In answer to thre actual question, they stop where they are and can’t be moved. This can be either better or worse than a mechanical system (which dump you on the highest rear sprocket), depending on where it stops.
Isn't there a diagnostics mode where you can frob the rear mech into a suitable position for your chosen sprocket and then leave it there? Sure I saw a ride report in another place where someone had done that (or maybe I misremember and they were bemoaning the lack of said mode...)
Some years ago, a rider on the Exmouth Exodus (a ride with weather that's like the Star Trek movies; only the even numbered ones are good) had problems where water got into something and the system shifted to the smallest sprocket and then sulked.
Isn't there a diagnostics mode where you can frob the rear mech into a suitable position for your chosen sprocket and then leave it there? Sure I saw a ride report in another place where someone had done that (or maybe I misremember and they were bemoaning the lack of said mode...)
That sounds an awful lot like normal shifting mode! If you’ve still got battery power and working comms then you don’t need a special mode to move the mechs. What it lacks is any way to move the mechs after either of those things fail.
one rider had to abandon the tcr as the rear mech's cable disconnected inside the frame (wasn't properly inserted?) which necessitated removal of bb30 bb, and with no bike shops open this was kinda showstopper. usually di2 works fine, but when it doesn't it can be a real pain to fix.That is more a problem of poor access to mission critical components; it could have happened with some mechanical gear cabling (or indeed brake or light cabling which would have been much more of a showstopper. Hard to singlespeed your brakes!). This is why I have always been unhappy about a lot of internal routing. Di2 wiring may be more fragile; this is not necessarily a showstopper with a decent approach to installation. Note I am still not a fan of bike electronics and am well capable of killing bike computers with a single glance.
Final issue was earlier this week, the battery on a bike went from 100% to 50% in 30 km. Quite alarming as I’m planning a 400km perm this week.
All these systems have their pros / cons to weigh up when deciding what's right and I can't remember the last time I saw a thread entitled "In praise of $type gear shifting system" :thumbsup:
I've had serious issues with mechanical cabling on Paris-Brest-Paris. Cable broke inside right shifter. Could not remove the cable....
I've had serious issues with mechanical cabling on Paris-Brest-Paris. Cable broke inside right shifter. Could not remove the cable....
that is arguably just poor maintenance.
Di2 is a mass market product, not a niche device for the 0.0000001% of cyclists who ride PBP or LEL. However, if you are prepared to accept the possibility of non-roadside repairability and that you have to charge a battery every 1000 miles then you have an otherwise maintenance free system...
...that is a delight to use not least because it require little physical effort.
To my surprise, one of the most annoyingly fatigued parts of my body on a hilly 1000k was my hands from constantly operating the 'positive' action of Campag ergos.
I've had serious issues with mechanical cabling on Paris-Brest-Paris. Cable broke inside right shifter. Could not remove the cable....
that is arguably just poor maintenance.
Or insufficient paranoia.
Don't buy it then.
Simples.
Are we back to DownTube Shifters?? (which I find take less effort than either my Shimano or Campag integrated shifters).Quote...that is a delight to use not least because it require little physical effort.
To my surprise, one of the most annoyingly fatigued parts of my body on a hilly 1000k was my hands from constantly operating the 'positive' action of Campag ergos.
I think that's one of the best reasons to use it. I like MTB thumb shifters, but I do get thumb pain from their prolonged use. Avoidable with different types of shifter, but they have other compromises.
The lack of somewhere to shove an allen key and twiddle it to your single-speed gear of choice seems like a serious omission.
The obvious answer is to go fixed wheel.
A freewheel is too much risk, what if the pawls stuck?
.
Let's say my right shifter failed with Di2. I'd use the Shimano app to reconfigure the left shifter to do everything.
Is that serious? Can you actually do that? If so, how?
Is that serious? Can you actually do that? If so, how?
If you have a Di2 Bluetooth module somewhere on your bike you can use the phone app to assign any button to any function. And with the newest firmware the front mech can be shifted automatically from the rear mech buttons, so you only need two working buttons to control everything.
Which is another way of saying that what the pros ride is largely irrelevant to most cyclists.
Is that serious? Can you actually do that? If so, how?
If you have a Di2 Bluetooth module somewhere on your bike you can use the phone app to assign any button to any function. And with the newest firmware the front mech can be shifted automatically from the rear mech buttons, so you only need two working buttons to control everything.
The latest generations of Dura-Ace and Ultegra Di2 have this built in. Older Di2 can be upgraded with the new battery to add this function.
Is that serious? Can you actually do that? If so, how?
If you have a Di2 Bluetooth module somewhere on your bike you can use the phone app to assign any button to any function. And with the newest firmware the front mech can be shifted automatically from the rear mech buttons, so you only need two working buttons to control everything.
The latest generations of Dura-Ace and Ultegra Di2 have this built in. Older Di2 can be upgraded with the new battery to add this function.
I have R8070 Ultegra Di2 and it didn't come with the Bluetooth/ANT+ module. But this is just a small device (I was surprised how small) that can be placed anywhere in the system. You just need an additional e-tube wire and the nodule. Mine is next to the head tube before the wiring disappears inside the frame.
You can't have multiple indexed shifters for the same set of gears with mechanical cables.
It may not be long before Garmin, Shimano, or someone else launches a standard wiring loom for bicycles with one centralised battery powering the GPS computer, derailleurs, nine shift buttons, power meter, DRLs, night lamps, plug-in video cameras, mobile phone charger, and all the other gizmos that cyclists increasingly cannot do without.
It may not be long before Garmin, Shimano, or someone else launches a standard wiring loom for bicycles with one centralised battery powering the GPS computer, derailleurs, nine shift buttons, power meter, DRLs, night lamps, plug-in video cameras, mobile phone charger, and all the other gizmos that cyclists increasingly cannot do without.
Specifically designed such that one flat battery means everything stops working...
One thing that surprises me about di2, is that the charger is needed. Rather than just have a micro USB socket on the a junction box. There is a box of tricks that has a USB input and a proprietary input... most riders these days are carrying charging capability for various USB based devices (phone, wahoo, many lights etc...). But shimano have this extra box that is ended between the USB stuff and the di2. Feels like short sighted design...
It may not be long before Garmin, Shimano, or someone else launches a standard wiring loom for bicycles with one centralised battery powering the GPS computer, derailleurs, nine shift buttons, power meter, DRLs, night lamps, plug-in video cameras, mobile phone charger, and all the other gizmos that cyclists increasingly cannot do without.
Specifically designed such that one flat battery means everything stops working...
One thing that surprises me about di2, is that the charger is needed. Rather than just have a micro USB socket on the a junction box. There is a box of tricks that has a USB input and a proprietary input... most riders these days are carrying charging capability for various USB based devices (phone, wahoo, many lights etc...). But shimano have this extra box that is ended between the USB stuff and the di2. Feels like short sighted design...
J
It may not be long before Garmin, Shimano, or someone else launches a standard wiring loom for bicycles with one centralised battery powering the GPS computer, derailleurs, nine shift buttons, power meter, DRLs, night lamps, plug-in video cameras, mobile phone charger, and all the other gizmos that cyclists increasingly cannot do without.Have the whole lot powered off a dynamo with battery back up as needed (as per standlights) and it sounds a very good idea.
To me, it represents the exact antithesis of the sort of technology that ought to be incorporated into a simple machine such as a bicycle.
To me, it represents the exact antithesis of the sort of technology that ought to be incorporated into a simple machine such as a bicycle.
Snap.
To me, it represents the exact antithesis of the sort of technology that ought to be incorporated into a simple machine such as a bicycle.
Snap.
To me, it represents the exact antithesis of the sort of technology that ought to be incorporated into a simple machine such as a bicycle.
Snap.
So where do you draw the line? How do you define simple?....
a definition of 'simple' that is, er, simple, is that when part of your bike stops working in a few year's time, (or right now in the back of beyond), you don't have to throw most of the bike away because you can't fix it or get spare parts for it.
Designing ever-more complicated products with ever-shorter lifetimes in pursuit of largely imaginary benefits is in good part symptomatic of the mindset that is busy killing the planet.
A Bicycle is at heart a simple machine; so-called progress is turning the average bicycle into just another 'consumer durable'; not that durable, only there to be consumed.
cheers
To me, it represents the exact antithesis of the sort of technology that ought to be incorporated into a simple machine such as a bicycle.
Snap.
So where do you draw the line? How do you define simple?....
a definition of 'simple' that is, er, simple, is that when part of your bike stops working in a few year's time, (or right now in the back of beyond), you don't have to throw most of the bike away because you can't fix it or get spare parts for it.
It should be a given that an object like a bicycle should be durable and recyclable; instead of worrying about a partial recycle after a 'product life' of five years or less one should be aiming for a product life many times greater than that and a more complete recycling that isn't so energy intensive.
Thing is, how is that different from non electric? If a tiagra 4600 series part fails, it's going to become increasingly hard to find replacement parts, tiagra 4700 is incompatible with 4600... the same is true a cross groups etc and brands at all points in the price range. I have a Calton touring bike in my stable that is older than me It needs a new rear hub. It's hard to find one that is compatible these days..it's a 126mm oln hub with 5 speed block. Bikes change, tech changes. I admit it's bloody infuriating that there's a lot of incompatibility within bike components. But that's not made any worse by electronic shifting.Quote
There are valid concerns to be had regarding how long shimano will support these parts, how long they will remain compatible with themselves, and the options for bodging things in the event of a mishap to get to the next option for repair. But they are things which can be balanced out by features like greater flexibility. Its horses for courses, and ultimately no one will forces you to use kit you're not happy with.
J
126mm freewheel hubs are not a problem, Zenith make them, I almost bought a set when I wanted l/f hubs like that for my tourer. (But who would buy stuff like that when you can have Di2 would be the Shimano arguement)
Ultimately no-one forces you to use kit you're not happy with - except that they are not proposing an alternative! Fortunately the older kit keeps working, which is why I am using a lot of kit that is 30+yrs old and still going. But the choice is limited - where am I going to find a replacement 7s 14-32 cassette (not freewheel note) for Coline's mtb - Shimano stopped supporting that equipment a while ago. Perhaps I should be buying up stocks of 8s cassettes for my stuff now, along with a couple of road hubs.To me, it represents the exact antithesis of the sort of technology that ought to be incorporated into a simple machine such as a bicycle.
Snap.
So where do you draw the line? How do you define simple?....
a definition of 'simple' that is, er, simple, is that when part of your bike stops working in a few year's time, (or right now in the back of beyond), you don't have to throw most of the bike away because you can't fix it or get spare parts for it.
That's not simplicity, that's obsolescenceIt should be a given that an object like a bicycle should be durable and recyclable; instead of worrying about a partial recycle after a 'product life' of five years or less one should be aiming for a product life many times greater than that and a more complete recycling that isn't so energy intensive.
What counts as "many times" greater than 5 years? 50 years? You expect people to buy bikes to last 50 years? Bollocks to that. If you want something that lasts 50 years may I suggest a hair shirt? I hear they're very durable these days.
I feel deeply insulted. My tandem frame was well over 50yrs old when I bought it and it still works, when I find a stoker. Most of my kit is well over 25 years old. The biggest replacement headache is probably rims. I have Mavic hubs that I love that must date from the late 70's that turn beautifully and that I would always use in preference to some more modern stuff. My choice! But no-one wants to supply people like me with kit I would want to buy. So what's the alternative - use the car (which is also 30yrs old aand nearly infinitely repairable)
I disagree with the notion that electronic gearing is more complicated. I view it as a simplification....
.....Thing is, how is that different from non electric? If a tiagra 4600 series part fails, it's going to become increasingly hard to find replacement parts, tiagra 4700 is incompatible with 4600... the same is true a cross groups etc and brands at all points in the price range. I have a Calton touring bike in my stable that is older than me It needs a new rear hub. It's hard to find one that is compatible these days..it's a 126mm oln hub with 5 speed block. Bikes change, tech changes. I admit it's bloody infuriating that there's a lot of incompatibility within bike components. But that's not made any worse by electronic shifting.
Mzjo brings up the problem that most concerns me: there is little alternative to the present paradigm of ever-shorter product cycles, shorter product lifespans, higher prices, and product development focused on fictional and irrelevant benefits at the expense of things that matter.
It’s fine and dandy saying no-one has to buy Di2, misplaced carbon fibre, aerodynamic components, 11-speed, and the other hocus-pocus that woolly thinking has made mainstream. But if you want, say, 7-speed gearing (https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=119917), now’s your very last chance (some would say you’re already too late). If you want low-cost, high-quality, lightweight rims with thick braking surfaces: tough! You’re a generation late. Et cetera.
