 2020, 12:15:10 pm
Small traders and small businesses are no different. Just another scapegoat.
Post by: Jaded on 31 July, 2020, 12:17:37 pm
There's usually a percentage transaction fee (0.2-0.3%) plus a fixed fee per transaction (I think around 2p). Leastways, that's what my wife's orchestra gets charged (they now let you pay for tickets with a PoS terminal, this mug gets to sit there and do the hard work).
Then are fees for the PoS terminal (and the data), though they're fairly cheap these days, and you get stuff that runs on your phone or tablet.
I don't know about how that stacks up against cash, I think businesses probably underestimate the actual costs in time and effort of going to banks and stuff, plus there's a risk of getting robbed – if you're a cash business, you need a float whereas cashless, the tills are empty.
From memory counting several grand from a till, reconciling it and preparing the float for the next day would take maybe 15 mins if all was well. The cash float would also be counted by the cashier at the beginning of the day/shift. Some people able to work much faster than others. Banking - maybe 30 mins? Couriers to pick the cash up £xxx. Contract to supply £yy.
Post by: rafletcher on 31 July, 2020, 12:32:54 pm
I've seen reports that many small businesses want to re-balance back towards cash due to the high costs of the card payment processors.
Yes, handling cash has it's costs too.
And other small retailers seem to actively encourage it - certainly the gee-gaw and birthday cards place in Tring has done so for quite some time, well before the lockdown.
Post by: rafletcher on 31 July, 2020, 12:35:32 pm
It would be nice if middle class England stopped passing judgement on traders who accept cash.
Accepting cash is one one thing, demanding it exclusively is another.
Post by: davelodwig on 31 July, 2020, 12:37:37 pm
It's fiddly, comes in awkward sizes, and requires me to either end up with odd lumps of random change or fiddle around trying to make up amounts.
I like paying by contactless card, I have three cards in my wallet and one of them is my driving licence, I don't have to check if I have enough cash, or find a bank or cash machine, if I want a coffee (or beer ) I order, tap and go. Cash means I have to make trips specifically to get money, it's a hindrance and get's in the way, especially when the one cash machine is broken so I have to then travel to Stroud, or Nailsworth to find a working one.
At least my banking app let's me scan cheques so I don't have to go to a bank (which is at least open half a day on Saturdays ) to deal with them when people insist on not using online banking.
Money is an enabler, I don't want faff around using it, cash is faffy, cheques are worse, they put admin in the way of doing the things I want.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 31 July, 2020, 12:38:02 pm
I've seen reports that many small businesses want to re-balance back towards cash due to the high costs of the card payment processors.
Yes, handling cash has it's costs too.
I remember one of the main ideas of contactless was it would allow the card companies to undercut the banks cash handling charges.
TBH, if businesses aren't adjusting their prices to suit their operating costs, they've only got themselves to blame; I'm not paying cash unless they give no other option and there isn't another place to go to that will take cards; cash is just too inconvenient.
The only place I’ve paid cash in recent time sis the barbers shop, whence I had to go out to the cash machine especially once the deed had been done. The barber complained that the machine providers she’d tried all wanted 10% of each transaction which she considered to high a cost.
I wish I could remember accurately what the cost of banking a five pound note was back in 2002.
Walking through Dundee with 3 grand on me was scary enough.
A few months later the safe was emptied by an unwanted nighttime visitor
Being a computer shop, the majority of our sales were card based.
From memory counting several grand from a till, reconciling it and preparing the float for the next day would take maybe 15 mins if all was well. The cash float would also be counted by the cashier at the beginning of the day/shift. Some people able to work much faster than others. Banking - maybe 30 mins? Couriers to pick the cash up £xxx. Contract to supply £yy.
We were pretty quick at the cashing up, but it was 1 till per shop and a small float and a 5 minute walk to the bank and back, maybe 10 mins in side.
Post by: Polar Bear on 31 July, 2020, 12:46:33 pm
It would be nice if middle class England stopped passing judgement on traders who accept cash.
Accepting cash is one one thing, demanding it exclusively is another.
I agree entirely.
I prefer cash but am willing to use contactless. I don't like the lack of security that comes with contactless. I speak as somebody who once had his back pocket stealthily cut and wallet removed. This was in the pre-contactless days and my wallet was found minus the £40 in cash but with my bank cards intact.
I don't do online banking either. Everybody has the right to choose and I still do not believe that it is secure enough. Having worked in the fraud prevention and detection sector for 16 years and still having not only friends but a family member currently working in that sector, I haven't been convinced at all to change my view.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 31 July, 2020, 12:51:59 pm
I prefer cash but am willing to use contactless. I don't like the lack of security that comes with contactless. I speak as somebody who once had his back pocket stealthily cut and wallet removed. This was in the pre-contactless days and my wallet was found minus the £40 in cash but with my bank cards intact.
Unless the perpetrator is caught and can prove they took 40 quid off you, that 40 quid is gone for ever and its your problem.
If the card is used after the point you spot it's been nicked, it's your banks problem.
Card is made more secure by the rules applied to it by law.
Cash is a free for all.
Post by: Polar Bear on 31 July, 2020, 12:54:58 pm
Post by: Morat on 31 July, 2020, 02:17:33 pm
From my point of view, contactless on your phone via Android Pay or Apple Pay is the best of all worlds. Contactless payment, without the £45 limit and every transaction is secured by the fingerprint reader on your phone. There's no need for a receipt as your spending history is available through the app as well as the normal notification on your bank account. The downside is the fact that Google/Apple probably know what you've bought and from whom. I don't know if they actually care about me that much. Perhaps if I had a SuperDuper Amex bound to my phone they'd take me more seriously.
I do still carry my bank cards but I should probably regard them as the backup that I keep in a safe place at home since they are more vulnerable to being used after a wallet loss/theft.
Phone batteries do vary and I still tuck a card in my saddle bag between the spare tubes and CO2 canisters just in case!
From the retailer's point of view, at least the small to medium-sized one that I work for, removing cash from the equation does seem to remove a lot of work. With 15 or so tills on a busy day and seven-day trading, it took a cashier in Accounts probably half a day a week to count up the cash and put it into £20k bags for the security van to take away. So, we needed a safe, and insurance, and change orders, and people checking the cash. etc etc.
I've asked around since the first post and most people at work seem happier to stay cash-free forever, with the occasional warning that some older people get confused by cards or don't trust them - but it's not hard to show them how to work a contactless transaction so maybe that will become a non-issue. Similarly, we hardly ever (like maybe twice a year?) take a cheque at a Retail till despite it still being an option.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 31 July, 2020, 02:21:21 pm
Er, no. It is your problem unless you can convince your bank that you didn't use your debit card. It can take a lot of effort and plenty of stress to resolve the issue.
"Shouldn't" be much more than the crime number and the date/time of reporting.
Your 40 quid cash is still gone for ever as soon as it's gone
the £45 quid debit card transaction is technically recoverable.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 31 July, 2020, 02:38:40 pm
I have not used cash for two years in the UK. Have used Euros the foreigners seem to be behind us.
Not round these parts they aren't.
Amsterdam is largely cashless now. But what makes it worse tho is that it's local cards only. Because everyone here gets a Maestro or vpay card from their bank, and those cards work everywhere when we travel, the assumption is that the reverse is true, when you explain to a Dutch person how UK debit cards work, how they are functionally (to the retailer) the same as a credit card etc... And they just look at you like you're crazy.
Maestro has locked the market here because the processing fees are so cheap. Just €0.02 per transaction for a company doing 500 transactions a month.
But it comes with no buyer protection. And doesn't work online. For online they get round this due to a system called iDeal, which only works within the BeNeLux. But it's just a front end for the local equivalent of a BACS transfer. It has zero buyer protection built in. Last year i was explaining this to a friend's family member. They said this system was fine and they didn't like the idea that there were extra processing costs for the retailer just for buyer protection.
2 months ago said person comes to me for advice. They ordered something from some website, and paid by iDeal and it never arrived. She spoke to her bank and they said they couldn't help. The police couldn't do much either.
My reply rhymes with i bold you crow...
The lack of consumer protection can be a bit or a pain. Many don't realise this until they need it, then it's too late.
I like contactless. It's just so damn easy. But I do wish there was more protection for the average person. And that I could use my credit card in more places.
But then it's also important to remember. A cashless society is a surveillance society.
J
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 31 July, 2020, 02:44:03 pm
Post by: ian on 31 July, 2020, 03:36:31 pm
Mixed feelings because of a lack of control. I mentioned that TfL once decided to simply remove my ability to use my card to travel because it had failed a revenue check. No notification, no nothing. They just stopped it. The only way I found out was checking my account (and it was their error, not mine). Now, fortunately, I have multiple cards, but simply paying cash to buy a ticket was at least an option. You can't arbitrarily discontinue a five-pound note like you can a card.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 31 July, 2020, 04:54:14 pm
which is good because:
It's made of old inner tubes; tough and cycley!
It's very slim and flat, good for a trouser or jersey pocket
Good cause etc
It wouldn't be any good for coins but you could keep banknotes in there.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 31 July, 2020, 05:00:28 pm
I use a network Railcard wallet from national rail. I pick up a few when I'm in the UK. They seem to work well. Very compact.
J
Post by: Polar Bear on 31 July, 2020, 05:08:53 pm
I "dumped my wallet" at the start of lockdown in favour of this: https://www.cycleofgood.com/shop/gifts/wallets-and-purses/pocket-wallet/
which is good because:
It's made of old inner tubes; tough and cycley!
It's very slim and flat, good for a trouser or jersey pocket
Good cause etc
It wouldn't be any good for coins but you could keep banknotes in there.
Nice find Cudzo.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 31 July, 2020, 05:42:49 pm
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 07 August, 2020, 05:27:47 pm
There is actually a serious point to this (otherwise it would just go in the Div thread). Notes are clearly marked with their denomination on both sides, but on coins it's much less clear. The markings are smaller, they tend to be one side only, and they're sometimes in numerals, sometimes in words. We really rely on familiarity to distinguish them.
Unfortunately the same problem can even apply to card payments. In certain lights or at some angles, the display on the payment terminal can be unclear.
Post by: markcjagar on 07 August, 2020, 05:41:00 pm
Post by: Ashaman42 on 07 August, 2020, 05:48:56 pm
It probably makes it look like I don't trust them but I'd rather know it was right.
Especially after a Christmas meal where a friend tried to pay contactless £2500 instead of £25! Obviously that didn't go through but a miskeyed (as it was this time) entry could easily turn £2.50 into £25 for example and that would go through.
Post by: Ashaman42 on 07 August, 2020, 05:49:58 pm
I know I know, they're no doubt cheaper.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 07 August, 2020, 05:56:53 pm
Pubs and butty shops love cash and I prefer using cash in independent businesses because the card processing fees are a larger chunk of their profits. Always use card in chain stops, they can afford the hit.You'd think so, but the only shops I know which absolutely insist on card payments – I've seen them turn away customers who wanted to pay cash – are little, independent, single-shop places. Mind you, so are the ones which don't take cards. So I guess there's no strict rule relating size to preferred mode of payment.
Post by: Jaded on 07 August, 2020, 06:32:07 pm
One is a % on turnover, one is a drain on time
Post by: Davef on 07 August, 2020, 07:11:03 pm
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 07 August, 2020, 07:24:30 pm
Post by: Wombat on 07 August, 2020, 07:29:04 pm
Post by: Polar Bear on 07 August, 2020, 07:30:20 pm
I've had to handle cash a bit over the last couple of weeks, mainly on volly Fridays, and it took me a week or two to get used to the coinage again. I only made one mistake though; gave some a £2 coin in change by mistake for a £1. ::-)
There is actually a serious point to this (otherwise it would just go in the Div thread). Notes are clearly marked with their denomination on both sides, but on coins it's much less clear. The markings are smaller, they tend to be one side only, and they're sometimes in numerals, sometimes in words. We really rely on familiarity to distinguish them.
Unfortunately the same problem can even apply to card payments. In certain lights or at some angles, the display on the payment terminal can be unclear.
I cannot even read the card machine now that it sits tantalisingly out of my focal range behind a slab of plastic.
I have to stand there with my thick reading glasses checking the receipt before I leave the shop now. It is a small inconvenience.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 07 August, 2020, 07:41:33 pm
From the point of view of Polar-vision, what could shops do to improve readability of card machines?I've had to handle cash a bit over the last couple of weeks, mainly on volly Fridays, and it took me a week or two to get used to the coinage again. I only made one mistake though; gave some a £2 coin in change by mistake for a £1. ::-)
There is actually a serious point to this (otherwise it would just go in the Div thread). Notes are clearly marked with their denomination on both sides, but on coins it's much less clear. The markings are smaller, they tend to be one side only, and they're sometimes in numerals, sometimes in words. We really rely on familiarity to distinguish them.
Unfortunately the same problem can even apply to card payments. In certain lights or at some angles, the display on the payment terminal can be unclear.
I cannot even read the card machine now that it sits tantalisingly out of my focal range behind a slab of plastic.
I have to stand there with my thick reading glasses checking the receipt before I leave the shop now. It is a small inconvenience.
The bakery down the road – one of the places which is card-only – uses a different machine to most. I think it might be Apple Pay? There's a small white box with a green light, this changes to a row of green lights when your payment has gone through. The actual amount appears on a separate screen, like a standard computer monitor, where it appears in "large friendly numbers" as Mr Larrington might say. I guess it might be something like a 48-point font. However, this does rely on the assistant turning the screen round so you can see it... which 99% of the time, they do. TBF, since lockdown it's been 100%.
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 07 August, 2020, 09:08:12 pm
Question for the folks au fait with Google Pay. Can you add a pre payment card (I'm thinking Pure, which I use cos I get money back) to it?
I tried adding it and it didn't work, so I assume it's a no.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 07 August, 2020, 09:22:18 pm
The terminals are in theory capable of a bit more than just shewing you what you're about to pay.
Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
Post by: Paul H on 07 August, 2020, 09:42:22 pm
Post by: Kim on 07 August, 2020, 11:35:47 pm
From the point of view of Polar-vision, what could shops do to improve readability of card machines?
Not using murky early-1990s era liquid crystal displays would surely be a good start. Unless the terminal is battery powered, there's no good reason not to use a nice crisp OLED display or similar.
Then you're into the tricky business of GUI design. Choice of fonts and colours is tricky, even before you're faced with different people having conflicting preferences for optimum readability. And of course it will be aesthetically optimised to appeal to the people buying the EPOS equipment, rather than the end users...
Related moan: ZX Spectrum style rubber keypads. No tactile feedback, little hope of useful auditory feedback in a shop environment. Surely we can do better...
Post by: giropaul on 08 August, 2020, 08:35:46 am
The other thing I keep cash for is tipping. If I add a tip to a card payment how do I know that it all goes to the staff? If I’ve received exceptional service from someone I want that person to benefit from the tip.
Post by: Polar Bear on 08 August, 2020, 09:13:05 am
From the point of view of Polar-vision, what could shops do to improve readability of card machines?I've had to handle cash a bit over the last couple of weeks, mainly on volly Fridays, and it took me a week or two to get used to the coinage again. I only made one mistake though; gave some a £2 coin in change by mistake for a £1. ::-)
There is actually a serious point to this (otherwise it would just go in the Div thread). Notes are clearly marked with their denomination on both sides, but on coins it's much less clear. The markings are smaller, they tend to be one side only, and they're sometimes in numerals, sometimes in words. We really rely on familiarity to distinguish them.
Unfortunately the same problem can even apply to card payments. In certain lights or at some angles, the display on the payment terminal can be unclear.
I cannot even read the card machine now that it sits tantalisingly out of my focal range behind a slab of plastic.
I have to stand there with my thick reading glasses checking the receipt before I leave the shop now. It is a small inconvenience.
...
No much re the equipment I sm afraid.
I keep a mental running total as I go round a shop. Some cashiers still tell you the amount due before setting off the process of payment. This helps because I can immediately flag up a discrepancy and have done so many times. I do flag up under-charging as well as overcharging.
There must be tens of thousands of people like me who find these systems difficult but minorities don't have a sufficiently loud voice.
Post by: Giraffe on 08 August, 2020, 09:23:48 am
Post by: Little Jim on 08 August, 2020, 10:05:20 am
Question for the folks au fait with Google Pay. Can you add a pre payment card (I'm thinking Pure, which I use cos I get money back) to it?
