Author Topic: LED room lighting (again)  (Read 71096 times)

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #75 on: 05 November, 2012, 06:02:47 pm »
Slightly tangential to this discussion, but Philips have just released their Hue system in the US.  This zigbee networked lamp is a good indication of where the future lies, with every light bulb we own being a network device that can be controlled individually and as groups. A certain large search engine company is heavily invested in this area as they really, really want to be in our homes (the Internet of things is getting ever so close now).

As a fully-paid-up Luddite, I find this very, very scary.

I absolutely can't wait until I can sit on my sofa and control everything electric in the house from my iPhone  :D

Kim

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Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #76 on: 05 November, 2012, 06:16:15 pm »
Slightly tangential to this discussion, but Philips have just released their Hue system in the US.  This zigbee networked lamp is a good indication of where the future lies, with every light bulb we own being a network device that can be controlled individually and as groups. A certain large search engine company is heavily invested in this area as they really, really want to be in our homes (the Internet of things is getting ever so close now).

As a fully-paid-up Luddite, I find this very, very scary.

As a fully-paid-up computer geek, I find it even scarier.

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #77 on: 06 November, 2012, 01:16:50 pm »
Slightly tangential to this discussion, but Philips have just released their Hue system in the US.  This zigbee networked lamp is a good indication of where the future lies, with every light bulb we own being a network device that can be controlled individually and as groups. A certain large search engine company is heavily invested in this area as they really, really want to be in our homes (the Internet of things is getting ever so close now).

As a fully-paid-up Luddite, I find this very, very scary.

As a fully-paid-up computer geek, I find it even scarier.

As a fully-paid-up computer geek and frequent luddite, I just want stuff to fecking work - and if it doesn't work, be relatively easy for anyone with a little bit of knowledge to fix without a frigging degree, a certification in network admin, or just throwing money at possibly expensive units without knowing why they're failing.

FWIW, I've now got a couple of the Toshiba MR16/GU5.3 LED jobbies I mentioned some posts back. It's only two units out of 12 in the kitchen (plus 6 more in neighbouring laundry/corridor/loo), but they look promising. As indicated by the numbers on the packaging, the white (3000K) is definitely brighter than the warm white(2700K) but that's looking *at* it from an angle, difficult to say what the effect is with the other halogens in situ. Colour-wise, IMO both are decent - my OH was complaining that the white was too white and hurt her eyes (or something) but when suggested that looking *at* it wasn't the best comparison seemed to be a litle more convinced. The warm white's less warm than the halogen of course, but not too far off. And defintely a lot brighter than a neighbouring unit where I dropped in a 20W halogen (vs the 50W halogens elsewhere).

Curiously the white one doesn't always come on  - flashes then turns off. Dunno if that's an effect of the transformer (which I may need to replace), or the unit's actually faulty. In the meantime I'll probably order another 5 or so of the warm whites and see if they do the same, and see how they light the place..

Somewhere on the toshiba.eu site there's supposed to be a useage/compatibility sheet, but I think this may be the same thing:
http://www.toshiba.eu/newlighting/Global/Products/pdf/transformers-compatibility.pdf?epslanguage=en-GB

- linked from
http://www.energytaskforce.co.uk/ourshop/prod_1744089-Toshiba-MR16-67W-neutral-light.html
...I like (!) this bit:
"You must change the transformer / driver! Traditional MR16 bulbs run off a 12V supply from a transformer.  All LED MR16 bulbs require installation of the correct 12V drivers for optimum operation.  We can help you to choose from the list of compatible 12V drivers.  Because of the cost of changing the 12V drivers, we recommend switching to GU10 fittings instead.  GU10 fittings are no more expensive than the 12V MR16 drivers."

Yeah, like the cost/hassle of replacing the driver is more than sorting out a sh*t-load of wiring in a ceiling..