Meanwhile, the few, critically important open standards that have existed in the bicycle industry are being hounded out of town to make way for proprietary standards, often in the name of aerodynamic integration. In many cases these developments make the bicycle disposable, since they’re sold by manufacturers who have a history of not supporting their products with spare parts just five years down the line. They’d rather sell you a new bicycle, ideally one with aerodynamic flaps, hidden fixtures, and incompetent mechanical design such that it becomes a creaking, dysfunctional mess in two seasons of hard riding.
perhaps you have never looked inside one...? ... ;) (I know you meant as a user interface BTW
but even that isn't true- where would you be without a computer/phone to program it...?).
A lot of Di2 complaints could be mitigated with open standards... The protocol it uses is canbus, and I've found a couple of places selling the connectors. So in theory it might not be long until it's been fully reverse engineered...
I really don't miss the carbs on my first motorcycle. Fiddling about with the choke, then applying just the right amount of throttle, not too much, not too little. Especially not too much, flooding the engine and having to wait before trying again.
I really don't miss the carbs on my first motorcycle. Fiddling about with the choke, then applying just the right amount of throttle, not too much, not too little. Especially not too much, flooding the engine and having to wait before trying again.
I still do this with my bikes and with my car. No problem when you have been brought up with it. Lots of problems if you are a young thing brought up on HDI turbo diesels. My daughter's boyfriend gives me the shivers every time he borrows the 205 (but then he has also pulled the handbrake out of the floor; mechanical systems are obviously beyond him. Not too happy with a turbo diesel Skoda in his hands either mind you).
The same problem probably exists with the modern generation using friction gear shifters (regardless of where they are mounted). Failure of the education system; no respect for the elders! :facepalm:
I really don't miss the carbs on my first motorcycle. Fiddling about with the choke, then applying just the right amount of throttle, not too much, not too little. Especially not too much, flooding the engine and having to wait before trying again.
I still do this with my bikes and with my car. No problem when you have been brought up with it. Lots of problems if you are a young thing brought up on HDI turbo diesels. My daughter's boyfriend gives me the shivers every time he borrows the 205 (but then he has also pulled the handbrake out of the floor; mechanical systems are obviously beyond him. Not too happy with a turbo diesel Skoda in his hands either mind you).
The same problem probably exists with the modern generation using friction gear shifters (regardless of where they are mounted). Failure of the education system; no respect for the elders! :facepalm:
No problems? Don't be silly. My neighbours hate me after warming up a carbed bike outside the house at half seven every winter morning. EFI is a definite improvement.
However having had two cars fail with electronic engine management problems I have a deep mistrust of mobile electronic systems, wouldn't want it on a bike!
I really don't miss the carbs on my first motorcycle. Fiddling about with the choke, then applying just the right amount of throttle, not too much, not too little. Especially not too much, flooding the engine and having to wait before trying again.
I still do this with my bikes and with my car. No problem when you have been brought up with it. Lots of problems if you are a young thing brought up on HDI turbo diesels. My daughter's boyfriend gives me the shivers every time he borrows the 205 (but then he has also pulled the handbrake out of the floor; mechanical systems are obviously beyond him. Not too happy with a turbo diesel Skoda in his hands either mind you).
The same problem probably exists with the modern generation using friction gear shifters (regardless of where they are mounted). Failure of the education system; no respect for the elders! :facepalm:
No problems? Don't be silly. My neighbours hate me after warming up a carbed bike outside the house at half seven every winter morning. EFI is a definite improvement.
There you are, failure of the education system, no respect for their elders! Solution - change neighbours? Or am I lucky to have bikes that warm up quickly? Or are they all gassed by the smoke of the MZ? Bit off topic.
However having had two cars fail with electronic engine management problems I have a deep mistrust of mobile electronic systems, wouldn't want it on a bike!
I feel deeply insulted. My tandem frame was well over 50yrs old when I bought it and it still works, when I find a stoker. Most of my kit is well over 25 years old. The biggest replacement headache is probably rims. I have Mavic hubs that I love that must date from the late 70's that turn beautifully and that I would always use in preference to some more modern stuff. My choice! But no-one wants to supply people like me with kit I would want to buy. So what's the alternative - use the car (which is also 30yrs old aand nearly infinitely repairable)
(Borderline on-topic because the difference between an electric motorcycle and an electric-assist bicycle is mostly one of power and legal complaince.)I presume "legal complaince" is a matter of being compliant with the process of complaining in court? :D
However having had two cars fail with electronic engine management problems I have a deep mistrust of mobile electronic systems, wouldn't want it on a bike!
I'm increasingly of the opinion that the problem with electronic engine management systems is the sheer complexity of controlling modern combustion engines. All those fussy sensors and actuators! Use a sensible electric motor for propulsion and you can get rid of most of the troublesome electronics.
(Borderline on-topic because the difference between an electric motorcycle and an electric-assist bicycle is mostly one of power and legal complaince.)
I am flattered and yes I did buy the tandem frame 16 years before I was born! It doesn't run 50 year old components (although I would love the correct set of Resilions for it, I only have front ones that don't line up and fitting rim brakes is a headache). The problem is not asking manufacturers to keep manufacturing 50 or 80 year old designs (the tandem uses 100mm front hubs and 135mm back and conventional 68mm BSA thread bbs because I tried to future proof it a long time ago) but to keep somewhere in their design strategies a measure of forward and backward compatibility.I really don't miss the carbs on my first motorcycle. Fiddling about with the choke, then applying just the right amount of throttle, not too much, not too little. Especially not too much, flooding the engine and having to wait before trying again.
I still do this with my bikes and with my car. No problem when you have been brought up with it. Lots of problems if you are a young thing brought up on HDI turbo diesels. My daughter's boyfriend gives me the shivers every time he borrows the 205 (but then he has also pulled the handbrake out of the floor; mechanical systems are obviously beyond him. Not too happy with a turbo diesel Skoda in his hands either mind you).
The same problem probably exists with the modern generation using friction gear shifters (regardless of where they are mounted). Failure of the education system; no respect for the elders! :facepalm:
No problems? Don't be silly. My neighbours hate me after warming up a carbed bike outside the house at half seven every winter morning. EFI is a definite improvement.
There you are, failure of the education system, no respect for their elders! Solution - change neighbours? Or am I lucky to have bikes that warm up quickly? Or are they all gassed by the smoke of the MZ? Bit off topic.
However having had two cars fail with electronic engine management problems I have a deep mistrust of mobile electronic systems, wouldn't want it on a bike!
You have zero information over whether my neighbours are older or younger than me ...
... however, I've concluded you must be about 19 because you're a massive snowflake:QuoteI feel deeply insulted. My tandem frame was well over 50yrs old when I bought it and it still works, when I find a stoker. Most of my kit is well over 25 years old. The biggest replacement headache is probably rims. I have Mavic hubs that I love that must date from the late 70's that turn beautifully and that I would always use in preference to some more modern stuff. My choice! But no-one wants to supply people like me with kit I would want to buy. So what's the alternative - use the car (which is also 30yrs old aand nearly infinitely repairable)
You expect companies to keep on making retro parts for their 50 year old models, alongside whatever they're currently building, just so you can keep running your 50 year old bike and keep looking down on anything modern? Yeah that's right, all companies should spend half their time building outdated parts, that's a good one.
My two cars weren't french but the french manufacturers have a very bad record in this respect since they tend to put everything including the door locks, electric windows and radio through the engine management processor (this at least is my information; it means you can't swap apparently identical motors between different models without dealing with all the electronic gubbins at the same time). They also tend to expect the customers to do the product testing. I don't suppose manufacturers like Shimano would do that!
I am flattered and yes I did buy the tandem frame 16 years before I was born! It doesn't run 50 year old components (although I would love the correct set of Resilions for it, I only have front ones that don't line up and fitting rim brakes is a headache). The problem is not asking manufacturers to keep manufacturing 50 or 80 year old designs (the tandem uses 100mm front hubs and 135mm back and conventional 68mm BSA thread bbs because I tried to future proof it a long time ago) but to keep somewhere in their design strategies a measure of forward and backward compatibility.
You expect companies to keep on making retro parts for their 50 year old models, alongside whatever they're currently building, just so you can keep running your 50 year old bike and keep looking down on anything modern? Yeah that's right, all companies should spend half their time building outdated parts, that's a good one.
... just so the two 1968 tandems still on the road can be kept running? Where' the economic sense in that? Do you also want your computer to still run programs written for MS DOS?
worth mentioning that in a free market economy manufacturers are free to compete with one another on style, function, price etc and that is just the way it is. The converse of this would be in centrally planned economies, in which there is basically no incentive for change.
The latter tends to produce distinctly uninspired albeit functional fodder for the masses, 'tis true, whereas the best that the free market offers is likely to be very good. However beneath these shining pinnacles of the free market lies oceans of what is best described 'complete dross' that lacks the redeeming virtue of even being functional for more than five minutes. Not sure if the average quality is wildly different tbh.... :o
Meantime in cycle sport there have to be rules and any organising body has to tread the fine line between fair competition, safety and stimulating 'progress' (whatever that is). It is widely viewed that incentivising competitors to spend vast sums of money on 'marginal gains' is not good for competition and effectively excludes folk without deep pockets from even starting in a given sport.
So the UCI gets branded as 'luddites' whenever they approach a new development with anything approaching due caution. Who are the main critics? Well, it isn't the riders themselves, it is the equipment manufacturers who wish to shift more product and it is the technology obsessed technofreak punters who will cheerfully spend a month's salary on something if they think it will make them go 0.001% faster.
I personally don't agree with everything the UCI does equipment-wise but I don't think they are very far off the mark; basically you need to decide if cycle racing is a sport or a pi**ing match in technology (like F1 is).
Does new technology make cycle sport more interesting and exciting? Well up to a point yes, if you are interested in technology. But having said that some forms of cycle racing have settled on 'a type' and are none the worse for it, I feel; I'm thinking of Keirin racing for example. This makes for fair racing and makes the riders concentrate on the athletic and tactical elements of the sport, which is probably how it should be, if you want to find out who is 'best'. I think that no one would argue that the racing is any less exciting as a result of the equipment rules, indeed it would still be pretty exciting if they were on boneshakers or pennyfarthings, come to that.
I must have held similar views for a long time because I still recall feeling that Moser's hour records were tremendously devalued by the fact that he wasn't on a level playing field vs previous holders of the record. Basically he went faster for less effort as a result of some rather fancy equipment, not as a result of being a better cyclist. Very clever I am sure, but not a true sporting contest any more.
For cycling as a sport to flourish, I think the rulemakers need to either make sure that any technology that is truly performance-altering is both safe and doesn't result in an entry barrier to the sport, or to ban it. I think they have failed when folk are incentivised to spend a fortune on their bikes and there is any kind of perceived need for anyone else to do the same.
Thus I am both philosophically and practically opposed to the introduction of certain technologies into cycle sport.
So, Di2 were truly performance altering then there would be a good argument for the UCI to ban it; as it is, what benefits it offers come with downsides that are mitigated for professional riders (eg by race support) but not for amateurs, where it (IMV) remains largely pointless and expensive with fewer pros than cons.
To those mitherers who moan about the terrible burden of maintaining their gear cables I would point out that
a) it ain't rocket science,
and more importantly
b)if you can't do that, you won't be much good at maintaining basic safety equipment like brakes either.
On the latter point, the LBS sees plenty of bikes where the owner has failed to maintain the gears and that is the main reason why the bike is in the shop getting repaired. In the vast majority of such cases, the brakes are crap too.
cheers
In this case '10' doesn't signify ten gears, but 10mm - the pitch of the chain in this scaled-down design. Almost all bike chains are half-inch pitch, so the centres of the pins are half an inch, or 12.7mm, apart. Introduced in 1976, and discontinued some time in the 80s, Dura-Ace 10 used a smaller chain and therefore smaller chainrings and sprockets - the number of teeth was the same, but they were closer together. The big advantage was lower weight, and eventually, according to legend, the Japanese kierin federation banned the 10mm pitch equipment because it might give some riders an unfair advantage.I wonder how many they actually sold in the at least four years of production?
Keirin is an oddity not just in cycling but all sport. AIUI, it was developed by the Japanese government as a vehicle for betting in the belief this would help revive the depressed economy in the aftermath of WWII. So in some ways its nearest relatives are not any other form of track racing but national lotteries.
In what way? Obviously both are a vehicle for betting but then so is horse racing. I'm not aware of any state involvement in greyhound racing.Keirin is an oddity not just in cycling but all sport. AIUI, it was developed by the Japanese government as a vehicle for betting in the belief this would help revive the depressed economy in the aftermath of WWII. So in some ways its nearest relatives are not any other form of track racing but national lotteries.
