Cold feet

[tom_e]

I think my rather unpleasant experience of frost nipped feet and other experiments only confirms what others have said already.  You ideally want a proper winter shoe, or at the least a shoe with extra space so you can fit in additional insoles or socks.  Trying to squeeze extra insulation into a normally fitted shoe just results in reduced circulation and so no improvement.  My own Shimano MT32s are awful for having very little insulation between the metal cleat and sole of foot.  Keeping the lower legs and body warm helps, but only up to a point.

[woollypigs]

What about battery power http://www.primrose.co.uk/heated-gloves-heated-socks-insoles-c-37_1263.html ?

[Kim]

My feet don't get cold, usually. Only in floodwaters. Which makes me suspect it's all about core temperature. You clearly haven't got enough Lard insulation.

I wish my lard would bloody insulate!  It mostly functions as a cold-store, to keep me freezing for hours after I stop.   

Agreed about core temperature.  I don't know about anyone else, but I reckon it's all too easy to overlook the amount of heat lost through the lungs.  Unfortunately, there isn't really anything you can do about that - I'm resigned to being rubbish in the cold.

[hellymedic]

Lungs do, indeed lose much heat. I suggested breathing through a scarf/buff somewhere. (Don't know if it was on this thread or Hypothermia in Health & Fitness, which is covering much of the same ground.)

[Wobbly]

I bought some battery-powered insole heaters from Maplin (half price for about fifteen quid I think) but have never used them as they make my shoes too tight. However I'll give them a bash when I've bought my extra-roomy boots. The advantage of the Maplin heaters is that they run off 3xAA batteries. God l knows for how long though.

I have to confess to being a little alarmed about the revelation over the amount of heat lost through the *lungs*. Is anyone actually advocating not breathing to conserve heat???

[Kim]

Lungs do, indeed lose much heat. I suggested breathing through a scarf/buff somewhere. (Don't know if it was on this thread or Hypothermia in Health & Fitness, which is covering much of the same ground.)

A piece of damp fabric isn't going to heat the air, though it may moisten it and keep your nose and cheeks warm, which helps.  In the absence of some sort of heat exchanger, you're always going to use a lot of energy to heating exhaled air in cold weather.


As for not breathing, it only keeps you warm in the short term   

[woollypigs]

As for not breathing, it only keeps you warm in the short term   

Just as it does when you p**s in your pants

[mattc]

This Unit endorses Northwave Fahrenheit and/or Celsius winter shoethings.  Toasty even on the bloody awful 2007 Chiltern-Cotswold.  IIRC Celsius are the two-bolt fitting jobs and Fahrenheit the three-bolt (Look compatible) version.

An other endorsement from me.
I've recently bought a pair of these (the Celsius Artic*) version and they've been excellent on the 2 winter 200k rides that I've done in them.

Well you two are talking about different shoes, but never mind ...

Celsius here - they ain't SUPER warm. Below say 5-6'c (and with medium thick socks, cos thick walking socks are a bit of a squeeze for me) I NEED overshoes even to stay just a little cold.
_{(And I've tried many brands of overshoes, now just use the warmest.)}


But definitely warmer than 'regular' cycling shoes (with overshoes)! If they weren't SOOO stupidly expensive I'd have also bought some 2 sizes bigger to stuff thick socks into. I REALLY shouldn't have believed the salesman 

[tonyh]

I'm pleased with these, for quick on and off (10 seconds is optimistic though!):

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/agu-bike-boots-quick-overshoes-prod27726/

and big enough to go over ordinary overshoes. Versatile enough to use without other overshoes too.

(Beware confusion with similar products from Agu.)

[LEE]

Well I'm going to try to find a pair of too-big-for-me-really cycling shoes before this weekend's Audax ride. However the weather forecast so far is for a positively tropical 8 or 9 Centigrade, so warm feet could be due to this mini-heatwave rather than the sage advice given here.

If you can live with a bit of sweatyness when it warms up, you should try Sealskinz socks and Shimano Winter boots.

You need roomy boots to accomodate them but I've not found a warmer, more wind-proof, combination.

As for riding recumbents, with soles of feet bearing the brunt of the wind, I'd say that was a case for thick (or double) thermal insoles (again, roomy boots required.)  Get some insulation between the cleat and your foot.  In winter your feet can be just a few mm away from a sub-zero chunk of steel.
Maybe adapt some neoprene toe-covers so the neoprene is on the sole-side.

At first I didn't realise this was a recumbent-based thread but I'd expect worse circulation to my toes on a recumbent.  Maybe even the effect of tight lycra on your legs will constrict blood-flow.

[BarryS]

For feet, having suffered for 20 years, current best solution is Northwave ARCTIC, which have an extra fluffy lining. Size a bit bigger than normal, wool socks, and crucially get the SPDs and actually get off from time to time to have a little walk before you loose sensation.

[Wobbly]

Well, I've been and bought a new pair of cycling shoes which are TWO SIZES too large thanks to you lot.

And they cost £85. That's Eighty Five Pounds. [weeps uncontrollably]

They had better solve the iceberg foot problem once and for all or there'll be trouble...