I tried adding it and it didn't work, so I assume it's a no.
I use a Revolute card with Google Pay on my phone and that works fine.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 08 August, 2020, 11:41:02 am
Reading the numerals for chip'n'PIN: the legend is becoming all blurry - not eyesight but sanitiser methinks. Some sanitisers do leave a residue - certainly the one via foot pump outside Waitrose does (is this a first-world problem?) and I use a lot as hands first then extra to cover all the areas of the trolley that I touch (plus another squib on leaving).Yes, Waitrose is definitely a first-world problem. :D
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 08 August, 2020, 11:44:19 am
Only some? They really all ought to do this, for every transaction. Though thinking about it, I'm not sure if the staff at the Co-op on the main road do, but they do at the one up the road and the bigger one next to the car wash. So it would seem to vary with staff attitudes and/or training.From the point of view of Polar-vision, what could shops do to improve readability of card machines?I've had to handle cash a bit over the last couple of weeks, mainly on volly Fridays, and it took me a week or two to get used to the coinage again. I only made one mistake though; gave some a £2 coin in change by mistake for a £1. ::-)
There is actually a serious point to this (otherwise it would just go in the Div thread). Notes are clearly marked with their denomination on both sides, but on coins it's much less clear. The markings are smaller, they tend to be one side only, and they're sometimes in numerals, sometimes in words. We really rely on familiarity to distinguish them.
Unfortunately the same problem can even apply to card payments. In certain lights or at some angles, the display on the payment terminal can be unclear.
I cannot even read the card machine now that it sits tantalisingly out of my focal range behind a slab of plastic.
I have to stand there with my thick reading glasses checking the receipt before I leave the shop now. It is a small inconvenience.
...
No much re the equipment I sm afraid.
I keep a mental running total as I go round a shop. Some cashiers still tell you the amount due before setting off the process of payment. This helps because I can immediately flag up a discrepancy and have done so many times. I do flag up under-charging as well as overcharging.
There must be tens of thousands of people like me who find these systems difficult but minorities don't have a sufficiently loud voice.
Post by: Polar Bear on 08 August, 2020, 12:02:35 pm
Cashier: How would you like to pay?
PB: How much is that please?
Cashier: ... points to screen or says, It's on the screen.
PB: I am registered blind. Can you tell me what it says please?
There are various endings from this point from clear frustration through to embarrassed over-helpfulness. It's just part of my life.
Post by: Kim on 08 August, 2020, 12:28:32 pm
Post by: citoyen on 08 August, 2020, 12:55:43 pm
The downside is the fact that Google/Apple probably know what you've bought and from whom.
Not automatically.
They get a transaction ID, but they have to make an effort to match that up to a retailer - it isn’t always obvious.
I don’t think they have any way of knowing exactly what you have bought.
Post by: barakta on 08 August, 2020, 12:58:26 pm
Post by: rafletcher on 08 August, 2020, 02:04:39 pm
Post by: Polar Bear on 08 August, 2020, 03:30:17 pm
Post by: Lightning Phil on 08 August, 2020, 03:59:20 pm
Not automatically.
They get a transaction ID, but they have to make an effort to match that up to a retailer - it isn’t always obvious.
I don’t think they have any way of knowing exactly what you have bought.
For card payments there will be an acquirer who manages the transactions on behalf of a merchant. Transactions are often not settled till overnight though some are near real time now. The transactions details will also include a MID, which is a unique identifier for a merchant. If the merchant is a single shop then the MID essentially will allow you to know where the purchase was. For multiple chains not the case. Whether Apple or Google act as an acquirer in this case I don’t know. It wouldn’t surprise me in their pursuit of ever larger profits.
As for what you bought that’s nothing to do with the payment side of transaction outside of reconciliation within the merchants internal stock control, financial, and payment systems. Before bar codes and scanning systems the merchants Weren’t even aware of that. A product would just be rung up as a price and possibly against a department for bigger shops.
For contactless as with chip / pin not every transaction involves contacting the card issuers online systems for authorisation. Often the chip on the card will issue an authorisation code for the transaction. That will be recognised by the issuers systems when the acquirer settles the transaction. Settling a transaction means asking the card issuing bank / financial institution for the money to be transferred into the merchants account etc. There’s a bit more going on but you get the idea.
Post by: Pingu on 10 August, 2020, 04:04:52 pm
...The other thing I keep cash for is tipping. If I add a tip to a card payment how do I know that it all goes to the staff? If I’ve received exceptional service from someone I want that person to benefit from the tip.
A local café is using something called TipJar: https://www.thecoffeeapothecary.co.uk/blog/tips-are-changing/
Post by: citoyen on 10 August, 2020, 05:06:25 pm
The transactions details will also include a MID, which is a unique identifier for a merchant. If the merchant is a single shop then the MID essentially will allow you to know where the purchase was. For multiple chains not the case.
They can (and do) work it out using the location information provided by your phone...
Post by: mark on 10 August, 2020, 06:40:18 pm
...The other thing I keep cash for is tipping. If I add a tip to a card payment how do I know that it all goes to the staff? If I’ve received exceptional service from someone I want that person to benefit from the tip.
A local café is using something called TipJar: https://www.thecoffeeapothecary.co.uk/blog/tips-are-changing/
Very nice, but who pays for this website/app? Is a service fee deducted from each tip?
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 10 August, 2020, 08:50:13 pm
Question for the folks au fait with Google Pay. Can you add a pre payment card (I'm thinking Pure, which I use cos I get money back) to it?
I tried adding it and it didn't work, so I assume it's a no.
I use a Revolute card with Google Pay on my phone and that works fine.
Tried it 3 times. It doesn't work.
Post by: DuncanM on 17 August, 2020, 10:23:35 am
Whether Apple or Google act as an acquirer in this case I don’t know. It wouldn’t surprise me in their pursuit of ever larger profits.Apple and Google aren't the acquirer - they are on the customer side of the fence supplying card details. The acquirer is on the merchant side of the fence - they usually provide the PIN entry device and the POS supplier will have to make the POS software interact with that provided by the acquirer. MID identifies the merchant to the acquirer, the TID (often included in the transaction metadata) identifies the terminal, so not only can they know which shop you were in, but they know which PED you used. The MID is what is used to provide the name of the retailer on your credit card bill, but they won't know what you bought, only the details as to the payment.
In terms of the merchant knowing what you buy, nothing beats a loyalty card.
The acquirers keep changing their minds as to how they deal with offline transactions - I think the current state of affairs for most is that you can do chip and pin offline, but you have to be online to do contactless.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 31 August, 2020, 08:36:00 am
Post by: Polar Bear on 31 August, 2020, 08:40:13 am
Never had a kebab myself. Can you get vegetarian ones?
Post by: Ben T on 31 August, 2020, 09:16:20 am
Post by: rafletcher on 31 August, 2020, 10:40:42 am
I went to the barbers the other day, they have lots of covid safe measures like customers wearing masks, them wearing visors, no walk ins, but then when I came to pay they only take cash. What's that about then? They even then sent an email to ask for a review. I put "great haircut - but contactless payment would have been nice, although you'd have to pay tax then I suppose"
Since most barbers and hairdressers are sole traders renting a chair, it may just be a simpler way for the salon owner of dividing the takings at the end of the day. But probably not.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 31 August, 2020, 11:21:32 am
Never had a kebab myself. Can you get vegetarian ones?Yes, but not from Grecian.
Post by: mark on 31 August, 2020, 02:03:35 pm
Around here the barbers and hairdressers plug a device into their smartphone that lets them swipe your credit card themselves and put the money in their account, including the tip. Not quite contactless, but it’s pretty easy to sanitize the phone between customers.I went to the barbers the other day, they have lots of covid safe measures like customers wearing masks, them wearing visors, no walk ins, but then when I came to pay they only take cash. What's that about then? They even then sent an email to ask for a review. I put "great haircut - but contactless payment would have been nice, although you'd have to pay tax then I suppose"
Since most barbers and hairdressers are sole traders renting a chair, it may just be a simpler way for the salon owner of dividing the takings at the end of the day. But probably not.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 November, 2020, 12:12:54 pm
Post by: robgul on 02 November, 2020, 02:25:18 pm
* I have been paying one of our neighbours in cash notes when he delivers the beer order from the neighbourhood "direct from the local micro-brewery" purchasing consortium every Friday
Post by: quixoticgeek on 02 November, 2020, 02:44:13 pm
I had to go to a Doctors surgery to pick up a prescription for a friend. They accepted cash only, and right money too please. That was a pain in the arse. First time I've needed cash in months...
J
Post by: Greenbank on 02 November, 2020, 02:56:11 pm
So according to some, Grecian Kebab is a tax evader.
Missing the point somewhat.
Taking cash makes it much easier to evade tax by not declaring income/turnover. It's as simple as putting some of the cash in your pocket rather than through the till.
Taking card payments means you generally have to employ an accountant to find more convoluted ways of evading tax as there's an audit trail for all of the income/turnover. This is where business ownersdo things like buying furniture/TVs/etc for their business but they end up in their own home.
I've had various chats with London cabbies over the years. Some of them are quite open about why they prefer to take cash, of the ones that did talk candidly to me the general consensus is that they put about 1/2 to 2/3 of their fares through the books (any less and it looks dodgy compared to the mileage/fuel they are claiming). The rest goes straight into their pocket as undeclared income (with no corporation tax or income tax to pay). It's got to the point that it is so rife there's no way it can really be tackled. (Obviously there will be some taxi drivers that do put everything through the books, they're not all crooks). (It's not limited to London taxi drivers, private hire drivers could do exactly the same thing.)
It's why the London Taxi Drivers Network (or whatever it is) are so against card payments (and why the card machine, if present, is so often "temporarily out of order") or smart Taximeters that track journeys, print receipts and (most importantly) are auditable. The usual deflection tactic is to point to Uber (the corporation) and say that they don't pay enough/any corporation tax - conveniently ignoring the fact that the individual Uber drivers can't easily avoid paying tax as they don't receive cash for fares and everything they earn is easily auditable.
It's not just cab drivers either. How many people have a cleaner and pay them in cash? Do you think all of that is being declared? Do you think waiting staff declare every single penny of their cash tips as they should? etc.
Post by: Greenbank on 02 November, 2020, 03:02:05 pm
It's not just cab drivers either. How many people have a cleaner and pay them in cash? Do you think all of that is being declared? Do you think waiting staff declare every single penny of their cash tips as they should? etc.
Last time we had a cleaner (when we both worked close to full time) we did pay them in cash, so I'm far from squeaky clean myself.
But when we had our garden redone recently (~£5k) we made sure we used a firm that was invoicing us properly, including VAT, and only accepting payments to a business bank account.
It's not just the tradesperson that evades paying VAT by accepting cash, the purchaser is often complicit in it too.
Post by: mark on 02 November, 2020, 03:22:34 pm
Post by: Greenbank on 02 November, 2020, 03:23:45 pm
Are tradespeople, taxi drivers and waiters who neglect to declare their cash income any different than the very wealthy who employ a long list of dodgy stratagems to reduce their tax liability? Personally I'm a good bit more offended by Donald Trump only paying US$750 in US income tax for a few years than I am by some waiter or taxi driver pocketing a few dollars in cash income. I'm pretty sure the UK has a few examples of similar behavior by the rich and powerful.
Sure, but that's just whataboutery and avoids/deflects from the original point about cash.
The cab drivers I spoke to speak about pocketing sums of ~£20k/year. It's not just a bit of change.
Post by: ian on 02 November, 2020, 03:37:32 pm
Are tradespeople, taxi drivers and waiters who neglect to declare their cash income any different than the very wealthy who employ a long list of dodgy stratagems to reduce their tax liability? Personally I'm a good bit more offended by Donald Trump only paying US$750 in US income tax for a few years than I am by some waiter or taxi driver pocketing a few dollars in cash income. I'm pretty sure the UK has a few examples of similar behavior by the rich and powerful.
Certainly, but it's the same sort of morality involved. It ought to be evident in the middle of a pandemic how much we're dependent on government that's funded from taxation.
Post by: Polar Bear on 02 November, 2020, 04:06:30 pm
Tax evaders exist at all levels of society and it is still all to easy to use more than one bank account and funnel a proportion of your income through an undeclared account. I lost count of how many of my clients asked me what the price would be for cash and my reply was "Just the same.". And, I always gave a receipt though of course they can be easy "lost" too.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 November, 2020, 04:46:33 pm
It's why the London Taxi Drivers Network (or whatever it is) are so against card payments (and why the card machine, if present, is so often "temporarily out of order") or smart Taximeters that track journeys, print receipts and (most importantly) are auditable. The usual deflection tactic is to point to Uber (the corporation) and say that they don't pay enough/any corporation tax - conveniently ignoring the fact that the individual Uber drivers can't easily avoid paying tax as they don't receive cash for fares and everything they earn is easily auditable.I guess that's why they introduced "fiscal registers" in taxis in Poland back in 2004. In that case, it was joining the EU that provided an excuse ("union VAT rules"). Card payments not necessary.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 31 December, 2020, 01:13:24 pm
Post by: mllePB on 31 December, 2020, 04:15:08 pm
Pubs and butty shops love cash and I prefer using cash in independent businesses because the card processing fees are a larger chunk of their profits. Always use card in chain stops, they can afford the hit.
Pre covid, I worked in central Birmingham and used to visit a lunchtime sandwich place regularly which was card-only. The place was a tiny independent business with just one member of staff. Not having cash on the premises made it a lot safer for the staff in a location between nice offices and less desirable inner city.
I've been missing their Portuguese custards and thinking about this now, I looked them up only to find out that they've permanently shut :'(
Post by: Asterix, the former Gaul. on 31 December, 2020, 08:42:42 pm
Post by: rafletcher on 31 December, 2020, 08:49:11 pm
Pre covid, I worked in central Birmingham and used to visit a lunchtime sandwich place regularly which was card-only. The place was a tiny independent business with just one member of staff. Not having cash on the premises made it a lot safer for the staff in a location between nice offices and less desirable inner city.
We have a gee-gaw gifts type shop who likewise prefer card payments.
I’ve hardly used cash since March, mainly using my phone to pay from my credit card.
Post by: orienteer on 31 December, 2020, 09:12:42 pm
The only other place I've needed cash is for the (council owned) supermarket car park machines, but they've just installed new machines that accept card payments.
Post by: ian on 01 January, 2021, 05:34:08 pm
Pubs and butty shops love cash and I prefer using cash in independent businesses because the card processing fees are a larger chunk of their profits. Always use card in chain stops, they can afford the hit.
Pre covid, I worked in central Birmingham and used to visit a lunchtime sandwich place regularly which was card-only. The place was a tiny independent business with just one member of staff. Not having cash on the premises made it a lot safer for the staff in a location between nice offices and less desirable inner city.
I've been missing their Portuguese custards and thinking about this now, I looked them up only to find out that they've permanently shut :'(
I'm often conscripted to man the doors and collect money from punters churning up for my wife's orchestra's gigs. Or I was, when such a thing was a thing. They all have little PoS terminals that plug into a phone. Fees are pretty minimal and there are no cash hassles or risk of having the cash box nicked because you've entrusted it to a conscripted halfwit.
I saw cash for the first time yesterday when the magic pub man opined the last two pints of dank beer from the bottom of the barrel that he'd bottled up for me might not be entirely drinkable, so he gave me £11.20 in cash back (he's not figured out card refunds yet) and wished me luck. I've not tried drinking it yet, but now it's free beer there's no way I can't not drink it.
Post by: mllePB on 01 January, 2021, 06:28:24 pm
Fruit and veg stall in our High St only takes cash, but takings are mostly relatively small sums so probably not economic to take cards.Veg stall on our local market starting offering a card machine in lockdown#1. I sense reluctance though.
The only other place I've needed cash is for the (council owned) supermarket car park machines, but they've just installed new machines that accept card payments.
Post by: Polar Bear on 26 January, 2021, 07:52:22 am
Post by: Kim on 26 January, 2021, 02:42:23 pm
News item on the interwebs today about tech issues affecting stores taking card payments recently. How do you do business in a post cash tech appocalypse?
Large shops closing during electricity/comms/computer outages because it's less hassle than the stock control system getting out of sync isn't really a new thing. The smaller businesses who might have carried on for cash transactions with a pen and paper and some rusty mental arithmetic would be more affected.