Or greyhound racing, perhaps.
On a boring conference call, QG?
The bike is a simple machine thing has been bugging me.
Forged in a crucible at >1500°C. A specific mix of Iron, Carbon, Oxygen, Chrome, Manganese, Molybdenum, and silicon, heated to a molten pool before decanting into a mould. The cast ingot journeys on through yet more processes of heat and pressure. To extrude forth a hollow tube. But no uniform tube. Across it's whole length, the thickness at every point is carefully chosen to maximize strength, whilst minimizing weight. This tube joins with 7 others, each as exacting in it's specification as the rest.
This bundle of tubes is passed to a craftswoman, who over hours of paintstaking work, will take each tube, and carefully cut, debur, bend, and finish it before assembling it upon a jig with all the others. Here 11000°C sparks melt both the tube and a filler material, chosen for it's chemical properties when mixed with the elements of the tube. This stage can be what takes a bundle of tubes and makes a bike, or makes a pile of scrap. Too hot, too cold, too slow or too fast, and it's all waste. But get just the right goldilocks combination and you got you a weld. Repeat for every point where tube meets tube, drop out, or other metal work. Being careful to not heat things too fast or too slow so as to get the right formation of martensite crystal structures. Layed upon a calibrated table with gauges and fixings, the now assembled frame is trued up to correct any warping created as a cause of the heating.
Now we have a frame. Wheels crafted from electro smelted aluminium rims, laced together with steel spokes, each with a thickness that varies across it's length to maximize strength for a given weight. These spokes connect the rims to hubs lovingly machined from hunks of aluminium, manganese bronze bearing races pressed into the aluminium body, ready to except bearings so round that if the earth was shrunk to the size of a 1/4" ball bearing, it wouldn't be round enough. A free hub body combining machined ratchet races and hardened spring loaded pawls, designed to withstand 1000's of neutons of torque transmitted through them. A cassette of cogs, each more than just collection of teeth, but instead engineered shifting ramps, cut outs and pins help shift the chain from one to another under loads of hundreds of watts.
A chain, 112 links, each link made of 2 plates, a bushing and a pin, assembled with tolerances barely perceivable to the naked eye, lubricated with an liquid that's the product of thousands of hours of formulation, testing and refinement. This chain connects to the chain ring that like the cogs on the rear is a highly engineered ring of metal with ramps, pins, teeth, and cut outs, each specifically designed to make shifting from one to another flawless under load.
All these parts, and more go together, so 100kg of throbbing steak, and gammy nuggets of genetically programmed meat, connected together with over 100km of wiring loom, can hang off an armature of 306 bones. To propel both machine and animal, along a road at speeds unrivaled by the natural world.
But yeah, the bike's a simple machine.
J
QuoteBut yeah, the bike's a simple machine.On a boring conference call, QG?
As to cabling...replacing a full gear cable set every Spring inner and outers (and therefore bar tape) is doable. I know how to do it. I can do it. But it costs £20-30 in parts and do you know what? I don't have to do it because I have DI2 :smug:
I'm not sure why Brucey et al keep going on about professional cycling. It's about as relevant to 99.9% of cyclists as F1 is to driving your Dacia Sondero.I guess Brucey feels the 99.9% are being conned by marketing to use what the professionals use. Which doesn't say much, I suppose, for his view of people in general. Apparently Chris Juden the former CTC tech guy has an almost opposite view; that electronic shifting is fine for tourists and utility riders but should not be allowed in racing, on purist "human muscular effort" grounds.
I'm not sure why Brucey et al keep going on about professional cycling. It's about as relevant to 99.9% of cyclists as F1 is to driving your Dacia Sondero.I guess Brucey feels the 99.9% are being conned by marketing to use what the professionals use. Which doesn't say much, I suppose, for his view of people in general. Apparently Chris Juden the former CTC tech guy has an almost opposite view; that electronic shifting is fine for tourists and utility riders but should not be allowed in racing, on purist "human muscular effort" grounds.
In what way? Obviously both are a vehicle for betting but then so is horse racing. I'm not aware of any state involvement in greyhound racing.Keirin is an oddity not just in cycling but all sport. AIUI, it was developed by the Japanese government as a vehicle for betting in the belief this would help revive the depressed economy in the aftermath of WWII. So in some ways its nearest relatives are not any other form of track racing but national lotteries.
Or greyhound racing, perhaps.
...I think that particular pendulum is beginning to swing, disc brakes being the obvious example of the pro's being forced down a route because that's what the market wants....
If disc brakes and Di2 were so brilliant all the pros would use them without exception, and they don't, because they aren't
BTW the idea that hydraulic brakes (or indeed many other systems) require 'less maintenance' is not quite true in most cases. What happens with a lot of these systems is that routine maintenance is not possible/realistic (for example you would need to strip a hydraulic system and start to look for microscopic nicks in the seal edges etc) and the net result is that the system will fail without warning at some time in the future, possibly/probably catastrophically. At which time the usual 'repair procedure' is to chuck the lot in the bin and start again. Say what you like about Bowden cables but their failings are (or should be) gradual and obvious for the most part.
I'm not sure why Brucey et al keep going on about professional cycling. It's about as relevant to 99.9% of cyclists as F1 is to driving your Dacia Sondero.I guess Brucey feels the 99.9% are being conned by marketing to use what the professionals use. Which doesn't say much, I suppose, for his view of people in general. Apparently Chris Juden the former CTC tech guy has an almost opposite view; that electronic shifting is fine for tourists and utility riders but should not be allowed in racing, on purist "human muscular effort" grounds.
I think that particular pendulum is beginning to swing, disc brakes being the obvious example of the pro's being forced down a route because that's what the market wants. It'll be interesting over the next few years to see if the industry cottons on to the fact it's more profitable to supply what your customers want not what your advertising platform wants, and what effects that has on pro-cycling.
The more I learn about Churchill, the more surprising he seems. And it's well know he was an early campaigner for multiple gears.In what way? Obviously both are a vehicle for betting but then so is horse racing. I'm not aware of any state involvement in greyhound racing.Keirin is an oddity not just in cycling but all sport. AIUI, it was developed by the Japanese government as a vehicle for betting in the belief this would help revive the depressed economy in the aftermath of WWII. So in some ways its nearest relatives are not any other form of track racing but national lotteries.
Or greyhound racing, perhaps.
I'm looking at it a slightly different way. I was thinking more of the form of the sport rather than its purpose - watching Japanese Keirin races reminds me of greyhound races. Compact circular tracks, short races, competitors wearing colour-coded uniforms...
As for state involvement in gambling in the UK, there used to be the Tote - a Winston Churchill creation - but that was more about giving punters safe betting away from dodgy backstreet bookies, I think.
...Apart from competitive cyclocross riders, everyone who uses disc brakes doesn't care what the UCI says. I expect the same is largely true of electronic shifting (and entirely true of pannier racks and mudguards). Or do you think bikes like the Surly Disc Trucker are influenced by UCI rules?
As I said above I don't think the UCI has been unreasonable in their approach. Others have disagreed, spouting that 'everyone will use disc brakes as soon as those luddites at the UCI will allow it' and so forth, which has, of course, turned out to be utter nonsense.
There are only four activities in Japan that punters can legally place bets on; keirin is one.Ah! That explains a lot :thumbsup:
....I think that particular pendulum is beginning to swing, disc brakes being the obvious example of the pro's being forced down a route because that's what the market wants. ...
Brucey, there you go again talking about professional riders, as if it is relevant to real world cycling....
Can you give me an example of when in a pro race, cyclists have to swerve around urban traffic, where strong, instant and predictable braking is paramount?
Brucey, there you go again talking about professional riders, as if it is relevant to real world cycling.
Can you give me an example of when in a pro race, cyclists have to swerve around urban traffic, where strong, instant and predictable braking is paramount? No? Thought not.
In the races that showcase new gear the traffic is all going in the same direction. There are no pedestrians and parked cars. No traffic lights. No junctions. Equally, the roads will have been swept and potholes filled. All of these factors become even more critical for the real world rider when it rains, when discs outperform rim brakes.
Do pros need to buy their own carbon rims when they wear them out through braking? No. So that is just another of the advantages of disc brakes that don't affect pro riders.
Do pros have to change their own outer and inner cables after a skoggy spring classic? Why no. So why would they appreciate the absence of that task if equipped with Di2.
Your problem is that you are speaking from a purely hypothetical standpoint, and a mistaken one at that.
There are those of us here who have years of actual experience of the systems upon which you opine, and we know what the tangible benefits are, just as we know the downsides.
One thing I do know is that if you always want to stop quickly in the wet whilst commuting, you should buy drum brakes, not discs. These consistently allow you stop more quickly that discs for the simple reason that the brake is there right away, whereas with discs it takes one full turn of the wheel (at least) to get rid of the water on the disc and then the brake comes on with an unpredictable amount of force.
Brucey, there you go again talking about professional riders, as if it is relevant to real world cycling....
like it or not, it is, because folk like to buy what the pros ride. The manufacturers know this which is why they sponsor the sport. Were it not so they would be wasting their money, obviously....QuoteCan you give me an example of when in a pro race, cyclists have to swerve around urban traffic, where strong, instant and predictable braking is paramount?
pros need to swerve around roadside furniture, mad pedestrians, dogs, horses, motorcyclists, team cars, other cyclists, other cyclists having accidents, you name it. Whether having more powerful brakes is good or not in these situations is moot.
One thing I do know is that if you always want to stop quickly in the wet whilst commuting, you should buy drum brakes, not discs. These consistently allow you stop more quickly that discs for the simple reason that the brake is there right away, whereas with discs it takes one full turn of the wheel (at least) to get rid of the water on the disc and then the brake comes on with an unpredictable amount of force. On a bike with half-decent drum brakes you can stop dead from about 20mph in a little over two full turns of the wheels (wet or dry). I have tried and failed to do likewise on disc brakes.
BTW I speak as one who has used various disc brakes on bicycles for about twenty years.... ::-) . Probably it is best if you don't second guess the level of experience of others.
cheers
pros need to swerve around roadside furniture, mad pedestrians, dogs, horses, motorcyclists, team cars, other cyclists, other cyclists having accidents, you name it. Whether having more powerful brakes is good or not in these situations is moot.
One thing I do know is that if you always want to stop quickly in the wet whilst commuting, you should buy drum brakes, not discs.
So a weight penalty does matter to you, even with better braking?
By the way, the weight penalty of equivalent disc vs non-bikes is about 200g per bike.
.....Drum brakes. On a racing bike.if you bother reading what I wrote you will see that I prefaced my comment about drum brakes with a caveat.
Riiiiight.
Not my experience at all but I've only had 10 years riding with discs.
By the way, the weight penalty of equivalent disc vs non-bikes is about 200g per bike.
the actual difference is ~600g, which is still small enough for most folk not to pay attention to. drum brakes would be double that, plus they (the current outdated ones) don't work, ime. if there was a lightweight and efficient drum brake system available it would be high on my priority list!
Sorry, I know you're normally a very knowledgeable fellow Brucey; but I've used discs, and I've used rim brakes. During rain, there is a lag to clear the water on rim brakes. There is not one on the discs. The wheel diameter being approximately the same, you'd expect to feel the same delay if the effect occurred on both.
And the modulation of disc brakes is normally equal or better than rims. If your brakes are unpredictable, then try and fix that for sure. But these powerful yet unpredictable brakes you are alluding to have not been my experience. If you gave me the choice between a powerful yet unpredictable disc, and a smooth but slightly underpowered rim brake, then sure I would choose the latter. But that is not the world I live in....
I believe the Cannondale Supersix Hi-mod has a 200g difference between disc and non-disc.
They can be brilliant for things that don't matter in professional racing, like ease of adjustment and avoiding rim wear.
That compares favourably with the cost of discs before you consider that rims last longer.
That compares favourably with the cost of discs before you consider that rims last longer.
I consider (the prospect of) replacing rims on my bikes (every few years) worthwhile and
cheaper than getting rid of my three rim brake bikes for disc brake counterparts.
I've not had to do it very often.I consider (the prospect of) replacing rims on my bikes (every few years) worthwhile and
cheaper than getting rid of my three rim brake bikes for disc brake counterparts.
This is the problem with bad design decisions. You continue to pay for them for years.
Sorry, I know you're normally a very knowledgeable fellow Brucey; but I've used discs, and I've used rim brakes. During rain, there is a lag to clear the water on rim brakes. There is not one on the discs. The wheel diameter being approximately the same, you'd expect to feel the same delay if the effect occurred on both.