LEE

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #78 on: 26 April, 2013, 01:35:43 pm »
I replaced my 10 50W GU10 Halogen spots in the kitchen for 10 3W LEDs (from LEDHUT).  They cost me over £60 but it means that I actually use them now.

My back room has 6 flush-fitting spot-lights all with the same LEDs and the bathroom has 3 of them.

They aren't quite as bright as the 50W halogens but they are good enough.

I have 3 LED "bulbs" in pendant lights over the dining table in the kitchen (I think they are 5W each).

What it means is that I can have all 21 bulbs turned on for a grand total of 67Watts.

It's got to the point now that I resent the 35W Halogen built into my shower extractor fan.

If there were any nice (ie. not pig ugly) LED candle-bulbs then I'd complete my migration to LEDs and CFLs.


It's entirely possible to have a house, with decent bright lighting, main lights, spot lights and accent lights, running with a total of less than 150 Watts (with every one of them turned on).

Pretty incredible really.


I wonder if the money I'm saving on lighting is just spent on the central heating, making up for the lack of heat from the lights.

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #79 on: 26 April, 2013, 02:16:55 pm »
If there were any nice (ie. not pig ugly) LED candle-bulbs then I'd complete my migration to LEDs and CFLs.

It's entirely possible to have a house, with decent bright lighting, main lights, spot lights and accent lights, running with a total of less than 150 Watts (with every one of them turned on).

This intrigues me, as the current house has CFL which we couldn't use in the old house as all lights, bar the stairs, were on dimmers.

In the old house we got used to turning the stair light on, running up/down in the dark and then turning it off.    When it blew we didn't even notice.    We used to only have the lights on in the room we were in, and because they were often dimmed too we were using minimal wattage.

In the current house, because of the age for CFL to come up to usable brightness, we have all the lights on at all times, and torches handy for looking in cupboards/waiting for the lights to come on.    I worked out the other day that our energy consumption on energy saving bulbs is considerably higher than it was when using proper bulbs.   

We do have some 50W GU10s, and although I tried replacing them the light quality coming out of the non-halogen bulbs was akin to skiing in a white-out/flat light.  i.e. I was dropping things on the floor instead of putting them on the worktops I thought I was looking at, and walking into cupboards that I thought were further away.  I tried CFL, but as they blew after 3 weeks I decided the Tesco Halogen at £1.50 for 4 were a better replacement than the cheapest CFL I could get my hands on at the time at £3.75 each (so considerable money for 12 months worth).


I'm at the point now of binning the energy saving bulbs and going back to proper ones (which were in stock in my local hardware shop last time I went in).   It's going to save me money on electricity, save me money on constantly replacing bulbs, save the planet on production and landfill, and also look better.     It will also mean the nice lampshades we have that throw patterns on the wall will work again - with energy saving bulbs they seem to just light the room with flat light as opposed to giving a defined pattern.

LEE

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #80 on: 26 April, 2013, 02:26:14 pm »
When a CFL blows (which never takes as long as the manufacturer states) it gets replaced with an LED equivalent.

CFLs were an interim solution while we waited for LED technology to step up.

LEDs are brighter (or at least as bright), lower wattage, instantaneous and longer lasting....but fairly expensive initially.

I must be on LEDHUT's Christmas card list by now.

Kim

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Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #81 on: 26 April, 2013, 02:30:59 pm »
In the old house we got used to turning the stair light on, running up/down in the dark and then turning it off.    When it blew we didn't even notice.    We used to only have the lights on in the room we were in, and because they were often dimmed too we were using minimal wattage.

A tungsten lamp on a dimmer is *highly* non-linear in terms of brightness to power consumption.  It'll be using a fair amount of power just to keep the filament at a dull glow.

Similarly, dimming high-wattage lamps to match lower wattage ones is extremely inefficient.

I won't get into dimmer curves.  That way lies madness...


