Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Topic started by: andyoxon on 11 August, 2013, 09:12:42 pm
-
I've searched and can't find the recent threads on this... feel free to post links.
Today towards end of a 70km ride, I had to stop and take my left shoe off for a few minutes - it was so bad. For this ride I'd moved the cleat to the heel most position, if anything this seems to be worse. I've already put some 1-2mm plastic sheet and dunlop basic insole in the Lidl shoes.
Are there any good value SPD shoes that have decent padding/block of the cleat? Anything else to try?
-
Get stiff-soled SPD shoes. LIDL don't cut it.
-
Change pedal to one offering more support?
-
See your doctor about steroid injections for Mortons Neuroma (http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/mortonsneuroma/Pages/Symptomspage.aspx).
-
I suffer from hot foot quite frequently on longer rides, here's what I've found -
1. SPDs on fairly cheap Shimano shoes were the worst source of hot foot, despite being nice and roomy. Can get hot foot in under 200km
2. SPD-SLs on SIDIs were much better, but still got hot foot in hot weather after 400km or so.
3. Look Keos on the same SIDIs seem a bit better again, so hot foot not normally an issue under 600km unless the weather is very hot.
A few weeks ago I had to pack on a DIY 1300 in France because it was too hot. It was a proper heatwave - high 30s, tarmac melting etc and it was pretty much impossible to make any real progress between midday and about 7pm. I got hot foot in less than 200km on that ride, but managed to make it go away by slackening my shoes right off. I didn't think the shoes were tight to begin with but letting my feet move more in the shoes really helped.
I'd recommend trying different pedals/cleats and/or stiffer shoes. If you want to stick with SPDs then mountainbike racing shoes have basically the same rigid sole construction as road race shoes, but they are very expensive.
-
I've gone down every route possible, and have Sidi Mega Wide shoes in a size 50, 49 is my size, on Look Delta cleats. I've also got SPDs and some Northwave MTB shoes on one bike. I have some pedals on that with cleats one side, and rat traps on the other, so I can go shopping on it. When I get hot foot on that I unclip and pedal on my toes or instep on the rat traps until the hot foot goes away and I clip in again.
-
Thanks all. Today I didn't get numbness as such, just ache that got worse. So are non-expensive recessed SPD cleats more prone to press on the foot, than non recessed road shoes? I do find recessed very convenient, but have go to get something better. Not so keen on the idea of SL shoes. Any good examples of stiff soled shoes?
-
Yes they are very convenient, but generally not as stiff as road shoes - and stiffness is the key.
But regardless, I simply don't know how people ride on typical vestigial SPD pedals without a bit of foot support.
You need this sort of thing
(http://www.wigglestatic.com/images/shimano%20m424%20pedals%2004.jpg?w=350&h=350&a=7)
[Shimano M424 image from Wiggle]
Yes they look awful and uncool but they do the job very well. I hate how they look but I've used them these last 12 years or so.
If you use MTB-type shoes with treaded soles and recessed cleats you may well need to hack some sole rubber away to make these safe - that's what I do - otherwise you can easily find your feet totally locked in, be warned.
If you use road shoes, then get decent ones with carbon-reinfoced soles - totally rigid, very nice. LIDL - er no.
But you still have the issue of an unsupported shoe, there can be a outward swivel of the foot (reverse pronation??) which is simply solved by using pedals like the above monstrosity.
-
Thanks, will take a look. I've seen these:
http://www.evanscycles.com/products/shimano/xc50-spd-mtb-shoes-ec039082
(http://www.evanscycles.com/product_image/image/ec9/b4d/f00/79837/product_page/shimano-xc50-spd-mtb-shoes.jpg)
Recessed - inasmuch as they have outer treads rather than the cleat sunk into the sole. Class fibre reinforced - my guess is carbon is more expensive (?) Mind you £80 seems a fair bit for shoes.
On my Lidl shoes, the plate that the cleats mount on is very rigid - so I guess it's either the section 'inside' the shoe, or the whole assembly being pressed in by pressure on pedal.