Things could get very interesting if some prolonged catastrophe meant that cash was needed now people are getting out of the habit of holding any. The core infrastructure's pretty reliable, but it wouldn't take much for everyone in a geographical area to lose access to it. I'm thinking New York flooding sort of events.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 26 January, 2021, 03:59:01 pm
Post by: Kim on 26 January, 2021, 04:01:16 pm
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 26 January, 2021, 04:06:04 pm
Post by: Polar Bear on 26 January, 2021, 04:14:04 pm
Other than paying the utility bills we could probably survive for a few months if we could fight off the mutant hoardes.
Post by: Jaded on 26 January, 2021, 06:48:59 pm
Post by: ian on 26 January, 2021, 08:36:55 pm
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 26 January, 2021, 09:39:37 pm
Post by: Adam on 26 January, 2021, 10:22:35 pm
That way, the staff don't have to handle dirty money.
And it takes the old pound coins.
Much better than those Coinstar machines that some supermarkets have, to exchange coins for notes, which charge about 7.5%.
Post by: Jaded on 26 January, 2021, 10:31:43 pm
We have a pile of cash stashed in a drawer in the kitchen, mostly pounds and dollars, plus random travel currency that never got changed back because it's probably worth 35p. I should probably check that any of it is still legal currency. When I travelled a lot, especially in places like Africa, I'd always take a stash of dollars.
Ah, foreign money, that's different. I have Serbian Things, Euros, Canadian Dollars (managed to get rid of the Dollar Dollars).
As you say, good to make sure it is still legal. I'll never forget the look on the face of the shop assistant in Muizenberg when I proffered some Rands I'd found in a drawer before our holiday.
Post by: Kim on 26 January, 2021, 11:53:50 pm
Much better than those Coinstar machines that some supermarkets have, to exchange coins for notes, which charge about 7.5%.
I prefer the self checkouts which will exchange large quantities of small change for, well, shopping.
Post by: robgul on 27 January, 2021, 08:15:00 am
I've found that my local Nat West where I have my business account has installed a whizzy spinning cash counting machine. Open up the lid, pour a bucket load of coins into a circular sieve, shut the lid, and then it spins round very fast so all the coins get distributed out, and then it gives you a printout for the amount paid in, which you then take to the desk to get added to your account.
That way, the staff don't have to handle dirty money.
And it takes the old pound coins.
Much better than those Coinstar machines that some supermarkets have, to exchange coins for notes, which charge about 7.5%.
The NatWest machine I used a few years ago when we were handling a lot of charity bucket cash managed to recognise the dud old pound coins and chuck them back (it usually took 3 or 4 goes to get the machine to take them ;D )
Post by: Polar Bear on 27 January, 2021, 08:19:31 am
We have a pile of cash stashed in a drawer in the kitchen, mostly pounds and dollars, plus random travel currency that never got changed back because it's probably worth 35p. I should probably check that any of it is still legal currency. When I travelled a lot, especially in places like Africa, I'd always take a stash of dollars.
Ah, foreign money, that's different. I have Serbian Things, Euros, Canadian Dollars (managed to get rid of the Dollar Dollars).
As you say, good to make sure it is still legal. I'll never forget the look on the face of the shop assistant in Muizenberg when I proffered some Rands I'd found in a drawer before our holiday.
We still have a small amount of Moroccan from the last time we took a plane. March 2005.
Some folk will choose to misinterpret that statement. 😃
Post by: Adam on 27 January, 2021, 08:59:07 am
I hate to think how long £175.84 would take me to feed into the self service checkout! I only do 1 big supermarket shop every 10 days or so.Much better than those Coinstar machines that some supermarkets have, to exchange coins for notes, which charge about 7.5%.
I prefer the self checkouts which will exchange large quantities of small change for, well, shopping.
Post by: giropaul on 27 January, 2021, 09:06:51 am
At the moment ( well, in normal times) I’ll pay by card but tip in cash. If cash virtually disappears that’s going to be more difficult.
I also use cash on the bike. I’m sure that it’s just me being old , but I don’t like carrying cards or a posh phone as I’ve seen to many drop out of pockets whilst riders are looking for their gels, cape etc.
Post by: Polar Bear on 27 January, 2021, 12:25:24 pm
I hate to think how long £175.84 would take me to feed into the self service checkout! I only do 1 big supermarket shop every 10 days or so.Much better than those Coinstar machines that some supermarkets have, to exchange coins for notes, which charge about 7.5%.
I prefer the self checkouts which will exchange large quantities of small change for, well, shopping.
They do take notes and give change. Nine £20 notes won't take very long at all.
It's all about personal perceptions and preferences.
Post by: Kim on 27 January, 2021, 12:29:12 pm
One implication of almost universal card use is how one handles tips. I don’t like adding a tip onto a card payment as I suspect that it won’t end up with the person I intend it for.
At the moment ( well, in normal times) I’ll pay by card but tip in cash. If cash virtually disappears that’s going to be more difficult.
You say that as if it's a bad thing. People should be paid properly.
Not that we have much of a tipping culture in the UK, thankfully.
Post by: Kim on 27 January, 2021, 12:30:43 pm
I hate to think how long £175.84 would take me to feed into the self service checkout! I only do 1 big supermarket shop every 10 days or so.Much better than those Coinstar machines that some supermarkets have, to exchange coins for notes, which charge about 7.5%.
I prefer the self checkouts which will exchange large quantities of small change for, well, shopping.
Usually the way it works is that I'd feed a couple of quid's worth of small change into the machine, and pay the remainder by card.
Post by: citoyen on 27 January, 2021, 12:34:15 pm
I don’t like adding a tip onto a card payment as I suspect that it won’t end up with the person I intend it for.
Cash tips don't necessarily go direct to the person who served you either - many restaurants operate a tronc, with all tips gathered and distributed among the staff.
(Whether a waiter will put cash tips into the tronc rather than their own pocket is a matter of conscience.)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 27 January, 2021, 12:59:05 pm
Not compared to some countries, most obviously the USA, but we do compared to others, such as IME Austria and NZ. But then the same could be said (not necessarily the same comparators) of our paying properly.One implication of almost universal card use is how one handles tips. I don’t like adding a tip onto a card payment as I suspect that it won’t end up with the person I intend it for.
At the moment ( well, in normal times) I’ll pay by card but tip in cash. If cash virtually disappears that’s going to be more difficult.
You say that as if it's a bad thing. People should be paid properly.
Not that we have much of a tipping culture in the UK, thankfully.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 27 January, 2021, 01:00:36 pm
I also use cash on the bike. I’m sure that it’s just me being old , but I don’t like carrying cards or a posh phone as I’ve seen to many drop out of pockets whilst riders are looking for their gels, cape etc.Whereas I try to use exclusively card on the bike. It fits easily in a jersey pocket, weighs virtually nothing, doesn't make holes in anything (physical), doesn't jangle.
Post by: Kim on 27 January, 2021, 01:04:07 pm
I also use cash on the bike. I’m sure that it’s just me being old , but I don’t like carrying cards or a posh phone as I’ve seen to many drop out of pockets whilst riders are looking for their gels, cape etc.Whereas I try to use exclusively card on the bike. It fits easily in a jersey pocket, weighs virtually nothing, doesn't make holes in anything (physical), doesn't jangle.
I use whatever's convenient. They both live in my wallet, which goes in my rack bag or pannier, where some sort of secure closure stops it escaping.
Post by: ian on 27 January, 2021, 01:15:30 pm
Post by: bobb on 27 January, 2021, 01:27:00 pm
*Are buskers tax dodgers? :P
Post by: Polar Bear on 27 January, 2021, 01:47:27 pm
No wallet, just the watch or phone these days. I think my wallet is in the kitchen, but I don't think I've seen it since March.
OK. So have I misunderstood the "thing" where occasionally you are required to use the physical card? I'm sure that I have read that there is in effect a verification transaction from time to time to ensure that a device used for payments is legitimate.
Post by: giropaul on 27 January, 2021, 01:51:37 pm
One implication of almost universal card use is how one handles tips. I don’t like adding a tip onto a card payment as I suspect that it won’t end up with the person I intend it for.
At the moment ( well, in normal times) I’ll pay by card but tip in cash. If cash virtually disappears that’s going to be more difficult.
You say that as if it's a bad thing. People should be paid properly.
Not that we have much of a tipping culture in the UK, thankfully.
I don’t see it as subsidising poor pay. I would avoid places where staff rely on tips. However, I do see it as a tangible way of thanking someone for, maybe, going above and beyond. In cash, at Christmas I recognise the efforts of our postie, regular parcel delivery people, the man who battles through snow and floods with our paper. I usually phrase it h“ have a drink with me”. Maybe it’s a rural thing, but I’ll regularly “ give a drink” to someone who has given good service.
Post by: ian on 27 January, 2021, 01:56:09 pm
No wallet, just the watch or phone these days. I think my wallet is in the kitchen, but I don't think I've seen it since March.
OK. So have I misunderstood the "thing" where occasionally you are required to use the physical card? I'm sure that I have read that there is in effect a verification transaction from time to time to ensure that a device used for payments is legitimate.
I don't think any of the virtual payment platforms do this, that's only for contactless card use. I've not used my physical debit card for several months (it's not even left the house), just the Apple Pay 'version.'
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 27 January, 2021, 02:25:58 pm
They also play with the long out of date cards kept in the same place, which is a sure sign of the times.
Post by: Adam on 27 January, 2021, 08:05:06 pm
I hate to think how long £175.84 would take me to feed into the self service checkout! I only do 1 big supermarket shop every 10 days or so.Much better than those Coinstar machines that some supermarkets have, to exchange coins for notes, which charge about 7.5%.
I prefer the self checkouts which will exchange large quantities of small change for, well, shopping.
They do take notes and give change. Nine £20 notes won't take very long at all.
It's all about personal perceptions and preferences.
Agreed, but in this context I was specifically referring to that amount in coins which I'd previously paid into the bank.
Post by: citoyen on 27 January, 2021, 08:34:08 pm
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 27 January, 2021, 09:04:28 pm
Nowadays ''it's cheaper on the app.''
Post by: mark on 27 January, 2021, 09:08:36 pm
I think it was 1998 when I tried to pay a bus fare with a fiver. The driver sighed, said he couldn't possibly give change cos he'd only just come on shift and simply didn't have the change, so I'd have to take a credit note. So the next day, I tried to use the credit note. This time, the driver (different driver) didn't just sigh, he turned his engine off. This was not a good beginning... It took him about ten minutes to fill in various forms, take my credit note, give me a different one for the new amount and tell me I really ought to take it to the office in the bus station.
Nowadays ''it's cheaper on the app.''
Buses around here simply do not give change, and have not for many years.I'm a little surprised that any public bus does. And yes, there is an app and I'm told that it's cheaper.
Post by: orienteer on 27 January, 2021, 10:17:23 pm
Post by: Kim on 27 January, 2021, 10:58:07 pm
London buses don't take cash. Period.
And haven't done since well before the pandemic. Makes it much quicker to board.
Post by: grams on 27 January, 2021, 11:20:29 pm
I think it was 1998 when I tried to pay a bus fare with a fiver. The driver sighed, said he couldn't possibly give change cos he'd only just come on shift and simply didn't have the change, so I'd have to take a credit note.
When I was a student in Manchester I got straight up turned away for trying to pay with a ten pound note. "Because we've had fake ones".
I was going to the cinema (remember those?) and the next bus wouldn't get me there in time. And for that and many other reasons, Manchester will always be a total (various expletives).
I sat in the bus shelter and waited a decade for apps to be invented.
Post by: citoyen on 28 January, 2021, 09:03:42 am
London buses don't take cash. Period.
And haven't done since well before the pandemic. Makes it much quicker to board.
Way behind the times. Bordeaux buses weren’t taking cash when I lived there in the early 90s (and hadn't been for many years, I think). You had to buy tickets in advance from the newsagent and stamp them in the machine on board.
I worked out that it was actually more cost effective to take the risk of being caught occasionally by the
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 28 January, 2021, 09:06:06 am
Buses in Poland (which I used to use a fair amount) and also in Slovakia etc haven't taken cash since, ooh at a guess 1945. Buy a ticket from a nearby shop used to be the system, I've no idea what it is now.*
Dwell times are the reason.
*ETA: This applies to the 'corporation' buses. Private ones, mostly in rural areas, take cash only – or did when I last used one, I expect they've gone contactless etc now.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 January, 2021, 05:04:01 pm
I wonder if buskers* and street performers are going to have to start accepting card payments as nobody is going to have any coins to hand. Also what happens to low level drug dealers? Maybe they just get their clients to PayPal them the money. I imagine those higher up the chain use Bitcoin....
*Are buskers tax dodgers? :P
I've seen buskers in London where they had a contactless terminal on a stand in front of them. I think I saw one that had several for different amounts, so you could swipe the £2 or the £5 etc...
J
Post by: Davef on 28 January, 2021, 05:38:21 pm
Big Issue sellers to accept contactless payments https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49632116I wonder if buskers* and street performers are going to have to start accepting card payments as nobody is going to have any coins to hand. Also what happens to low level drug dealers? Maybe they just get their clients to PayPal them the money. I imagine those higher up the chain use Bitcoin....
*Are buskers tax dodgers? :P
I've seen buskers in London where they had a contactless terminal on a stand in front of them. I think I saw one that had several for different amounts, so you could swipe the £2 or the £5 etc...
J
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 06 February, 2021, 05:47:30 pm
Cash is clearly not dead but there does seem to be an increasing gap between cash-only and card-only retailers, with no way of predicting where any particular place will be. In this particular case, most of their business is now Deliveroo and similar - so they're obviously open to electronic payments on a larger scale. Perhaps it's the per transaction fees that make eftpos unviable for them on an individual level?
Post by: Adam on 06 February, 2021, 09:26:21 pm
Perhaps it's the per transaction fees that make eftpos unviable for them on an individual level?
Don't think so. I know 30 years ago, when it was just the 4 big banks and there was just the Visa & Mastercard cartels, and they had similar one-off transaction fee + a percentage. However, with the rise of so many other banks, I think the majority are now just a simple percentage only charge.
I'm with SumUp which is 1.6%, and that's not too bad if the vast majority of my takings are electronic giving me a net 98.4% as it means I avoid having to queue up for 30 minutes outside the bank in the rain to pay cash in.
Post by: Polar Bear on 06 February, 2021, 09:41:13 pm
The two I paid in cash are small local traders whereas the card transaction was in a national supermarket chain.
Post by: rafletcher on 06 February, 2021, 10:50:39 pm
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 07 February, 2021, 01:04:57 pm
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 07 February, 2021, 01:22:30 pm
Last time I was in Tenerife the cafe up in the hills was cash only. The little bank round the corner had a contactless cash machine which I could use with my phone.This was a possibility for Cudzo Jnr yesterday. However, it's not any cash machine; he has to get a transaction number from the bank and then use one of their machines, which was half a mile or so in the wrong direction, ie he didn't think it worth it for a burger. (I guess he wasn't really into that burger... ) That might be a feature of the Googlepay app and/or his bank rather than a universal thing.
Post by: electronerd122 on 12 February, 2021, 10:10:59 am
I "dumped my wallet" at the start of lockdown in favour of this: https://www.cycleofgood.com/shop/gifts/wallets-and-purses/pocket-wallet/
which is good because:
It's made of old inner tubes; tough and cycley!
It's very slim and flat, good for a trouser or jersey pocket
Good cause etc
It wouldn't be any good for coins but you could keep banknotes in there.
Really nice stuff. Thanks
Post by: Polar Bear on 12 February, 2021, 10:20:09 am
I "dumped my wallet" at the start of lockdown in favour of this: https://www.cycleofgood.com/shop/gifts/wallets-and-purses/pocket-wallet/
which is good because:
It's made of old inner tubes; tough and cycley!
It's very slim and flat, good for a trouser or jersey pocket
Good cause etc
It wouldn't be any good for coins but you could keep banknotes in there.
Really nice stuff. Thanks
I missed this first time around but I have now ordered one to see if it suits for my running needs. Nice project.
Thanks.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 May, 2021, 10:32:42 am
(It's a magazine similar to the Big Issue, I'm pretty sure he's not strictly homeless, and he seems to have some terminal-sharing arrangement with the "Cuban style" takeaway on the corner.)