And the modulation of disc brakes is normally equal or better than rims. If your brakes are unpredictable, then try and fix that for sure. But these powerful yet unpredictable brakes you are alluding to have not been my experience. If you gave me the choice between a powerful yet unpredictable disc, and a smooth but slightly underpowered rim brake, then sure I would choose the latter. But that is not the world I live in....
er, I was talking about DRUM BRAKES.....
cheers
maybe this is for another thread but in fairness if you ride a good disc system you don't notice the lag until you have something to compare it with. Some disc pads lag slightly in the dry, which you will feel as the brake 'coming on' by itself as the pad faces heat up. Others (most of them to some extent) don't bite properly through the water that sits on the disc when it rains.
In extremis (when it is very wet) some disc brakes which work brilliantly in the dry do nothing at all when first applied in the wet. (NB car disc brakes do this when they get properly wet; they are spared this in normal use because of the way the brakes are protected from road spray). The same brakes might be fine when applied a second time but that is of absolutely no value under emergency conditions. I gave up commuting on one bike because the disc brakes were so poor under these conditions, figuring that it was only a matter of time before I ran into someone. Even good disc brakes take a fraction of a second to clear the water off the discs when first applied. The difference in stopping distance is significant; one extra turn of the wheel adds about half again to the stopping distance from 15-20mph.
Cycling is in a strange place. There is a consumer eagerness to believe manufacturers’ claims that I have not seen elsewhere. People have convinced themselves that aero wheels take minutes off their TT and Wahoo’s aero GPS unit saves 12 seconds. Never mind that until last year the fastest Paris–Roubaix was that of 1964 (average speed 45.129 km/h) on a steel bicycle with 36-spoke box-section rims and the combined speed gains from all the ‘game-changing’ tech since then should allow our bicycles to time travel.
<snip>
Of course anyone who turns down the Kool-Aid is a spoilsport.
I consider (the prospect of) replacing rims on my bikes (every few years) worthwhile and
cheaper than getting rid of my three rim brake bikes for disc brake counterparts.
This is the problem with bad design decisions. You continue to pay for them for years.
How on earth is Paris-Roubaix relevant to most people's use of disc brakes, drum brakes or Di2?
As I've said repeatedly upthread the opinions of pros are largely irrelevant to the rest of us.They should try it with drums. ;)
Here's another example: want to know why some pros are anti-disc?
It complicates wheel changes during a race.
.....Drum brakes. On a racing bike.if you bother reading what I wrote you will see that I prefaced my comment about drum brakes with a caveat.
Riiiiight.
;D ;D ;D.....Drum brakes. On a racing bike.if you bother reading what I wrote you will see that I prefaced my comment about drum brakes with a caveat.
Riiiiight.
The caveat being you were referring to commuting, yes?
I commute on a racing bike.
;D ;D ;D.....Drum brakes. On a racing bike.if you bother reading what I wrote you will see that I prefaced my comment about drum brakes with a caveat.
Riiiiight.
The caveat being you were referring to commuting, yes?
I commute on a racing bike.
Sorry, I know you're normally a very knowledgeable fellow Brucey; but I've used discs, and I've used rim brakes. During rain, there is a lag to clear the water on rim brakes. There is not one on the discs. The wheel diameter being approximately the same, you'd expect to feel the same delay if the effect occurred on both.
And the modulation of disc brakes is normally equal or better than rims. If your brakes are unpredictable, then try and fix that for sure. But these powerful yet unpredictable brakes you are alluding to have not been my experience. If you gave me the choice between a powerful yet unpredictable disc, and a smooth but slightly underpowered rim brake, then sure I would choose the latter. But that is not the world I live in....
er, I was talking about DRUM BRAKES.....
cheersERM.Erm... :
In extremis (when it is very wet) some disc brakes which work brilliantly in the dry do nothing at all when first applied in the wet. (NB car disc brakes do this when they get properly wet; they are spared this in normal use because of the way the brakes are protected from road spray). The same brakes might be fine when applied a second time but that is of absolutely no value under emergency conditions. I gave up commuting on one bike because the disc brakes were so poor under these conditions, figuring that it was only a matter of time before I ran into someone. Even good disc brakes take a fraction of a second to clear the water off the discs when first applied. The difference in stopping distance is significant; one extra turn of the wheel adds about half again to the stopping distance from 15-20mph.
Drums have a major failing for commuting (and even touring) as far as I can see - no-one makes a drumbraked dyno hub, whereas discbraked hubs are made by all the principal makes. But 650B classicists (a bit like me with more money) may be forced down the disc road to avoid wearing out rare (and expensive when the choice becomes Pacenti or Compass) rims that will work with 30mm tyres (or use drums and forgo the dyno hub).
In extremis (when it is very wet) some disc brakes which work brilliantly in the dry do nothing at all when first applied in the wet. (NB car disc brakes do this when they get properly wet; they are spared this in normal use because of the way the brakes are protected from road spray). The same brakes might be fine when applied a second time but that is of absolutely no value under emergency conditions. I gave up commuting on one bike because the disc brakes were so poor under these conditions, figuring that it was only a matter of time before I ran into someone. Even good disc brakes take a fraction of a second to clear the water off the discs when first applied. The difference in stopping distance is significant; one extra turn of the wheel adds about half again to the stopping distance from 15-20mph.
While I would say that I've never experienced the lag you describe on either of my bikes with disk brakes (MTB with Avid Juicy, Cube with 105 hydro), I don't understand how the bolded bit can possibly be true. 1 extra revolution of the wheel is ~2m depending on tyre diameter, so surely that's what is added to your stopping distance (and you can't stop from 20mph in 4m)?
;D ;D ;D.....Drum brakes. On a racing bike.if you bother reading what I wrote you will see that I prefaced my comment about drum brakes with a caveat.
Riiiiight.
The caveat being you were referring to commuting, yes?
I commute on a racing bike.
Yes but you don't need to worry about repairing punctures because you have tubeless tyres!
I am actually with you on disc brakes, except that the only place I have one is the sus fork on the mtb - because I have no choice, other than change the fork (still looking for a cheap or giveaway disc for the back, for ease of getting the wheel out). And the 650b tourer has a drum front brake to compliment the front caliper because I didn't want to strip the wheel to recover the rim. The rest have rim brakes 'cos that is what I have.
What changed my opinion on disc brakes was the opinion of an old friend (now deceased) who got himself a Dawes (Horizon I think) for commuting and club riding and remarked that all the people in his club who made unkind remarks about his choice were also the ones that were too afraid to do club runs in the rain on their flash race bikes with rim brakes. He also remarked that it was a real surprise how much bikes had come on since the old stuff that he used to (and I still) ride. He wasn't on top-end equipment - Sora groupset I think! For various reasons his was one opinion I respect.
Drums have a major failing for commuting (and even touring) as far as I can see - no-one makes a drumbraked dyno hub, whereas discbraked hubs are made by all the principal makes. But 650B classicists (a bit like me with more money) may be forced down the disc road to avoid wearing out rare (and expensive when the choice becomes Pacenti or Compass) rims that will work with 30mm tyres (or use drums and forgo the dyno hub).
I think SA make a drum dynohub, but it is a) fairly expensive (though not SON territory) and b) not all that efficient lights-off.
How on earth is Paris-Roubaix relevant to most people's use of disc brakes, drum brakes or Di2?
ERM.Erm... :
just to make it clear, I was comparing disc brakes with drum brakes, which should be painfully obvious if you bother to read what I wrote. Not sure why you started on rim brakes, or seemed surprised that I should mention disc brakes in any such comparison....
well some would say that any bike you commute on is by definition a commuting bike. You can tour or commute on just about anything but some are better suited to the task than others. What I'm saying is that you would stop quicker, and do a lot less maintenance if you had drum brakes on your commuting bike.
BTW I have built several bikes using an old road racing frame as a starting point; fitted with drum brakes and durable transmission parts they make excellent commuting bikes; pretty just as fast, as comfy as anything else but much less maintenance required.
Re disc life; in commuting use they often wear prematurely and they often get bent in stupid parking knocks too. I'm not sure that discs last longer than rims (with rim brakes) in some uses.
well call it 9m/s if you like (which is almost exactly 20mph). If you pull up at just less than 1G you will do it in ~1s and you will travel ~4.5m.
Obviously the first half a second is the most important; this halves your speed and removes 75% of your kinetic energy.
In tests I carried out I could sometimes stop a second time (i.e. once the discs were dry) as well using disc brakes but not the first time when the discs were actually wet. Results varied with the pad compound, and whilst at best the disc brakes were powerful enough to do a stoppie, modulating to the edge of that in <1s total stopping time in an emergency is a big ask. Drum brakes were pretty well unaffected by the wet, and were sized/conditioned so as not to be quite able to produce a stoppie, which made it easy to grab a handful safely.
BTW some car brakes dab the brakes onto the discs at regular intervals to ensure that the disc face is really clean so that when you need to brake they are immediately as effective as possible. Cars have much smaller wheel circumference vs typical stopping distance, so it arguably matters less that you light lose one or two turns of the wheel before the discs are clean and the brakes reach full power; even so it is deemed to be worthwhile.
I will mention again that most folk have not given bicycle drum brakes a fair test; they have usually either dismissed them without any real knowledge or they will have a limited experience of a poor setup.
BTW many of the fastest racing bicycles in the world use drum brakes; they are widely used in the HPV community; not least because they allow the entire brake to be contained within a properly aerodynamic wheel assembly. Disc brakes are by contrast rather problematic by comparison.
Anyway, I've been for a bike ride. It was a lovely evening.
Apparently Chris Juden the former CTC tech guy has an almost opposite view; that electronic shifting is fine for tourists and utility riders but should not be allowed in racing, on purist "human muscular effort" grounds.
(Obligatory bugbear of mine: the Luddites weren't anti-technology per se; they just didn't approve of the way the technology was being used to enrich factory owners at the expense of their working conditions.)
Pace quixoticgeek's poetic essay, the bicycle is still a simple machine; one could lend complexity and enchantment to pretty much any mass-manufactured article by considering its production in that kind of detail.* Perhaps it would be better to say that it is a comprehensible machine - everything is out there on display, and its workings are easy to grasp - pull this lever, this cable moves, pulling this bit, etc. (which isn't to say that this means getting it to work is easy, as anyone who has cursed a flying pingfuckit knows!) I think for a lot of people, this quality - and the self-reliance it enables - is a large part of the bicycle's appeal, and so anything that starts to chip away at that quality, by black-boxing systems and opting for proprietary widgets, is something to be questioned if not resisted. The environmental/ecological dimension is also important to a lot of people, and again, the move towards equipment that will quickly become obsolete and can't be made to work with non-compatible kit is a genuine downside; whether the benefits are worth it will depend on the kind of cycling you do.
Just how wet are you getting your rotors? And how far are you going between applying the brakes?
Isn't that like comparing the Bloodhound super sonic car to a reliant robin?
Anyway, I've been for a bike ride. It was a lovely evening.
I went for a ride too. Crossed paths with Kévin Réza at Longchamp!
If people quoted only the part of a post they were replying to, and then stated clearly what they objected to, the thread would be marginally easier to follow. Quoting entire posts is rarely justified.
The enduring popularity of the fixed gear should give us an inkling that throwing ‘technology’ at the bicycle doesn’t always make it better. As with many things, restraint and discipline may increase enjoyment. So it usually is with bleeping, battery-powered gadgets that sit uneasily with our atavistic humanity. Adding electrics or, worse, electronics to the process of selecting a gear – something that hasn’t been susceptible to meaningful improvement in about half a century for a practical definition of meaningful – is unlikely to improve the enjoyment of bicycling although it might have its own shallow appeal … as apparently does the fascination with the low lever force of hydraulic disc brakes.
However, I know that few people enjoy cycling as much as I do. The proof is the proclivity of the others to talk too much in group rides, listen to music, or do other things that dilute the never-ending thrill of balancing on two wheels while working the muscles for the sheer pleasure of it as a horse does when it suddenly bolts across an empty field. It’s a good time to observe the world and shape the half-crystallised thoughts we carry around all day, not to mention bury bad ideas. But if none of this is applicable, maybe gadgets as on-board entertainment makes up for some of that loss. I’m pleased to say I wouldn’t know.
The way tech is going it's going to make many more jobs obsolete in the next couple of decades...All the more reason to develop a critical attitude to tech and the uses to which it is put...
Perhaps, this gives me a more accepting, or at least understanding, viewpoint on the black box in the rear derailleur, that makes a Di2 system do magic. And while I agree that it is currently a proprietary closed system, I wonder for how long that may be the case...
J
er , wet, and far enough to get them wet. Which is not far when it is raining. The point is that the brakes are unpredictable, which is not at all desirable.
