Author Topic: If there is smoke there is fire - smokeless fuel?  (Read 9152 times)

woollypigs

  • Mr Peli
    • woollypigs
If there is smoke there is fire - smokeless fuel?
« on: 20 October, 2013, 11:44:30 am »
We got a nice fireplace in the kitchen and the previous owner said that she had open fires.

I know what where we live is a smokeless zone, though a few times over that last weeks I have smelled and seen smoke in the streets around our house.

What is the best smokeless fuel to look out for, I just normal start a fire, never think about the smoke. And how long would say a 25Kg bag last if you only light up at night.

So come on babyyacf light my fire and help me to control my inner pyromaniac so that we don't become homeless this winter :)

Current mood: AARRRGGGGHHHHH !!! #bollockstobrexit

Re: If there is smoke there is fire - smokeless fuel?
« Reply #1 on: 20 October, 2013, 03:48:43 pm »
Are you wanting to use the fire as actual heat, or essentially as an ornament that happens to be hot? And, how often are you planning to use it - every night, or three times a year when Great Aunt Ethel visits?

My extremely limited experience of smokeless fuel is that it's a fair bit less satisfactory than either proper coal or dry wood - not as attractive to look at as it burns, and not as hot, as well as being more expensive than coal.

Unless you're using it as regular heating, you're unlikely to use enough to make deliveries worthwhile except maybe from a local retailer, so your choice is likely to be limited to what's available locally at petrol stations or hardware shops - I suspect that the different brands are much of a muchness.

The odds are very high that if you're only using the fire occasionally, you will never be challenged if you use coal and/or dry logs, and that's probably what I would be inclined to do. Given that the idea of smokeless zones goes back to the Clean Air Acts of the 50s and 60s when there were far more domestic open fires than there are now (not to mention industrial air pollution), that's not nearly as anti-social as it probably sounds.

(As for usage - really don't know. Three or four nights out of a bag unless you're being a real pyro?)

Re: If there is smoke there is fire - smokeless fuel?
« Reply #2 on: 20 October, 2013, 04:07:08 pm »
Again, I don't think you will be pulled up for using any fuel, but there is benefit in smokeless - it causes less deposits in the chimney, wood (I think) is worst.

You can get a good fire going with smokeless, and it tends to burn with less spitting. I start it off with kindling chopped from old pallets, single match gets it going. Also, buy fuel from a fuel supplier (there won't be many, but they are worth seeking out) rather than a garage or DIY shop. As far as bags are concerned - how big? The 25Kg ones I get from a fuel supplier last longer than the 10kg from the garage ;) Another tip - keep a few bags in stock, keep them in the dry and slit the plastic side to side as soon as you get it, This will let the fuel dry, as they are mostly damp.

I'd reckon on a blazing fire costing about £5 a night.

Enjoy.


woollypigs

  • Mr Peli
    • woollypigs
Re: If there is smoke there is fire - smokeless fuel?
« Reply #3 on: 20 October, 2013, 04:51:05 pm »
I think that we will have it going now and again since we do have a good central heating. We need to see/feel how well it heats the house first before we figure out how much we need it. We tend to put on jumpers and a blanket instead of turning on the heating when we get cold.

From what Peli tells me the local council are coming down hard on smoke, so we better us smokeless fuel.
Current mood: AARRRGGGGHHHHH !!! #bollockstobrexit

Re: If there is smoke there is fire - smokeless fuel?
« Reply #4 on: 20 October, 2013, 06:18:06 pm »
Anthracite coal is a natural smokeless fuel.  Coke also - in fact it was the first smokeless fuel and burns VERY hot, but may not be easy to get. There are around a dozen "manufactured" smokeless fuels.

http://www.solidfuel.co.uk/frame/main.html
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: If there is smoke there is fire - smokeless fuel?
« Reply #5 on: 20 October, 2013, 09:14:27 pm »
I burn wood (collected, e.g. dead wood from the local cemetery) whenever I feel like it, mostly for pleasure, occasionally for a little supplemental heating in our bedroom. Never been challenged. As noted, dry wood doesn't emit much smoke (this is implicit in what our council says: "Outside a Smoke Control Area, logs should be dry to minimise smoke"), & given the few usable fireplaces left in most smoke control areas, I suspect active enforcement is probably fairly light.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

Wowbagger

  • Stout dipper
    • Stuff mostly about weather
Re: If there is smoke there is fire - smokeless fuel?
« Reply #6 on: 20 October, 2013, 09:33:51 pm »
I would be inclined to have smokeless fuel in at all times, but also to gather the occasional log when out walking or cycling.

