Author Topic: Base training  (Read 169581 times)

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Base training
« Reply #1850 on: March 06, 2020, 04:23:10 pm »
I should do some training.
i had a month's break from training and tried to restart with over-unders today. after tasting blood during the warmup i still perservered out of curiosity. managed 3min of the first interval (which felt like vo2max) and threw the towel in. will retest my ftp (my guestimate 240-250w) and start again from humble beginnings.

Nasty!  Did you just set FTP too high, or is there something horrible in your lungs?

I've just been to Richmond Park to do 5x10.  Took me 45 minutes longer than doing it on the turbo would have done but much more pleasant on a sunny day.  Lots of people riding in shorts, with air temperature of 8-9 degrees!  A few even in short sleeves.

i haven't adjusted ftp and tried to see how it will go at the level i've been training a month ago (270w) - clearly too high. tasting blood is quite common for high intensity work, especially when not being used to it.

it's lovely outside, tomorrow looks good too!

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Base training
« Reply #1851 on: March 06, 2020, 04:26:09 pm »
It depends what you are doing.  If you are doing 5 sec sprint intervals, you need real time.  If you just want average power over a ride, or are only doing intervals which are a few minutes in duration, anything is fine.

If I do intervals, they will be on hills, so 1-5 minutes, rather than 5-10 seconds... I'll try the 10s setting and see how I get on

10s is too laggy for me (would be ok for tt's, ironman etc.)

rob

Re: Base training
« Reply #1852 on: March 06, 2020, 04:36:37 pm »
Worked from home today for business continuity purposes.  Did a 90min mock commute first thing.

Lunchtime I did the session I skipped on Tuesday night.   I forgot that I prefer people in the house when I do high intensity stuff.   Still, made it through OK.   2hr turbo tomorrow and audax on Sunday.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1853 on: March 06, 2020, 05:20:40 pm »
Worked from home today for business continuity purposes.  Did a 90min mock commute first thing.

Lunchtime I did the session I skipped on Tuesday night.   I forgot that I prefer people in the house when I do high intensity stuff.   Still, made it through OK.   2hr turbo tomorrow and audax on Sunday.

Good point, never thought of that. 
I mainly do turbos when I'm working form home, which I do most days at the moment. 

rob

Re: Base training
« Reply #1854 on: March 06, 2020, 05:45:17 pm »
Worked from home today for business continuity purposes.  Did a 90min mock commute first thing.

Lunchtime I did the session I skipped on Tuesday night.   I forgot that I prefer people in the house when I do high intensity stuff.   Still, made it through OK.   2hr turbo tomorrow and audax on Sunday.

Good point, never thought of that. 
I mainly do turbos when I'm working form home, which I do most days at the moment.

Prompted by someone we both know having a stroke whilst on the turbo, to be honest.

simonp

Re: Base training
« Reply #1855 on: March 06, 2020, 06:07:07 pm »
Worked from home today for business continuity purposes.  Did a 90min mock commute first thing.

Lunchtime I did the session I skipped on Tuesday night.   I forgot that I prefer people in the house when I do high intensity stuff.   Still, made it through OK.   2hr turbo tomorrow and audax on Sunday.

Good point, never thought of that. 
I mainly do turbos when I'm working form home, which I do most days at the moment.

Prompted by someone we both know having a stroke whilst on the turbo, to be honest.

If that happens to me, I'm unlikely to be heard.


Re: Base training
« Reply #1856 on: March 06, 2020, 08:26:22 pm »
Re: power meter display settings, FWIW (not a lot!) , I also use Power (3 sec), and on the climbing page (this is Wahoo, not Garmin) I use Power (3 sec)/FTP %.

Climbing is one of the few occasions I actually ride off power (vs. just collecting data), and displaying it as a % of FTP rather than the raw number makes it (i) less jumpy since the 2 digit % has less resolution than a 3 digit W number and (ii) makes the number I'm 'targeting' relatively independent of changing fitness, eg. I might target 90% on a very long climb, or 115% on a short one, and as long as my FTP is set "correctly" then I can target roughly the same % across the season (even though the corresponding W number will change over the season). Not the best explanation but I'm sure someone knows what I mean...