Plenty of folk are saying; " I've never noticed any lag with my discs" but no-one is saying they have bothered to measure how quickly they can pull up with various brakes under various conditions.
I have encountered scepticism re drum brakes numerous times before. What usually works is to ride alongside a sceptic (with them using discs or rim brakes that they find powerful enough) and then to outbrake them using my (ancient) drum brakes.
Of course you try and ride within the limits of the brakes (whatever they are) but this doesn't stop some numpty from stepping out just in front of you.
only if they had exactly the exact same model brakes fitted.... ;)
BTW you may be including coaster brakes in the category 'drum brakes'. I am not, and nor does anyone else much.
You couldn't get any easier than the maintenance required on an SA drum brake; about once a year you adjust the barrel adjuster, and after five or ten years (or maybe more) you change the brake plate for a new one, shoes and all, if you have to. You easily know it is worn out because the arm moves to a certain point. If you are teaching folk how to fix bikes you need to know this stuff. I have several such brakes that are over 20 years old and have lived out of doors all that time, still work fine, still on their original brake shoes. If you carry a cool tool or a flat spanner you can very easily remove the brake plate by the side of the road, but I have never known anyone want or need to do such a thing.
FWIW I would suggest that being able to do basic wheel repairs is not far behind being able to fix punctures in terms of a useful skill to have whilst touring. It is usually not at all a good idea to ride on a wheel that is so out of shape that it is only just running through the frame, (esp if it can be avoided) and when you need to do that it isn't a bad idea to limit your speed to one concomitant with having just one brake, which of course you will have if you are running rim brakes, having simply unhooked it. By contrast having a powerful brake in the middle of a wheel that may be on the verge of collapse is not as useful as you might think; wheels with disc brakes are often weak anyway; they usually have just 32 spokes (not enough on a touring bike, really) and the front is dished and therefore weaker to start with.
Once you can do basic wheel repairs, building a wheel is not a major step and means that you have one less psychological barrier to touring or using rim brakes.
FWIW rims don't have to wear out quickly on bikes with rim brakes; I have several sets of wheels which have done many tens of thousands of miles and the rims are not yet badly worn.
BTW where your CoG is can limit how hard you brake; if your CoG is too low and too far back you may run out of tyre traction and be unable to do a stoppie.
The way tech is going it's going to make many more jobs obsolete in the next couple of decades...All the more reason to develop a critical attitude to tech and the uses to which it is put...
I've a degree in aeronautical engineering fom Imperial, and have taken courses on control theory and the like; yet I have neither the time, skill, or the inclination to fix broken electronics, never mind delving into software (even if it were open). I admire people like yourself and Kim that can, but you're surely a tiny minority among the people willing to attempt bicycle maintenance.
(OTOH, to contradict myself, I'd take the NL position in a heartbeat - mass cycling, good infrastructure, and most people can't fix a puncture...)
Perhaps it would be better to say that it is a comprehensible machine - everything is out there on display, and its workings are easy to grasp - pull this lever, this cable moves, pulling this bit, etc. (which isn't to say that this means getting it to work is easy, as anyone who has cursed a flying pingfuckit knows!) I think for a lot of people, this quality - and the self-reliance it enables - is a large part of the bicycle's appeal, and so anything that starts to chip away at that quality, by black-boxing systems and opting for proprietary widgets, is something to be questioned if not resisted.
I went for a ride too. Crossed paths with Kévin Réza at Longchamp!Was he on a gentle training ride? Did you speak a lot to him?
.... They've allowed me to stop within time every time I've needed to. I installed the brakes I have, I've ridden 4Mm on them, I know their quirks, their personality.
Quote from: Brucey
FWIW I would suggest that being able to do basic wheel repairs is not far behind being able to fix punctures in terms of a useful skill to have whilst touring.....
Once you can do basic wheel repairs, building a wheel is not a major step and means that you have one less psychological barrier to touring or using rim brakes.
Aye, Learning to build wheels is something I am very much wanting to do.
Quote from: Brucey
BTW where your CoG is can limit how hard you brake; if your CoG is too low and too far back you may run out of tyre traction and be unable to do a stoppie.
With 100kg of fat dyke between handle bars and saddle, there is no way my CoG can be considered low...
On topic - it seems that the Di2 "crash mode" caused major problems for George Bennet yesterday at the foot of the Zoncolan. NB he didn't crash, but it cost him a lot of time as riding the Zoncolan in the 11 tooth sprocket is just not possible.
Bike changes weren't allowed on the Zoncolan.On topic - it seems that the Di2 "crash mode" caused major problems for George Bennet yesterday at the foot of the Zoncolan. NB he didn't crash, but it cost him a lot of time as riding the Zoncolan in the 11 tooth sprocket is just not possible.
No more trouble than a broken cable would have done, just needed a bike change...
On topic - it seems that the Di2 "crash mode" caused major problems for George Bennet yesterday at the foot of the Zoncolan. NB he didn't crash, but it cost him a lot of time as riding the Zoncolan in the 11 tooth sprocket is just not possible.
No more trouble than a broken cable would have done, just needed a bike change...
Bike changes weren't allowed on the Zoncolan.
I say "purist" because he is objecting not to electric motors powering the bike but to electric power that is non-motive. It was my impression that his objection extended to computers, and in fact he says in the post you've linked to:Apparently Chris Juden the former CTC tech guy has an almost opposite view; that electronic shifting is fine for tourists and utility riders but should not be allowed in racing, on purist "human muscular effort" grounds.
One of Juden’s posts on this matter is here. (https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=120802&p=1218624#p1218624)
I am surprised to hear this view described as “purist”. It might be purist to not want electric shifting while touring, but racing is an athletic competition! Logically any part of the bicycle that does not merely monitor it or the rider should be powered by the cyclist. Otherwise why stop with servomotors?
Of course this view is unrealistic, since the sport is managed by technocrats rather than thinkers and powered by sponsor money rather than good intentions. But I don’t see it as purist.
Since the invention of the electronic speed/mileometer in the 1970s, we've gradually allowed these aids to replace much of the skill that was previously required to pace oneself and allowed race radios to replace other skills, team tactics and the element of chance. We let the purity of sport be nibbled away by these artificially powered aids. Back then there was no realistic prospect of the rider self-powering these devices. But now we most certainly do have the technology.
His view has admirable logical integrity and it might make for more exciting racing, especially if it resulted in the abolition of race radios. Incidentally, I was at a talk recently where William Fotheringham was asked for his suggestions to make racing more exciting and one of them was the abolition of roadside assistance (though not on "human muscular effort" grounds). But it is an opinion on competition and doesn't apply to any other form of cycling.
True, he just needed a bike change. But when you are in the lead group and you have to stop to wait for your team car/moto with a bike on it at the bottom of a climb, you'll lose at least a minute, and you aren't going to make up a minute on the Zoncolan. I don't know what the frequency of cable failures was in the pro ranks before they went to Di2 (or how frequent "crash mode" is), but this is an extra failure mode (the Di2 cable can still break).On topic - it seems that the Di2 "crash mode" caused major problems for George Bennet yesterday at the foot of the Zoncolan. NB he didn't crash, but it cost him a lot of time as riding the Zoncolan in the 11 tooth sprocket is just not possible.
No more trouble than a broken cable would have done, just needed a bike change...
Bike changes weren't allowed on the Zoncolan.
Then why were there motobikes with passengers carrying extra bikes on the back, following the riders up said hill? As well as the Neutral service moto ?
J
Bla bla bla
I've just done 340 miles on a bike with di2 and discs.
It was great.
I don't recall as many riders having to stop in the past because their mechanically operated gears had gone wonky; there may be other things that have changed (such as the move to 11s) which may have caused problems to be more frequent but my finger of suspicion is pointed firmly at the Di2 systems as being the most likely culprit.
On topic - it seems that the Di2 "crash mode" caused major problems for George Bennet yesterday at the foot of the Zoncolan. NB he didn't crash, but it cost him a lot of time as riding the Zoncolan in the 11 tooth sprocket is just not possible.I'm not meaning to stoke the flames here - Di2 clearly has a place for certain riders - but the interview by the Telegraph Cycling Podcast with Bennett is quite something. He was VERY miserable! He was having a great Giro, high up on GC.
Am I right in understanding that every time a rider has a bike problem, you're blaming it on Di2, whether or not it was a Di2 problem, and whether or not the rider was even using Di2, and then using this as evidence against using Di2?
Am I right in understanding that every time a rider has a bike problem, you're blaming it on Di2, whether or not it was a Di2 problem, and whether or not the rider was even using Di2, and then using this as evidence against using Di2?
that would be too easy. Little clues like the rider being stuck in the wrong gear entirely, on a bike with no gear cables tend to give the game away.... ::-)
one of the many incidents I recall was a few years ago when the ToB went through Keswick. There were two riders in a chasing group and one of them went for another gear at the back. P-twang went his electric RD, right into the spokes. This was a race-altering event and I saw it on live TV, but it didn't make the highlights show despite being pivotal to the events of the day's racing.
cheers
one of the many incidents I recall was a few years ago when the ToB went through Keswick. There were two riders in a chasing group and one of them went for another gear at the back. P-twang went his electric RD, right into the spokes. This was a race-altering event and I saw it on live TV, but it didn't make the highlights show despite being pivotal to the events of the day's racing.
On topic - it seems that the Di2 "crash mode" caused major problems for George Bennet yesterday at the foot of the Zoncolan. NB he didn't crash, but it cost him a lot of time as riding the Zoncolan in the 11 tooth sprocket is just not possible.I'm not meaning to stoke the flames here - Di2 clearly has a place for certain riders - but the interview by the Telegraph Cycling Podcast with Bennett is quite something. He was VERY miserable! He was having a great Giro, high up on GC.
one of the many incidents I recall was a few years ago when the ToB went through Keswick. There were two riders in a chasing group and one of them went for another gear at the back. P-twang went his electric RD, right into the spokes. This was a race-altering event and I saw it on live TV, but it didn't make the highlights show despite being pivotal to the events of the day's racing.
And how on earth could that possibly be caused by Di2?
Brucey has some sort of amazing high-definition television that the rest of us do not have. For the rest of us it is near impossible in this world of concealed gear cables routed through the stem.....
the bloke riding the bike just pushed a button, the mech pushed itself into the spokes (quickly, and with maximum possible force, just like it was designed to do). How was that not the fault of the system? It would have been checked for sure before the race and yet mysteriously managed to do something different at exactly the wrong time.
the failures you think are unacceptable fall firmly into the 'easily preventable, lack of basic maintenance' category. Anyone with that kind of failure ought to get less than the level of sympathy that (say) a puncture would engender, if they were riding around on knackered tyres that were of the wrong type.
As I mentioned upthread, there are many failure modes in a Di2 system. Professional mechanics don't seem to be able to make it work reliably; in fairness maybe they don't yet have the right skill set, but I don't think that is the full story; I think the technology is just not well suited to the application.
cheers
BTW the gear cable that goes into the hub gubbins (wrapped twice or more around a small brass pulley) on a rohloff is less than 1.0mm in diameter. It can and does fray and break. When it is frayed even a little bit it is possible for the indexing in the hub not to work which can leave you between gears.
Seasoned riders take a spare cable of this sort on tour with them. IIRC it is rather fiddly to fit a new one and Rohloff now sell an 'easy fit' version which has the cable installed already on a spare pulley. The 'easy fit' cable kit costs about four times as much as the basic cable kit.
cheers
the bloke riding the bike just pushed a button, the mech pushed itself into the spokes (quickly, and with maximum possible force, just like it was designed to do). How was that not the fault of the system? It would have been checked for sure before the race and yet mysteriously managed to do something different at exactly the wrong time.
Di2 mechs have physical limit screws, exactly the same as mechanical ones. There is no way for the electronic part of the system to shift beyond the limit screws into the spokes.
Unless of course the hanger is bent or some other physical damage to the mech. How would a mechanical one have done better in the same situation?
Brucey has some sort of amazing high-definition television that the rest of us do not have. For the rest of us it is near impossible in this world of concealed gear cables routed through the stem to spot whether a tour rider whizzing by is using di2 or not but Brucey, using his special tv adapted by himself, can zoom into the minutest detail of passing bikes and not only that but remotely diagnose the cause of all breakdowns, which are of course attributable to di2.
I had a puncture last week, caused by di2, even though the bike I was riding at the time didn't have di2.
I had a puncture last week, caused by di2, even though the bike I was riding at the time didn't have di2.
BITD you were not allowed a race start in even the most lowly road race unless your bike was checked to make sure it was safe. When non-aero brake levers were the norm, cable failures were quite common inside the brake levers.the failures you think are unacceptable fall firmly into the 'easily preventable, lack of basic maintenance' category.