-
I agree with the comments about a lack of stiffness* causing hot foot
The only times I've had this problem was when using my old Shimano M030 touring shoes, which are quite bendy for a SPD shoe. I guess this is because they are intended for walking in
Good socks help with foot comfort generally too, as do Sorbothane insoles
*stop sniggering!!!
-
I've seen these:
I've been eyeing those myself. I agree £80 is as much as I would want to pay for a pair of shoes, and I've had good results with Shimano shoes in the past (broader than the average). I think I've seen them (or very similar) a bit cheaper in Decathlon.
-
I've got a pair of xc50's and I'm very pleased with them using 'normal' spd's.
Having said that, like all shoes, it's worth trying them on to find out whether you have a 'Shimano shaped foot'
-
Thanks for comments all. XC50s sound promising.
Anatomy of the cleat mount in my shoes... The shoe is actually very rigid - can hardly bend shoe with hands. It looks like the main issue (for me) is padding above the cleat. Not impressed with the thin sponge 'plaster'. The grey insole came with shoe, the other are my additions. My foot is quite tight in the shoe and perhaps this doesn't help. Note 'impression' of cleat well on grey insole.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-RA1vQXD7s2I/UgiV-1o6TWI/AAAAAAAAEw4/vZVCsli5iOU/s512/P1170995.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-wyPeOqIQ4Z0/UgiWBZ9WazI/AAAAAAAAExU/r-Ij05Grl88/s512/P1180005.JPG)
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-GlDwt4u1ln8/UgiWA8RAfFI/AAAAAAAAExQ/5U52Kxi22Jg/s512/P1180004.JPG[/img]
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-iXMmm-k247M/UgiWABTbThI/AAAAAAAAExI/Kp5Fvb8NyHM/s512/P1170999.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-XZfJynoM8-M/UgiV_njiVBI/AAAAAAAAExA/Z2TDgbTAvfo/s512/P1180003.JPG)
-
I use carbon soled spd-sl shoes but still suffer with hot foot on the left. The things which have almost cured my foot pain are moving the cleats backwards and starting off with fairly slack buckles on the shoes. Another thing which has definitely helped is not relying on my left foot for resting on and unweighting myself over bumps, I try to use my right leg too. It may sound weird but most of us favour a leg when riding. Every few miles taking the time to pull up on the pedal stroke with the sore foot helps to keep it at bay.
-
Re. carbon soled shoes... is the carbon a base plate simply to make the sole super rigid, and then the cleat has variable types of material padding on top to protect the foot. Or, is it the case that the cleat mount is encased in carbon on the foot side, so that pressure from the metal cleat mount is well distributed and doesn't hurt foot (generally). Perhaps the construction varies?
-
CF soled shoes are just that. The sole is a cf reinforced composite. Generally it's a "flat" sole with raised tread to "recess" the cleat for walking. Inside the shoe is an insole. Oh, and they're VERY expensive.
http://www.wheelies.co.uk/p38663/Specialized-S-Works-MTB-Shoe.aspx
-
hotfoot returns loads of hits (YACF search is a bit feeble, so doesn't find much for "hot foot")
I've already typed loads about this (several threads), can't be arsed again:
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=74587.msg1539112#msg1539112
-
CF soled shoes are just that. The sole is a cf reinforced composite. Generally it's a "flat" sole with raised tread to "recess" the cleat for walking. Inside the shoe is an insole. Oh, and they're VERY expensive.
http://www.wheelies.co.uk/p38663/Specialized-S-Works-MTB-Shoe.aspx
Thanks. Just to be clear though - in these s-works/top end/similar shoes if one pulled the insole out, the cleat mount would not be visible, simply the carbon sole or perhaps some additional material on top of the carbon soles i.e. the cleat mount is not exposed to the inside of the shoe.
-
ISWYM - and I have no idea! Someone will know though I'm sure.