How can a local authority prove that you are using a non-approved fuel if you've got the approved fuel in the house? I can't imagine them climbing up the chimney, and the presence of wood ash in the grate could be kindling. Indeed, the old "smokeless zones" were designed in another era. Burning wood is much better for the environment than burning coal or its derivatives.
Quote from: Dez
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Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: If there is smoke there is fire - smokeless fuel?
« Reply #7 on: 20 October, 2013, 10:49:22 pm »
Burning wood is much better for the environment than burning coal or its derivatives.

In the grand scheme of things sure, but not necessarily on a local level (I'm sure smokeless fuel gives off less particulates than wood).  It's like saying that the atmosphere needs more ozone...

Wowbagger

  • Stout dipper
    • Stuff mostly about weather
Re: If there is smoke there is fire - smokeless fuel?
« Reply #8 on: 21 October, 2013, 12:14:58 am »
Burning wood is much better for the environment than burning coal or its derivatives.

In the grand scheme of things sure, but not necessarily on a local level (I'm sure smokeless fuel gives off less particulates than wood).  It's like saying that the atmosphere needs more ozone...

Well, in the sense that wood is already part of the carbon cycle but coal hasn't been for quite a few million years.
Quote from: Dez
It doesn’t matter where you start. Just start.

Re: If there is smoke there is fire - smokeless fuel?
« Reply #9 on: 21 October, 2013, 12:30:15 am »
A friend of ours burns logs in a Greater London smokeless zone and claims the relevant regs don't reference wood.

Re: If there is smoke there is fire - smokeless fuel?
« Reply #10 on: 21 October, 2013, 02:43:17 am »
Well, in the sense that the regs neither specifically authorise nor ban wood, your friend is right.
 
They contain a presumably non-exhaustive list of 'inherently smokeless' fuels - includes gas and electricity(!), but more usefully things like anthracite, as well as a very specific list of authorised smokeless fuels, with brandnames and everything ...

I'm guessing that the test of whether or not your friend's wood is legal is whether or not it produces any smoke (unless the logs are going into an exempt appliance - again, there's a long list of stoves, woodburners, Jamie Oliver pizza ovens ...) - while the test of whether or not it's OK is whether or not he gets caught.

Re: If there is smoke there is fire - smokeless fuel?
« Reply #11 on: 21 October, 2013, 07:50:20 am »
You can get a log burning stove that is HETAS approved for burning wood in smokeless zones.
Our Dunsley Yorkshire is (as it happens we don't live in a smokeless area) but its a big thing and you would probably want one of their smaller HETAS approved ones.
I suspect some of the other big manufacturers do similar products. Dunsley do it by re-burning the smoke before it goes up the chimney. This also makes the stove more efficient. Note stoves use a lot less fuel for the same amount of heat than an open fire anyway.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Re: If there is smoke there is fire - smokeless fuel?
« Reply #12 on: 21 October, 2013, 08:26:23 am »
The odd person here and there with an open fire is not going to produce the kind of smog that killed people in the 50s, which was the reason for bringing in the smokeless zones in the first place. However, there are people who are extremely sensitive to sulphur from burning coal - wood might be a better option? You could also consider getting a gas "living flame" style insert - they can be made to size for existing grates and are not enormously expensive compared to a couple of winters' worth of solid fuel.
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

woollypigs

  • Mr Peli
    • woollypigs
Re: If there is smoke there is fire - smokeless fuel?
« Reply #13 on: 21 October, 2013, 09:03:52 am »
We got a gas living flame onto fake coal in the living room, which works pretty well. Well it hasen't been really cold yet so we don't know how it does on a brrrr day.

The previous owner did say that she burned wood and normal coal in the kitchen fire place. We would like to be within the law, can happily live without the hassle of getting done.
Current mood: AARRRGGGGHHHHH !!! #bollockstobrexit

Re: If there is smoke there is fire - smokeless fuel?
« Reply #14 on: 21 October, 2013, 09:32:34 am »
I'd rather not commit an offence if I can help it (especially as we are known by many local councillors - OK, from a neighbouring borough, but even so!). Plus, we live in a very tightly-packed area of terraces and I can definitely feel it in my lungs when people have been breaking the rules, so I'd rather not contribute to that.

The relevant regulations on our council's website are here and the list of permitted fuels here.

I think we'll have to save up for a wood-burning stove of the type pcolbeck describes.