They may fall into the lack of basic maintenance category but the fall into the lack of maintenance that isn't obvious it needs doing until it's too late category.
Same with seat posts in steel frames. Welds in - oh, you should have regularly greased it.
BTW the gear cable that goes into the hub gubbins (wrapped twice or more around a small brass pulley) on a rohloff is less than 1.0mm in diameter. It can and does fray and break. When it is frayed even a little bit it is possible for the indexing in the hub not to work which can leave you between gears.
Seasoned riders take a spare cable of this sort on tour with them. IIRC it is rather fiddly to fit a new one and Rohloff now sell an 'easy fit' version which has the cable installed already on a spare pulley. The 'easy fit' cable kit costs about four times as much as the basic cable kit.
cheers
If the cable failed you would just take the mech off and the gear can be changed with a small spanner.
I've never heard of a frayed cable causing the indexing to fail so would be curious to know where you've got that information from. I could not really envisage how that could possibly happen - the gear change nut doesn't care what the cable is doing, but if it did happen you would just take the mech off and manually put it in whatever gear you choose to be appopriate for single speed.
It is quite fiddly to replace. I feel I have got the knack at doing it when I've done it, but it needs doing so rarely that by the time the next time comes I've forgot again... I think I've done it once in 7 years :)
BITD you were not allowed a race start in even the most lowly road race unless your bike was checked to make sure it was safe. When non-aero brake levers were the norm, cable failures were quite common inside the brake levers.Exactly - you look at them, because they're visible. It's fine for things you can see. But you can't see fraying of the inner because it's hidden inside the outer, just like
What is needed on many machines is something called 'proactive maintenance'. Apologies if this is b-obvious but if you blithely carry on riding your bike until even the stupidest most unobservant person would notice a problem, you have gone way past the point at which you should have maintained it. How do you know your brakes, chain and tyres etc are not worn out? You look at them, of course. Same goes for everything else. Nothing on a decent bike lasts for ever, if it did it would be built too heavy.
I've seen it happen several times and folk who ride their Rohloff much know to take the cable along as spare part. On all hubs made before a certain date (and quite a few afterwards) there is no external mech, the gubbins is built into the end of the hub; the wheel needs to come out and there is some disassembly required to get at the pulley or to manually set the gear. In any case the indexing works via some spring loaded detents; if the cable becomes draggy there is no reason for the shift mechanism to stop moving in one of the usual places, which leaves you between gears sometimes. A common cause of binding is that the frayed strands jam against the sides of the concertina tubes. I have even seen strands poking through the sides of the tubes.I have done - don't know exactly, but between 20k and 50k miles - and only changed the cable once or twice - and never had any problems, so I am going to venture forward the theory that it only frays or breaks if it has been installed badly/incorrectly*. There are specific instructions such as ensure the routing is smooth and doesn't have kinks, do not lube it, etc.
In an emergency (no cable of the correct type available) I have taken a standard gear cable inner, and removed two or three strands from it. With luck this makes it slim enough to fit in the grooves of the rohloff pulley.
Arguably it is bad design, in that it should have been possible to engineer something that didn't use a special (from memory 0.95 to 1.05mm dia) cable. Standard gear inners are ~1.2mm, just too big to go in the grooves. IIRC a genuine (old) SA 3s gear cable inner is thin enough for this job, but that is about the only standard cable that is.
yup it is fiddly alright. FWIW the cable is guaranteed to fail by fatigue; in common with a lot of cycle parts the way it is designed is very far from that which would give it an infinite fatigue life. As it happens the stresses in the cable are not wildly different from that seen in some models of shimano STI (e.g. the cable dia to pulley dia ratio) and one of my chums (who changes gear a lot) proved that it was unlikely that any inner he could buy would last more than ~150000 shifts in such an STI. These days he changes the gear inner at a mileage which corresponds with ~130000 shifts and this means he never has to deal with a knackered cable; replacing an unbroken cable is so much easier!
cheers
Arguably it is bad design, in that it should have been possible to engineer something that didn't use a special (from memory 0.95 to 1.05mm dia) cable. Standard gear inners are ~1.2mm, just too big to go in the grooves. IIRC a genuine (old) SA 3s gear cable inner is thin enough for this job, but that is about the only standard cable that is.er... I don't know whether you are referring to old ones, but mine uses cables that are thicker than standard gear inners. They are the same thickness as brake cables. i.e. thicker!
]
I have done - don't know exactly, but between 20k and 50k miles - and only changed the cable once or twice - and never had any problems, so I am going to venture forward the theory that it only frays or breaks if it has been installed badly/incorrectly*.Quoteyup it is fiddly alright. FWIW the cable is guaranteed to fail by fatigue; in common with a lot of cycle parts the way it is designed is very far from that which would give it an infinite fatigue life. As it happens the stresses in the cable are not wildly different from that seen in some models of shimano STI (e.g. the cable dia to pulley dia ratio) and one of my chums (who changes gear a lot) proved that it was unlikely that any inner he could buy would last more than ~150000 shifts in such an STI. These days he changes the gear inner at a mileage which corresponds with ~130000 shifts and this means he never has to deal with a knackered cable; replacing an unbroken cable is so much easier!
cheers
Yes it would fail due to fatigue... I can't find it now but I vaguely remember reading somewhere that it should be replaced every 20k miles. I wonder how many miles 130,000 shifts is on average?
I'd suppose that the same thing might happen with a Di2 system. There is a current sensor that backs the power off if the stall current is reached but until that kicks in the load in the mech is at least as much (actually a lot more) than even the most ham-fisted rider might generate in a mechanical system.
I'd suppose that the same thing might happen with a Di2 system. There is a current sensor that backs the power off if the stall current is reached but until that kicks in the load in the mech is at least as much (actually a lot more) than even the most ham-fisted rider might generate in a mechanical system.
I can't be the only one thinking of the Commodore 1541 disk drive.
Thinking more about the proposal to ban roadside assistance. Surely a progression of this is that a rider should use the same bike for all stages? Currently most pros will have 3 different bikes at a grand tour, a climber, an aero bike, and a tt bike. If you're not allowing road side assistance, doesn't all the same reasoning say one bike, one tour?
Would certainly mix things up, and could help the poorer teams. A bit like the idea of "one bike cross" in amateur cyclo cross...
if you did go that route, would you allow swapping cassette for the mountain stages? Would you allow adding clip on aero bars on the tt stage?
Maybe we should go back to the original plan where riders rode between the parcours of the stages... and did everything self reliant and oh wait that's the tcr... as you were...
J
I assume the mechanical disks are because you want to be able to take it apart with the S&S couplers? If not, seriously consider hydro. They probably fall (even further than mechanical disks!) foul of Brucey's ideals, but they work very well indeed, and need less faffing about with than mechanical disks...
Page 9 of this thread. I'm impressed. I've really enjoyed the discussion. Keep the comments coming.
Currently I'm leaning very much towards going for Ultegra Di2, with Mechanical disks. Sub compact chainset (46/30 from FSA), with IQ² power meters, On an S&S coupled Steel frame. With a nice SON dyno hub with Edelux II lighting...
Now I just need to finalise the design of the frame, and find the money for it all...
Keep the discussion going, I'm enjoying it.
J
Calling it a proposal is probably giving it too much importance. It was just Fotheringham's answer when asked what he thought could be done to make road racing more exciting. His logic was nothing to do with one bike for the whole race, it was that introducing the element of luck would create more drama. Get a puncture on a breakaway or your Di2 sends the mech into the spokes ;) just before the final sprint and the rider would be frustrated but the crowds would feel the tension, seems to be the idea.
Thinking more about the proposal to ban roadside assistance. Surely a progression of this is that a rider should use the same bike for all stages? Currently most pros will have 3 different bikes at a grand tour, a climber, an aero bike, and a tt bike. If you're not allowing road side assistance, doesn't all the same reasoning say one bike, one tour?
Would certainly mix things up, and could help the poorer teams. A bit like the idea of "one bike cross" in amateur cyclo cross...
if you did go that route, would you allow swapping cassette for the mountain stages? Would you allow adding clip on aero bars on the tt stage?
Maybe we should go back to the original plan where riders rode between the parcours of the stages... and did everything self reliant and oh wait that's the tcr... as you were...
J
I assume the mechanical disks are because you want to be able to take it apart with the S&S couplers? If not, seriously consider hydro. They probably fall (even further than mechanical disks!) foul of Brucey's ideals, but they work very well indeed, and need less faffing about with than mechanical disks...
Surely the same argument (with the possible exception of the better in every way bit ;) ) applied to Di2?I assume the mechanical disks are because you want to be able to take it apart with the S&S couplers? If not, seriously consider hydro. They probably fall (even further than mechanical disks!) foul of Brucey's ideals, but they work very well indeed, and need less faffing about with than mechanical disks...
Not really, it's more that on a the side of a mountain in Scandinavia, I can bodge working brakes with a spare cable, where as with Hydrolics, whilst they look to have a very high MTBF, I am concerned that the failure would be somewhat terminal.
I've been using cable disc brakes for 10 years, I understand them, and know their quirks. I know that Hydrolics are better in every measurable way, but if I lose the liquid due to collission, accident etc... I'm screwed. I can carry a spare brake cable.
J
Surely the same argument (with the possible exception of the better in every way bit ;) ) applied to Di2?
Wouldn't the ideal shifting system for a bike with S&S couplings be Sram Etap, because it's wireless?
Di2 and S&S couplers also has the advantage that I don't have to worry about gears going out of alignment everytime I reassemble the bike...
BTW hydro brakes will of course (sooner or later) fail to a leak. There is no maintenance regime (other than routine replacement of seal parts, and even then it isn't guaranteed) that helps to stave off this outcome.
I assume the mechanical disks are because you want to be able to take it apart with the S&S couplers? If not, seriously consider hydro. They probably fall (even further than mechanical disks!) foul of Brucey's ideals, but they work very well indeed, and need less faffing about with than mechanical disks...
Not really, it's more that on a the side of a mountain in Scandinavia, I can bodge working brakes with a spare cable, where as with Hydrolics, whilst they look to have a very high MTBF, I am concerned that the failure would be somewhat terminal.
I've been using cable disc brakes for 10 years, I understand them, and know their quirks. I know that Hydrolics are better in every measurable way, but if I lose the liquid due to collission, accident etc... I'm screwed. I can carry a spare brake cable.
J
A tired rider crashed during a long brevet I was riding in France a couple of years ago. His damage involved some lost skin and torn lycra. A Shimano hydraulic brake was toast and hydraulic fluid leaked onto his hand for the last day. He finished the fairly flat route to get to the finish.
Apart from the fact that screwed is not the word I would use in front of a lady, I am inclined to say that any collision or accident that leaves you with inoperable hydraulic brakes may well also leave you with much bigger complications of the type "inoperable body". The subset that includes hydro brakes us and excludes corporal damage may very well be infinitely small.
A tired rider crashed during a long brevet I was riding in France a couple of years ago. His damage involved some lost skin and torn lycra. A Shimano hydraulic brake was toast and hydraulic fluid leaked onto his hand for the last day. He finished the fairly flat route to get to the finish.
Oops; I really didn't think master cylinders were that fragile! Was that on drop bars? I am more used to the idea that in a crash the units can turn and most of the time the tips of the levers will break (aided by a suitably placed file cut to prevent the whole lever going but most would not want to do that on very expensive top end bike kit).
IME with low end shimano hyd brakes, the callipers weep oil inside. Virtually invisible to the eye, but the effect is very evident to the ear and in terms of performance. Replacing the pads works for a while, but only replacing the calliper works longer term. Ive got about 2 years of very regular (town) use out of a calliper. The performance is so good, I put up with this pita.
So the same as ceramic pistons?IME with low end shimano hyd brakes, the callipers weep oil inside. Virtually invisible to the eye, but the effect is very evident to the ear and in terms of performance. Replacing the pads works for a while, but only replacing the calliper works longer term. Ive got about 2 years of very regular (town) use out of a calliper. The performance is so good, I put up with this pita.
further to the above, I have stripped one of the failed shimano calipers I have. The leak was evidently massive; the pads were absolutely gopping wet with oil.
I can report that there was very clear evidence of corrosion in the grooves that retain the main piston seals. The piston bore and the grooves are bare, unprotected aluminium. There was also a little filiform corrosion on the caliper body, of a sort that is commonly seen if a little road salt gets under the caliper body paint in the winter.
A side effect of the corrosion was that the pistons became sticker than normal, because the groove with the seal in it was only just large enough to contain the seal to start with, and the seal became pushed more tightly against the piston. This meant uneven piston movement and a lack of piston retraction, as well as a worsening leak.
