Author Topic: To go tubeless or stay tubed.  (Read 26875 times)

Morat

  • I tried to HTFU but something went ping :(
Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #125 on: 29 January, 2021, 07:48:26 pm »
Thanks, I'll give a try. The tyres are Schwalbe G-One Allround 700c x 35. Definitely tubeless tyres. Rating on the tyre is 45-70 psi. Will go for over-inflation and shake first. I'll have to go out and buy some more sealant tomorrow if that doesn't work and perhaps call the shop I bought them from. Porous side walls is new one on me too. I have video of the train of bubbles coming from the side walls. No sign of any sealant at the bead.

Not wishing to offend but do the tyres definitely have TL on the side and not P? Because they can be indistinguishable on the shop sites IME.
Everyone's favourite windbreak

Davef

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #126 on: 29 January, 2021, 09:08:50 pm »
Further update: after doing what was suggested above, blowing them up to 90 psi, then giving them a good sloshing about before leaving them overnight seems to have done the trick in that they have only lost a few psi overnight - 85psi. These are Schwalbe tubeless easy tyres with relatively flexible sidewalls - they came folded up - so I guess that the tiny leaks may be normal.
I found this with schwalbe. They didn’t seem to keep pressure well so I got out a bowl of water to find the cause. They were loads of micro bubbles. Possibly the brand of sealant is more important. I am happier with conti 5000tl that air tight pre sealant.

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #127 on: 30 January, 2021, 01:44:09 pm »
Morat: definitely the right tyres. TLE on the sidewall.
Davef: OK, obviously not just me then. Schwalbe do say that these tyres don't have a butyl liner and need sealant to be airtight. I guess that makes the tyres lighter and easier to mount (which they were) but I don't have experience with other TL tyres.
Went out today for first proper ride on these tyres with roads wet, slushy, mushy and muddy. With pressures at 45psi, felt very stable and no slides or other moments.
I am often asked, what does YOAV stand for? It stands for Yoav On A Velo

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #128 on: 30 January, 2021, 02:14:22 pm »
Welcome to the advantages of tubeless  :thumbsup:

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #129 on: 26 February, 2021, 03:22:13 pm »
Just bought one of those Dynaplug things.

Pretty pricey for what it is but oh well, niche product and all that. Very small and light. Got a range of plugs and you can double them up for large holes.

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #130 on: 08 April, 2021, 04:07:25 pm »
Interesting moves in the pro scene wrt tubeless at the moment. 

Milan San Remo was won on tubeless tyres this year and there is growing adoption of them for Spring Classics. Vittoria have released a run-flat foam insert for tubeless that prevents tyre from rolling off should it fully deflate, so that really is the final advantage of tubular tyres gone. Tubeless are considered to have lower rolling resistance than tubular so we are probably going to see the impending death of tubular tyres and wheels. Glad I just sold mine.

That isn't to say that tyres and tubes will also die, because they won't,  but it could signal greater investment from manufacturers into developing tubeless technology that benefits those of us who do use it.  As it stands it is still something that requires a bit of knowledge, technique and committment to make it work well, and it is most definitely not idiot proof.

I foresee it taking off over the next few years.

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #131 on: 08 April, 2021, 05:03:58 pm »
And the 2021 Tour of Flanders was won on tubed clinchers. The fight isn't over yet!

https://cyclingtips.com/2021/04/the-tour-of-flanders-was-won-on-tubed-clinchers/

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #132 on: 08 April, 2021, 05:10:34 pm »
Blimey, that is quite surprising.  There was a bit of a trial a few years back of clinchers but it seemed to come to nothing, at least not for road racing rather than TT.

The fight isn't over yet!

Might be for tubs, though.  I sold mine recently thinking that their card was marked.  For pro team logistics  I would have thought that tubulars are a massive pain. Gluing takes fucking ages, and I don't suppose they mend their punctured tubs. 


Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #133 on: 08 April, 2021, 07:20:41 pm »
There’s an interesting click through to an article on Roval’s new wheelsets that are not tubeless compatible. It seems they’ve decided that they prefer to make lighter wheels than they could if they also had to deal with the higher compression that tubeless tyres exert on the rim. The Roval line is that they’ll give tubeless time to mature, but that they’ll be back!

