Author Topic: Base training  (Read 250290 times)

Re: Base training
« Reply #200 on: 27 April, 2016, 08:55:09 am »
Target for a twice weekly CT20 ( 20 min FTP test ) is 1% better than last time. As weeks go by, remember 1% becomes a larger absolute value.

The process takes a long time. The only “Quick win” is to sell your soul to the Devil.

LEE

  • "Shut Up Jens" - Legs.
Re: Base training
« Reply #201 on: 27 April, 2016, 08:57:53 am »
I think watts/kilo is a better comparison if you want like for like. Wiggo's power for the hour was 458 watts, bearing in mind this is only 8 watts less than my three minute effort the mind does boggle. However if you take his weight at the time, which IIRC was around the 75kg mark, gives a w/kg of 6 and a bit which is about right.

When I compare Watts/Kilo it just makes matters worse.

Heart-rate was noticeably down today (confirming my suspicions that I feel a bit ill). I'm going to give it a miss for a week now, then go back for a MMP (3 minute test) in about 10 days. It's the longest 3 minutes of my life but I'm confident I'll see measurable improvements after my first 10 sessions.

I've already set some Strava PBs that I set in July before PBP (when I was as fit as I can ever remember).  Since I don't use a power-meter those PBs are anecdotal (wind direction, temperature, ..other variables).  Still, I really wasn't expecting a PB at this time of the year, especially over an 11 minute segment.  I definitely noticed the top of the hills appearing before I ran out of breath.  I've done the same segment twice a week for a couple of years so I have a very solid baseline for my times.

I'll check it wasn't a Strava malfunction when I'm feeling recovered.

I've trained on my own turbo and in Spin classes but the Wattbike sessions have made me dig deeper than anything I've done before.  There's just no hiding.  If you aren't in Zone 4 at 95rpm then the whole class knows it.
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

rob

Re: Base training
« Reply #202 on: 27 April, 2016, 09:05:24 am »
thanks for the advice simonp, i will be easing into intervals starting with the shorter and working my way up to 2x20. are there any recommended training plans available for "proper" endurance racing? i've done quite a lot of searching and most recommend doing longer intervals at or near ftp level.

re the pros and w/kg - i managed 6w/kg for three minutes by giving it all and felt light-headed for the rest of the day.. to do this for almost an hour  :o

The rider at the pointy end of the BBAR - Adam Topham - for the last few years has moved to a plan with pretty much all tempo and all done on the turbo.   He's done 300+ miles in a 12hr so seems to work.   Other successful 24hr riders have been known to do a load of HIIT as well.   Ultra racers seem to do an awful lot of base work.   

I'm trying to do 3-4hrs tempo each weekend on the TT bike in position, but will up that in the coming weeks and reduce my turbo work.   Comfort in position is vital - the 2nd 12hrs of my last, and only, 24hr were ruined by back, hip and later neck issues.   I do believe in the longer events that it's not necessarily the rider with the highest ftp that wins - it's the one that can feed, hydrate, stay aero and not stop.

LMT

Re: Base training
« Reply #203 on: 27 April, 2016, 11:25:41 am »
Target for a twice weekly CT20 ( 20 min FTP test ) is 1% better than last time. As weeks go by, remember 1% becomes a larger absolute value.

The process takes a long time. The only “Quick win” is to sell your soul to the Devil.

Are you suggesting a FTP test is done twice per week?

With respect fuck that, the recovery alone is not worth it and I'd rather be doing something more constructive. At the beginning of a 4 week block of training after you've tapered for a week (following on from a three week block of training) - for sure, so you can readjust your zones and see how are you getting on, but not every week.

simonp

Re: Base training
« Reply #204 on: 27 April, 2016, 11:31:06 am »
+1 to LMT's last post.

You can gauge your improvement by how the workouts feel. An accurate FTP test is hard, and you need to be fresh, doing it twice weekly would be insane.

Chris S

Re: Base training
« Reply #205 on: 27 April, 2016, 11:58:36 am »
+1 to LMT's last post.