Post by: Davef on 17 May, 2021, 01:41:27 pm
Yesterday I bought some dope from a homeless guy and paid by contactless. The cashless economy is reaching deep, dark corners. :DSome big issue sellers have contactless.
(It's a magazine similar to the Big Issue, I'm pretty sure he's not strictly homeless, and he seems to have some terminal-sharing arrangement with the "Cuban style" takeaway on the corner.)
Post by: nuttycyclist on 17 May, 2021, 01:45:06 pm
I don't have a card machine, nor as a member of the public without a business do I have a need for one.
I think cash will last a long time.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 25 November, 2021, 08:10:09 am
Post by: Polar Bear on 25 November, 2021, 09:01:25 am
Anyway, the payment technology based upon an ipad and an electronic card reader just wouldn't work. The fallback option of pieces of thin, flexible, partly transparent sheets of plastic and mainly round metal objects of varying sizes and colours was immediately instigated in it's place.
I don't know what the fault was but it didn't affect me as I had the necessary about my person unlike the other customer in the shop at the time who was the one being served when the issue first arose.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 13 December, 2021, 08:26:41 pm
Quote
At the time, the National Crime Agency requested information about the customer and said that as this involved a lot of Scottish banknotes being deposited, “this money may have been related to the trade in controlled drugs”, court documents state. Law enforcement officers believed that the discovery of large amounts of Scottish banknotes in England was an indicator of criminal activity.https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/dec/13/natwest-fined-264m-after-admitting-breaching-anti-money-laundering-rules
On a separate note, I see that the fine was less than the amount taken in deposits, so presumably it was still worthwhile to the bank.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 13 December, 2021, 08:27:55 pm
Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
Post by: Jaded on 13 December, 2021, 08:29:53 pm
Post by: Beardy on 13 December, 2021, 08:59:47 pm
Post by: Polar Bear on 13 December, 2021, 09:26:57 pm
Every December in Rugby we have a charity cafe pop up which raises funds to help women in India. I will visit quite a few times and we traditionally have a Christmas dinner there with a group of friends.
We always pay cash.
Post by: hellymedic on 13 December, 2021, 09:58:02 pm
The underground car park in their block of flats has dodgy/absent mobile phone reception.
Card payment would have been a problem.
Post by: JellyLegs on 14 December, 2021, 05:49:22 pm
Post by: mattc on 14 December, 2021, 11:08:14 pm
Being a nosy bast*rd, I couldn't help reading it: £300. And they couldn't be bothered to select "Cash - No Receipt".
(I'm not using much cash, but I do it as often as I can - I really hate checking all my receipts against my statement ... )
Post by: grams on 15 December, 2021, 10:44:26 am
(“But I don’t have a phone” etc)
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 15 December, 2021, 10:46:02 am
But there are many who have difficulty getting a bank account - and so I don't think you can eliminate cash without further disadvantaging the already most disadvantaged part of society.
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 15 December, 2021, 10:59:22 am
I pay casual workers and local vegbox in cash. Pretty sure that never gets taxed, so they are certainly netting more than me per hour.
Post by: tatanab on 15 December, 2021, 11:14:08 am
But there are many who have difficulty getting a bank account - and so I don't think you can eliminate cash without further disadvantaging the already most disadvantaged part of society.Three examples of the use of cash.
I use a small cafe that takes cash only.
Local bakery phone line was down. Cash only.
A few years ago - a couple of hours power cut, but the local Co-op stayed open by taking cash only and noting down all purchases. It must have been a hell of a job updating stock list after that.
Post by: Efrogwr on 13 February, 2022, 12:14:27 am
Post by: Kim on 13 February, 2022, 12:33:00 am
Bangor University no longer accepts payments in cash.
Ah yes, I remember as a new student at the university now known as Kent, getting a welcome leaflet from UKC Hostility pushing their Shiny! New! campus-wide cashless purchasing system. The idea being that well-meaning parents would load their little darling's account with money at the start of term, on the assumption that it could later be used to purchase useful items such as food, toiletries or UKC branded stationery at the campus shop.
What they failed to tell you was that the campus shop was operated by the Stupid Union, and didn't accept the cashless cards. Which the now-PSOs would inevitably discover a couple of weeks into term when their supply of KitKats and 3.5" floppies ran out. While I'm sure much of the credit ended up languishing in the university's bank account, the more resourceful PSOs would then seek out the various UKC-Hostility-operated retailers at which to make use of their healthy credit balance. No prizes for guessing what sort of merchandise was primarily on offer there...
Post by: Mr Larrington on 13 February, 2022, 12:39:55 am
[“No. No, not that.” – Ed.]
Post by: quixoticgeek on 13 February, 2022, 12:42:00 am
Ah yes, I remember as a new student at the university now known as Kent, getting a welcome leaflet from UKC Hostility pushing their Shiny! New! campus-wide cashless purchasing system. The idea being that well-meaning parents would load their little darling's account with money at the start of term, on the assumption that it could later be used to purchase useful items such as food, toiletries or UKC branded stationery at the campus shop.
What they failed to tell you was that the campus shop was operated by the Stupid Union, and didn't accept the cashless cards. Which the now-PSOs would inevitably discover a couple of weeks into term when their supply of KitKats and 3.5" floppies ran out. While I'm sure much of the credit ended up languishing in the university's bank account, the more resourceful PSOs would then seek out the various UKC-Hostility-operated retailers at which to make use of their healthy credit balance. No prizes for guessing what sort of merchandise was primarily on offer there...
One of my friends at uni had this happen to him. His mum put about 1000 quid on the card in 2001 numbers. He was no pleased.
J
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 13 February, 2022, 09:54:15 am
Post by: Polar Bear on 13 February, 2022, 01:22:42 pm
What struck me as interesting though was the number of oldies flashing plastic where the younger drinkers seemed happiest with cash. The staff seemed to have no preference either way.
Post by: Mr Larrington on 13 February, 2022, 02:51:53 pm
Post by: Kim on 13 February, 2022, 02:53:09 pm
Ah yes, I remember as a new student at the university now known as Kent, getting a welcome leaflet from UKC Hostility pushing their Shiny! New! campus-wide cashless purchasing system. The idea being that well-meaning parents would load their little darling's account with money at the start of term, on the assumption that it could later be used to purchase useful items such as food, toiletries or UKC branded stationery at the campus shop.
What they failed to tell you was that the campus shop was operated by the Stupid Union, and didn't accept the cashless cards. Which the now-PSOs would inevitably discover a couple of weeks into term when their supply of KitKats and 3.5" floppies ran out. While I'm sure much of the credit ended up languishing in the university's bank account, the more resourceful PSOs would then seek out the various UKC-Hostility-operated retailers at which to make use of their healthy credit balance. No prizes for guessing what sort of merchandise was primarily on offer there...
One of my friends at uni had this happen to him. His mum put about 1000 quid on the card in 2001 numbers. He was no pleased.
That's a lot of Mungo's curly fries and [weak lemon drink]...
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 March, 2022, 03:16:23 pm
Quote
Some boys are taught by their fathers how to skim stones or bowl cricket balls. Mine taught me a far more important life skill: how to politely summon the bill in a restaurant from a distance. A hand raised. An eye caught across the dining room. The flourish of an invisible pen, writing a cheque in the air. Job done.https://www.theguardian.com/food/2022/mar/17/air-scribbling-cheques-will-soon-be-a-thing-of-the-past-like-fish-knives-and-melba-toast-jay-rayner
Or at least it was once an important skill. Recently, I raised my hand and scribbled in the air at the delightful twentysomething who had been serving us. And I realised what a ludicrous gesture this now was. Sure, they understood, but God knows how. It’s likely they’ve never written a cheque. We have not yet come up with an internationally recognised gesture for putting your pin number into a card reader, or holding your phone against it. But the cheque-scribbling thing is definitely out of date. This makes me sad. I loved doing the whole invisible cheque-writing thing. It felt suave.
Post by: ian on 17 March, 2022, 03:28:26 pm
Though for reasons, even Microsoft fucked that up in Office, by creating an entirely redundant 'file' page. Who needs an option on the toolbar and a dialogue box when you can have an entire cluttered page to navigate.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 March, 2022, 03:46:22 pm
Post by: Mr Larrington on 17 March, 2022, 06:33:06 pm
The floppy disk icon is still the default for save.
Though for reasons, even Microsoft fucked that up in Office, by creating an entirely redundant 'file' page. Who needs an option on the toolbar and a dialogue box when you can have an entire cluttered page to navigate.
And thus were born keyboard shortcuts. Or something ;D
Post by: Pickled Onion on 17 March, 2022, 07:58:23 pm
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 March, 2022, 08:05:21 pm
Post by: Polar Bear on 17 March, 2022, 08:12:34 pm
Post by: ian on 17 March, 2022, 08:39:40 pm
At the rate I'm spending cash, that £90 would last me till 2154.
Post by: orienteer on 17 March, 2022, 08:56:52 pm
Post by: PaulF on 18 March, 2022, 05:32:19 am
Post by: Syd on 18 March, 2022, 06:15:21 am
Been 100% card payment since.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 18 March, 2022, 10:08:55 am
The floppy disk icon is still the default for save.
Though for reasons, even Microsoft fucked that up in Office, by creating an entirely redundant 'file' page. Who needs an option on the toolbar and a dialogue box when you can have an entire cluttered page to navigate.
"Look mum! a 3d printed save icon!" says the child pointing at a floppy disk.
J
Post by: Mr Larrington on 18 March, 2022, 11:49:57 am
I’ve had the same two notes in my wallet since March 2020.
Been 100% card payment since.
I've had the same four since September 2019 but they’re USAnian dollars so they don’t count ;D
Post by: Polar Bear on 18 March, 2022, 01:28:00 pm
Two grocery transactions today: both paid with cash. I am just about back to pre pandemic cash use now. So much better imo.
Another two cash transaction day. So happy to be able to use cash freely once again.
Post by: Jaded on 18 March, 2022, 01:29:55 pm
Post by: Polar Bear on 18 March, 2022, 04:41:37 pm
Am I becoming a luddite? **
** OK, so luddites were not really anti technology, just concerned for their employment and survival but using the commonly abused meaning of the term ...
Post by: ElyDave on 18 March, 2022, 05:01:00 pm
Post by: rafletcher on 18 March, 2022, 05:13:55 pm
the only cash I've used recently was a car parking machine 3 x £1 coins and a couple of taxis. Even the veg man on the market with holes in his jumpers, muddy overalls and dirt under his nails accepts cards these days. I don't think it's dead but it's definitely diminished.
Our local car parks haven’t taken cash for at least 2 years, it’s contactless or (spit) Ringo.
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 19 March, 2022, 07:13:35 am
Our local car parks haven’t taken cash for at least 2 years, it’s contactless or (spit) Ringo.Why are car parking payment apps so universally shite?
I've had to use Ringo and two others that I can't remember the names of, and they're totally carp. And some councils charge you for having to use the stupid app as well.
Post by: Polar Bear on 19 March, 2022, 12:09:52 pm
Post by: Syd on 19 March, 2022, 06:05:36 pm
https://time.com/4918626/money-germs-microbes-dirty/
Post by: Polar Bear on 19 March, 2022, 07:31:45 pm
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 05 April, 2022, 12:37:18 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/apr/05/high-tech-higher-tax-ghanaians-face-punishing-new-levy-on-electronic-payments
Post by: Adam on 05 April, 2022, 09:09:26 pm
I’ll just leave this here.
https://time.com/4918626/money-germs-microbes-dirty/
How well do microbes & germs live on plastic notes?
Post by: Syd on 05 April, 2022, 10:45:26 pm
Three times cleaner apparently.I’ll just leave this here.
https://time.com/4918626/money-germs-microbes-dirty/
How well do microbes & germs live on plastic notes?
https://www.lovemoney.com/news/61417/dirty-money-cleaner-polymer-notes-new-fiver
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 18 April, 2022, 05:44:05 pm
Quote
Then there’s inclusion. True, cash is insecure; cash holders miss out on interest and are unable to build up financial histories, which are essential for getting access to a wider array of financial services. That’s why “financial inclusion” usually means bringing people out of a cash-based existence and into the formal sector. But cash alone offers a universally attainable means of paying and being paid. For those who can’t or won’t get banked or go digital, what happens in a cashless future? There are an estimated 1.3 million “unbanked” adults in the UK and many more who lack either digital confidence or access. Not everyone is happy or able to wave a card, much less to buy now and pay later. Cash may be dirty, expensive and unsafe. It may aid and abet the criminal and the corrupt, but it’s also freely accessible to everyone.https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/apr/18/the-big-idea-should-we-embrace-a-cashless-society
The irony here is that cashless payments, in the form of mobile money – that's mobile as in mobile phone – were developed to make paying and being paid easier for the huge numbers of people in eg Africa and India who don't have bank accounts – and won't have in the foreseeable future due to poverty, lack of access to physical bank buildings and poor internet infrastructure in rural areas, illiteracy and absence of other forms of ID. Mobile payments allow the unbanked poor to make and receive payments without the security risk of carrying cash and without needing shiny things, education and bureaucracy. it's not cashless payments per se which exclude the unbanked but their implementation in the West – which is largely down to the dominance and power of banks.
Post by: ian on 19 April, 2022, 12:11:38 pm
We finally had to pay cash at the weekend, typical grumpy pub landlord uttered 'it's not worth it' for two lime and sodas (£2) but generally, he seemed of the mind that customers were an unnecessary burden on his business (still £2 for about 10p worth of ingredients and thirty seconds of his time, I expect he makes less selling two pints of beer).
Post by: De Sisti on 19 April, 2022, 04:19:24 pm
near the till for tips to be placed (only cash though). Same thing happens in the UK in some pubs and cafes.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 July, 2022, 01:37:50 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/jul/02/tim-dowling-im-at-a-cashless-festival-why-does-it-feel-like-a-dystopian-future
Post by: Kim on 02 July, 2022, 02:06:37 pm
Holding a cashless festival where you also can't buy anything with your card or phone or even by bank transfer – how does this work? Instead, you put money on a wristband, which of course is worthless elsewhere. Hmm...
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/jul/02/tim-dowling-im-at-a-cashless-festival-why-does-it-feel-like-a-dystopian-future
UKC Hostility were doing this in the late 90s. The real trick was letting the middle-class students' parents assume that they'd be able to use the cashless system to buy food and bogroll and stationery from the campus shop (which was run by the Stupid Union and not part of the system), rather than just drinkohol and chips from the college bars.
Post by: Polar Bear on 02 July, 2022, 02:13:11 pm
Seems to me that cash is alive and well but also that there is a small section of society that support the dystopian control freak future that a cashless society helps usher in.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 July, 2022, 02:21:02 pm
The best bit of this story was when the author of the article, a performer at the festival, discovers the Artists' Lounge – of course only after he's managed to charge up his wristband.Holding a cashless festival where you also can't buy anything with your card or phone or even by bank transfer – how does this work? Instead, you put money on a wristband, which of course is worthless elsewhere. Hmm...
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/jul/02/tim-dowling-im-at-a-cashless-festival-why-does-it-feel-like-a-dystopian-future
UKC Hostility were doing this in the late 90s. The real trick was letting the middle-class students' parents assume that they'd be able to use the cashless system to buy food and bogroll and stationery from the campus shop (which was run by the Stupid Union and not part of the system), rather than just drinkohol and chips from the college bars.
Post by: lissotriton on 02 July, 2022, 02:24:38 pm
Though you may end up wasting money if you have tokens left over. Just have to drink lots on the last night...
Post by: Kim on 02 July, 2022, 02:40:57 pm
Seems to me that cash is alive and well but also that there is a small section of society that support the dystopian control freak future that a cashless society helps usher in.
I think it's more the case that some businesses see an easy profit in people converting currency to arbitrary credit and pocketing the difference when it doesn't get spent. Which is hardly a new phenomenon. Book tokens, gift vouchers etc have been around longer than I've been alive. Using electronics to store the tokens (or the money used to purchase them) doesn't really change any of that. (The new expiring postage stamps now qualify, too.)
Meanwhile, a few people - like barakta - find not handling cash to be a major accessibility win. They're probably cancelled out by the people who have problems accessing the technology, or who need tangible money to keep track of what they're spending. As ever - the important thing is to have alternative options.
And the vast majority of people simply don't care, other than when they find they don't have a suitable payment method.