It’s a fair point in that even wheels with very even and high tensions (1300N DS) can move slightly when a tubeless tyre is mounted, as a consequence of the spoke tension falling and (I suspect) rim non lines rotors at the joint for example. It’s not a problem, but is another thing to think about when building a set up. There again, I’m not building ultra light race wheels.

Overall, I’m sticking with tubeless. The safety and get you home benefits seem worthwhile to me, and they ride nicely. Appreciate my experience is good and I met a chap the other day who had really struggled, but when he described how he’d used sealant I understood - he hadn’t realised you can fill and top up the tyres through the valve core. He thought he needed to remove them to top up and, of course, that gets messy.

There is also a growing range of potentially lovely tyres to - I’ve a pair of Challenge Paris-Roubaix the waiting for the warm to arrive.

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #134 on: 08 April, 2021, 07:31:33 pm »
I have one set of Schwalbe tubs for my TT bike. They've done a total of 17 miles, and may never turn again as I doubt I'll ever do another TT. I am pretty much sold on tubeless, but I have a lot of bikes so the change is gradual! It was interesting to read about the Specialized/Roval preference for tubed, and I too clicked through to the explanation. I guess they're going about it a different way from others, but I think even they accept that tubeless is the future.

I'm old enough to remember tubed car tyres. It's only taken, what, 50 years to come round to bikes?

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #135 on: 08 April, 2021, 07:34:09 pm »
I have one set of Schwalbe tubs for my TT bike. They've done a total of 17 miles, and may never turn again as I doubt I'll ever do another TT. I am pretty much sold on tubeless, but I have a lot of bikes so the change is gradual! It was interesting to read about the Specialized/Roval preference for tubed, and I too clicked through to the explanation. I guess they're going about it a different way from others, but I think even they accept that tubeless is the future.

I'm old enough to remember tubed car tyres. It's only taken, what, 50 years to come round to bikes?

Indeed, a blowout was a constant fear for those of us that used to run old rusty tubed car tyres. I’ve had similar with latex tubed bike tyres. Hence my preference for tubeless.

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #136 on: 08 April, 2021, 07:40:11 pm »
Appreciate my experience is good and I met a chap the other day who had really struggled, but when he described how he’d used sealant I understood - he hadn’t realised you can fill and top up the tyres through the valve core. He thought he needed to remove them to top up and, of course, that gets messy.

This is the thing, when you hear other people's negative experiences (of anything) you have to account for the possibility that they might not know what they are doing, and their lack of knowledge might be the actual problem rather than the product.  I suppose with increased uptake you might get a better sharing of knowledge and perhaps development of products that are even friendlier to use. I wouldn't say that tubeless is a dark art, but as we have said before there is a learning curve and it doesn't end with the mounting of the tyre.

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #137 on: 10 April, 2021, 06:25:35 pm »
I had a p*ncture today irritatingly close to home, but too far to walk. As I replaced the tube, I was constantly mumbling "I'm going fucking tubeless" much to the bemusement of passers by. So just like every time I get a flat, when I got home I started Googling tubeless tyres. My intitial reaction (as always) was "How the fuck much?!" followed by general confusion about what tape, sealant and valves I would need.

Anyway, I think I'm closer than ever to biting the bullet, but I'm still confused.

I only have one bike with suitable wheels for tubeless (all the others would need new wheels, so I'm more inclined to wait until I feel I've got a decent life out them before replacing). The wheels in question have Pacenti SL25 rims. As I understand it these are "Tubeless ready".

So are all sealants, tape and valves made equal? Would the Stans No Tubes kit be the way to go or are there better alternatives?

I seem to remember reading that you can't use CO2 to inflate as the sealant doesn't like it, but some sealant is ok with it (latex free perhaps?). I don't mind buying an Airshot pump thing if that's what I need. Oh and a valve core remover if one is required?