You can gauge your improvement by how the workouts feel. An accurate FTP test is hard, and you need to be fresh, doing it twice weekly would be insane.

Not to mention, pointless.

simonp

Re: Base training
« Reply #206 on: 02 May, 2016, 11:10:23 pm »
So an interesting couple of days after DNSing the Brevet Cymru as I felt too tired. Saturday off then I tried a TrainerRoad workout which I thought might be too hard - Leconte - it was. I did 2 of the 3 sets so it basically became Prater. Which is 2x20 over unders with a short break in the middle of each 20. Because I stopped early I did 30 mins easy immediately afterwards. Then last night I did Bays which is an hour near the top of the endurance zone with 4 x 20s sprints thrown in to make it interesting. Sore legs.

Today I wanted to do some vo2max work so I picked Solomons which I've not tried since increasing my FTP to 280. Tough, very tough. I had to turn it down by 5% half way through. Despite that I did a PR for 2 minute power later on in the workout and it's the highest 90 minute NP I've achieved. The last three 2-minute intervals were tough with the burning extending down from my quads through my knees into my lower legs. Ow, ow, ow. Now knackered.

rob

Re: Base training
« Reply #207 on: 03 May, 2016, 12:04:34 pm »
Turbo sessions last week did not go at all to plan.   Not having a power meter I have been using speed/cadence assuming that my body weight pressing down on the turbo would give me the same level of resistance.   Turns out this probably isn't the case and I'm now going to test run down when I put the turbo back together at the end of a weekend.

Did 6hrs on the TT bike on a circuit of Romney Marsh on Saturday.   I was able to hold 20mph+ average but had a few back/neck niggles so back to the osteopath on Saturday.   I would have done an extra hour but got soaked in a sleety thunderstorm so flaked when I passed the car.

simonp

Re: Base training
« Reply #208 on: 06 May, 2016, 01:12:42 pm »
thanks for the advice simonp, i will be easing into intervals starting with the shorter and working my way up to 2x20. are there any recommended training plans available for "proper" endurance racing? i've done quite a lot of searching and most recommend doing longer intervals at or near ftp level.

re the pros and w/kg - i managed 6w/kg for three minutes by giving it all and felt light-headed for the rest of the day.. to do this for almost an hour  :o

I've not looked around much for other plans.

Training is generally structured into macro cycles (season) meso cycles (e.g. an 8 week block) and micro cycles (typically around 7 days). The microcycle in particular is pretty arbitrary, but making it about a week allows a structure that fits around work etc.

Looking at the typical structure for high-volume in TrainerRoad, high volume training is typically around 8h per week with around 400 TSS per week. Typically it will be something like for 5 days,

Monday - rest.
Tuesday - intervals, e.g. threshold work.
Wednesday - tempo or endurance.
Thursday - intervals again.
Friday - rest.
Saturday - longer intervals session (e.g. 90 minutes)
Sunday - long endurance session (3h or more)

If you could devote more time, then for an ultra endurance racer, either replacing threshold work with a longer endurance session might be an option, or adding extra "TSS accumulation" endurance rides in. It depends on how much training volume you can handle. If training 6 days a week then Friday can be used for additional endurance work.

Within the mesocycle, you re-test FTP every 4-6 weeks, and every 4-6 weeks is also a recovery week. The mesocycle contains the base/build/speciality structure that I've been using. So I did base (hence this thread) starting the week after PBP, with no real break (but I have had the odd week off) then switched to build last month, but that's truncated by the fact my A event is the Mille Pennines, so I'm now doing the speciality (Century) plan from TrainerRoad which should take me right up to the event including a taper. As the event is clearly more than a century, I will add in more endurance work most likely (as well as riding a 600k which will require a recovery week).

I had a very easy week last week due to Real Life and I also have to fit around rowing club training sessions, which in theory could be 4 per week, so I often have to adjust the plan accordingly. I should've done a VO2max intervals session yesterday but was tired so skipped it. I might do it after work today, as I had a good night's sleep for the first time in a few days.



simonp

Re: Base training
« Reply #209 on: 08 May, 2016, 12:49:33 am »
This week I fell asleep at my desk at work at 6pm on Thursday so no rowing erg session or cycling training on Thursday. I felt fine on Friday, worked from home which saves some energy, and did a HIIT workout on Friday evening. Today I did a rowing water session in the morning and a slightly shorter, but arguably in some ways harder than planned cycling workout (Prater). I previously failed to complete the final block of this on target with FTP set to 280W but got through it tonight.