The corrosion in the seal grooves is relatively thick and flakey; oil would have had no trouble in seeping through it and out of the hydraulic circuit. I have seen similar corrosion in caliper bodies that use DOT4 fluid, too. The shimano mineral oil appeared not to provide much corrosion resistance; the corrosion was almost as bad (where it mattered) as with the DOT4 calipers, even though the DOT4 fluid absorbs water and is known to stimulate corrosion.
For commuting/winter training use, especially on roads with road salt, I would describe such failures as 'entirely predictable, and almost inevitable'; there is literally nothing to prevent salty water from penetrating and corroding the vital working parts of the caliper.
The caliper in question was a basic shimano hydro caliper, but the materials and construction used are not dissimilar to more expensive models. As I commented elsewhere in this thread, it is the fate of all hydraulic systems to fail to a leak. If you use them in the winter weather, this counts double, and on the road, more again. I would (without hesitation) describe the design as 'completely unsuitable for UK road conditions'.
If you must use disc brakes for commuting, it probably makes more sense to use mechanical discs. BB5 or BB7 may have their issues, but provided you keep the FPA from seizing, strip and lube the ramps/balls every year or two, and keep the cables in good shape, they ought to last a very long time indeed. Replacing hydro brakes every eighteen months would soon get old, as would the possibility that at any moment they could puke oil over the discs and pads and leave you with basically no brakes...
cheers
As I commented elsewhere in this thread, it is the fate of all hydraulic systems to fail to a leak. If you use them in the winter weather, this counts double, and on the road, more again. I would (without hesitation) describe the design as 'completely unsuitable for UK road conditions'.
As I commented elsewhere in this thread, it is the fate of all hydraulic systems to fail to a leak. If you use them in the winter weather, this counts double, and on the road, more again. I would (without hesitation) describe the design as 'completely unsuitable for UK road conditions'.
This is interesting, given that one of the supposed benefits of disc brakes is better performance in all weather conditions, hence they are often marketed as ideal for winter bikes. Must admit that calliper corrosion is not something that would ever have occurred to me as a potential cause for concern.
Here's some balance...
....a new caliper is £30. Can you get an equivalent level rim purchased and rebuilt for £30?
Rim wear is inevitable in the relative short-term. Caliper failure, not so much.
Here's some balance...
hmm not the word I'd have chosen.... ;)Quote....a new caliper is £30. Can you get an equivalent level rim purchased and rebuilt for £30?
does this caliper magically fit and bleed itself then? Does it clean up or replace the contaminated/worn disc too?.... ::-)
Most LBSs consider it most cost-effective to sling any faulty flat bar disc brake in the bin rather than mess about with it. One reason dropped bar hydro discs are not the same proposition is that you are in for a lot of DIY or a fairly substantial labour charge to get the things fitted and maintained. Many LBS are presently absorbing some of this because their customers don't expect an hour's labour charge for replacing a caliper. In point of fact it can take longer than that, depending on the hose condition, routing, and whether the bleeding goes well or not.
Busy workshops are increasingly making more realistic labour charges for certain jobs on modern bikes, as they realise they are going to go bust if they carry on subsidising them. For example I recently saw an 'aero' road bike in an LBS for recabling and all the cables (and indeed the brake calipers themselves) were hidden behind covers/within the frame/stem/forks etc. The customer chose not to go ahead with the job when he was quoted 'about £250, but it might be more because of the unknowns in this cable routing' for parts and labour on this job. I thought their estimate was quite realistic.QuoteRim wear is inevitable in the relative short-term. Caliper failure, not so much.
I own rims that have seen tens of thousands of miles of all weather use and are old enough to vote. I have also destroyed a rim (through wear) in a single alpine descent, under very exceptional circumstances. I don't think rim wear is quite as inevitable as some folk think.
I also think that by contrast spraying salty water onto certain materials combinations is going to have an effect for sure.
cheers
....It takes me about 5 minutes to bleed a disc brake....
I'm getting sick to death of others putting words into my mouth that I never said. For example I said that rims need not wear out very quickly. That is not to say that they cannot do so. But when I see folk (following advice) reject rim brakes as suitable for (say) summer touring 'because their rims will wear out and this is a problem' I would say that they are being very badly misinformed on several counts.
If it were swift and easy to bleed hydraulic brakes then fewer of them would end up in the bin. I've done about a dozen different bicycle systems and they all varied in layout and none of them 'easy'. Repeat performances were not often much quicker.
Busy workshops are increasingly making more realistic labour charges for certain jobs on modern bikes, as they realise they are going to go bust if they carry on subsidising them. For example I recently saw an 'aero' road bike in an LBS for recabling and all the cables (and indeed the brake calipers themselves) were hidden behind covers/within the frame/stem/forks etc. The customer chose not to go ahead with the job when he was quoted 'about £250, but it might be more because of the unknowns in this cable routing' for parts and labour on this job. I thought their estimate was quite realistic.
I also think that by contrast spraying salty water onto certain materials combinations is going to have an effect for sure.
perhaps you would like to tell us about how many different systems you have worked on and indeed how many you have installed with all the parts bone dry to start with....
cheers
Why would I want to do that?
We are talking about bleeding disc caliper. I find it easy and quick. You don't. Trying to get your willy out over it won't make any difference to your struggles.
I've read in several articles that running rim brakes on heavy loaded touring bikes can be problematic on long descents, primarily due to the rims heating the tyre up. I've not experienced it first hand. I prefer disc brakes, and have run them for the last decade. But I can see the logic behind it.
Fit deep-section aluminium rims, Velox rim tape and carefully-chosen brake pads and tyre blowouts go away. It works for tandems in the Alpes.
Why would I want to do that?
'cause otherwise folk might think it is just more hot air...?
The assumption that disc brakes are a much better idea on a touring bike when riding in the mountains is (IMHO) just that; an assumption.
eTap has interchangeable batteries between the front and rear mechs, so given one is going to fail first you always have a spare battery to get you out of trouble. Carrying a third on every ride seems overkill, though maybe it makes sense on a longer audax.
(And it might make sense as a routine charging strategy since they’re charged away from the bike)
I don't think that I have ever owned a product that contained batteries where they didn't do one or more of the followingTouch wood, but I've never had any of those happen in a phone or a laptop (or car except *, when abused by being repeatedly run dead).
- develop intermittent connections
- develop corroded connections
- lost capacity for no good reason, very early on in their supposed lifetime
- didn't hold their charge properly*
- failed outright with no warning and needed replacement
- leaked
- stopped working prematurely (or at all) in cold weather
there's also smaller batteries in with the e-tap shifter buttons. I don't expect these to be any more reliable than those in cycle computers, i.e. not very.
Batteries seem to play by the same rules as, say financial products; 'past performance is no predictor of future success' etc.
I don't think that I have ever owned a product that contained batteries where they didn't do one or more of the following
- develop intermittent connections
- develop corroded connections
- lost capacity for no good reason, very early on in their supposed lifetime
- didn't hold their charge properly
- failed outright with no warning and needed replacement
- leaked
- stopped working prematurely (or at all) in cold weather
All over the world folk are enslaved to a regime of battery charging/replacement; think about how many products you own with batteries and how much time you spend worrying about them and getting them recharged/replaced... what a waste of effort...
So the thought of using a system that has no less than three sets of batteries is the stuff of nightmares, to me....
cheers
all batteries work a lot less well when it is cold
it occurs to me that electric can openers are about as good an idea....?... ;)
You should take Kim's point seriously, she knows what she's talking about here.
The thing about system reliability is that you can easily find a whole chorus of people who have had no problems with a given system, even though it is so unreliable that, if (say) it was a safety critical part of a car or an aircraft, it would long-since have been recalled/grounded.
With any technology you need to balance the risks/downsides vs the benefits. With Di2, the benefits are (like the electric can opener) in most cases, for most users, slight, so it doesn't take much to tip the balance the other way.
Which presumably explains why (in stark contrast to previous "innovations") the big manufacturers still offer their toppermost groupsets with mechanical shifting options...
I could think of reasons why a top rider's electronic RD had enthusiastically stuffed itself into his back wheel. No-one engaged with that in the slightest, despite previous implications that they knew much better than I did how the system works.
All we have really had is folk saying " I bought it and it hasn't broken yet" on the pro side.
With Di2, the benefits are (like the electric can opener) in most cases, for most users, slight
You've given your view, you seem to be of the belief any bike tech after the original 5 speed group set is far to new fangled, far too complex, and just not needed. That's fine. You go ride your bike with the Drum brakes, the cable operated shifters, and all that, and I'll ride my bike, with the cable operated disc brakes, and the Di2 shifters, and we can all be happy?
J
This, in spades.
I could think of reasons why a top rider's electronic RD had enthusiastically stuffed itself into his back wheel. No-one engaged with that in the slightest, despite previous implications that they knew much better than I did how the system works.
The suggestion you came up with - that the motor was capable of such infinite torque it could *bash* *through* *its* *own* *limit* *screws* in the course of a single race was such utter twaddle it didn't warrant engaging with. Sorry.
QuoteAll we have really had is folk saying " I bought it and it hasn't broken yet" on the pro side.
But that's all that matters, isn't it? Whether it works for each individual?
QuoteWith Di2, the benefits are (like the electric can opener) in most cases, for most users, slight
No, you're projecting. You consider the benefits slight. Other people have different opinions and different priorities.
Yes, and you have completely ignored *MY* reasoning for thinking of going for Di2, and the advantages it gives to *ME* in my use case.
it occurs to me that electric can openers are about as good an idea....?... ;)
cheers
Brucey, your argument seems to be "Di2 isn't as reliable as X, therefore no one should ever ride it." ..not quite; what I'm saying is that it would be easy to be swayed by the alleged benefits of such a system without taking full account of the downsides, or if there is really much benefit to be had. For a good number of cycling uses, simple is good.
No one can win this argument, it can only ever go round in circles.
For those that have not been paying attention; this equipment is not as reliable as it should be, and there is little you can do in the way of pro-active maintenance to improve that, or to fix many of the problems by the roadside.
as usual that is not quite what I said. Amongst other things I came up with a perfectly reasonable suggestion as to why it might work OK on the workstand and not when you were actually riding the bike. Have another read why not.QuoteQuoteAll we have really had is folk saying " I bought it and it hasn't broken yet" on the pro side.
But that's all that matters, isn't it? Whether it works for each individual?
there are plenty of users for whom the system has not worked at all well. Like I have said before, a few happy people does not a good and reliable system make....I got bored of recording those professional cycle event in which the race was ruined by an avoidable failure of electronic shifting. Maybe I would have been better off listing those in which it definitely wasn't.
I said in most cases, for most users the benefits are slight. Which does nor excludes the possibility that for some folk that is not the case. You seem to have extrapolated your interpretation of it to mean something different. BTW the fact that some folk are happy may have little to do with any real benefits the system might have; that is the way "the emperor's new gears" will work...
Yes, and you have completely ignored *MY* reasoning for thinking of going for Di2, and the advantages it gives to *ME* in my use case.
Not ignored, just not made comment on every aspect. If you look I think you will find that I made a potentially very helpful suggestion regarding brake couplings which is relevant if you want to go down the hydro route. Thank you very much. You're welcome....
1) re shifter position. If you spend most of your time on tri-bars, I would suggest that you put your shifters on them, even if they are your only set of shifters (BTW there is more than one way of skinning this particular cat). Pardon me for stating the b.obvious, but you could get yourself another (quite nice) bike with the shifters exactly where you like, for the cost of a Di2 system.
2) re separable bikes. Yes with Di2 you get one wire for the gears at the break in the frame. Instead of two. Big whup. The reality of packing a bike that is separable is that the couplings for the gear wires are a bit annoying but usually not a very big deal; there are plenty of other things to worry about.
Upthread you asked about Di2 failure modes and I pointed out very early on that, being a complex system, there are very many potential failure modes on offer, few of which can be dealt with by the roadside.
It doesn't really matter how many people say "well I like it" and "mine hasn't broken yet"; it takes many thousands of such to be statistically significant or to counter just a few known failures, if you want to be sure of buying a properly reliable system.
You may have heard of "Occam's razor"; this (in essence) suggests that the most simple hypothesis that explains the known facts is most likely to be the correct one. I would propose that we employ "Occam's bike selector" as a principle, which suggests that the simplest touring bike that will do the job properly is likely to be the best one to use.
This means choosing your priorities carefully; for example being able to get where you are going with your bike is likely to be a deal breaker, so a separable bike makes sense if there really are no other options (NB rinko works well....). Having to move your hands 6" on the minority of your gear shifts... meh... perhaps not so much.