-
I've edited this a bit:
It looks like the main issue (for me) is padding above the cleat. Not impressed with the thin sponge 'plaster'. The grey insole came with shoe, the other are my additions. My foot is quite tight in the shoe and perhaps this doesn't help. Note 'impression' of cleat well on grey insole.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-wyPeOqIQ4Z0/UgiWBZ9WazI/AAAAAAAAExU/r-Ij05Grl88/s512/P1180005.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-XZfJynoM8-M/UgiV_njiVBI/AAAAAAAAExA/Z2TDgbTAvfo/s512/P1180003.JPG)
Well ... these pics seem to show that your foot isn't even touching the cleat (or it's backing plate). Perhaps it's my eyesight, or piccie quality, but:
The impression on your insole is from the "sticking plaster" cover, not the cleat. The latter would make a much smaller indentation, and should show the 4 screw holes.
-
That 'hollow' plus tight shoes will cause problems.
You don't need tight shoes if using SPDs. Get roomy shoes with a velcro strap (which doesn't stretch). Don't lace them up tight.
There should be a sticky-backed bit of aluminium to go over that 'hole'. You could fill it with silicone sealant (which is removable if you need to replace the plate).
-
That's right, the flat cleat mount plate is in the recessed 'chamber', or hollow, and it seems that the rectangular edge of this hollow must be digging into my foot, the shielding/padding is not sufficient. I may have some aluminium around, will have a look.
Perhaps If I centralise the cleat in the 'hollow' and find some plate to go over, this may be some sort of fix.
-
All SPD, all the same pedals, and same bike:-
I've got two pairs of shoes that will give me hotfoot after 60km-80km of riding. (Some Adidas SPD shoes and some cheaper Spesh MTB Sport shoes I use for commuting).
I've got one pair of shoes that hasn't given me hotfoot after 250km of riding. Never ridden longer in these shoes (really old Shimano SPD shoes with cloth uppers but a really stiff sole.)
I've got one pair of shoes that hasn't given me hotfoot at all during 1200km and 1400km rides. (Spesh MTB Pro with carbon soles.)
A larger pedal platform may delay the onset of hotfoot a bit, maybe even long enough to complete the specific event. But you can't get a larger pedal platform that the sole of the shoe, so as stiff a sole as you can remain comfy in seems the best option.
-
Why have no one mention the likelihood of the insoles being the curpit? some people feet are different, I got a custom insoles because I have a very high arch that put more pressure on the back of my feet and the balls of my feet (almost none in the middle).
the hot spot occur for me depending on how well the shoes fit regardless of the price, having more support on the middle of my feet (the arch), i have noticable less pressure on the balls of my feet now.
stiff shoes help, but only does so much.
-
For me it's the ball of the foot - back from where my toes 'join'. Even without the added insole, when I could wiggle my toes and move my foot more, I was getting ache and also at times numbness.
-
You could try some gaffer tape on the inside of the shoe above the cleat, under the insole and over the adhesive patches provided which cover the cleat retention plate. Sometimes shoes have a thinnish insole which leaves you vulnerable to having the sole of your foot being impacted upon by the cleat creating a pressure point. The lidl shoes are fine for a local pootle but not for a long run. (nor are the cheaper Shimano shoes due to same issue).
-
CF soled shoes are just that. The sole is a cf reinforced composite. Generally it's a "flat" sole with raised tread to "recess" the cleat for walking. Inside the shoe is an insole. Oh, and they're VERY expensive.
http://www.wheelies.co.uk/p38663/Specialized-S-Works-MTB-Shoe.aspx
Thanks. Just to be clear though - in these s-works/top end/similar shoes if one pulled the insole out, the cleat mount would not be visible, simply the carbon sole or perhaps some additional material on top of the carbon soles i.e. the cleat mount is not exposed to the inside of the shoe.
OK, well on mine (the Spesh ones I linked to) there is, under the removable insole, another thin felt-like covering of the carbon sole, and the cleat area is concealed (although there is a removable strip to access it should one want to)
-
I get this pretty bad on the Recumbent trike when wearing the Shimano SPD sandals. They don't seem to have any kind of removable insole or any access to the top plate above the cleats from the top of the lining of the inner sole. I could try using some double sided tape on inner soles but it might look a bit on the "Train spotter with Sellotaped glasses" overall look.
Any other more tidy ideas would be appreciated.
-
I get this pretty bad on the Recumbent trike when wearing the Shimano SPD sandals.