As for crap CFLs, I chanced upon some 33W ones in Morrisons a few weeks ago.  They're actually brighter than a 100W tungsten lamp (though not quite as good as 150W), and are decently bright from switch-on.  They'll do.

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #82 on: 26 April, 2013, 02:49:29 pm »
Dimmer curves - that's what I thought to but sparky said otherwise and meterage of the mains on a test did show reduced power consumption when dimmed as opposed to full blast.


The Morrisons one might be worth a go....  but Mrs Nutty is keen for things to "look good" so the CFLs at the moment are the ones hidden in a candle shaped cover.    If I bought the old style curled tubing, I might as well wire my nadgers into the mains and read my book by the light of them glowing.    Please tell me these cheapos look good :)

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #83 on: 26 April, 2013, 03:26:16 pm »
These aren't too bad at start-up, and won't get yr nads wired up! (I use the Tornado 23w version but they're curly tubed)

http://www.johnlewis.com/philips-softone-energy-saving-es-bulb-20w/p151183
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Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #84 on: 26 April, 2013, 06:36:10 pm »
This is the LED "bulb" I have that's really good for supplementing daylight:

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200755048519 - Day White version.

The "corn cob" arrangement makes it very wide angle, though it's not a bright as a conventional 100W bulb.  The Warm White is dimmer still.

UPDATE:  One of these bulbs has blown now (all but the LEDs on the bottom don't come on), so eight quid for six months is not great value.  On the other hand, I don't know of any other light that so closely matches the colour of daylight, that I do like during the day in this room with a not-big-enough window.
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Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #85 on: 26 April, 2013, 06:49:34 pm »
This is the LED "bulb" I have that's really good for supplementing daylight:

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200755048519 - Day White version.

The "corn cob" arrangement makes it very wide angle, though it's not a bright as a conventional 100W bulb.  The Warm White is dimmer still.

UPDATE:  One of these bulbs has blown now (all but the bottom row of LEDs don't come on), so eight quid for six months is not great value.  On the other hand, I don't know of any other light that so closely matches the colour of daylight, that I do like during the day in this room with a not-big-enough window.

That's got to be the fugliest bulb on the planet.
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Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #86 on: 26 April, 2013, 06:58:12 pm »
Well, at least it looks interesting! 

By the way, you hardly see the individual LEDs when on, just the blob of the whole thing burnt on to your retina.
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Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #87 on: 26 April, 2013, 08:38:48 pm »
I'm currently using these in some of my light fittings
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B009Y7CMVK/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A11XEBUJSDP4OW
They are not fugly and are a very good straight replacement for candle bulbs!

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #88 on: 26 April, 2013, 11:37:12 pm »
, so eight quid for six months is not great value.

As per my comments upthread and why I'm seriously toying swapping the whole house back to proper bulbs.

I have a theory that as with 3D TVs and all other fancy gadgets, these new fangled CFL and LED* lights are nothing more than a marketing gimmick from the manufacturers to make us part with our money.     At least the old lightbulbs worked and could be relied on.



*Brother-in-law bought the LED ones.    Hideous blue light, torch beams instead of a glow, and when he took them to work and put them on the electrical monitor (for he had one on his workbench), he found the "5W LED" was actually consuming nearer 25W - so hardly any power saving over the bulb it was supposed to be replacing.

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Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #89 on: 14 May, 2013, 08:31:17 pm »
The kitchen has 5 R63 E27 spots in the ceiling, some 40W, some 60W. I took the plunge and ordered 5 x 3w E27 LED lamps from LED Hut, like this.  Arse. Much too small for the fitting. The cap is OK, obviously, but the lamp itself is weeny, and gets lost in the flush mounted ball type housing.

Any recommendations for an R63 size LED lamp?  30 degree spread apparently.
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Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #90 on: 14 May, 2013, 08:42:50 pm »
...  I tried CFL, but as they blew after 3 weeks I decided the Tesco Halogen at £1.50 for 4 were a better replacement than the cheapest CFL I could get my hands on at the time at £3.75 each (so considerable money for 12 months worth)....
Why is it that every CFL I've ever bought has lasted for years, but others blow 'em in no time? Did you put in CFLs & keep using the old dimmer switches?

BTW, you can get dimmers that work with CFLs.

And why do people complain about them taking forever to come on? I just switched on the light in this room - straight on, no hanging around. The one in the bathroom sometimes takes a while, but that's ancient. It was fine for years, up to a few months ago.
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Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #91 on: 15 May, 2013, 11:22:40 am »
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #92 on: 15 May, 2013, 03:06:14 pm »
...  I tried CFL, but as they blew after 3 weeks I decided the Tesco Halogen at £1.50 for 4 were a better replacement than the cheapest CFL I could get my hands on at the time at £3.75 each (so considerable money for 12 months worth)....
Why is it that every CFL I've ever bought has lasted for years, but others blow 'em in no time? Did you put in CFLs & keep using the old dimmer switches?

BTW, you can get dimmers that work with CFLs.

And why do people complain about them taking forever to come on? I just switched on the light in this room - straight on, no hanging around. The one in the bathroom sometimes takes a while, but that's ancient. It was fine for years, up to a few months ago.

Definitely not on a dimmer ;)  I'm not stupid.   Straightforward switch.   I think the problem that kills them is that I turn the lights off when I leave a room, so they are being turned off while still in the 5 minute startup time.

As for ages to turn on, maybe my body clock is different but the last bulb I timed (before throwing it away in disgust, was still a faint glimmer after I'd walked into the room, rummaged in a cupboard, gone back to a different room to get a torch, gone back to the cupboard and found the stuff, and then turned the light on as I'd finished.     We were turning the light on at least 30 minutes before using the room if we planned ahead.

simonp

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #93 on: 15 May, 2013, 03:12:26 pm »
I've yet to see an LED light fail. The light quality is fine. A bit bluer than incandescents but similar to sunlight. They are full brightness in a fraction of a second. IF a light fails after 6 months, probably you should get a replacement or refund. And they should be far more robust against short duty cycle use than CFLs.

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Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #94 on: 15 May, 2013, 03:29:31 pm »
I had an LED fail, as mentioned up thread.  It'll take more than that to put off the whole concept, though.
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Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #95 on: 15 May, 2013, 07:37:20 pm »
...  I tried CFL, but as they blew after 3 weeks I decided the Tesco Halogen at £1.50 for 4 were a better replacement than the cheapest CFL I could get my hands on at the time at £3.75 each (so considerable money for 12 months worth)....
Why is it that every CFL I've ever bought has lasted for years, but others blow 'em in no time? Did you put in CFLs & keep using the old dimmer switches?

BTW, you can get dimmers that work with CFLs.

And why do people complain about them taking forever to come on? I just switched on the light in this room - straight on, no hanging around. The one in the bathroom sometimes takes a while, but that's ancient. It was fine for years, up to a few months ago.

Definitely not on a dimmer ;)  I'm not stupid.   Straightforward switch.   I think the problem that kills them is that I turn the lights off when I leave a room, so they are being turned off while still in the 5 minute startup time.

As for ages to turn on, maybe my body clock is different but the last bulb I timed (before throwing it away in disgust, was still a faint glimmer after I'd walked into the room, rummaged in a cupboard, gone back to a different room to get a torch, gone back to the cupboard and found the stuff, and then turned the light on as I'd finished.     We were turning the light on at least 30 minutes before using the room if we planned ahead.
Turning 'em on & off all the time is wasteful. If you insist on doing that, don't buy CFLs. It breaks them quickly. It's cheaper & more energy efficient to leave them on unless you're leaving the room for a significant time.

In my experience, a very long start-up time is usually a sign that the CFL is getting old & work out. It also gets dimmer. New ones have always started fairly quickly, & they've got quicker over the years. In your case, it could be because you wreck them quickly.

Don't blame the lights for your misuse of them.
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Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #96 on: 17 May, 2013, 11:27:05 pm »
And there lies my gripe with so called "energy efficient" bulbs.    If I walk into a room, turn on light, find what I'm looking for and leave, then I'm using just a few seconds of energy.   If I want to protect my CFL and so leave it on all night so as to not "misuse them", I'm burning more energy then by having proper bulbs that are getting trickier to buy.

I have to admit that this thread is titled LED room lighting, and I haven't yet tried that, but Biggsy isn't the first report I've heard that has had a light fail quickly - and at the prices they are I really don't want to experiment with kitting a house out and finding that I've wasted money.

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #97 on: 18 May, 2013, 09:58:05 am »
There is a great variety to both CFLs and LED bulb replacements.  I've bought CFLs both in the past, and recently which have varied greatly in how fast they'll start up, and for how long they'll continue to start up fast.

I had one in my living room which was bright, and got that bright in only a few seconds, but after a couple of years, was taking a significant amount of time to get to a reasonable brightness level, over five minutes.  This is probably one of the lights in my house which gets used the most, and was rarely turned on and off in a short period of time.  Admittedly an incandescent would possibly have not lasted as long, but given the price of high brightness CFLs, this one over its useful lifetime probably cost more than equivalent incandescents would have.

On the other hand, a really bright incandescent bulb often gets very hot, and can't be used in some fittings, typically enclosed ones, because of this.  Even quite bright CFLs rarely get that hot.

We've bought a handful of LED lamps at work, experimenting with task lighting, because I wanted something that was very bright, but didn't generate too much heat (not good when you're inches away from the lamp).  We found some cheap ones, which are basically a hundred odd small LEDs in one unit, and whilst they're OK, they aren't really bright enough for this sort of function, probably being roughly equivalent to a 30W incandescent (but only 4W or 5W iirc).  I did find a ludicrously expensive unit which provides plenty of light (probably equivalent to a 150W incandescent), but it's also very large and heavy, and the cheap lamp fitting we were using couldn't really hold it up!  It was over £50 iirc.

Looking around on places like eBay and Amazon, there are a lot of cheap LED lights, but they often get very indifferent reviews, and high failure rates don't seem to be uncommon with cheap units.  Given the relatively high costs (even of the cheap ones), I think I'd stick with buying them from a reputable supplier, but decently bright bulbs at a moderate cost are still relatively rare, and for some of the more unusual sizes, can be damned near impossible to find.

I wonder how well the brightness will last in some of these units.  Whilst there are testing bodies carrying out certification of LED bulbs, by their very nature even with accelerated testing, it takes a long time to test how well an LED will retain its brightness (months of continuous operation), so many of the reputable manufacturers haven't released fully compliant devices yet.  Over driving the LEDs does produce brighter models, but at the cost of reduced lifetime, and lower efficiencies. There's a risk that less reputable suppliers will chuck out these sort of models, and give the technology a bad name.
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Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #98 on: 18 May, 2013, 10:38:40 am »
LEDs will last a very long time indeed if not over-driven.  The product I bought was a random unbranded Chinese job.  I look forward to the "corn cob" type LED bulbs being available from reputable makes and retailers.  Meanwhile, I don't expect value for money from this particular kind of thing.  LED spotlights are something different - should find good ones more easily.
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Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #99 on: 18 May, 2013, 03:35:01 pm »
It was the LED spotlights that my brother-in-law had.  They were a very distinct LED blue light, gave very torch-like beams instead of the wider beam the original halogens gave out.   Nobody liked the light in that room and he was laughing at the experiment into the newer technology, thinking of going back to normal bulbs.     

From memory the halogen bulbs he took out were 25W, and when he took the LED to work and checked it on the bench he found the claimed 5W LED was pulling more of a 15-20W.   Not much energy saved, but a lot of usable light output reduced.