[Andrew Br]

This Unit endorses Northwave Fahrenheit and/or Celsius winter shoethings.  Toasty even on the bloody awful 2007 Chiltern-Cotswold.  IIRC Celsius are the two-bolt fitting jobs and Fahrenheit the three-bolt (Look compatible) version.

An other endorsement from me.
I've recently bought a pair of these (the Celsius Artic*) version and they've been excellent on the 2 winter 200k rides that I've done in them.

Well you two are talking about different shoes, but never mind ...

Celsius here - they ain't SUPER warm. Below say 5-6'c (and with medium thick socks, cos thick walking socks are a bit of a squeeze for me) I NEED overshoes even to stay just a little cold.
_{(And I've tried many brands of overshoes, now just use the warmest.)}

Well I tried to point out that the Artic version was the warmer one.

[Frank9755]

Well, I've been and bought a new pair of cycling shoes which are TWO SIZES too large thanks to you lot.

And they cost £85. That's Eighty Five Pounds. [weeps uncontrollably]

They had better solve the iceberg foot problem once and for all or there'll be trouble...

I don't think they will! 

At least not on their own, without an extra layer on top.

It's interesting skimming this thread as you can see that there are two groups of people: those who have ordinarily cold feet and do the normal, sensible things to keep them warm, and those who have circulation issues which mean that the normal things are not enough.  The way that you described your cold feet issue - and the fact that it is bad enough for you to start a thread on it - suggest that you may be in the second group. 

I've tried the larger boots for more socks and it does help but, for me - and others who have something of a Reynaud's disposition, the mechanism is that as soon as your core gets a little bit cold for only a minute or two, the arteries in the ankles (and wrists) just shut down.   And they don't re-open enough to allow feet to warm up again until you have been nice and warm for about 15 minutes.  The solution is being vigilant about keeping your core temperature up at all times.  It's not easy to do.  The danger time is when you first start and have not warmed up but wear only the right layers for when you will have warmed up ten minutes later.  The rest of you will be fine while you do warm up, but they won't be enough to prevent the artery shutdown. 

Good luck!

[Wobbly]

So, with my two-sizes-too-big shoes I set off on the Kennet Valley Run on Saturday.

The bad news is my feet were cold.
The good news is my feet weren't painfuly cold.
The bad news is the outside temperature was a bit warmer than of late, so my feet probably wouldn't have been so cold anyway despite the roomy shoes.
The good news is I could wiggle my feet more and that made them feel better.
The bad news is that after sunset the temperature plumetted and my feet were really, really f'kin cold.

[LEE]

So, with my two-sizes-too-big shoes I set off on the Kennet Valley Run on Saturday.

The bad news is my feet were cold.
The good news is my feet weren't painfuly cold.
The bad news is the outside temperature was a bit warmer than of late, so my feet probably wouldn't have been so cold anyway despite the roomy shoes.
The good news is I could wiggle my feet more and that made them feel better.
The bad news is that after sunset the temperature plumetted and my feet were really, really f'kin cold.

DHB Toe covers from Wiggle.  About £8.  every little helps.  Don't forget thermal insoles.

I made the mistake of not using toe-covers on Saturday and got cold feet.

[tom_e]

So, with my two-sizes-too-big shoes I set off on the Kennet Valley Run on Saturday.

The point of the oversized shoes is so that you can fit in fluffy insoles and woolly socks [whilst retaining good circulation].  Did you have anything extra in there, or just oversized shoes?

[Wobbly]

So, with my two-sizes-too-big shoes I set off on the Kennet Valley Run on Saturday.

The point of the oversized shoes is so that you can fit in fluffy insoles and woolly socks [whilst retaining good circulation].  Did you have anything extra in there, or just oversized shoes?

Nothing in there bar my usual cold weather Merino socks. If the next ride (two weeks time) is as cold then I'll definitely add either an extra pair of socks or some woolen insoles.

[Von Broad]

I wondered if it was waving one's feet at the wind chill but I'm warming to the circulation theory.

I have every intention of having another period of riding audax recliner style, and when I do I'm going to experiment with making some small carbon feet fairings that attach to one side of the spd pedals, leaving the other side only for the shoes to lock into.

I'd not be prepared to try anything else until this particular avenue has been explored. Surely, regardless of what you wear, boats shoes, socks or whatever, that wind chill hitting the underside of the foot has to be mitigated....somehow.

Depending in what style they're made, they could of course end up looking completely daft. Which is all the more reason.

[God, isn't it easy sitting at a keyboard saying "I'm going to do this and I'm gpoing to do that"!]

[mattc]

So, with my two-sizes-too-big shoes I set off on the Kennet Valley Run on Saturday.

The point of the oversized shoes is so that you can fit in fluffy insoles and woolly socks [whilst retaining good circulation].  Did you have anything extra in there, or just oversized shoes?

Nothing in there bar my usual cold weather Merino socks. If the next ride (two weeks time) is as cold then I'll definitely add either an extra pair of socks or some woolen insoles.