Apropos of the cashless dystopia, I was able to set up Google Pay on my phone and pay successfully when I found myself wallet-less with a full basket of shopping the other week. Not something I'd want to use as a routine method of payment, simply because I don't want to rely on my phone, but nevertheless a handy backup option.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 July, 2022, 02:53:11 pm
Post by: Kim on 02 July, 2022, 03:15:56 pm
I wonder if there's also an element of 'setting up a proprietary system because we can and the marketing dept says it makes us cool (and the finance dept likes the locked-in element)'. I'm thinking of all the tales I read of charging electric cars...
The electric car charger case is simply a matter of what's cheapest to implement. A proprietary smart card reader is cheap as chips, and an app doesn't even require that. Taking debit/credit card payments means you need a proper card payment wossname in the charger (and there are probably bank fees or something associated with it) which - combined with early cars needing relatively small amounts of (then inexpensive) electricity - is why they didn't bother at first. Early EV drivers were mostly concerned about getting a charge, and were prepared to tolerate a lot of faffing about if it make the deployment of chargers easier.
Hire bikes (and indeed electro-scooters) are in much the same position, except unlike the EV chargers, they need to be able to take money from you if you don't return the vehicle, so contactless payment on its own seems unlikely.
(I think I've got about 4 quid of credit sitting in a Pod Point account since the summer of 2018. Maybe at some point I'll find myself driving something that can make use of it...)
Parallels with the early days of PAYG mobile phones, when your options were to a) phone a robot (or possibly in the really early days, a human?) and give them your credit card details or b) pay for a voucher in a shop. The latter was a faff, but it was the only option to people who didn't have a credit card - particularly minors. Websites and apps have given those of use with bank accounts more convenient options, but it's conspicuous that you can't simply wave your card at a phone and have it take contactless payment for some credit. (As the telcos are trying to move away from the PAYG model because reasons, I don't see this ever happening.)
And yes, there's certainly a marketing departments liking apps effect. I can pay for bus travel in the Wet Midlands using an app - something that launched about 5 minutes before they started accepting contactless payment. To date, the only time I've used it was to claim free bus travel as part of some promotion or other. There are good reasons for bus companies wanting to use something other than cash (it means less dwell time for the bus), and obviously you need an option for people who don't have bank accounts, but I'm not sure what the app gives you that the whatever-the-local-bus-card-thing-is-called doesn't.
Post by: Polar Bear on 02 July, 2022, 03:17:31 pm
With regard to Google Pay: I tried to set it up recently but my bank is not subscribed. I also have Garmin Pay available on my watch but again, my bank is not subscribed. It seems to me that by having many competing systems to pay instead of simple cash that complexity is making access even more restricted to the privileged who "have".
Post by: Kim on 02 July, 2022, 03:22:43 pm
With regard to Google Pay: I tried to set it up recently but my bank is not subscribed. I also have Garmin Pay available on my watch but again, my bank is not subscribed.
I know very little about it, having hastily set up and used it once while wearing the wrong glasses in a busy Tescos. I didn't realise the bank had to do something special, rather than make credit/debit card payments to Google as it would when paying for something in the app store.
I think this is one of those irregular verbs: I establish a standard. You practice vendor lock-in. They are creating a monopoly.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 July, 2022, 03:24:26 pm
And yes, there's certainly a marketing departments liking apps effect. I can pay for bus travel in the Wet Midlands using an app - something that launched about 5 minutes before they started accepting contactless payment. To date, the only time I've used it was to claim free bus travel as part of some promotion or other. There are good reasons for bus companies wanting to use something other than cash (it means less dwell time for the bus), and obviously you need an option for people who don't have bank accounts, but I'm not sure what the app gives you that the whatever-the-local-bus-card-thing-is-called doesn't.The First Bus app in Brizzle (presumably also in other First Bus places but I can't be sure of that) does give slightly cheaper fares than paying on the bus. I don't know how much cheaper cos I eschew buses.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 July, 2022, 03:27:36 pm
It seems to me that Kim is describing the utopian position of having many and varied ways to pay and having freedom of choice to do so according to the needs or even preferences each of us my have.Pretty sure all the major banks are in Google Pay – perhaps if you're with eg Triodos or the Coop it might not work – but it does also require fingerprint and/or face ID to be used.
With regard to Google Pay: I tried to set it up recently but my bank is not subscribed. I also have Garmin Pay available on my watch but again, my bank is not subscribed. It seems to me that by having many competing systems to pay instead of simple cash that complexity is making access even more restricted to the privileged who "have".
Post by: nicknack on 02 July, 2022, 03:37:37 pm
Pretty sure all the major banks are in Google Pay – perhaps if you're with eg Triodos or the Coop it might not work – but it does also require fingerprint and/or face ID to be used.Co-op's fine. I use it quite a lot. Don't need fingerprint or face ID. You just need to have means of locking your phone. I use a pass number.
Post by: lissotriton on 02 July, 2022, 03:47:15 pm
Pretty sure all the major banks are in Google Pay – perhaps if you're with eg Triodos or the Coop it might not work – but it does also require fingerprint and/or face ID to be used.Barclays are probably the only major bank who refuse to support Google Pay. Instead they force you to use their own crappy app.
Triodos don't support Google Pay (or Apple Pay). They say they want to, but as a smaller bank it will take them longer to develop it etc.
Other option is something like Curve card, which you can link to any other bank cards, and does support Google Pay and Garmin Pay.
Post by: SteveC on 02 July, 2022, 04:23:24 pm
...but I'm not sure what the app gives you that the whatever-the-local-bus-card-thing-is-called doesn't.Not having to carry multiple cards around.
Post by: Mr Larrington on 02 July, 2022, 05:21:29 pm
Post by: ian on 02 July, 2022, 08:00:25 pm
They have changed them into some kind of weird plastic thing. I knew it had happened to £10s but no one told me about £20s.
He took them anyway. It's also gone up to £50 for a trip to Gatwick.
Post by: Syd on 02 July, 2022, 09:05:49 pm
Apart from that all I have is my house key.
Cannot recall the last time I used cash, or even had any on me, so retailers so are ‘cash only’ lose my business.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 July, 2022, 10:03:53 pm
When I go running I have a Garmin watch on one wrist, set up for Garmin Pay, and an Apple Watch, set up for Apple Pay, on the other as backup.But where's the backup to your backup?
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=87521.msg2733346#msg2733346
:D
Post by: Lightning Phil on 02 July, 2022, 10:05:38 pm
I did pay my airport taxi with cash (mostly because I remembered that my account there is an old corporate card from an employer I no longer work for). You know we don't use them now he says, regarding my handful of proffered £20s.
They have changed them into some kind of weird plastic thing. I knew it had happened to £10s but no one told me about £20s.
He took them anyway. It's also gone up to £50 for a trip to Gatwick.
If you find any more, you can pay them into your bank account at the post office.
Post by: ian on 02 July, 2022, 11:00:59 pm
Post by: Mr Larrington on 02 July, 2022, 11:22:51 pm
When I go running I have a Garmin watch on one wrist, set up for Garmin Pay, and an Apple Watch, set up for Apple Pay, on the other as backup.
Yebbut, what time is it?
;D
Post by: fd3 on 03 July, 2022, 01:03:57 am
Post by: tatanab on 03 July, 2022, 07:15:08 am
Post by: Polar Bear on 03 July, 2022, 07:39:49 am
When I go running I have a Garmin watch on one wrist, set up for Garmin Pay, and an Apple Watch, set up for Apple Pay, on the other as backup.
Apart from that all I have is my house key.
Cannot recall the last time I used cash, or even had any on me, so retailers so are ‘cash only’ lose my business.
Crikey. And people used to think that bank charges were exhorbitant! Close to a grand of tech on your wrists to avoid carrying a banknote.
In your risk analysis, what happens when you find no signal, the reader in the shop is playing up, or even a power cut?
It's horses for courses of course. I would choose not to patronise a place that was exclusively contactless.
Post by: Syd on 03 July, 2022, 08:00:18 am
Telephone connectivity built into Apple Watch and a wife able to respondWhen I go running I have a Garmin watch on one wrist, set up for Garmin Pay, and an Apple Watch, set up for Apple Pay, on the other as backup.But where's the backup to your backup?
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=87521.msg2733346#msg2733346
:D
Post by: ian on 04 July, 2022, 09:46:54 am
When I go running I have a Garmin watch on one wrist, set up for Garmin Pay, and an Apple Watch, set up for Apple Pay, on the other as backup.
Apart from that all I have is my house key.
Cannot recall the last time I used cash, or even had any on me, so retailers so are ‘cash only’ lose my business.
Crikey. And people used to think that bank charges were exhorbitant! Close to a grand of tech on your wrists to avoid carrying a banknote.
In your risk analysis, what happens when you find no signal, the reader in the shop is playing up, or even a power cut?
It's horses for courses of course. I would choose not to patronise a place that was exclusively contactless.
What happens if you lose your cash, etc? I don't think the only use for a smartwatch is payment, they do other things. I've heard a rumour that they even tell the time.
It's not a battle, of course, cashless offers a convenient payment mechanism, I rarely carry a wallet which is liberating, I could wear a nice dress, and be pocketless like a lady. Huzzah. That doesn't mean cash should disappear, we still need it for paying off blackmailers and those late-night transactions in the pub toilets.
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 04 July, 2022, 09:53:08 am
Oh, and paying for weekly veg box.
Since both are from neighbour-over-the-hill I could start paying him online I guess.
Post by: JennyB on 04 July, 2022, 10:24:26 am
It's not a battle, of course, cashless offers a convenient payment mechanism, I rarely carry a wallet which is liberating, I could wear a nice dress, and be pocketless like a lady. Huzzah. That doesn't mean cash should disappear, we still need it for paying off blackmailers and those late-night transactions in the pub toilets.
Isn't that what bitcoin is for?
Post by: Syd on 08 July, 2022, 07:59:53 pm
Over £2k depending on which Garmin I wear. I wear way more than that in value with some of my mechanical wristwatches.When I go running I have a Garmin watch on one wrist, set up for Garmin Pay, and an Apple Watch, set up for Apple Pay, on the other as backup.
Apart from that all I have is my house key.
Cannot recall the last time I used cash, or even had any on me, so retailers so are ‘cash only’ lose my business.
Crikey. And people used to think that bank charges were exhorbitant! Close to a grand of tech on your wrists to avoid carrying a banknote.
In your risk analysis, what happens when you find no signal, the reader in the shop is playing up, or even a power cut?
It's horses for courses of course. I would choose not to patronise a place that was exclusively contactless.
I’ve been caught out in the past with shops that would not take cash. Not yet been caught out contactless. My local buses take contactless payment so have got a way home if necessary.
Post by: Syd on 08 July, 2022, 08:02:39 pm
My main use for cash is buying eggs from roadside eggboxes.Roadside egg boxes I’ve used lately have a choice of cash box or PayPal. They give their details on a notice so you can send them money.
Oh, and paying for weekly veg box.
Since both are from neighbour-over-the-hill I could start paying him online I guess.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 08 July, 2022, 09:03:49 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 09 July, 2022, 11:35:26 am
I'm reading a history of King John. It mentions that in 11th and 12th century England there was only one denomination of coin in circulation, the silver penny. It even gives a rough estimate of the total number of silvery pennies in existence at the time. And mentions that historians calculate that one silver penny in around 1200 was worth the equivalent of approximately £20 now. But there was, apparently, no smaller coinage. A time before cash for most people in daily life?
Yes. but if you look at the coins, you'll notice that there was a cross on one side. This is nothing about religion, but rather so you could cut the coin to make halves and forths.
Because the penny was worth 1 penny of silver, if you needed a quarter pennyth of silver you just cut the coin up.
There was also a system of taxation whereby every x years you had to take your coins to the local mint to be remade, whereby you'd give them 100 old coins, and they gave you back 90 new coins.
Useless trivia, if you have £1 of new pennnies now, they weigh. One pound. It's not the same as the pound we use for tomatoes, but rather the tower pound, as used for a pound sterling for centuries. So in theory £1 of pennies now, should weigh the same as £1 of silver pennies from 800 years ago. Also 100 1p coins weighs the same as 50 2p coins...
This is why our currency is sterling. £1 was literally 1 pound of sterling silver.
J
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 09 July, 2022, 01:37:01 pm
Post by: CommuteTooFar on 09 July, 2022, 04:03:23 pm
Post by: Pickled Onion on 09 July, 2022, 05:42:34 pm
Post by: Polar Bear on 09 July, 2022, 07:21:17 pm
A very good small local cafe has asked customers who can pay using coins to please do as they struggle for change in a world of contactless and cashpoint offerings. Apparently their bank is quite expensive for drawing coins. As they use an iPad and a card reader all transactions are recorded so I don't see any issues with the usual bleating about tax evasion.
I am more than happy to buy my chai latte and cookie or cake with a pocketful of loose change. 👍
Post by: Syd on 09 July, 2022, 07:27:25 pm
You still need a pound coin (or at least something the size and shape of a pound coin) to get a trolley at Sainsos.Not used a shopping trolley in years. Home delivery with it paid online beforehand.
On the rare occasion I need anything extra it’s a short walk to the local supermarket and the use of a basket for a few items.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 09 July, 2022, 08:35:36 pm
Post by: Pickled Onion on 09 July, 2022, 10:05:03 pm
You still need a pound coin (or at least something the size and shape of a pound coin) to get a trolley at Sainsos.Not used a shopping trolley in years. Home delivery with it paid online beforehand.
I don't currently have a postcode so home delivery is not an option. A trolley is easier with panniers in it than a basket. I used to have a plastic Euro from Carrefour that would also operate Sterling trollies, but sadly lost.
But as per the thread title, it won't be the end of cash until trolleys accept contactless.
Post by: Mr Larrington on 09 July, 2022, 10:53:27 pm
Post by: Syd on 10 July, 2022, 10:53:12 am
It’s partly that way now with those keychain tokens some people already use.
Post by: Kim on 10 July, 2022, 09:03:50 pm
(My usual approach to supermarkets is to bung the panniers in a half-height trolley and then fill the remaining space with shopping, which is about the same volume.)
Post by: ian on 10 July, 2022, 10:23:54 pm
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 11 July, 2022, 07:46:15 am
Post by: ian on 11 July, 2022, 09:44:54 am
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 11 July, 2022, 10:43:53 am
Post by: De Sisti on 11 July, 2022, 01:59:55 pm
You still need a pound coin (or at least something the size and shape of a pound coin) to get a trolley at Sainsos.Or the round end of a front door key. I haven't tried it, but a fellow shopper (whilst doing a weekly shop at Aldi) told me.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 22 July, 2022, 02:15:01 pm
Quote
AIB has said it has “decided not to proceed” with the proposed changes to its bank services that would have seen a further 70 branches no longer process cash.https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/2022/07/22/aib-reverses-plan-to-make-70-banks-cashless-following-public-unease/
In a statement this morning, the bank confirmed the U-turn in its policy.
The move was welcomed by Minister for Finance Paschal Donohoe.
“Banks have a key role in maintaining the flow of cash through the economy and ensuring appropriate access to retail banking services for all in society, including the vulnerable,” he said. “I note the significant public reaction to AIB’s announcement earlier this week, and I welcome the bank’s decision not to proceed with the proposed changes to customer services in certain branches.
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 22 July, 2022, 02:40:56 pm
Right. Easier, sure, after you've executed the dance of 'who has any change for a 20?':
"I owe you £11.50, right? do you have change, I only have 20s?"
"Ah, you only have a fiver?, ok, I'll give you 20, you give me a fiver and you owe me £3.50 next time we meet and you have change."
Or you could just say "Paypal or bank transfer? Ok, I'll send you £11.50. There, done."
Post by: Polar Bear on 22 July, 2022, 04:50:40 pm
A number of us regulars now take our jingling pockets of change when visiting. Only this afternoon I was third in line with loose change for which they were very appreciative.
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 22 July, 2022, 05:42:38 pm
My favourite local cafe are striving at the minute because folk want to buy their £2.95 chai latte with £20 notes. The cost of change at the bank is, in their words, criminal.They don't use contactless?
A number of us regulars now take our jingling pockets of change when visiting. Only this afternoon I was third in line with loose change for which they were very appreciative.
A SumUp terminal is cheap and easy to use.
If they want one, I think MrsC has a referral code that will get them a discount.