:o
I simply don't believe this - I've been reading YACF long enough to know that SPD sandals cure everything, and are suitable for rides upto at least 2000km (a week) between January and December, rain or shine.
-
Hot foot?
Shoes are too narrow. Get some better fitted width shoes.
-
I get this pretty bad on the Recumbent trike when wearing the Shimano SPD sandals.
:o
I simply don't believe this - I've been reading YACF long enough to know that SPD sandals cure everything, and are suitable for rides upto at least 2000km (a week) between January and December, rain or shine.
Ah, but SPD Sandals magic panacea powers will be cancelled out by riding a recumbent, which (as any fule who has read YACF for long enough knows) also cures all known comfort problems.
-
Thanks, will take a look. I've seen these:
http://www.evanscycles.com/products/shimano/xc50-spd-mtb-shoes-ec039082
(http://www.evanscycles.com/product_image/image/ec9/b4d/f00/79837/product_page/shimano-xc50-spd-mtb-shoes.jpg)
Recessed - inasmuch as they have outer treads rather than the cleat sunk into the sole. Class fibre reinforced - my guess is carbon is more expensive (?) Mind you £80 seems a fair bit for shoes.
On my Lidl shoes, the plate that the cleats mount on is very rigid - so I guess it's either the section 'inside' the shoe, or the whole assembly being pressed in by pressure on pedal.
I have a pair of those. Must have the right shaped foot because they're the most comfortable shoes I own, including non cycling shoes. Can cycle to work wearing them then walk around all day comfortably. Have to be a bit careful on hard shiny surfaces though.
Much more comfortable than the two or three pairs of cheaper Shimano SPD shoes I had prior.
My spell checker tries to turn 'Shimano' into 'Hiroshima'.
-
Thanks all. I've duct taped some inner tube over the cleat mount plate recess (with the thin foam bit in place), and over this - a piece of 'tin snipped' (and filed down) 1mm thick aluminium plate in the shape of the top half of an insole, with the original insole on top, and have dispensed with the additional insole. The shoes feel comfortable, but now the proof is in the cycling. :)
-
I get this pretty bad on the Recumbent trike when wearing the Shimano SPD sandals.
:o
I simply don't believe this - I've been reading YACF long enough to know that SPD sandals cure everything, and are suitable for rides up to at least 2000km (a week) between January and December, rain or shine.
Yebbut their powers are cancelled by thinking about getting a pair of Rainlegs for next December!
-
Thanks all. I've duct taped some inner tube over the cleat mount plate recess (with the thin foam bit in place), and over this - a piece of 'tin snipped' (and filed down) 1mm thick aluminium plate in the shape of the top half of an insole, with the original insole on top, and have dispensed with the additional insole. The shoes feel comfortable, but now the proof is in the cycling. :)
Aluminium plate. ;) ;D
Don’t put too much squashy stuff in your shoes, as this is continually compressing and relaxing with every pedal stroke, and heating up in the process.
-
Thanks all. I've duct taped some inner tube over the cleat mount plate recess (with the thin foam bit in place), and over this - a piece of 'tin snipped' (and filed down) 1mm thick aluminium plate in the shape of the top half of an insole, with the original insole on top, and have dispensed with the additional insole. The shoes feel comfortable, but now the proof is in the cycling. :)
Aluminium plate. ;) ;D
Don’t put too much squashy stuff in your shoes, as this is continually compressing and relaxing with every pedal stroke, and heating up in the process.
... Aluminum sheeting ???
Hopefully won't be a problem, the soles are very rigid and the Al won't get to bend much. I can always remove the rubber beneath/reduce the size of the Al piece. Will see what happens.
-
Psss't dont cycle in those when there is lightning about!
-
Psss't dont cycle in those when there is lightning about!
Although even full rubber shoes or tyres for that matter apparentlly provide no real protection from lightning anyway... ;)
-
I was shocked (no pun intended) to read that some 60 peeps a year in the UK are hit by lightning each year.