If you can ride 200k on a cold March day - just wearing the described - you are very much at the 'warm' end of the foot temperature distribution. Count yourself lucky

[Kim]

I wondered if it was waving one's feet at the wind chill but I'm warming to the circulation theory.

I have every intention of having another period of riding audax recliner style, and when I do I'm going to experiment with making some small carbon feet fairings that attach to one side of the spd pedals, leaving the other side only for the shoes to lock into.

Those clip-in plastic platforms that are occasionally supplied with M520 pedals to provide the legal reflectors would be a good start...

I'd not be prepared to try anything else until this particular avenue has been explored. Surely, regardless of what you wear, boats shoes, socks or whatever, that wind chill hitting the underside of the foot has to be mitigated....somehow.

Except wind chill doesn't affect (dry) shoes.  It's something that evaporatively-cooled humans suffer.  If the shoes aren't letting the wind in, they're acting as a fairing already.

I'm reasonably convinced that it is (for me at least) circulatory, given that  a) it's worse on a recumbent than an upright, given equivalent weather, clothing and effort levels  and  b) it happens on a stationary trike with no wind to speak of - I found that unclipping and putting my feet down made a real difference while waiting for people on group rides.

[Wobbly]

If you can ride 200k on a cold March day - just wearing the described - you are very much at the 'warm' end of the foot temperature distribution. Count yourself lucky

To be fair the Kennet Valley Run was on a mild day compared to my last few 200s. On some I've had to stop and take a break simply because my feet had gone beyond cold and were too painful to pedal.

Speaking of the KVRun you confused me by suddenly appearing at the Tutti Pole café in the morning and then failing to overtake me later on...

[mattc]

I'd not be prepared to try anything else until this particular avenue has been explored. Surely, regardless of what you wear, boats shoes, socks or whatever, that wind chill hitting the underside of the foot has to be mitigated....somehow.

Except wind chill doesn't affect (dry) shoes.  It's something that evaporatively-cooled humans suffer.  If the shoes aren't letting the wind in, they're acting as a fairing already.

I'd agree with this. I think people get a bit over-focused on windchill, and impermeable layers (I know people who wear 2 or more waterproofs to keep warm - and don't report great results!). I did a recent related experiment:

Plastic bags are a widely recognised trick for warding off cold feet. So I tried one - inside a winter boot, that also had thick neoprene overshoe outside. On the other foot? Identical, but no plastic bag.
Result? Both feet equally chilly (it was a near-zero Jan day, and both feet were chily, but nowhere near the no-feeling/painful stage)
So I think it takes very little to block the wind, and after that you want insulation. Which mean thick layers of non-conductive stuff, ideally with some trapped air (this bit is nothing new!).

[Von Broad]

I'd not be prepared to try anything else until this particular avenue has been explored. Surely, regardless of what you wear, boats shoes, socks or whatever, that wind chill hitting the underside of the foot has to be mitigated....somehow.

Except wind chill doesn't affect (dry) shoes.  It's something that evaporatively-cooled humans suffer.  If the shoes aren't letting the wind in, they're acting as a fairing already.

I'd agree with this. I think people get a bit over-focused on windchill, and impermeable layers (I know people who wear 2 or more waterproofs to keep warm - and don't report great results!). I did a recent related experiment:

Plastic bags are a widely recognised trick for warding off cold feet. So I tried one - inside a winter boot, that also had thick neoprene overshoe outside. On the other foot? Identical, but no plastic bag.
Result? Both feet equally chilly (it was a near-zero Jan day, and both feet were chily, but nowhere near the no-feeling/painful stage)
So I think it takes very little to block the wind, and after that you want insulation. Which mean thick layers of non-conductive stuff, ideally with some trapped air (this bit is nothing new!).

Sure, I know what you're both saying and I don't disagree. My circulation is also generally very poor. so there's no doubt that it plays a big part.

I still think though that to be attached to a cold metal pedal facing directly into the moving air with very little distance between that metal and the first point of contact to your feet is asking for trouble. You've got little room to put any insulation in there at all. As in all kinds of insulation, if you've got a weak point then it's long before the remaining is compromised. And insulation works just as well for cold as it does for heat.

What would be interesting [well not that interesting ] would be to try cycling with non-attached cycle shoes [or whatever shoes feel comfortable that don't require clipping in] for a change. I was thinking the other week while out with Manotea on on the LW, that riding a bent with clipless is a no-brainer, but for Audax on a DF I began asking why I still use them really? What benefit do I really get from spds on an upright? At my pace, what exactly is the point? I doubt I'd notice much difference in 'performance'! For upright riding, I'd certainly investigate trying other shoes to see how it felt, but for bents, I'm not inclined to entertain the thought...at all!

[Kim]

I still think though that to be attached to a cold metal pedal facing directly into the moving air with very little distance between that metal and the first point of contact to your feet is asking for trouble.

Yeah, but on waterproof winter boots (and to a lesser extent, SPD sandals) there's a substantial amount of shoe rubber between the cleat mounting plate and the insole.