In arguing this particular corner I have had to put up with being mocked, derided, misquoted, misunderstood and countless other things besides. It is all rather tiresome and suggests to me that those arguing the other corner are finding it difficult to provide a decent counter-argument.
if you want to see Di2 systems breaking, just watch any live professional cycle event. On their way to their tour wins all those riders mentioned above experienced Di2 system failures. If you have a back up vehicle with a spare bike, or like sitting by the side of the road/in the bike shop as your companions ride off, great, otherwise I suggest you choose something different.
BTW if you have separable cables, with joiners, you don't need to do any adjustments to indexed gears when putting your bike back together. This is a non-problem which you are trying to 'solve' by spending a small fortune on a system that is not a good match for most people's touring needs.
I could go on but I'm very, very bored with this wrong-headed discussion indeed.
BTW I usually stop and help people with broken bikes, but I am disinclined to do so if they have a broken Di2 system. Why? Well leaving aside that (with few exceptions) they have a poorly adjusted set of priorities if they bought it in the first place, in contrast to most other gearing systems if it stops working there usually is f***-all you can do about it.
OMG! I have just read this thread- reason being I am seriously considering building a Di2 bike.
I have several of my own reasons for this- not least is that I can afford it LOL.
The end result of reading all this is I think I might need to also order an electric can opener to go with it ;D
George Bennet's GC went down the poop chute in this year's giro when his Di2 system went into 'crash mode' at the foot of a major climb. He hadn't crashed, BTW. There were plenty of others too. If you really want to know all the failures I suggest you do your own research. Like I said I got bored of it; pretty much every race had someone who needed a bike change and quite a few riders have got into such a bate that they have thrown their bike in the bushes. It'd be funny if it were not so sad. It was quite exciting when Froome's Di2 gears stopped working for no good reason on stage 9 of the TdF last year and Aru attacked, but I'd far sooner that stupid bike problems didn't affect race results.
There were plenty of others too. If you really want to know all the failures I suggest you do your own research.
Not the kind of progress that should be welcomed, except by the gullible and gadget-obsessed perhaps....
cheers
I see Di2 as being a bit like smartphones.
I mean, sure, they're a bucket of engineering compromises, and if you literally want a thing that just makes phone calls they're not as good as a trusty Nokia. But they open up new possibilities. When's the last time you saw someone using a DAISY player or a taxi meter?
You may have heard of "Occam's razor"; this (in essence) suggests that the most simple hypothesis that explains the known facts is most likely to be the correct one. I would propose that we employ "Occam's bike selector" as a principle, which suggests that the simplest touring bike that will do the job properly is likely to be the best one to use.
Since when has this thread been about touring bikes?
Since when has this thread been about touring bikes?
IIRC the OP asked in reference to a planned touring build.
Since when has this thread been about touring bikes?
IIRC the OP asked in reference to a planned touring build.
I thought it was about endurance racing?
Since when has this thread been about touring bikes?
IIRC the OP asked in reference to a planned touring build.
I thought it was about endurance racing?
Wasn't the Paris-Roubaix Sportive mentioned at one point - or am I thinking of somewhere else? World Championship Open Can competition? To let the worms out?
Rumbled... And there was me keeping my endurance racing aspirations quiet, limiting it to only mentioning it in half a dozen threads. Damn... or something...
Upthread I commented that based on the known principles of servo operation, I could think of reasons why a top rider's electronic RD had enthusiastically stuffed itself into his back wheel. No-one engaged with that in the slightest, despite previous implications that they knew much better than I did how the system works.
Jeez, that opens up a whole other can of worms: Garmin reliability :hand:
.
On the subject of unexpected failures, I had an interesting one on the Scottish ride at the weekend. I was keeping my Garmin topped up from a power bank via USB cable, but on Sunday afternoon, the cable failed (I have confirmed this diagnosis since I got home by charging it successfully with a different cable). Fortunately, I was close to the finish and there was enough juice left in the device to see me through, but if that had happened earlier in the ride, it would have been a problem - albeit very much a First World Problem in that the only down side would have been not having a record of my ride to share on Strava. I was carrying a printed routesheet as back-up for navigation purposes.
I know some will suggest this is further evidence for preferring a device like the Etrex that uses AAA batteries. And some will say it is evidence for preferring not to use unnecessary electronic gadgets at all. Both would be valid opinions but I'm happy enough with my choice to use a rechargeable device.
For what it's worth (ie not a lot), my four-year-old Di2 battery lasted the full 1,000km without needing to be topped up.
it might be that the low gear stop screws do wear on their seatings faster than normal in a Di2 system (and you would never know this was happening BTW, not until it was too late) and that the fault is difficult to detect, since the servo won't necessarily overshift when the bike is on the workstand.
Could you issue not be dealt with by a spare USB cable? I always carry three. So when I stop I can charge 3 devices at once (phone, iridium, Wahoo), so if one cable fails I can use on of the others. I also carry a pair of battery packs, as well as a usb-werk. Just in case.
Can you charge di2 while riding ?
On the subject of unexpected failures, I had an interesting one on the Scottish ride at the weekend. I was keeping my Garmin topped up from a power bank via USB cable, but on Sunday afternoon, the cable failed (I have confirmed this diagnosis since I got home by charging it successfully with a different cable). Fortunately, I was close to the finish and there was enough juice left in the device to see me through, but if that had happened earlier in the ride, it would have been a problem - albeit very much a First World Problem in that the only down side would have been not having a record of my ride to share on Strava. I was carrying a printed routesheet as back-up for navigation purposes.
Jeez, that opens up a whole other can of worms: Garmin reliability :hand:
The Garmin itself worked perfectly for the whole 1000km. It was the charging cable that let me down. That's why I thought it was interesting enough to be worth mentioning - not a failure mode I had anticipated.
To be fair, a USB A to micro-B cable is almost as easy to buy from a random shop as a pair of AA cells for the now legendary eTrex. Shame that Garmin are still using mini-B connectors, isn't it?
I think we’re still pre-clue.
Upthread I commented that based on the known principles of servo operation, I could think of reasons why a top rider's electronic RD had enthusiastically stuffed itself into his back wheel. No-one engaged with that in the slightest, despite previous implications that they knew much better than I did how the system works.
I'm interested in this, since I did have the problem of the rear mech over-shifting into the rear wheel a while ago. It happened when I shifted into the lowest gear at the start of a climb. The mech was damaged enough that it needed replacing. Expensive.
At the time, I presumed the most likely cause was a bent mech hanger, but since the mech hanger broke when it happened, it's hard to be certain. I'm open to considering other possibilities.
I honestly couldn't say whether or not the limit screws were properly adjusted.
On the subject of unexpected failures, I had an interesting one on the Scottish ride at the weekend. I was keeping my Garmin topped up from a power bank via USB cable, but on Sunday afternoon, the cable failed (I have confirmed this diagnosis since I got home by charging it successfully with a different cable). Fortunately, I was close to the finish and there was enough juice left in the device to see me through, but if that had happened earlier in the ride, it would have been a problem - albeit very much a First World Problem in that the only down side would have been not having a record of my ride to share on Strava. I was carrying a printed routesheet as back-up for navigation purposes.
I know some will suggest this is further evidence for preferring a device like the Etrex that uses AAA batteries. And some will say it is evidence for preferring not to use unnecessary electronic gadgets at all. Both would be valid opinions but I'm happy enough with my choice to use a rechargeable device.
For what it's worth (ie not a lot), my four-year-old Di2 battery lasted the full 1,000km without needing to be topped up.
...I'd have thought the crash mechanism would be a service part... but doesn't appear to be...
I am about to give up on Di2 and convert the bike to mechanical gears. I built this bike in 2012 and fitted it with the then state-of-the-art Ultegra 10 speed Di2. All was well for 5 years apart from the occasional accidental cable disconnect which was easily spotted and sorted. However, I have had 3 failures since then. All occurred suddenly when out on a ride and the cause was not obvious at the roadside, without access to mains power and/or the diagnostic computer.
Fault 1 was damage to the connection box near the bars when a cable was nipped by the clamp of a Garmin mount (my fault really) but it took a while to wear through to break the wire.
Fault 2 was sudden failure of the internal junction box in the down tube. I needed the LBS to diagnose that one as a visual examination of system didn’t provide any clues.
Fault 3 was sudden battery failure the day after showing steady green and only a short 15 mile ride the day before. Shifting both front and rear stopped dead after about 7 miles the following day. The described FD followed by RD failure didn’t occur. Got home, charged battery and it all works again, but for how long?
It’s a 7 year old battery so I would expect some loss of charge.
None of these issues cost much to fix but the hassle required to diagnose the causes has made me lose confidence in the system so I’m swapping to mechanical gears now.
The old style was Dura-Ace 7900. Ultegra has only ever been canbus*, although the 10 speed was orphaned fairly quickly.
(* Or what people call canbus. I've not seen been able to find any reverse engineering of what protocol or signalling is actually used. Sending power and data over two cores doesn't really match normal canbus)
Canbus does have a single wire mode (CAN-SW) There is some info on the signaling on the link I put in the previous post. (ETA: http://carltonbale.com/shimano-di2-everything-you-need-to-know/comment-page-11/#comment-134283 )
I am about to give up on Di2 and convert the bike to mechanical gears. I built this bike in 2012 and fitted it with the then state-of-the-art Ultegra 10 speed Di2. All was well for 5 years apart from the occasional accidental cable disconnect which was easily spotted and sorted. However, I have had 3 failures since then. All occurred suddenly when out on a ride and the cause was not obvious at the roadside, without access to mains power and/or the diagnostic computer.
Fault 1 was damage to the connection box near the bars when a cable was nipped by the clamp of a Garmin mount (my fault really) but it took a while to wear through to break the wire.
Fault 2 was sudden failure of the internal junction box in the down tube. I needed the LBS to diagnose that one as a visual examination of system didn’t provide any clues.
Fault 3 was sudden battery failure the day after showing steady green and only a short 15 mile ride the day before. Shifting both front and rear stopped dead after about 7 miles the following day. The described FD followed by RD failure didn’t occur. Got home, charged battery and it all works again, but for how long?
It’s a 7 year old battery so I would expect some loss of charge.
None of these issues cost much to fix but the hassle required to diagnose the causes has made me lose confidence in the system so I’m swapping to mechanical gears now.
Canbus does have a single wire mode (CAN-SW) There is some info on the signaling on the link I put in the previous post. (ETA: http://carltonbale.com/shimano-di2-everything-you-need-to-know/comment-page-11/#comment-134283 )
Which system is that? One of your comments references a fourth wire and separate power and shift wires. Modern Di2 only has two for everything.
FWIW all modern cars are equipped with fairly sophisticated electrical systems. One of the more common failure modes is that an older vehicle develops an electrical fault which either can't be fixed or can't economically be fixed; the result is that the car goes off to the scrappies. This (presumably) reduces the average age of the vehicle fleet on the roads (which may or may not result in lower emissions....) but constitutes an appalling waste of resources.
Are there many 'Di2 -only' framesets? Would you buy one?
The average age of a car at scrappage in 2015 reached 13.9 years, which is on a par with the 2014 performance. The lowest scrappage age, 13 years, was recorded in 2009, a result of government’s scrappage scheme.Obvious self-interest in the last two sentences, but stats seem broadly in line with the above.
Furthermore, the average age of a vehicle on the road has increased, from 6.8 years in 2003 to 7.8 recorded in 2015. This reflects both slower fleet renewal and the increased longevity of vehicles. This trend works against the uptake of new vehicles, which would bring greater environmental benefits. Newer vehicles also incorporate more advanced occupant and pedestrian safety features.
i can only feel sorry for Emma (on her multiday adventure (http://www.hope1000.ch/LIVE/Tracking_by_Trackleaders)), but she's a fighter that doesn't give up easily: https://www.instagram.com/p/CBtodhwFKNh/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link (https://www.instagram.com/p/CBtodhwFKNh/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link)
"The 13 stages of a mechanical defect:
1. Shock
2. Denial
3. Hack
4. Failure
5. Innovation
6. Failure
7. Actual mechanical intervention based on google / friends’ advice
9. Failure
10. Anger
11. Grief
12. Acceptance
13. Ride singlespeed until reaching a bike shop where a qualified mechanic can run the diagnostics and new Di2 battery can be purchased
Another wonderful day for the views, the smiles, the kindness of strangers, the support of friends, 🥰 and cycling!
But no pizza 😢 and the 3 hours at the roadside checking every connection turned out to be a waste of time. Still, I finally learned how to thread through some of those elusive sh1tty little cables.
Thanks to everyone who stopped and offered to help!"