I rode outside today - a very rare occurrence these past few months - experiencing actual live sunshine and ruined roads. I've spent so long in Erg Mode indoors that I momentarily forgot how to change down when I hit the bottom of a 20%-er and shifted the wrong way down the block.:facepalm:  ;D

S2L

Re: Base training
« Reply #1857 on: March 07, 2020, 11:32:34 am »
Predictably, I am already hooked to the numbers... efforts are very similar to what I expected them to be... if anything a bit higher... didn't know I could churn out 500-600 Watt for more than a few seconds.... average power on the day a lot higher than Strava estimated, which also is what I expected... you can't hammer yourself for 3 hours, return home spent and be told that you used 120 Watt on average (which is what Strava thought the average was), 170 seems more likely...  :thumbsup:

simonp

Re: Base training
« Reply #1858 on: March 07, 2020, 12:11:55 pm »
Predictably, I am already hooked to the numbers... efforts are very similar to what I expected them to be... if anything a bit higher... didn't know I could churn out 500-600 Watt for more than a few seconds.... average power on the day a lot higher than Strava estimated, which also is what I expected... you can't hammer yourself for 3 hours, return home spent and be told that you used 120 Watt on average (which is what Strava thought the average was), 170 seems more likely...  :thumbsup:

Depressingly the time I can hold 500W has reduced from 45s in 2012 to 38s last year.

S2L

Re: Base training
« Reply #1859 on: March 07, 2020, 12:50:08 pm »
Predictably, I am already hooked to the numbers... efforts are very similar to what I expected them to be... if anything a bit higher... didn't know I could churn out 500-600 Watt for more than a few seconds.... average power on the day a lot higher than Strava estimated, which also is what I expected... you can't hammer yourself for 3 hours, return home spent and be told that you used 120 Watt on average (which is what Strava thought the average was), 170 seems more likely...  :thumbsup:

Depressingly the time I can hold 500W has reduced from 45s in 2012 to 38s last year.

Doesn't seem a big difference... surely it's a case of 38 on an average day and 45 on a good day...

Re: Base training
« Reply #1860 on: March 07, 2020, 12:53:24 pm »
Isn't it also from random ride data rather than targeted attempts at holding 500W average for as long as you can?
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

simonp

Re: Base training
« Reply #1861 on: March 07, 2020, 01:01:03 pm »
Isn't it also from random ride data rather than targeted attempts at holding 500W average for as long as you can?

Both from random outdoor rides. I’m pretty sure the drop is real though.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1862 on: March 10, 2020, 04:28:16 pm »
They say the silliest questions are the ones that you think of but are scared to ask...

So, I'll ask it:

Are intervals supposed to be always as hard as you can do or are they sometimes meant to be somewhat easy? 

In my pre-smart trainer days, I implicitly assumed the former and would put out as much power as I felt I was able to, while still getting to the end - pretty much like I would pace a TT.  However, with TRainerroad on a smart trainer, some (not all) interal sessions are not easy, but fairly comfortable.  I don't mean the recovery ride ones (as I don't do those on a turbo anyway) but sweet spot intervals. 

Sometimes I up my resistance by a good chunk (10% on Monday) to make them a bit harder, but they are still not that hard. 

Are they meant to be easily achievable, and they are giving me an optimum level of workout which doesn't leave me knackered for the next day, or have I just got my FTP reading too low?

fboab

  • It's a fecking serious business, riding a bike
Re: Base training
« Reply #1863 on: March 10, 2020, 04:36:12 pm »
There's different intervals for different purposes.
Generally I can do threshold intervals without it feeling like I'm going to die, and quite a few of them. Or VO2Max sprints with a long recovery.

The point of sweet spot intervals is that you can keep doing them day after day. They're less effective but don't take it out of you, so you can recover and do it again sooner.

So yes, as per your last paragraph. Just because that's true doesn't mean your FTP is set correctly, though!
TSS is not Total Sex Score, Chris!

rob

Re: Base training
« Reply #1864 on: March 10, 2020, 04:51:57 pm »
I am prescribed a range of different intervals over time.   I think it's to stop me from getting bored.   The last few weeks have been very toppy with 20s/30s/40s intervals at 90% effort (not 90% FTP).   At the end of the 40s I was gasping for air with a HR in the 180s.   This was done 8 times with differing recoveries.