-
Problem: Attack of hot foot due to waffle moulding inside soles of shoes on somewhere several hundred K into Mille Cymru in deepest Wales:
Cure Blue-tack from open all hours store pushed into holes and covered with thick polythene to stop it sticking where not required Still in place :)
-
This may be a bit late :facepalm:, but there is a small piece in issue 279 (most recent one - arrived today) of C+. It mentions shoe size, inserts and cleats position to be the main ways of helping it.
-
anecdata: i've done many miles and long rides in lidl shoes (lel, mille miglia), never had a problem with my feet. recently, wearing 2013 s-works shoes i started to get numb toes on the second day into eleven day ride. i think it's the inserts that weren't quite right for my not-so-standard-shaped feet (overpronating but with high arch).
-
We are all unique I guess.
-
We are all unique I guess.
I'm not ....
-
Certainly the idea of moving the cleats back (often recommended for hot foot) would be anathema to me. I have always put mine as far forward as they will go. Each to his own.
-
While I use Shimano shoes for most occasions, on longer rides (100k+) use my Northwaves, which are radically different, effectively stiff road shoes but still with recessed SPD.
Here's what it looks like
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-P8hf4OKKbQU/Uhcd-sU8eZI/AAAAAAAAq1A/9Okd4mlI0es/s400/20130823_092722.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-X27htznjEFs/Uhcd_O_1bNI/AAAAAAAAq1I/vssMOARkD40/s400/20130823_092754.jpg)
The plastic substrate it sits on (I don't _think_ it is carbon) is not just very stiff like the shimano but pretty solid. Heel to toe, flexing in my hands, there is only 10mm of movement for anything below destructive force.
This has two effects.
1 - It appears to eliminate hot foot, at any of the distances I have ridden (max 250km)
2 - It adds another level of complexity to clipping in, requiring and adjustment from my standard technique. When you fail to remember this, the shoe slides off before engaging resulting in a pedal/shin interface.
ETA: I have VERY broad feet
-
I got hot foot for the first time this summer. Very painful. Would have to stop every half hour or so and hop about a bit till it went away. Did lots of research on the net and found that everyone who suffered had a different solution to offer. Many of these involved spending lots of money for stiffer shoes etc.
My LBS owner saw me eyeing up some 300 euro Specialized shoes and told me not to waste my cash. It's your foot swelling up, he said. Just take your sock off. If that doesn't do it, take the insole out.
Well I have wide shoes, and they felt comfortably loose to me - even too loose - so I considered his advice off the mark. Especially as some had suggested buying expensive, often thicker, socks would do the trick, and others said special insoles were what's needed.
But taking a sock off was quick and cheap to try out, so I did.
End of problem! YMMV
-
...
But taking a sock off was quick and cheap to try out, so I did.
End of problem! YMMV
in this case, it almost certainly will!
-
But taking a sock off was quick and cheap to try out, so I did.
End of problem! YMMV
Sandals FTW
-
I am a recent sandal convert and must say how immensely comfortable they are.
-
While I use Shimano shoes for most occasions, on longer rides (100k+) use my Northwaves, which are radically different, effectively stiff road shoes but still with recessed SPD.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-P8hf4OKKbQU/Uhcd-sU8eZI/AAAAAAAAq1A/9Okd4mlI0es/s400/20130823_092722.jpg)
Unless you play football in your cycling shoes, you could unscrew those circular bits at the front and throw them away. You feet will be lighter (rotating weight too) and better ventilated/drained. ;)
I've used Northwaves for the last 14 years**, and Shimanos before that. I don't find any significant difference between them. At my price point both have stiff soles, though not as stiff as I'd like.
** the first pair lasted me 11 years, quite exceptional.
-
Anecdotal evidence, but I went and bought a pair of stiffer soled shoes and some Look pedals to replace my Shimano road/touring spd. Wore them on a very hilly 200 (4.5AAA) and felt the difference with the power transfer immediately and did not get hotfoot. It was a very warm day. I feel sure I would have been struggling after 100k or so with the old set up. Prior to this, hotfoot was the limiting factor on my rides. One swallow doesn't make a spring, but this is a very good sign.
-
Anecdotal evidence, but I went and bought a pair of stiffer soled shoes
...
Glad they worked for you!