Post by: Polar Bear on 22 July, 2022, 06:11:50 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 08 August, 2022, 03:38:53 pm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62437819
Apparently as everyone is skint people are moving to doing more with cash.
I can understand that. When I was poor I used to take a single £10 or if lucky, £20 note to the supermarket with me so I didn't over spend.
It can be a double edged sword tho. Take £20 out the cash machine, spend only £13.12 of it, the rest can seem to just disappear into pockets, or a change jar, until such point as you raid said pot.
or if you have the ~£6 left over, but need to spend £8, you end up either getting another tenner out, or having to use card, and then still have the cash in your pocket.
J
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 09 August, 2022, 09:17:22 am
Quote
It is the highest amount since records began five years ago, and only the second time that personal cash withdrawals have exceeded £800m.What they don't tell us is the number of different individuals withdrawing cash, or the number of separate withdrawals. The total amount is bound to rise as prices rise, even without more people preferring cash over cards. Although 20% increase is higher than inflation. But it does seem to be only referring to PO counters not banks' ATMs?
Post by: Kim on 09 August, 2022, 11:42:16 am
I was wondering if there's a demographic skew of post office counter users. Post office accounts always used to be for old people and as a way for those who can't get a real bank account (and likely perform most of their transactions in cash by default) to access welfare benefits etc. But as banks close branches, the post office has taken up the slack for dealing with cash and cheques.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 09 August, 2022, 12:00:21 pm
Post by: Pickled Onion on 09 August, 2022, 09:14:07 pm
I was speaking to a civil servant last week who claimed that the Mint has been printing record amounts of banknotes, and most of them have been disappearing from circulation. People stuffing them under mattresses in fear of impending doom?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 10 August, 2022, 08:54:09 am
I was speaking to a civil servant last week who claimed that the Mint has been printing record amounts of banknotes, and most of them have been disappearing from circulation. People stuffing them under mattresses in fear of impending doom?Presumably inflation affects the black market too!
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 28 September, 2022, 11:55:26 am
Post by: Canardly on 28 September, 2022, 11:58:17 am
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 28 September, 2022, 12:02:42 pm
But when I did a bookchazzer shift a few weeks ago, I did notice more people paying by cash – it's normally about one third of transactions – and it's a long time since anyone paid by watch! That used to be the old people's preference, pre-pandemic. I read it as being "Look at me! I might be old but I'm right up with the latest tech!"
Post by: Polar Bear on 28 September, 2022, 12:47:23 pm
I see more people using cash because of budgeting. They're still doing their weekly grocery shop with plastic but increasingly using cash for cafes and the like because it's easier to know when your disposable is gone.
A friend of ours who runs a small cafe has been struggling with the cost of coin change from the bank to keep up so a number of us regulars have taken to paying in coin to help her out.
Post by: Polar Bear on 08 December, 2022, 10:01:31 am
I was able to buy my ticket ... :smug:
Post by: De Sisti on 08 December, 2022, 10:10:33 am
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 09 December, 2022, 11:12:28 am
Electronic payments apparently down across the rail network.Signals were down on the Falmouth line yesterday* but I saw several people buy tickets electronically between Plymouth and Bristol, both morning and evening.
I was able to buy my ticket ... :smug:
*The signals on that line are semaphore, but they were down in the sense of broken – and therefore also down in the sense of stop (GWR so upper quadrant).
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 13 April, 2023, 05:49:36 pm
Post by: road-runner on 13 April, 2023, 09:15:37 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 13 April, 2023, 09:25:42 pm
I am finding more and more shops in Slovakia will no longer accept 1 or 2 cent coins (hundredths of euros) at all and will round the till total price up to the next 5 cents. Pay by card and you pay exactly the till price without any rounding.
This is the case in the Netherlands, and has been for years. What's most annoying is that a lot of places don't even let you use 5 1c coins instead of a 5c coin. As such I have a jar of 1c and 2c coins on the shelf I can't do anything with, and j same even pay them into the bank cos they charge for cash deposits...
J
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 13 April, 2023, 09:58:27 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 13 April, 2023, 10:17:26 pm
Benefit of Brexit. We can still use our 1p coins because of sovereignty.
And how many thousands of them are needed to buy a tomato? :P
J
Post by: cygnet on 13 April, 2023, 10:47:49 pm
Aside: 10p coins seem to have been in shortage for several years, if you pay cash at an automated till much more likely to get 2x5p coins.
The traditional big supermarket cos have been moving to the 20/100 pricing system for a while for all payment mechanisms, but they have to compete with Aldi and Lidl on some items which means they can't stick to it. And results in more pennies in your change if you are using cash.
I have found the self checkouts (UK) allow a combination of payment mechanisms, so am slowly working though small coins topped up by a card payment where necessary - they still currently accept brass coin.
Post by: Kim on 13 April, 2023, 10:50:56 pm
I have found the self checkouts (UK) allow a combination of payment mechanisms, so am slowly working though small coins topped up by a card payment where necessary - they still currently accept brass coin.
This was my preferred way of dealing with small change, back when we (well, mostly barakta, because hand impairment) accumulated small change. Fill a trouser pocket with the stuff and wander round the corner
Post by: quixoticgeek on 14 April, 2023, 12:05:01 am
I have found the self checkouts (UK) allow a combination of payment mechanisms, so am slowly working though small coins topped up by a card payment where necessary - they still currently accept brass coin.
This was my preferred way of dealing with small change, back when we (well, mostly barakta, because hand impairment) accumulated small change. Fill a trouser pocket with the stuff and wander round the cornershaking it out down your trouser legto feed it to the self-humiliation checkout in exchange for milk.
Alas the Dutch are scared of cash. Thus self checkout is always card only, as are most of the human operated checkouts. To underline just how scared of cash they are, if you goto a festival here noone will take cash. You'll have to goto a machine and change your legal tender into plastic tokens that are only accepted at the event, and for which there is no means to change them back into something useful.
When I ask why, Dutch people claim cash is too difficult for people to use. It's exasperating.
J
Post by: Mr Larrington on 14 April, 2023, 01:12:09 am
Post by: quixoticgeek on 14 April, 2023, 07:41:02 am
Though Miss von Brandenburg's spiffy plugs-into-an-iPhone card reader doesn’t work in Abroad so anyone trying to buy a book, CD, T-shaped shirt ect on the current leg of the tour will have to pay cash or get nowt.
This feels like something that should have been checked before leaving the plague isle?
J
Post by: Mr Larrington on 14 April, 2023, 09:12:54 am
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 14 April, 2023, 09:29:21 am
Post by: Feanor on 14 April, 2023, 09:35:46 am
Though Miss von Brandenburg's spiffy plugs-into-an-iPhone card reader doesn’t work in Abroad so anyone trying to buy a book, CD, T-shaped shirt ect on the current leg of the tour will have to pay cash or get nowt.
Presumable the payment app on the phone is using IP Geolocation to ring-fence it to working in the UK only, or somesuch.
Perhaps using a VPN on the phone back to the UK might help?
But probably not, since its on a phone which will offer a location service which is more reliable than IP geolocation.
Post by: Kim on 14 April, 2023, 01:39:29 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 14 April, 2023, 01:45:15 pm
Or it won't work with FOREIGN cards, which seems particularly likely in .nl
Maestro and V-pay being almost ubiquitous here.
J
Post by: Mr Larrington on 14 April, 2023, 02:32:00 pm
Post by: Auntie Helen on 14 April, 2023, 06:02:37 pm
Miss von Brandenburg reported selling shedloads of Stuffs in .de so Them Germans are clearly not that cash averse.They are very keen on cash. Some cafes will only take cash, our farm shop only accepts cards for purchases of 20€ up.
People actually have bank branches to go to to get cash out.
Bank transfers take days though, even between your own accounts at a single institution.
Post by: Kim on 14 April, 2023, 06:05:21 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 14 April, 2023, 06:15:40 pm
Miss von Brandenburg reported selling shedloads of Stuffs in .de so Them Germans are clearly not that cash averse.They are very keen on cash. Some cafes will only take cash, our farm shop only accepts cards for purchases of 20€ up.
People actually have bank branches to go to to get cash out.
Bank transfers take days though, even between your own accounts at a single institution.
I carry €50, mostly as an In Case Of Germany.
Yes, I thought it was credit cards that Germans were supposed to be averse to...
Are they not one and the same ?
It's the Dutch who don't do credit cards.
J
Post by: ian on 14 April, 2023, 09:16:29 pm
The tokens at festivals things is something I've read about here too. It doesn't mean they won't take cash, it means they won't take money – you have to make this up-front investment and lose whatever you don't use, just a means of sanctioning a rip off AFAICS.
It's common at beer festivals, where you have to buy a bit of paper marked out for 'tokens' which they cross out for each drink.
Post by: Jaded on 14 April, 2023, 10:27:04 pm
The tokens at festivals things is something I've read about here too. It doesn't mean they won't take cash, it means they won't take money – you have to make this up-front investment and lose whatever you don't use, just a means of sanctioning a rip off AFAICS.
It's common at beer festivals, where you have to buy a bit of paper marked out for 'tokens' which they cross out for each drink.
Cash is only a short to medium term solution for token swapping.
In the old days it was all bartering.
Then coins and shit.
Now, electronica.
Trouble is electronica can get followed around. Which is, I guess, why good old thrash metal is better.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 14 April, 2023, 11:11:30 pm
Cash is only a short to medium term solution for token swapping.
In the old days it was all bartering.
Then coins and shit.
Now, electronica.
Not true. Barter relies on the double coincidence of wants. It's all well and good me trying to barter beaver skins for a meal from you, but if you don't want beaver skins, the trade isn't going to happen. In a local community what would happen instead is that you give me a meal, and I owe you one, so maybe 6 months later in the autumn you come to me for a nice fur to make a hat for the winter. Debt repayed.
In the beginning there was debt. Then barter where the double coincidence of wants allows. Then coinage as a way of moving value and debt. Then just promises. Take out a tenner from your wallet. Look at it? What's it worth?
The answer is either ten pounds. Or nothing. If you look closely it says "promise to pay the bearer to the sum of ten pounds" signed chief cashier of the bank of England. It's worth ten pounds because we all accept that it's worth ten pounds, but more crucially, because you can pay the your taxes with it. The UK government can never default on a debt denominated in pounds as it can always print more of them, because they have both no actual value, and the value we decide to give them. Modern money is basically a shared delusion. Bit coin, and other cryptocurrency even more so. That's just a massive multiplayer proof of greater fool theory.
To preempt some replies like: Right, QG you're talking bollocks again give us some citations! Start with "debt, the first 5000 years" by David Graeber. Then move on to "The deficit myth" by Stephanie Kelton.
Quote
Trouble is electronica can get followed around. Which is, I guess, why good old thrash metal is better.
A cashless society, is a surveillance society.
J
Post by: cygnet on 14 April, 2023, 11:23:11 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 14 April, 2023, 11:26:52 pm
Doesn't need to be cash-less for them to surveil you. E.g. tescos are following the lead of US markets with direct price discounts for "tracking" card holders. Expect the others to follow suit soon.
Your club card has been about surveillance of your buying habits since the last millennium.
J
Post by: Jaded on 14 April, 2023, 11:28:01 pm
Cash is only a short to medium term solution for token swapping.
In the old days it was all bartering.
Then coins and shit.
Now, electronica.
Not true. Barter relies on the double coincidence of wants. It's all well and good me trying to barter beaver skins for a meal from you, but if you don't want beaver skins, the trade isn't going to happen. In a local community what would happen instead is that you give me a meal, and I owe you one, so maybe 6 months later in the autumn you come to me for a nice fur to make a hat for the winter. Debt repayed.
In the beginning there was debt. Then barter where the double coincidence of wants allows. Then coinage as a way of moving value and debt. Then just promises. Take out a tenner from your wallet. Look at it? What's it worth?
The answer is either ten pounds. Or nothing. If you look closely it says "promise to pay the bearer to the sum of ten pounds" signed chief cashier of the bank of England. It's worth ten pounds because we all accept that it's worth ten pounds, but more crucially, because you can pay the your taxes with it. The UK government can never default on a debt denominated in pounds as it can always print more of them, because they have both no actual value, and the value we decide to give them. Modern money is basically a shared delusion. Bit coin, and other cryptocurrency even more so. That's just a massive multiplayer proof of greater fool theory.
To preempt some replies like: Right, QG you're talking bollocks again give us some citations! Start with "debt, the first 5000 years" by David Graeber. Then move on to "The deficit myth" by Stephanie Kelton.Quote
Trouble is electronica can get followed around. Which is, I guess, why good old thrash metal is better.
A cashless society, is a surveillance society.
J
Yeah but no but yeah but no but yeah.
Post by: cygnet on 14 April, 2023, 11:33:38 pm
Doesn't need to be cash-less for them to surveil you. E.g. tescos are following the lead of US markets with direct price discounts for "tracking" card holders. Expect the others to follow suit soon.
Your club card has been about surveillance of your buying habits since the last millennium.
J
I don't have one. The price discounts for card holders advertised directly on the shelves are new here.
Post by: Kim on 14 April, 2023, 11:36:52 pm
The price discounts advertised for card holders directly on the shelves are new here.
Yes, those piss me off.
Post by: Mr Larrington on 15 April, 2023, 09:21:08 am
Doesn't need to be cash-less for them to surveil you. E.g. tescos are following the lead of US markets with direct price discounts for "tracking" card holders. Expect the others to follow suit soon.
Noticed a label quoting price and “Nectar price” in Mr Sainsbury’s House of Toothy Comestibles yesterday.
Post by: readingjohn on 15 April, 2023, 10:10:22 am
The tokens at festivals things is something I've read about here too. It doesn't mean they won't take cash, it means they won't take money – you have to make this up-front investment and lose whatever you don't use, just a means of sanctioning a rip off AFAICS.Don't know about other festivals, but at CAMRA beer festivals where they use this system, you can get a refund for unused tokens, or donate the value to charity - so not a rip-off. The major advantage is a single place where cash is handled, rather than at every bar location, which greatly simplifies security.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 15 April, 2023, 10:35:45 am
Yeah but no but yeah but no but yeah.
Please to be elaborating.
J
Post by: grams on 15 April, 2023, 11:19:38 am
https://twitter.com/mattleys/status/1638247147383451654
Post by: andrewc on 26 April, 2023, 07:12:48 pm
https://www.retailgazette.co.uk/blog/2023/04/co-op-member-prices/
Moan. I always try to use the manned tills rather than self service, but it seems to be the case that the staff avoid serving people. They are all busy filling carrier backs to be collected by chaps on bikes & scooters. >:(
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 27 April, 2023, 12:00:55 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 27 April, 2023, 12:15:22 pm
The trouble with these member prices, clubcard prices, nectar prices, etc, is you end up with a wallet full of half a dozen cards in order to avoid paying the rip-off standard price. Tesco clubcard being the worst, because it also has rfid and stops your bank card working in "press whole wallet to the card reader" mode.
Have a couple of RFID shield things in my wallet. They are basically the form factor if a (thin) bank card. And I have one either side of a wodge if cards. And they shield them all. So just my OV chipkaart is readable when I apply whole wallet to the scanner.
J
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 28 April, 2023, 08:07:48 am
The trouble with these member prices, clubcard prices, nectar prices, etc, is you end up with a wallet full of half a dozen cards in order to avoid paying the rip-off standard price. Tesco clubcard being the worst, because it also has rfid and stops your bank card working in "press whole wallet to the card reader" mode.I've got the small key fob type cards with just a bard code on them.
Just the right size to lose.
Post by: lissotriton on 28 April, 2023, 08:18:33 am
Post by: Polar Bear on 28 April, 2023, 08:35:38 am
I mostly pay with cash because the card simply registers me on that particular occasion as being a member and thus enjoying discounts and a small but accumulating cashback, and I prefer cash.
Coop also makes donations to local "good causes" which is nice.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 28 April, 2023, 08:55:30 am
Post by: Mr Larrington on 28 April, 2023, 10:42:19 am
The trouble with these member prices, clubcard prices, nectar prices, etc, is you end up with a wallet full of half a dozen cards in order to avoid paying the rip-off standard price. Tesco clubcard being the worst, because it also has rfid and stops your bank card working in "press whole wallet to the card reader" mode.I've got the small key fob type cards with just a bard code on them.
Just the right size to lose.