I've also been doing 6 * 10mins at what I'd call tempo and some pyramid style efforts which go endurance/tempo/threshold/VO2max and then back down.

If I finish any of these so battered I can't ride the next day then they're too hard.   The programme seems to be more about cumulative load and steady gains than anything else.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1865 on: March 10, 2020, 05:34:43 pm »
Part of the reason I do a spinning class is that someone else has planned everything for me although it's easy to go too hard or too easy first few times. A few weeks of doing it and, with some analysis and googling, I can see what the individual sets are (in terms of %-age FTP) and what effect they should be having. The instructor never talks about FTP or similar (as it would be lost on most of the class) but I can now translate the terms he uses for the general gym user into "sweetspot", "threshold", etc. I also have got used to it and know the power that I can aim to hold for a certain period (e.g. a minute, two minutes, etc).

Obviously if you have a turbo at home you can get someone else to do the thinking by using Zwift or TrainerRoad or similar, but all I've got access to is a gym bike that displays power.

As others have said, what you want is variety. Doing 2x20 at 105% FTP is never fun at the best of times and doing it twice a week is a hideous thought, but stuff like 12x1 or 3x8 or pyramids or steps can be much less hideous, and then there's always sweetspot work with sprints and recoveries which rarely feels dreadful.

With just access to a gym bike (and no instructor) I'm using it to do a ramp test[1] every few weeks, and then picking various things from my spinning classes (i.e. 3x8 at xW or 12x1 at yW) and try and follow those as best I can in the other weeks.

[EDIT] Here's an example spinning class: https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/4636420949 there's a bit of faff at the beginning with him walking some new people through the "sprint shift" lever and the resistance wheel (they're Stages spinning bikes) but the main stuff starts just after 8:30. If you expand the power graph and then overlay cadence it makes most sense. There are 4 main sections:-
* gradual warm up at 90rpm from easy (100W), medium (160W) and then target as much as you can hold for 1 minute (but make it - I chose 350W), a brief recovery (20s or so) and then straight back into it turning the resistance wheel up until you grind to a halt.
* recovery then 3 sets of sweetspot work with 90s at 90rpm and ~90% FTP and then a minute at 100rpm (without changing resistance) and then a 20s sprint at 120rpm, 50s recovery between and repeat another 2 times
* longer recovery (3 mins) then 9 minutes of sweetspot work of a baseline of 90rpm at ~90% FTP with 3x20s sprints and 1x30s sprint at 120rpm going straight back to 90rpm with no recovery
* 2 min recovery and then similar of 4.5 minutes up near FTP with 4 sprints at 110rpm with no recovery, straight back to 90rpm, one minute recovery (in reality it's longer than this, I just stopped the watch early) and then stop and stretch

Other classes have very different shapes, this one was obviously a sweetspot day, other days often have more of the "all in for one minute" intervals or even a "don't get past 55s" interval where you just keep on piling on the resistance until you're done.

1. With my current FTP of ~210W I do a ~4 min warm up (with a few 5s sprints to 120rpm) and then do a minute at 150W (i.e. start somewhere around 3/5 to 3/4 of your current FTP), then a minute at 175W, etc and upwards all the way until I fail to hold a minute at the next target, then a ~4 min cool down. A reasonable estimate of your FTP is then 75% of your peak 1 minute power. It's only 14-15 minutes for the whole thing and should only be a few minutes of hideousness. The progression is required to build in fatigue, as without the preload I can hold a much higher figure for a minute (I've never managed to complete the 300W minute but, in isolation, I can just about hold 400W for a minute).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Phil W

Re: Base training
« Reply #1866 on: March 10, 2020, 06:50:01 pm »
Depends on what training regime you subscribe to.

If you subscribe to the Polarised model then yes your intervals are always hard.  Then your easy volume rides are easy. Polarised also advocates around 20% of sessions are hard. You don’t do any threshold or sweet spot work.

If you subscribe to the more sweet spot or threshold model then your intervals will be easier and you’ll do more of these quite hard sessions.

You can argue over which is better bang for buck and the research is out there. But firstly it’ll come down to frequency and consistency of whatever you are doing. If you can’t get this bit right then doesn’t matter what programme you think you are following. So do what works for you.