I think it felt harder than the HIIT workout despite having a lower normalised power for the hour (incidentally - this was a personal best for 60 minute average power). What that indicates, I suspect, is that where I still lack is muscular endurance. But it's clearly improving. However not enough to consider bumping my FTP up - comparing the workout I did at 255W FTP setting, my HR was a lot higher (peaking at 189bpm at the end of the final set). I'd say it was touch and go as to whether I got through it. Back in early March I peaked at 169 - probably suggesting my true FTP at the time was higher than 255W.

If I ever get comfortable with this workout at 280W then I should be retesting.



Chris S

Re: Base training
« Reply #210 on: 13 May, 2016, 11:27:42 am »
Last two turbo sessions have revealed the ugly truth - 16% aerobic decoupling. And that, my friends, is one of the reasons I'm a helper at the Bryan Chapman this weekend, and not a rider.

I'm SO (aerobically) unfit  :facepalm:.

simonp

Re: Base training
« Reply #211 on: 13 May, 2016, 11:43:52 am »
I did a 2h workout on TrainerRoad on Sunday which was endurance (but not constant - it went as high as 210W which is near the top of the endurance zone for my FTP).

Pw:Hr of 4.47%.



zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Base training
« Reply #212 on: 13 May, 2016, 02:06:24 pm »


thanks for the advice simonp, i will be easing into intervals starting with the shorter and working my way up to 2x20. are there any recommended training plans available for "proper" endurance racing? i've done quite a lot of searching and most recommend doing longer intervals at or near ftp level.

re the pros and w/kg - i managed 6w/kg for three minutes by giving it all and felt light-headed for the rest of the day.. to do this for almost an hour  :o

I've not looked around much for other plans.

Training is generally structured into macro cycles (season) meso cycles (e.g. an 8 week block) and micro cycles (typically around 7 days). The microcycle in particular is pretty arbitrary, but making it about a week allows a structure that fits around work etc.
<...>

thank you for sharing. structured training is the most efficient way to get stronger, however sticking to the plan in real life is easier said than done.. i will do another chunk of long steady riding in italy in two weeks time (2200km) and after that be riding 75km local loop as fast as i can couple of times a week.

LMT

Re: Base training
« Reply #213 on: 13 May, 2016, 05:15:28 pm »


thanks for the advice simonp, i will be easing into intervals starting with the shorter and working my way up to 2x20. are there any recommended training plans available for "proper" endurance racing? i've done quite a lot of searching and most recommend doing longer intervals at or near ftp level.

re the pros and w/kg - i managed 6w/kg for three minutes by giving it all and felt light-headed for the rest of the day.. to do this for almost an hour  :o

I've not looked around much for other plans.

Training is generally structured into macro cycles (season) meso cycles (e.g. an 8 week block) and micro cycles (typically around 7 days). The microcycle in particular is pretty arbitrary, but making it about a week allows a structure that fits around work etc.
<...>

thank you for sharing. structured training is the most efficient way to get stronger, however sticking to the plan in real life is easier said than done.. i will do another chunk of long steady riding in italy in two weeks time (2200km) and after that be riding 75km local loop as fast as i can couple of times a week.

Have fun! FWIW I opted for the Miglia Italia. ;D :facepalm:

rob

Re: Base training
« Reply #214 on: 16 May, 2016, 05:10:20 pm »
100miles on the TT bike on Saturday keeping HR in the endurance zone.   Averaged 20.8mph so I think I'm somewhere where I need to be.

PB'd a 10 the following morning which was a bit hurty.   Maybe shouldn't have pushed that hard.   