(https://images3.teeshirtpalace.com/images/productImages/wst8944675-william-shakespeare-t-shirt-funny-beer-t-shirt-poetry-bard-t-shirt01--black-post-garment.jpg?width=500)
?
(http://legslarry.org.uk/BikeStull/coat_48.png)
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 April, 2023, 11:12:42 am
The reason I took those supermkt cards out of my wallet is cos I don't like carrying a fat, heavy, wallet, which is uncomfy in a pocket, etc. So putting them back in with RFID shield things would be even fatter, etc. The little key ring things are the same, but worse, cos they don't even lie flat in a pocket (until they break or get lost). I could put them on my phone, and then it makes sense to pay by phone too – but then that requires turning phone on, finding correct wallet app, activating it for payment card, activating it again for loyalty card, ect, ect. #fwp
Likewise. My wallet is a National Rail Railcard holder. It's the most low profile wallet I could find. Even more so than the thousands of compact wallets that clutter up Kickstarter.
For the loyalty cards. I use the key ring things, but keep them in my wallet. Two side by side is the same as one full size card...
J
Post by: bhoot on 28 April, 2023, 11:17:22 am
Likewise. My wallet is a National Rail Railcard holder. It's the most low profile wallet I could find. Even more so than the thousands of compact wallets that clutter up Kickstarter.
For the loyalty cards. I use the key ring things, but keep them in my wallet. Two side by side is the same as one full size card...
J
Pleased to hear I am not the only person with a National Rail wallet! Have acquired a large stock from ticket and bike reservation purchases so can replace when they fall apart.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 April, 2023, 11:31:10 am
Pleased to hear I am not the only person with a National Rail wallet! Have acquired a large stock from ticket and bike reservation purchases so can replace when they fall apart.
I have 3 in stock. I need to get the next visitor from the UK to bring me a couple more...
J
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 28 April, 2023, 11:43:42 am
The 'pocket wallet' is ultra slim, the 'slimline with zip' is still slim and also holds coins.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 April, 2023, 11:48:00 am
I got rid of mine. They don't last long before tearing anyway. I use one of these: https://www.cycleofgood.com/product-category/gifts/wallets-and-purses/
The 'pocket wallet' is ultra slim, the 'slimline with zip' is still slim and also holds coins.
I get about a year or so out of mine before as you say they tear.
Even the slimline you linked too looks huge.
J
Post by: Jaded on 28 April, 2023, 12:00:04 pm
Post by: Kim on 28 April, 2023, 12:12:27 pm
I got rid of mine. They don't last long before tearing anyway. I use one of these: https://www.cycleofgood.com/product-category/gifts/wallets-and-purses/
The 'pocket wallet' is ultra slim, the 'slimline with zip' is still slim and also holds coins.
As a low-down dirty darksider, I opted for one of these: https://www.radicaldesign.com/ronker-wallet (Which has now gone up to €BloodyHellHowMuch, I see)
It's clever at being thin, while not being too minimal, though mildly fiddly for coins. Crucially, in the absence of zips and velcro, I expect it'll last at least as long as a set of bananananna bags. (Though I got nearly 20 years[1] out of my last one, which was an unremarkable distress purchase from some fashion place while hanging around Victoria station.)
[1] Approximately 10 of which were spent with coins leaking through a hole into the cards compartment.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 28 April, 2023, 12:26:38 pm
As for size, they're all limited by card dimension, obviously – and then by how much you put in them, particularly coins.
Post by: Kim on 28 April, 2023, 12:40:18 pm
Post by: Jurek on 28 April, 2023, 12:47:29 pm
I used to use these all the time.
Pleased to hear I am not the only person with a National Rail wallet! Have acquired a large stock from ticket and bike reservation purchases so can replace when they fall apart.
I have 3 in stock. I need to get the next visitor from the UK to bring me a couple more...
J
These days I use a stainless note clip, and all my cards (there are only 3) and
I can't think of a way of making it more minimalist than that.
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 28 April, 2023, 01:01:07 pm
Some shops are finding transaction charges too high, reverting back to the 'cash only below £5' that we used to see years ago.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 28 April, 2023, 01:19:20 pm
Post by: Basil on 28 April, 2023, 01:23:55 pm
The lotto, btw, is for the park upkeep, which the council abandoned years ago. So, as many here do, we do it every week and consider it the local park tax.
Post by: Tim Hall on 28 April, 2023, 11:30:23 pm
One of theI used to use these all the time.
Pleased to hear I am not the only person with a National Rail wallet! Have acquired a large stock from ticket and bike reservation purchases so can replace when they fall apart.
I have 3 in stock. I need to get the next visitor from the UK to bring me a couple more...
J
These days I use a stainless note clip, and all my cards (there are only 3) andpaperplastic money live between a pair of sacrificial cards (the clip tends to trash cards).
I can't think of a way of making it more minimalist than that.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 April, 2023, 11:40:03 pm
One of thecake decoratingmachining channels I watch, Inheritance Engineering, featured a minimalist walket. A credit card sized pocket machined out of a piece of brass, nice geometric pattern engraved on the other side, stainless steel clip to hold cards and some folded notes.
I watch the same channel. It was an interesting design.
J
Post by: Jurek on 01 May, 2023, 11:52:11 am
I winced and made a small noise when I saw him break that tap.One of theI used to use these all the time.
Pleased to hear I am not the only person with a National Rail wallet! Have acquired a large stock from ticket and bike reservation purchases so can replace when they fall apart.
I have 3 in stock. I need to get the next visitor from the UK to bring me a couple more...
J
These days I use a stainless note clip, and all my cards (there are only 3) andpaperplastic money live between a pair of sacrificial cards (the clip tends to trash cards).
I can't think of a way of making it more minimalist than that.cake decoratingmachining channels I watch, Inheritance Engineering, featured a minimalist walket. A credit card sized pocket machined out of a piece of brass, nice geometric pattern engraved on the other side, stainless steel clip to hold cards and some folded notes.
As he said - 'Good save'.
Post by: SteveC on 01 May, 2023, 01:49:41 pm
However, I have now been drastically overcharged for a round of drinks in a crowded pub. I'm sure it was accidental in both cases, but the first time I didn't notice until far too late (being 250 miles away). The second time I did notice and the landlord was very apologetic, to the extent that he refunded the entire amount and would not let me pay for the round at all.
I think I shall revert to carrying cash for such occasions.
Post by: Tim Hall on 01 May, 2023, 07:29:34 pm
I've been largely cashless since lockdown.As a result of reading these stories I'm making more of an effort to check the amount before blithely tapping.
However, I have now been drastically overcharged for a round of drinks in a crowded pub. I'm sure it was accidental in both cases, but the first time I didn't notice until far too late (being 250 miles away). The second time I did notice and the landlord was very apologetic, to the extent that he refunded the entire amount and would not let me pay for the round at all.
I think I shall revert to carrying cash for such occasions.
Meanwhile, the other day I offered the Nice Lady who cut my hair the choice of cash or card. She opted for cash, which also gave me the option of tipping her.
Today I drew out some
Post by: andyoxon on 01 May, 2023, 09:57:04 pm
I've been largely cashless since lockdown.
However, I have now been drastically overcharged for a round of drinks in a crowded pub. I'm sure it was accidental in both cases, but the first time I didn't notice until far too late (being 250 miles away). The second time I did notice and the landlord was very apologetic, to the extent that he refunded the entire amount and would not let me pay for the round at all.
I think I shall revert to carrying cash for such occasions.
I'm a bit uneasy with the payments when you don't get to see the amount you're paying displayed & they don't offer a receipt. I normally try & get a receipt.
Post by: Paul H on 01 May, 2023, 10:11:44 pm
I'm a bit uneasy with the payments when you don't get to see the amount you're paying displayed & they don't offer a receipt. I normally try & get a receipt.Advantage of using a phone rather than a card is the instant notification.
Post by: Paul H on 01 May, 2023, 10:16:12 pm
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 May, 2023, 08:18:29 am
Good point. But I've noticed that in general people are much better than they used to be at holding the card reader so that you can see the amount.I'm a bit uneasy with the payments when you don't get to see the amount you're paying displayed & they don't offer a receipt. I normally try & get a receipt.Advantage of using a phone rather than a card is the instant notification.
Post by: Polar Bear on 02 May, 2023, 08:53:04 am
I keep asking how much. They point to a tiny display. I state that I am registered blind and cannot read the display. Generally they then tell me albeit sometimes with a tone of reluctance or indifference but sometimes they ignore my request and I have to repeat it. Sometimes I have to repeat it more than once ...
Post by: Polar Bear on 02 May, 2023, 05:52:26 pm
Post by: rafletcher on 05 May, 2023, 05:20:07 pm
Post by: andrewc on 11 May, 2023, 10:25:28 am
Post by: Jurek on 11 May, 2023, 10:29:26 am
Post by: quixoticgeek on 11 May, 2023, 10:39:04 am
You have a cheque book? :o
A what?
J
Post by: Jurek on 11 May, 2023, 10:45:34 am
What on earth is a digital watch?You have a cheque book? :o
A what?
J
Being of a certain age is a requirement for this one
Post by: andrewc on 11 May, 2023, 10:46:01 am
Post by: PeteB99 on 15 May, 2023, 11:50:26 am
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-isle-of-man-65569855 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-isle-of-man-65569855)
Post by: Adam on 15 May, 2023, 08:52:12 pm
I've been largely cashless since lockdown.
However, I have now been drastically overcharged for a round of drinks in a crowded pub. I'm sure it was accidental in both cases, but the first time I didn't notice until far too late (being 250 miles away). The second time I did notice and the landlord was very apologetic, to the extent that he refunded the entire amount and would not let me pay for the round at all.
I think I shall revert to carrying cash for such occasions.
I'm a bit uneasy with the payments when you don't get to see the amount you're paying displayed & they don't offer a receipt. I normally try & get a receipt.
In my shop, unless someone's used their phone or watch to pay (in which case they have instant confirmation), I always ask if they want a receipt, on the basis that if they say no (which is usually the case), then I haven't wasted paper & money.
Post by: Mr Larrington on 15 May, 2023, 11:22:16 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 21 May, 2023, 10:07:17 am
You used to be able to tell the self-checkout tills in my branch of Mr Sainsbury’s House of Toothy Comestibles not to bother with a receipt but now you can’t because you have to scan the barcode before the gates will let you out. Don’t normally use them but I realised just as I was paying for the rest of my toothy comestibles that I'd forgotten to buy Brown Drink.
The tills at the supermarket I use here do the same, except if you have scanned your bonus card, you get the option to choose that instead of the receipt, and can scan that to get out. It also offers short receipt, which is basically just the barcode to exit. They also have a bin next to the gate on the outside so you can dump your paperwork once you have escaped...
J
Post by: Mr Larrington on 21 May, 2023, 12:17:15 pm
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 August, 2023, 12:07:11 pm
Quote
Another one of the protesters said they fear financial transactions are heading in a way where they will soon be done by microchip implants.https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/protesters-gather-to-campaign-against-cashless-society/
“There will be nowhere you can go where you’re not tracked and traced,” they warned.
“If they don’t like your opinions, you could be cut off from all your resources, pushed out from all access.
“In America, they are chipping dogs and cats in preparation almost,” they added.
Post by: Kim on 17 August, 2023, 01:35:51 pm
It's just scared people with little physics education who've never tried to get a reliable RFID read from something at more than 20cm, lead by grifters.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 17 August, 2023, 01:39:00 pm
Sometimes I wonder if this sort of moonhowling conspiraloonery is deliberately encouraged to remove credibility from perfectly reasonable privacy arguments. But that would in itself be conspiraloonery.
It's just scared people with little physics education who've never tried to get a reliable RFID read from something at more than 20cm, lead by grifters.
Agreed.
But the basic principle is true. A cashless society is a surveillance society. Tho microchipping isn't necessary. We can track where you are by following the probes of your phone and tracking the Mac address...
J
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 August, 2023, 01:46:46 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 17 August, 2023, 01:56:40 pm
"Um, ma'am, why are you holding your cat up to the card terminal? "
"I'm trying to pay with mastercat"
J
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 August, 2023, 01:57:39 pm
:facepalm: :hand: ::-) :D
"Um, ma'am, why are you holding your cat up to the card terminal? "
"I'm trying to pay with mastercat"
J
Post by: robgul on 17 August, 2023, 02:21:57 pm
Have to say if it had been my car I would have left a note in the windscreen saying that the card payment option wasn't working and I didn't have the use of a smartphone . . and argue the toss later should it be necessary.
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 17 August, 2023, 03:32:06 pm
POTD!
"Um, ma'am, why are you holding your cat up to the card terminal? "
"I'm trying to pay with mastercat"
J
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 17 August, 2023, 03:32:41 pm
. . and pay & display parking - yesterday we had a load of aggro trying to pay for parking where the machine didn't take cash, the credit card option was out of order - leaving just a couple of apps as options. BUT like my chauffeuse, if you didn't have either of the apps you had to download it and then try and use it . . downloading failed 2 or 3 times and then timed out, back to square one and eventually success - 3 other members of the group had similar experiences.
Have to say if it had been my car I would have left a note in the windscreen saying that the card payment option wasn't working and I didn't have the use of a smartphone . . and argue the toss later should it be necessary.
How does that work, legal-wise?
Don't companies have to accept legal tender for a service?
Post by: Mr Larrington on 17 August, 2023, 03:36:12 pm
Post by: Polar Bear on 17 August, 2023, 03:37:56 pm
. . and pay & display parking - yesterday we had a load of aggro trying to pay for parking where the machine didn't take cash, the credit card option was out of order - leaving just a couple of apps as options. BUT like my chauffeuse, if you didn't have either of the apps you had to download it and then try and use it . . downloading failed 2 or 3 times and then timed out, back to square one and eventually success - 3 other members of the group had similar experiences.
Have to say if it had been my car I would have left a note in the windscreen saying that the card payment option wasn't working and I didn't have the use of a smartphone . . and argue the toss later should it be necessary.
How does that work, legal-wise?
Don't companies have to accept legal tender for a service?
Legally, if you cannot pay you should not park.
It is not the law that any business or service has to accept legal tender otherwise those businesses that no longer accept cash would have big issues. Too many organisations are trying to rid us of cash not least the twats who run the banking system.
Post by: rafletcher on 17 August, 2023, 03:45:15 pm
Sometimes I wonder if this sort of moonhowling conspiraloonery is deliberately encouraged to remove credibility from perfectly reasonable privacy arguments. But that would in itself be conspiraloonery.
It's just scared people with little physics education who've never tried to get a reliable RFID read from something at more than 20cm, lead by grifters.
Agreed.
But the basic principle is true. A cashless society is a surveillance society. Tho microchipping isn't necessary. We can track where you are by following the probes of your phone and tracking the Mac address...
J
Or, as is already done in China, by using facial recognition. I saw something a while back where those using the incorrect communal recycling bin were targeted that way, and punished.
Post by: Wombat on 17 August, 2023, 06:37:58 pm
But Shirley, its not that you can't pay, its that they fail to take the money. You have a valid means of payment, a credit/debit card, and that function isn't working. Surely their problem, not the customers?. . and pay & display parking - yesterday we had a load of aggro trying to pay for parking where the machine didn't take cash, the credit card option was out of order - leaving just a couple of apps as options. BUT like my chauffeuse, if you didn't have either of the apps you had to download it and then try and use it . . downloading failed 2 or 3 times and then timed out, back to square one and eventually success - 3 other members of the group had similar experiences.
Have to say if it had been my car I would have left a note in the windscreen saying that the card payment option wasn't working and I didn't have the use of a smartphone . . and argue the toss later should it be necessary.
How does that work, legal-wise?
Don't companies have to accept legal tender for a service?
Legally, if you cannot pay you should not park.
It is not the law that any business or service has to accept legal tender otherwise those businesses that no longer accept cash would have big issues. Too many organisations are trying to rid us of cash not least the twats who run the banking system.
Post by: Pickled Onion on 17 August, 2023, 09:44:13 pm
But Shirley, its not that you can't pay, its that they fail to take the money. You have a valid means of payment, a credit/debit card, and that function isn't working. Surely their problem, not the customers?. . and pay & display parking - yesterday we had a load of aggro trying to pay for parking where the machine didn't take cash, the credit card option was out of order - leaving just a couple of apps as options. BUT like my chauffeuse, if you didn't have either of the apps you had to download it and then try and use it . . downloading failed 2 or 3 times and then timed out, back to square one and eventually success - 3 other members of the group had similar experiences.