Re: Base training
« Reply #1867 on: March 11, 2020, 09:47:35 am »
There's a reason why it's called sweetspot - it's hard enough to get good physiological responses, but easy enough you can do loads of it.
If you make your sweetspot intervals into threshold ones then as the plan builds over time you will wear yourself down and be unable to do the later ones (because of fatigue). There's relatively little point in paying TR to do the planning for you and then not following it. ;)

Re: Base training
« Reply #1868 on: March 11, 2020, 11:40:52 am »

You can argue over which is better bang for buck and the research is out there. But firstly it’ll come down to frequency and consistency of whatever you are doing.

https://youtu.be/jFXnjPvyO1M

Decent summary there. Alex from Fast fitness tips is a Prof at Leicester, and knows about evidence synthesis. I wouldn't want him as a coach, and his voice is borderline unlistenable, but he pulls the evidence together efficiently.

I would like to be able to stick to polarised, but compared to managing your TSB so that you don't get injured, and progressively raising your CTL with a sensible ramp rate, it's marginal. The effect sizes are small.

I've ground myself into the ground doing 700+ TSS weeks of sweet spot for months on end, losing all top end power before. I'm trying to mix up vo2 sessions with long z2 sessions and the occasional sweet spot and anaerobic capacity session, within the context of keeping my TSB around 30 and building towards a CTL of 75 in time for the old 240 in July.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

simonp

Re: Base training
« Reply #1869 on: March 11, 2020, 11:45:36 am »
I think just doing sweet spot only is going to lead to stagnation and burn out. 700TSS weeks of sweet spot would be more than I could sustain.

I'm still getting back from illness and doing the SSB low volume, but I'm replacing the Tuesday workout, which is usually SS, with a VO2max. I'm miles off where I was before Christmas, and it's a bit annoying, but things could be worse.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1870 on: March 12, 2020, 06:40:41 am »
Interesting, thanks. 

I think my main issue is that I don't have much confidence in the ramp test as an accurate way to measure my FTP.  Essentially, I think it is under-measuring significantly and making intervals based on it easier than they ought to be to actually be sweet spot. 

I need to try a different test!

Re: Base training
« Reply #1871 on: March 12, 2020, 08:59:26 am »
Interesting, thanks. 

I think my main issue is that I don't have much confidence in the ramp test as an accurate way to measure my FTP.  Essentially, I think it is under-measuring significantly and making intervals based on it easier than they ought to be to actually be sweet spot. 

I need to try a different test!
You know how to pace - do the 20 minute test. The Ramp test is really good if you don't have much pacing experience or if you have a sharp edge. If you've (only) been doing tons of base work, I suspect it will under read until you get some VO2 in.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1872 on: March 12, 2020, 10:16:51 am »
Call me old fashioned but why not just do a 1-hour FTP test?  It seems that there is a constant need by trainers and training companies (big business these days) to re-invent the wheel.

I can see the point in things like ramp tests where a quick approximation is required but if you are doing this yourself with no time restrictions surely the best way to find your FTP is, by definition, a 1-hour FTP session.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1873 on: March 12, 2020, 10:27:07 am »
Sure, but it's hard to do it properly for no reason (i.e. not in a 25 mile TT).

The whole point of the other tests is that they can give a fairly accurate estimate of FTP without needing to do an entire hour but, as has been pointed out, they come with various caveats.
* 1 hour at FTP is hideous.
* 95% of 20 minute power is much less stressful but still hideous.

The less hideous it is the more sensitive it is to little things like testing familiarity, over compensation, etc.

The other main point is that to do an hour at FTP you need to have a reasonable idea of what your FTP is in order to aim for that power for the entire hour, and that puts you back at square one. For tests like the ramp test you don't need to know anything in advance, simply add on a chunk of power every 1 or 3 minutes (depending on which protocol you're doing).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Base training
« Reply #1874 on: March 12, 2020, 12:00:29 pm »
If you hate doing FTP tests, you can always pay for blood lactate testing - my test result was within 4w of my Zwift FTP test. Just beware that some places use a cheap protocol that doesn't let you warm up first, which gives errant results. The Porsche human performance place at Silverstone did a useless test on my brother without letting him warm up.