As for tyres, well - I'd prefer a pair that aren't more expensive than 4 new tyres for my car as many seem to be!

Any suggestions?
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #138 on: 10 April, 2021, 06:58:03 pm »
Rim tape: I use Tesa tape off ebay. It's hugely cheaper and works just as well. Just measure the inner width of rim and  add 1-2mm to rim width.


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tesa-Tape-4289-Tubes-Tubeless-Rim-Tape-19mm-and-25mm-wide-x-66-meters-long-/164039188126?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286


Valves: Cheap ones seem to work as well as expensive ones IME.  I prefer the ones with rectangular blocks if the rim is narrow. But Stans valves are good.

Valve core remover. These cost nothing. Could make one even.

Sealant: DO NOT use Finish Line. It's shit. All the others work. Stans is fine and they make many of the other brands. I like OrangeSeal Endurance

Sealant Injector: Worth having for Topping up. Saves having to unhook tyre then reseat.

Trackpump: Might get away with just this if you use tight tyres like Hutchinson Fusion 5

Airshot: ^ if not using tight tyres.

Tyres: Depends entirely what you want, racy, durable etc... give us a clue.

And the most useful thing? A small bowl of water with a good squirt of Fairy liquid in it and foam washing up pad to wipe on beads before mounting. ESSENTIAL

HTH.

Soujournmike is a good source of info on TL. I'm sure he'll find his way here. 

Puncture kit: Dynaplug Racer in case of unsealable hole (don't bother with anything else) spare tube in case it doesn't work, tiny pliers to get valve out in case of over-tightening


Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #139 on: 10 April, 2021, 07:18:41 pm »
Cheers!

I'd be happy with a tyre somewhere in the middle performance wise. This bike only really gets used from April to October. Although TBH, that's more down to previous tyre choices.

I quite like the idea of Hutchinson tyres as they seem reasonably priced.

Does it have to be Fairy Liquid or will Sainsbury's own brand do?  :P
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #140 on: 10 April, 2021, 07:21:08 pm »
Hutchinson Sector are bombproof but skiddy in wet unless you run them pretty low.

Hutchinson Fusion 5 Storm seem good so far.

Hutchinson manufacture Pirelli and Mavic tyres.

Schwalbe One are great but fragile. You used to be able to pick them up cheap but those days are over.

jiberjaber

  • ... Fancy Pants \o/ ...
  • ACME S&M^2
Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #141 on: 10 April, 2021, 07:41:11 pm »
Cheers!

I'd be happy with a tyre somewhere in the middle performance wise. This bike only really gets used from April to October. Although TBH, that's more down to previous tyre choices.

I quite like the idea of Hutchinson tyres as they seem reasonably priced.

Does it have to be Fairy Liquid or will Sainsbury's own brand do?  :P

If you get stuck, I've got an airshot if you need to pop over - makes things a lot easier (esp when refitting tyres after swapping for something else).   I think Sister Carlos has ran tubeless on his bacon rims.
I've quite liking the planetX sealant at the moment, seems to be hassle free so far and quite good value.

https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/WSOKOMMHF/oko-magic-milk-hi-fibre-tyre-sealant
Regards,

Joergen

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #142 on: 10 April, 2021, 07:43:54 pm »
For valves, I have been using the Milkit system.

These have a second flapper valve deeper inside them, so you can remove the valve core and insert the syringe into the tyre without fully de-pressurising it.
You can leave say 10 psi in the tyre and sook out old sealant and add new without un-seating or re-seating the tyre or any such nonsense.

Milkit sealant too.

I also bought a joe blow pump with a built-in air reservoir which you pump up to 160 psi then dump into the tyre, to seat it.
This works well.

For the tyres on my gravel bike, it took several attempts to seat them.
Lube. Lots of lube. ( generic washing up liquid ).

This was on the advice of a local bike mechanic on a bike club webinar which was arranged over lockdown.
I've no experience of other systems.


Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #143 on: 10 April, 2021, 07:46:56 pm »
Cheers!

I'd be happy with a tyre somewhere in the middle performance wise. This bike only really gets used from April to October. Although TBH, that's more down to previous tyre choices.