Have to say if it had been my car I would have left a note in the windscreen saying that the card payment option wasn't working and I didn't have the use of a smartphone . . and argue the toss later should it be necessary.
How does that work, legal-wise?
Don't companies have to accept legal tender for a service?
Legally, if you cannot pay you should not park.
It is not the law that any business or service has to accept legal tender otherwise those businesses that no longer accept cash would have big issues. Too many organisations are trying to rid us of cash not least the twats who run the banking system.
No, Polar Bear is right. A seller is not forced to sell something if you offer a means of payment they can't or don't want to accept. The idea of legal tender only applies to debt, not a contract for sale.
After all, if you went into a shop and they said their credit card machine was out of order, that wouldn't entitle you to walk out with some goods? Parking is no different, if they can't accept the payment they lose the sale, but you can't just take the service, however annoying that might be.
Post by: Polar Bear on 17 August, 2023, 09:59:41 pm
But Shirley, its not that you can't pay, its that they fail to take the money. You have a valid means of payment, a credit/debit card, and that function isn't working. Surely their problem, not the customers?. . and pay & display parking - yesterday we had a load of aggro trying to pay for parking where the machine didn't take cash, the credit card option was out of order - leaving just a couple of apps as options. BUT like my chauffeuse, if you didn't have either of the apps you had to download it and then try and use it . . downloading failed 2 or 3 times and then timed out, back to square one and eventually success - 3 other members of the group had similar experiences.
Have to say if it had been my car I would have left a note in the windscreen saying that the card payment option wasn't working and I didn't have the use of a smartphone . . and argue the toss later should it be necessary.
How does that work, legal-wise?
Don't companies have to accept legal tender for a service?
Legally, if you cannot pay you should not park.
It is not the law that any business or service has to accept legal tender otherwise those businesses that no longer accept cash would have big issues. Too many organisations are trying to rid us of cash not least the twats who run the banking system.
Well it is in fact that you cannot pay because they are incapable of accepting your proffered payment method(s). And if you are unable to pay you are not entitled to avail yourself of said goods or services.
Post by: robgul on 18 August, 2023, 07:46:42 am
But Shirley, its not that you can't pay, its that they fail to take the money. You have a valid means of payment, a credit/debit card, and that function isn't working. Surely their problem, not the customers?. . and pay & display parking - yesterday we had a load of aggro trying to pay for parking where the machine didn't take cash, the credit card option was out of order - leaving just a couple of apps as options. BUT like my chauffeuse, if you didn't have either of the apps you had to download it and then try and use it . . downloading failed 2 or 3 times and then timed out, back to square one and eventually success - 3 other members of the group had similar experiences.
Have to say if it had been my car I would have left a note in the windscreen saying that the card payment option wasn't working and I didn't have the use of a smartphone . . and argue the toss later should it be necessary.
How does that work, legal-wise?
Don't companies have to accept legal tender for a service?
Legally, if you cannot pay you should not park.
It is not the law that any business or service has to accept legal tender otherwise those businesses that no longer accept cash would have big issues. Too many organisations are trying to rid us of cash not least the twats who run the banking system.
Well it is in fact that you cannot pay because they are incapable of accepting your proffered payment method(s). And if you are unable to pay you are not entitled to avail yourself of said goods or services.
Having read all the responses above I do agree that it's "sort of theft" - BUT a test of reasonableness (and the offer to pay later which would have been on my windscreed note) would seem fair?
. . . a touch of irony in that about 300metres into our ride there was a quiet road where we all could have parked quite legally, safely and responsibly all day without payment.
Post by: Polar Bear on 18 August, 2023, 09:06:34 am
A friend often regales me with his tale of rocking up at Crask Inn for food and a bed but they didn't have a card machine. The then owner simply gave him a bill and asked him to send the money on later. I trust my friend would have done so but equally I expect many would have not for many innocent reasons, but also because some people are less honest.
I also know an otherwise upstanding chap who happily used to not pay to ride the local train and bemoaned the introduction of automatic ticket barriers. His argument is that if they are too mean or lazy to employ sufficient staff to take ticket money and check tickets they deserve to not receive any ticket money. Naturally I disagree with his position.
Post by: citoyen on 18 August, 2023, 12:45:42 pm
Well it is in fact that you cannot pay because they are incapable of accepting your proffered payment method(s). And if you are unable to pay you are not entitled to avail yourself of said goods or services.
That depends on who is offering the goods/operating the service - if it's a private business that's one thing, but if it's, say, a local council run car park, it's questionable whether they can legally refuse to handle any particular form of payment.
However, if the machine is broken and not accepting cash, you are required to pay by another means or be liable to a fine. Although you would probably have a reasonable case for appeal if you refused to pay on the grounds of legitimately relying on being able to pay by cash.
That said, for our local council car parks which now all have ANPR camera-operated barriers, you can't exit without having paid.
I wonder how many councils have knowingly left payment machines broken as a way of avoiding having to handle cash.
Post by: Polar Bear on 18 August, 2023, 01:14:30 pm
Post by: rafletcher on 18 August, 2023, 01:55:57 pm
Post by: citoyen on 18 August, 2023, 02:16:02 pm
Questionable on what basis?
The people most likely to be affected by not being able to pay with cash may have a case under the equality act (due to protected characteristics) and the PSED in particular.
Post by: barakta on 18 August, 2023, 02:20:43 pm
And then you have to work out how to fund the litigation, fees of £30-100k wouldn't be unlikely with huge costs risks as there's no Qualified One Way Costs Shifting (QOCS) for Equality Act claims (a friend lost her case to Judicial Review this in 2020, cos government "hasn't decided yet"). Friend may relitigate this but has to find spoons and jump the legal aid hoops.
The PSED is barely worth the paper it's printed on.
Post by: citoyen on 18 August, 2023, 02:45:32 pm
Yeah but you'd have to enforce the Equality Act which is hard.
Indeed, as you have already noted elsewhere, so yes, I agree the questionableness of refusing cash is largely hypothetical.
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 18 August, 2023, 03:07:15 pm
Quote
A new policy will state that free cash withdrawals and deposits must be available within one mile for people living in urban areas.
In rural areas, where there are concerns over "cash deserts", the maximum distance is three miles.
Where did they pull those figures, out of their arses?
The nearest shop to me is well over 3 miles away. I'm not exactly in a remote rural location.
What an utterly useless policy.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 18 August, 2023, 03:12:14 pm
Post by: Kim on 18 August, 2023, 03:15:32 pm
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 18 August, 2023, 03:20:51 pm
Post by: Polar Bear on 18 August, 2023, 03:40:29 pm
That does seem to imply a network of cash machines on a 3 mile grid covering the entire country, which is clearly bonkers.
Probably more like 6 miles. It only has to be 3 miles in any direction.
Post by: Polar Bear on 18 August, 2023, 03:43:06 pm
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 18 August, 2023, 03:43:27 pm
So one every 10km. This is what the national grid was made for!That does seem to imply a network of cash machines on a 3 mile grid covering the entire country, which is clearly bonkers.
Probably more like 6 miles. It only has to be 3 miles in any direction.
Post by: Polar Bear on 18 August, 2023, 03:45:33 pm
So one every 10km. This is what the national grid was made for!That does seem to imply a network of cash machines on a 3 mile grid covering the entire country, which is clearly bonkers.
Probably more like 6 miles. It only has to be 3 miles in any direction.
I think that an equilateral triangle grid of 6 mile sides would work best.
We need a new app: What Three Cashpoints ...
Post by: lissotriton on 18 August, 2023, 04:05:43 pm
It shows over 95% of the population within 1 mile / 3 miles of cash withdrawals/deposits. Though that includes post offices or mobile banks, which may only be open for a couple of hours each week.
Post by: citoyen on 18 August, 2023, 04:31:36 pm
What an utterly useless policy.
From the current government? Surely not!
Post by: Jaded on 18 August, 2023, 04:53:54 pm
So one every 10km. This is what the national grid was made for!That does seem to imply a network of cash machines on a 3 mile grid covering the entire country, which is clearly bonkers.
Probably more like 6 miles. It only has to be 3 miles in any direction.
I think that an equilateral triangle grid of 6 mile sides would work best.
We need a new app: What Three Cashpoints ...
I'm already securing Venture Capital for it...
Post by: Polar Bear on 18 August, 2023, 05:42:50 pm
Mind's a modest bottle of Mortlach flora and fauna 16 year old single malt if you succeed. 🥃
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 07 December, 2023, 11:53:19 am
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67636571
Quote
Cash was used in 19% of transactions last year, according to retailers, up from 15% the previous year. Until 2015, notes and coins were used in more than half of transactions and, while card use now dominated, cash still had its benefits.
And also:
Quote
Ministers say banks will be fined if money cannot be withdrawn or deposited.I note "will", so it's almost certainly just another empty pronouncement, but supposing such a rule were brought in, how would it be enforced? In the middle of a large city, I have no bank branches within a mile, but there are plenty of ATMs in supermarkets, POs and similar. Out in the burbs you might be a mile from the nearest shop, so how does that work? I suppose if it's suburban, it's not technically urban. ::-)
Under government rules, free withdrawals and deposits will need to be available within one mile for people living in urban areas.
In rural areas, where there are concerns over "cash deserts", the maximum distance is three miles.
Post by: Wombat on 07 December, 2023, 12:48:54 pm
Most people would probably consider the nearest shop being "well over 3 miles away" a rural location.
My nearest of any sort is 7.5 miles away, but if I actually want to buy anything other than butchery (or visit a choice of 3 pubs!), its 12 miles away, and they're a bit iffy. For "big shops/supermarkets", I have to travel to another country!
Post by: Asterix, the former Gaul. on 08 December, 2023, 08:00:15 am
Most people would probably consider the nearest shop being "well over 3 miles away" a rural location.
My nearest of any sort is 7.5 miles away, but if I actually want to buy anything other than butchery (or visit a choice of 3 pubs!), its 12 miles away, and they're a bit iffy. For "big shops/supermarkets", I have to travel to another country!
I hope your passport is up to date.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 08 December, 2023, 01:25:17 pm
I remember someone in Poland telling how, as a small child in the 1980s, she had grown up in a village next to the border with what was then Czechoslovakia. At this time all sorts of things that were impossible to find in Poland were easily available in Czechoslovakia. You could cross the border without a visa, but you had to apply for a passport on each occasion and there was always the likelihood of a baggage search. Unless you were a small girl on a little bike with tassels on the handlebars, who the guards knew just popped across the border every other day with a shopping list from her mum.Most people would probably consider the nearest shop being "well over 3 miles away" a rural location.
My nearest of any sort is 7.5 miles away, but if I actually want to buy anything other than butchery (or visit a choice of 3 pubs!), its 12 miles away, and they're a bit iffy. For "big shops/supermarkets", I have to travel to another country!
I hope your passport is up to date.
Post by: Morat on 11 December, 2023, 02:37:29 pm
One of the anti cash arguments is stopping muggings. This of course supposes that people, especially older, weaker and more frail types wouldn't be mugged for their cards, phones or perhaps smartwarches.
In that situation I'd hand over my cards as the money would be refunded. I guess handing over watches/phones would be far less popular as they cost so much themselves, but you'd need the owner to unlock them before you could use them to pay for things so I'd imagine it's a riskier deal for the thief/mugger than stolen cash.
Post by: ScumOfTheRoad on 11 December, 2023, 02:43:57 pm
I guess there must be a way to unlock an wipe the phones and a market for them.
Post by: Kim on 11 December, 2023, 02:44:23 pm
One of the anti cash arguments is stopping muggings. This of course supposes that people, especially older, weaker and more frail types wouldn't be mugged for their cards, phones or perhaps smartwarches.
In that situation I'd hand over my cards as the money would be refunded. I guess handing over watches/phones would be far less popular as they cost so much themselves, but you'd need the owner to unlock them before you could use them to pay for things so I'd imagine it's a riskier deal for the thief/mugger than stolen cash.
Traditionally it's teenagers who get mugged for their phones (which is why it's a nonsense that phones make them safer on the way home from school).
Still, the Usual Suspects have made a decent effort to cryptographically reduce the value of a stolen phone in recent years. Moreso the Mega-Global Fruit Corporation, on account of their ongoing war on repairability meaning that a locked-out iThing isn't even much use as a source of spare parts.
Post by: Morat on 11 December, 2023, 03:04:29 pm
Moreso the Mega-Global Fruit Corporation, on account of their ongoing war on repairability meaning that a locked-out iThing isn't even much use as a source of spare parts.
yeah, just second hand glue from what I can see in the EweToobs
Post by: quixoticgeek on 11 December, 2023, 04:21:52 pm
See also vin locking...
J
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 11 December, 2023, 04:26:56 pm
je prefere le vin rouge.
See also vin locking...
J
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 11 December, 2023, 04:28:21 pm
A lot of phones are unlocked by face.One of the anti cash arguments is stopping muggings. This of course supposes that people, especially older, weaker and more frail types wouldn't be mugged for their cards, phones or perhaps smartwarches.
In that situation I'd hand over my cards as the money would be refunded. I guess handing over watches/phones would be far less popular as they cost so much themselves, but you'd need the owner to unlock them before you could use them to pay for things so I'd imagine it's a riskier deal for the thief/mugger than stolen cash.
Traditionally it's teenagers who get mugged for their phones (which is why it's a nonsense that phones make them safer on the way home from school).
Still, the Usual Suspects have made a decent effort to cryptographically reduce the value of a stolen phone in recent years. Moreso the Mega-Global Fruit Corporation, on account of their ongoing war on repairability meaning that a locked-out iThing isn't even much use as a source of spare parts.
Mug person, grab phone. Hold up to their face <phone unlocks>. Change unlock pin.
Post by: grams on 11 December, 2023, 06:56:14 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 11 December, 2023, 09:53:02 pm
A lot of phones are unlocked by face.
Mug person, grab phone. Hold up to their face <phone unlocks>. Change unlock pin.
One of the many reasons that I recommend not using face recognition or finger print for securing a phone.
Also in many jurisdictions police need a court order to get you to give up a password.
They don't need that to unlock it with face or finger print.
J
Post by: Polar Bear on 12 December, 2023, 08:20:34 am
Post by: JonBuoy on 12 December, 2023, 08:30:19 am
I cannot recall the precise details just now but there was a case perhaps last year? Where people were having their phones stolen from gym lockers. Somehow those phones were being used to make financial transactions.
Possibly this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62809151
Unlocking not required.
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 12 December, 2023, 08:49:20 am
I cannot recall the precise details just now but there was a case perhaps last year? Where people were having their phones stolen from gym lockers. Somehow those phones were being used to make financial transactions.This was discussed before.
Change your phone settings so that SMS contents are not shown when the screen is locked.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 December, 2023, 08:53:43 am
Post by: lissotriton on 12 December, 2023, 09:15:05 am
Though they could just steal your SIM, and put it in another phone. So make sure you have set a SIM PIN.
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 12 December, 2023, 09:28:34 am
Or switch the phone off, before putting it in your locker.Finally, a justification for e-sims!
Though they could just steal your SIM, and put it in another phone. So make sure you have set a SIM PIN.
Post by: lissotriton on 12 December, 2023, 09:38:41 am
Use an authenticator app if you can.
Post by: ian on 12 December, 2023, 09:04:41 pm
I cannot recall the precise details just now but there was a case perhaps last year? Where people were having their phones stolen from gym lockers. Somehow those phones were being used to make financial transactions.This was discussed before.
Change your phone settings so that SMS contents are not shown when the screen is locked.
Default on an iPhone, it just tells you have got a message. Been that way for as long as I remember, which may be as far back as last week.
Post by: cygnet on 13 December, 2023, 10:29:35 pm
Doesn't need to be cash-less for them to surveil you. E.g. tescos are following the lead of US markets with direct price discounts for "tracking" card holders. Expect the others to follow suit soon.
Your club card has been about surveillance of your buying habits since the last millennium.
J
I don't have one. The price discounts for card holders advertised directly on the shelves are new here.
And given the reported sale of data by sainos and tescos, I'm still OK with that.
(I am fortunate in that I am not reliant on the discounted "cardholder/datamine" prices)
Post by: Canardly on 17 December, 2023, 09:08:14 pm