Re: If there is smoke there is fire - smokeless fuel?
« Reply #15 on: 21 October, 2013, 10:02:56 am »
I bought a woodburner* off of ebay (seller, stoveworld90)with flue etc, all in about £500, and fitted it myself. Fitted into a standard fireplace which I knocked out.



No idea idea if it's HETAS approved, probably not.  However the smoke that comes out the chimney is negligible compared to when we just had the open fire.

It kicks out a much more even heat, uses loads less fuel, and I can burn pallets, which for me are entirely free, if you exclude the fuel for chain sawing them up.


*The finish of the blacking wasn't great and soon came off.  I resprayed it this year with some better paint, and it looks brilliant.  If I put it in again I'd do this before fitting it.

"Il veut moins de riches, moi je veux moins de pauvres"

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: If there is smoke there is fire - smokeless fuel?
« Reply #16 on: 21 October, 2013, 10:42:22 am »
We would like to be within the law...
I'd rather not commit an offence if I can help it (especially as we are known by many local councillors - OK, from a neighbouring borough, but even so!). Plus, we live in a very tightly-packed area of terraces and I can definitely feel it in my lungs when people have been breaking the rules, so I'd rather not contribute to that. 

For whatever the reason, this is laudable, rather than just doing what you can get away with.  I'm sick of that attitude, and I wish more people were like you.
Getting there...

Re: If there is smoke there is fire - smokeless fuel?
« Reply #17 on: 21 October, 2013, 10:48:38 am »
Thanks, clarion.

Re: If there is smoke there is fire - smokeless fuel?
« Reply #18 on: 21 October, 2013, 11:39:15 pm »
... this is laudable, rather than just doing what you can get away with.  I'm sick of that attitude, and I wish more people were like you.

While I share your dislike of people just doing what they can get away with in lieu of behaving properly, I think it's worth drawing a distinction between doing things that are wrong (ethically, morally, whatever ...) and things that are simply against the law. Obviously there is considerable overlap, but where the purpose of legislation has been served or the circumstances which led to it have changed, then there may not necessarily be anything wrong with taking actions that it forbids.

(Yes, this is probably dangerously close to ABD territory, and the question of whether or not 71mph on a dry, clear motorway is actually a mortal sin.)

urban_biker

  • " . . .we all ended up here and like lads in the back of a Nova we sort of egged each other on...."
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Re: If there is smoke there is fire - smokeless fuel?
« Reply #19 on: 22 October, 2013, 08:46:05 am »
You can get a log burning stove that is HETAS approved for burning wood in smokeless zones.
Our Dunsley Yorkshire is (as it happens we don't live in a smokeless area) but its a big thing and you would probably want one of their smaller HETAS approved ones.
I suspect some of the other big manufacturers do similar products. Dunsley do it by re-burning the smoke before it goes up the chimney. This also makes the stove more efficient. Note stoves use a lot less fuel for the same amount of heat than an open fire anyway.


Its Defra that approve stoves for smokeless zones. HETAS are the people who ensure installers are legit - like gas safe.

I know because I have a woodburning stove sat in my garage waiting for an install in November.
Owner of a languishing Langster

tiermat

  • According to Jane, I'm a Unisex SpaceAdmin
Re: If there is smoke there is fire - smokeless fuel?
« Reply #20 on: 23 October, 2013, 12:59:44 pm »
I would just echo what Ham said, find your local coal merchant (http://www.sidingsfuels.co.uk/) and drive down to see them.  Chances are they will have the normal, open bags of coal/anthracite etc, but also smaller, sealed bags (25Kg and 10Kg).  These will be cheaper than from the DIY shop/garden centre/garage.  They will also be able, usually, to advise you on what is best to burn in your location.
I feel like Captain Kirk, on a brand new planet every day, a little like King Kong on top of the Empire State

Re: If there is smoke there is fire - smokeless fuel?
« Reply #21 on: 26 October, 2013, 12:00:41 am »
You can get a log burning stove that is HETAS approved for burning wood in smokeless zones.
Our Dunsley Yorkshire is (as it happens we don't live in a smokeless area) but its a big thing and you would probably want one of their smaller HETAS approved ones.
I suspect some of the other big manufacturers do similar products. Dunsley do it by re-burning the smoke before it goes up the chimney. This also makes the stove more efficient. Note stoves use a lot less fuel for the same amount of heat than an open fire anyway.


Its Defra that approve stoves for smokeless zones. HETAS are the people who ensure installers are legit - like gas safe.

I know because I have a woodburning stove sat in my garage waiting for an install in November.

Oops your right my bad.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.