I quite like the idea of Hutchinson tyres as they seem reasonably priced.

Does it have to be Fairy Liquid or will Sainsbury's own brand do?  :P

If you get stuck, I've got an airshot if you need to pop over - makes things a lot easier (esp when refitting tyres after swapping for something else).   I think Sister Carlos has ran tubeless on his bacon rims.
I've quite liking the planetX sealant at the moment, seems to be hassle free so far and quite good value.

https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/WSOKOMMHF/oko-magic-milk-hi-fibre-tyre-sealant


Ta! If I go ahead, I may well have to drop by.

I remember Carlos saying something about his Pacenti rims being corroded by the sealant (or something), but there doesn't appear to be anyone else on the entire internet who has had that problem!

Seeing as you need to top up now and again, can you mix sealants, or should you always stick to the same brand/type?
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #144 on: 10 April, 2021, 07:48:32 pm »
For valves, I have been using the Milkit system.

These have a second flapper valve deeper inside them, so you can remove the valve core and insert the syringe into the tyre without fully de-pressurising it.
You can leave say 10 psi in the tyre and sook out old sealant and add new without un-seating or re-seating the tyre or any such nonsense.

Milkit sealant too.

I also bought a joe blow pump with a built-in air reservoir which you pump up to 160 psi then dump into the tyre, to seat it.
This works well.

For the tyres on my gravel bike, it took several attempts to seat them.
Lube. Lots of lube. ( generic washing up liquid ).

This was on the advice of a local bike mechanic on a bike club webinar which was arranged over lockdown.
I've no experience of other systems.



Cheers, Milkit turned up in my Googling. Looks good...
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #145 on: 10 April, 2021, 08:12:30 pm »

Seeing as you need to top up now and again, can you mix sealants, or should you always stick to the same brand/type?

I've never had issues mixing. Just top up every 3 months or if  you've had a big jizzy puncture.


jiberjaber

  • ... Fancy Pants \o/ ...
  • ACME S&M^2
Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #146 on: 10 April, 2021, 08:54:33 pm »
For valves, I have been using the Milkit system.

These have a second flapper valve deeper inside them, so you can remove the valve core and insert the syringe into the tyre without fully de-pressurising it.
You can leave say 10 psi in the tyre and sook out old sealant and add new without un-seating or re-seating the tyre or any such nonsense.

Milkit sealant too.

I also bought a joe blow pump with a built-in air reservoir which you pump up to 160 psi then dump into the tyre, to seat it.
This works well.

For the tyres on my gravel bike, it took several attempts to seat them.
Lube. Lots of lube. ( generic washing up liquid ).

This was on the advice of a local bike mechanic on a bike club webinar which was arranged over lockdown.
I've no experience of other systems.



Cheers, Milkit turned up in my Googling. Looks good...
I've had no luck with Milkit valves and ditched them, you can fill through a normal valve with (mostly) no issues. My Milkit valves always fell apart internally, there's a stick on the end of the valve that opens the vale stem end, it never stayed on, I went through about 5 valves before giving it up as a bad thing.
Only thing I did keep from it all was the syringe.
The valve inserts are generally consumable and will eventually gum up and let less air through, you can keep cleaning them but eventually they don't let enough air through and need replacing. I think it was this gumming up that led to the stem detaching on mine.
Regards,

Joergen

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #147 on: 10 April, 2021, 08:58:43 pm »
You can buy valve inserts for fuck all, and by that I mean pence. I get them on ebay in bags of 10 then I replace mine at least yearly if not sooner because I mangle them with inappropriate tools. It's one of those things where it isn't worth penny pinching. The slightest issue and the fucker comes out.

jiberjaber

  • ... Fancy Pants \o/ ...
  • ACME S&M^2
Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #148 on: 10 April, 2021, 09:17:22 pm »
Yep, same ere...
Regards,

Joergen

Davef

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #149 on: 10 April, 2021, 09:26:55 pm »
One day I am going to harvest the valve cores from the mound of inner tubes that I never summoned up the enthusiasm to patch. One day.