I've reduced the time on the turbo and increased the long rides in the last few weeks and I have 3 100m TTs in the space of 4 weeks between the end of May and and 3rd week of June.

simonp

Re: Base training
« Reply #215 on: 16 May, 2016, 06:16:54 pm »
One difference between the way I've trained this year and previous years of riding lots of Auk events to build up.

The skin seems to be staying on my face.

 ::-)

Re: Base training
« Reply #216 on: 17 May, 2016, 08:54:20 am »


thanks for the advice simonp, i will be easing into intervals starting with the shorter and working my way up to 2x20. are there any recommended training plans available for "proper" endurance racing? i've done quite a lot of searching and most recommend doing longer intervals at or near ftp level.

re the pros and w/kg - i managed 6w/kg for three minutes by giving it all and felt light-headed for the rest of the day.. to do this for almost an hour  :o

I've not looked around much for other plans.

Training is generally structured into macro cycles (season) meso cycles (e.g. an 8 week block) and micro cycles (typically around 7 days). The microcycle in particular is pretty arbitrary, but making it about a week allows a structure that fits around work etc.
<...>

thank you for sharing. structured training is the most efficient way to get stronger, however sticking to the plan in real life is easier said than done.. i will do another chunk of long steady riding in italy in two weeks time (2200km) and after that be riding 75km local loop as fast as i can couple of times a week.

Is doing 'as fast as I can' rides twice a week TOO much??   ;)  Someone said this kind of thing was "pointless".

LMT

Re: Base training
« Reply #217 on: 17 May, 2016, 11:48:46 am »


thanks for the advice simonp, i will be easing into intervals starting with the shorter and working my way up to 2x20. are there any recommended training plans available for "proper" endurance racing? i've done quite a lot of searching and most recommend doing longer intervals at or near ftp level.

re the pros and w/kg - i managed 6w/kg for three minutes by giving it all and felt light-headed for the rest of the day.. to do this for almost an hour  :o

I've not looked around much for other plans.

Training is generally structured into macro cycles (season) meso cycles (e.g. an 8 week block) and micro cycles (typically around 7 days). The microcycle in particular is pretty arbitrary, but making it about a week allows a structure that fits around work etc.
<...>

thank you for sharing. structured training is the most efficient way to get stronger, however sticking to the plan in real life is easier said than done.. i will do another chunk of long steady riding in italy in two weeks time (2200km) and after that be riding 75km local loop as fast as i can couple of times a week.

Is doing 'as fast as I can' rides twice a week TOO much??   ;)  Someone said this kind of thing was "pointless".

Unless he's going at 75kph then the above won't qualify as a FTP test - don't confuse a FTP test with a high tempo ride.

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Base training
« Reply #218 on: 17 May, 2016, 11:51:56 am »


Unless he's going at 75kph then the above won't qualify as a FTP test - don't confuse a FTP test with a high tempo ride.

exactly, two very different things

simonp

Re: Base training
« Reply #219 on: 17 May, 2016, 01:16:34 pm »
I'm thinking about doing another FTP test soon. However it will be tough, to show improvement vs the test at BW I will have to average around 300W for 20 minutes.

Re: Base training
« Reply #220 on: 17 May, 2016, 01:17:12 pm »
It’s the “as fast as I can” that had me wondering.

simonp

Re: Base training
« Reply #221 on: 17 May, 2016, 01:31:05 pm »
I'd say go slower than that for aerobic fitness and do a short hard ride as well.

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Base training
« Reply #222 on: 17 May, 2016, 02:37:08 pm »
It’s the “as fast as I can” that had me wondering.
my local loop has quite a few traffic lights, roundabouts, blind corners, downhills etc where you have to stop or ease off, so even if pushing hard there is some time to recover.

simonp

Re: Base training
« Reply #223 on: 19 May, 2016, 11:25:17 pm »
Retested tonight 2x8 minute test. Boy it sucks. 276W. This is up from 259W in February - lower than the 280 tested using RQ. I suspect this method is more realistic. My HR hit 190 so I don't think I under tested.

I'm fucked.

Re: Base training
« Reply #224 on: 20 May, 2016, 05:56:05 am »
 :thumbsup: