Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Camping It Up => Topic started by: Wowbagger on 19 July, 2012, 02:13:34 pm
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I've tried Thermarest and Exped. Exped were definitely the better for sleeping on, but, along with a number of others on teh forum, mine leaked goose down. Today I've been told that my money is being refunded, even though it was almost 3 years ago that I bought it. So I'm going to buy something to replace it.
However, it seems that the Downmat with integrated pump has a limited shelf-life and of course, whereas it seemed to be all the rage two or three years ago, something else may well have been developed.
What does the panel believe is the best mattress for cycle camping?
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Must admit, I've been thinking about the synmats for when this current crop of downmats fail. Not sure about how they are filled though.
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I’ve got a synmat ultralite. It doesn’t have an integral pump so I blow it up using the Pillow Pump bought separately which does the job quite quickly – I like a decent pillow regardless so might as well have one that does double duty. You can blow it up by mouth but I’d rather keep moisture out of its innards.
It’s early days (it has only been on two trips for a few nights so far), but it’s light (around 400g I think) and is the size of a 500ml bottle of water. I find it very comfy but then I never had a Downmat to compare it to - just a Blacks thermarestalike. It does only have a 2-year guarantee, but it is made out of ultralight material so I am trying to be a bit careful with it.
The only thing that is a bit disappointing is it doesn't deflate as easily as I hoped it might - after years of forcing the air out of my thermarestalike when rolling it up, I still find myself spending around the same amount of time getting all the air out of the synmat in order to make it fit in its stuffsac.
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http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Sleeping-Pad-Reviews/Ratings
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http://cascadedesigns.com/therm-a-rest/mattresses/fast-and-light/z-lite/product . Lighter and cheaper than any self-inflating mattress, never leaks, no pumping or inflating required. I also use mine as a knee pad for any camp chores that require kneeling, and as a pad to sit on. The only downside is that it does not pack down nearly as compactly as a self-inflating mattress, which can be an issue if your tour involves air travel.
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We have a Synmat 7 DLX. It's great.
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I've just ordered one of these:
http://www.theoutdoorshop.com/showPart.asp?part=PN20453
That's one that uses the stuffsack as an inflating device. Hopefully it will arrive in time for this weekend's jaunt to Great Malvern
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I've just ordered one of these:
http://www.theoutdoorshop.com/showPart.asp?part=PN20453
That's one that uses the stuffsack as an inflating device. Hopefully it will arrive in time for this weekend's jaunt to Great Malvern
Is it the Blues Festival at Upton you are heading for?
If you need to borrow a thermarest or a short Downmat I can help I am very close to Malvern.
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I've just ordered one of these:
http://www.theoutdoorshop.com/showPart.asp?part=PN20453
That's one that uses the stuffsack as an inflating device. Hopefully it will arrive in time for this weekend's jaunt to Great Malvern
Is it the Blues Festival at Upton you are heading for?
If you need to borrow a thermarest or a short Downmat I can help I am very close to Malvern.
No, Jane & I are just off to do a bit of Elgar research. I've got a spare Downmat, thanks. I bought one for me and one for Mrs. Wow.
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Elgar Research (http://www.malverntrail.co.uk/elgar.htm)
Book: Elgar The Cyclist (http://www.elgarfoundation.org/index.php/the-elgar-shop/books/product/29/95/Books/Biographies/elgar-the-cyclist-a-creative-odyssey)
With the Sunbeam (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FPpiWNARTt4/ShxLHp7QiYI/AAAAAAAAJaI/PEn5xHJShOM/s400/ElgarBike1.jpg)
and again (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-fvvEJfjDt9A/TzQDSvdfMJI/AAAAAAAACWs/sbX4nQTLmp4/s1600/ZZZ+MUS+Elg1903RoyalSunbeam+Mr+Phoebus.jpg)
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He lived for a while in a house just across the common from me at Napleton or so the blue plaque on the wall proclaims.
Pauline had the book of his rides and we did a few of them, unfortunately she loaned it someone and it was never returned.
Where are you camping at Blackmore? The butchers up the road from there at Handley Swan do a really nice pork pie.
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Book: Elgar The Cyclist (http://www.elgarfoundation.org/index.php/the-elgar-shop/books/product/29/95/Books/Biographies/elgar-the-cyclist-a-creative-odyssey)
You almost made me have an accident there! Then I realised that rather than pay postage, it might be more enjoyable to pay for a train ticket. :thumbsup:
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Much better idea. :thumbsup:
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Hmmm. Looking at the Thermarest Xtherm. Interesting. No feathers and the greater number of baffles probably means less pressure on each one leading to, perhaps, less chance of failures.
Hope I don't need one for a few years yet though.
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I thought about the Xtherm or Xlite. Couldn't find anything about the Xtherm on line, but a few reports of the Xlite leaking on 1st use.
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So many people talking about built in pumps and inflation devices, why on earth haven't these companies come up with a mainstream bike pump compatible inflatable mat? How hard can it be to fit a suitable valve to these things?
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Market for an adapter methinks... :)
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So many people talking about built in pumps and inflation devices, why on earth haven't these companies come up with a mainstream bike pump compatible inflatable mat? How hard can it be to fit a suitable valve to these things?
According to an Exped rep it is two fold. First is volume, the mat requires high volume and it would mean pumping for a long time to fill the mat. Second is pressure, they fear that once the mat is filled some would continue pumping and over-inflate the mat and cause damage to the seams. I have known a case of the second part someone pumping one up to 40psi to find a leak and busting the seam.
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That's the point about mattresses: they a high-volume low-pressure devices whereas a bike pump is designed to provide for low volume and high pressure.
There's possibly the added issue that most bike pumps will seal their washers with grease. Is it possible that tiny oily particles might find their way in to contaminate the down?
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...First is volume, the mat requires high volume and it would mean pumping for a long time to fill the mat...
My word that rep had never tried inflating one of his own mats using the built in pump then. About a thimble full of air with every stroke, takes forever. Not to mention that every stroke involves whole mid and upper body movement, it's like doing a pilates workout. I might get good detailing on my pecs using the built in pump and maybe tone up my six pack but I could do it quicker and with less calories burned with a bike pump, fact.
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You can use one hand only and it's probably quicker. Support your body weight on your left hand and pump with the right. More pumping strokes but it does not involve 2 minutes of press-ups.
I took a bit of amusing video of Charlotte pumping up an Exped downmat once but it was really too dark to be properly useable. Besides, the following morning she took some photos of me emerging from the water after skinny-dipping, on the occasion that she asked, with a raised eyebrow "Cold, Peter?"
I can't think what she meant.
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Are we still on the subject of camping mats?
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...First is volume, the mat requires high volume and it would mean pumping for a long time to fill the mat...
My word that rep had never tried inflating one of his own mats using the built in pump then. About a thimble full of air with every stroke, takes forever. Not to mention that every stroke involves whole mid and upper body movement, it's like doing a pilates workout. I might get good detailing on my pecs using the built in pump and maybe tone up my six pack but I could do it quicker and with less calories burned with a bike pump, fact.
The rep in question did it in 28 seconds as a demonstration at the Outdoor Trades Show.
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I'd like to jump in here and ask a more general question about camping mattresses. I've never had one and am finding the variety a bit baffling, not to mention that some of them are rather expensive to my mind. But I need to get one by, well, Monday!
So I see three basic types:
Foam mats which simply unroll, like those which might be used for yoga, say. Cheap, light, pack small, but perhaps not too comfy?
Self-inflating mats of various lengths and thicknesses. Bit more expensive but still affordable, pack small but not as light as foam rolls. Claim to inflate automatically with an automagical valve ???
Inflatable ones you need to pump up.
As far as I'm aware these are all filled with air (where they are not solid foam) but now I hear of down-filled mats. And I see prices into three figures. Could someone give me a quick guide without salesman-spiel? TIA!
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So I see three basic types:
Foam mats which simply unroll, like those which might be used for yoga, say. Cheap, light, pack small, but perhaps not too comfy?
Foam mats don't pack small, they are rather bulky. But they are very lightweight, so you can just strap them onto the top of your bag without worrying about them getting wet or punctured etc.
Though as you say, maybe not comfy. And maybe not very warm - they don't insulate you from the cold ground much.
Self-inflating mats of various lengths and thicknesses. Bit more expensive but still affordable, pack small but not as light as foam rolls. Claim to inflate automatically with an automagical valve ???
Self-inflating mats have a kind of compressed foam inside them, usually the valve isn't very magical. When you unroll them and open the valve this foam will expand/inflate a bit. But they probably won't inflate completely, you will have to blow into it a bit to get it firm enough.
FWIW I'm happy with my Thermarest Prolite self-inflating mat. Comfy and warm enough for me, and packs pretty small. And maybe more robust than some of the lighter weight mats.
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I'm quite happy with my Gelert 3/4 Thermarest knock-off. The cardinal rule is to put your feet (which don't have any mattress to rest on) on your panniers, lest they get very cold. DAHIKT.
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I've completely ignored the interesting discussion on this thread and just ordered up an Alpkit Airo 180.
I wanted something light and it is the cheapest self inflating full length one (at £40) around the 500g mark
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The Exped mats (Downmat and Synamt) work like a (really well engineered) conventional airbed, but contain a light down or synthetic foam filling, which massively reduces air circulation within the mat. This makes them much more insulating than a simple inflatable matress.
I reckon the Downmat is utterly brilliant - it's the first thing I've seen that packs to a decent size that I (as a side-sleeper with hips and shoulders) can get a proper night's sleep on, and it's good for FYBO temperatures. Of course, mine hasn't started leaking feathers yet, which several forumites have suffered from. AFAIK the Synmat doesn't have this problem.
Self inflating mats self-inflate because you put energy into the system by compressing their foam when you roll them up, and they inflate when it's allowed to spring back into shape by opening the valve to let air in. No magic involved.
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I'm always that knackered after a day riding with touring gear, that my Thermarest is supremely comfortable. Good piece of kit. If you can't get to sleep on one, ride further!!
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What does the panel believe is the best mattress for cycle camping?
Mrs B. :demon:
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Another popular option that hasn't been mentioned already is the 'beer mat'. Apparently, if you consume a sufficient quantity of beer, you can get a good night's sleep with a sleeping bag alone...
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Another popular option that hasn't been mentioned already is the 'beer mat'. Apparently, if you consume a sufficient quantity of beer, you can get a good night's sleep with a sleeping bag alone...
Yeahbut, the required 3 hedge inspections at 1 a.m. 3 a.m. and 5 a.m. tend to spoil it a bit.
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Another popular option that hasn't been mentioned already is the 'beer mat'. Apparently, if you consume a sufficient quantity of beer, you can get a good night's sleep with a sleeping bag alone...
Yeahbut, the required 3 hedge inspections at 1 a.m. 3 a.m. and 5 a.m. tend to spoil it a bit.
Less of a problem if you drank sufficient to have fallen asleep in said hedge to start with.
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:-X
*Admits nothing*
:-X
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Another popular option that hasn't been mentioned already is the 'beer mat'. Apparently, if you consume a sufficient quantity of beer, you can get a good night's sleep with a sleeping bag alone...
Yeahbut, the required 3 hedge inspections at 1 a.m. 3 a.m. and 5 a.m. tend to spoil it a bit.
Less of a problem if you drank sufficient to have fallen asleep in said hedge to start with.
Ah, that would cut down the weight a bit; no mat, no sleeping bag, no tent...
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1) Closed cell foam mats,like ye olde yellow Karrimat. Typically just under 1cm thick & roll up, though there is also the Thermarest Z-lite that folds concertina fashion, and has an embossed eggbox pattern that's meant to be a bit more comfortable.
Roll size about 50 x 17cm. Tough, don't absorb water, light, fairly good insulation, but not great comfort. These are the lightest, and the cheapest by some long way.
2) Self inflating mats. Ones you'd use for bikepacking are 1 or 1.5 inch thick open cell foam bonded to an airtight cover. When you open the valve the foam expands drawing the air in (top-up by mouth often required). When you lie on it, the foam prevents the rest of the mat bulging, allowing the air to keep you off the ground.
Rolls up to about 27cm x 12-13cm. If the foam is unperforated, warmth is similar to a decent closed cell foam mat, but if the foam has holes punched in it for lightness warmth suffers, so the lighter versions aren't really adequate for winter. Comfort is good if you sleep on your back or front, but if you are a side sleeper your hip can bottom out. Can be punctured (repairable), or the foam and cover can delaminate (not). If the mat delaminates, it's not much better than nothing.
3) Insulated air mats, generally 6-9cm thick.
Uninsulated air beds are cold because of convection. To prevent convection, either an insulator (down or synthetic equivalent) is added, or the air chambers are divided up into small segments by internal baffles. Down insulated mats require pumping rather than blowing to keep the down dry, and occasionally the filter that's meant to keep the down inside when you deflate the mat can leak. It's better to pump synthetically insulated mats too, but it's OK to blow up baffled mats by mouth.
Roll size is between 23x9cm for a smaller baffled mats up to 26x16cm for a larger insulated mat. Comfort is very good due to the thickness. Some people prefer the normal longways tubes over the crossways tubes of the Thermarest baffled mats. Can be punctured (repairable), and occasionally the internal baffles can fail causing bulging (not repairable, but not as much of a problem as delamination on a self inflating mat).
There are very few cheap insulated air mats around - just the Alkpit Nemo than I'm aware of,and this isn't really insulated enough for winter/early sling/late autumn use.
In the specifications, the "R-value" is the indicator of warmth, higher values being warmer*. At a temperature of about zero, and for me using a lightweight down bag & silk liner, a mat with an R-value of 2.5 (thermarest Prolite 4) is marginal, feeling cool, but not so cool I don't get any sleep. YMMV (and it generally does vary). A mat with an R-value of 5 or more will be warm enough for almost all people in all likely conditions.
If you look at Thermarest, don't ignore the Women's versions. They are about 15cm shorter than full length men's versions, but are generally warmer.
Short (120cm) mats are adequate for many people most of the time. They reach from shoulder to knee, the head's on a separate pillow, and the feet don't need very much (empty panniers or a fleece will do).
I've just ordered a Thermarest Xtherm, as the optimum combination of size, weight and warmth
[edit]
There are two versions of R-value - American, quoted above, which are measured in BTUs, square feet, hours and °F, and Euro/ISO, measured in Joules, square metres, seconds, and °C. They differ by a factor of 5.7, so R=1 (ISO) is equal to R=5.7 (US). Usually it's fairly obvious which type of R is given.
The XTherm is doing well
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If you don't want to carry too much, Mr Ultralight Bicycle Touring (http://ultralightcycling.blogspot.co.uk/) reckons a piece of bubble wrap is all you need, or for a bit more luxury you could go for a balloon bed (http://www.balloonbed.com/mk2.html)
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That's never going to work, unless you can estimate the rate at which your level of self control allows you to restrain the impulse to pop the bubbles, and pack extra to make up for bubble loss. I expect the spare bubblewrap will take up serious volume on long tours.
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I've probably got enough bubble wrap to make a sleeping bag, never mind a mat, but it's all slightly popped. So I don't think that's the answer for me.
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I've just bought a Karrimor X Lit inflatable mattress from Field and Trek to try: http://www.fieldandtrek.com/karrimor-x-lite-inflatable-air-mattress-782143
It's instead of my ageing Thermarest Prolite 3 S because I wanted something lighter and with a smaller packed volume. I'm not expecting much, to be honest, but it was comfy enough for a nap in the car park after the Mersey Roads 24 at the weekend. Time will tell if it will be durable - the material is very thin and I think I could do with a lightweight groundsheet to go under it. Being completely un-insulated I guess it won't be warm enough for winter, but should be fine for summer use.
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I went down to Cotswold Outdoor because I know they give a 15% discount with a CTC card - but I didn't use it, because I ended up buying a Mountain Equipment Helium mattress which was, apparently, reduced by about £30, making it a price twice what I had intended to pay even if still only half what some here spend. I guess I'm just a sucker for commercial opportunity. ::-) Whatever the cost, it seems after a quick trial to be comfy and it's definitely light, though I'd probably be prepared to sacrifice a little thickness in return for some more width - I've lost, if I ever had, the art of sleeping in a straight line.
I've packed it and everything else I think I'll need in my panniers as I was intending to go camping tomorrow but now I realise I haven't booked the campsite. ::-) Well, I'll see tomorrow. Packed kit seems surprisingly compact, way smaller than typical shopping - what have I forgotten? :o
Edit: The thing I had forgotten was - my sleeping bag. Nothing important, then. :facepalm:
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Mostly, if you turn up on a bike with your kit, they will try to fit you in somewhere. Campsites that don't, or try to charge cycle campers the same as they do a 4*4/caravan/awning owner are run by complete gits.
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When I got the Alpkit Airo and weighed it, it is more like 700g in the compression sack
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Mostly, if you turn up on a bike with your kit, they will try to fit you in somewhere. Campsites that don't, or try to charge cycle campers the same as they do a 4*4/caravan/awning owner are run by complete gits.
On my recent Ireland tour one campsite just over the border with NI quoted me £26 for one night. As it was early in the day I cycled on and ended being directed to a small farm where the owner directed me to a nice grassy part to camp. He looked at me most indignantly when I offered payment.
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I reckon you should be getting an en-suite shower and breakfast included in the price for £26!
I remember two cycle-camping expeditions of bygone days (1990-ish... ) with a mate, once we camped behind the pub in Aust (no, I wasn't living in Bristol then!) for £1.50, the other time we made our way to a campsite marked on the OS map somewhere on the edge of Salisbury Plain and found it was totally occupied by Boy Scouts! Apparently it had belonged to them for a zillion years and shouldn't really have been marked on the map at all - but they let us stay there for free and gave us a cup of tea in the morning. :thumbsup: <moan>I suppose now that would against the law.</moan>
When I got the Alpkit Airo and weighed it, it is more like 700g in the compression sack
It does say on their website "Real World Packed Weight (gr) 653" although what that implies about their other quoted weight is perhaps best left to the imagination.
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When I got the Alpkit Airo and weighed it, it is more like 700g in the compression sack
It does say on their website "Real World Packed Weight (gr) 653" although what that implies about their other quoted weight is perhaps best left to the imagination.
It "feels" light however
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Our Exped DownMats (new in May 2012 to replace our first set) have started to fail again - small amounts of feathers flying out with each deflation. I contacted Exped USA, who are based up the road in Washington, and they've agreed to replace them immediately, even before seeing them. And they've sent us a pre-paid FedEx label to cover the cost of postage. Their customer service is outstanding. It's a shame their mats aren't as durable as we'd hope. Hey ho, let's see how Exped DownMats Mark III stand up to the job Down Under. If this set fail, it may be time to consider less comfortable, more durable alternatives. (Scary thought.)
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That's why I got a Synmat UL, because of reading of yours and others experiences...
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This one was a bit bulky..
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8458/7987975357_c296c67da5_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidmam/7987975357/)
loaded (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidmam/7987975357/) by davidmamartin (http://www.flickr.com/people/davidmam/), on Flickr
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Well, I've had the chance to compare an Alpkit Numo with a Phat Airic this week. I have to say I prefer the
Phat Airic. IKept losing the pillow with the Numo, but it is very comfortable. For touring ,I'd be quite happy to take one. It is very noisy though.
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Our Exped DownMats (new in May 2012 to replace our first set) have started to fail again - small amounts of feathers flying out with each deflation. I contacted Exped USA, who are based up the road in Washington, and they've agreed to replace them immediately, even before seeing them. And they've sent us a pre-paid FedEx label to cover the cost of postage. Their customer service is outstanding. It's a shame their mats aren't as durable as we'd hope. Hey ho, let's see how Exped DownMats Mark III stand up to the job Down Under. If this set fail, it may be time to consider less comfortable, more durable alternatives. (Scary thought.)
Update: my new (Mark III) Downmat started to fail about a month ago. It deflated completely during the night and we narrowed the leak down to the inflation valve, which was ever so slightly deformed in the plastic around the seal. There also seems to be something Not Quite Right with the built-in inflation pad as it shouldn't allow the air to escape in that direction in the first place. Woolly managed to botch a patch with a small section of the fabric patches provided by DownMat (we have loads of the things given the number of mats we've gone through) and it's now staying up, as it were. But it's not very impressive. I've not told DownMat yet.
I shall be investigating the Thermarest X-Therm when we're back!
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Hey,
Look, girls and boys, we're being spammed by The Fonz!