Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => GPS => Topic started by: nobby on 11 June, 2008, 07:57:39 am
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Is anybody using one of these on their bike?
The Ultimate GPS system with Ordnance Survery maps - Satmap : way ahead (http://satmap.com/)
I use Ordnance Survey maps and am thinking of switching from paper to electronic. I am a camping tourist, not terribly interested in off road excepting the very occasional bridle path, and I'd like to stick with OS 1:50,000.
I'd appreciate any advice or opinions, please.
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My first reaction was, brilliant, I want one. However, the more I think about it and the more I prefer my current solution. I use Tracklogs digital mapping. Its excellent for planning routes in the first place and I then print out the relevant sheets at 1:50,000 taking care to take in a reasonable surrounding area where I can. I print the sheets back to back and end up with a very compact route map. I can also add waymarks of my own showing planned campsites, potential lunch stops or places of interest etc. I particularly like the option to add the telephone number of campsites to the map. (I guess you could probably do that on this device, I didn't read all the details).
Back to the Active 10, how would you charge it on a camping trip? I would also be worried about leaving it unattended on the bike, I just know I would do that sooner than later.
Just my few pennies worth.
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Looks interesting but very expensive when you look at the mapping.
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It would be OK for static navigation - ie, looking at when you are stopped, like an electronic map. But, and I think this point has been made by others on previous threads; OS level detail just doesn't work for real-time, on the move navigation on a bike.
So much of your attention goes on riding your bike, you just haven't got time to take the detail in, which is wobbling around on your handlebars, and is probably very small.
Damn - I find it hard enough to read routesheet instructions sometimes.
The maps on those Garmin models that have maps, are deliberately sparse. There's enough info there for me - but no more, so its not cluttered, easy to interpret at a glance, and shows what I need to know for navigation - namely, the roads and my route.
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It would be OK for static navigation - ie, looking at when you are stopped, like an electronic map. But, and I think this point has been made by others on previous threads; OS level detail just doesn't work for real-time, on the move navigation on a bike.
Sounds like you haven't used one. I was quite well travelled prior to buying mine but the rides I did in areas I've never ridden before were exclusively on A and B roads...and small towns encountered on route would be missed because I'd follow the road signage which points to the bypass rather than through them.
But now huge chunks of rides are on country lanes that I'd never have used without the A10...the routes are plotted on my Memory Map then uploaded and the difference in the style of route pre and post A10 are crystal clear. If you were to follow me riding through an area full of unsigned country lanes that I've never even been near before, in the dark, you'd think I'd been riding that route all my life. The mapping is very easy to see, even in bright light without having to stop by the roadside...you can zoom in and out...admittedly you can't see a huge area of mapping in one go because it's a 3.5 inch screen but I've even scrolled around the map whilst on the move (after checking the road out ahead of course)
Sure I used to take printed directions or sometimes as many as 4 OS Landrangers and upload screencaps of Memory Map to my digicam to help negotiate big towns etc but that wasn't very good on the move and also no good if I decided to change my mind where I wanted to go.....I have the whole of England and Wales south of Manchester at 1:50,000 on my handlebars all the time it's no longer a problem. It's great for impromptu detours when you see an interesting looking lane or feature whilst out that you didn't when you were working out your route on your PC or as happened a couple of weeks ago a road was shut due to resurfacing.
It's expensive, especially as that is all it does, but I love it.
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Sounds like you haven't used one.
You're right :)
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I haven't used mine much yet on a route which I don't know. This (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2180.0) will be it's first proper test, but it is quite impressive being able to see where you are on a Landranger map, and it does show you what's around you.
It isn't as expensive as you may think, I've got the bottom half of the UK for about £90, which is close to 100 Landrangers, which would normally be about £7 each. That money wouldn't quite buy you 13 Landrangers. Now admittedly it's not quite the same thing, since I can't spread these maps out to look at the large scale, but equally I can't carry 100 Landrangers at all times, and I have used the mapping on the Active-10 as a quick reference to check on things on the map, when I otherwise wouldn't have had any access to the Landranger level of detail.
As for leaving it on the bike, well I automatically strip my bike of computers, lights, panniers etc, depending on where/when I'm stopping. I've never forgotten yet, even at the end of a FNRttC, and my bike lights cost around the same as an Active-10 ! (Exposure front light, Dinotte rear, plus some LD1100s, it's a not insignificant amount of money).
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We all love OS maps but as I see it the main problem is they aren't scaleable. Ok you can zoom in and out a bit but you soon run out of detail if you zoom in and zooming out only gives you clutter until you switch to a smaller-scale map (which I believe the Satmap does).
For me, it would only match up to the Garmin mapping if it zoomed in to a 1:25,000 map, then switched to the A-Z street map.
After all, the smallest possible point on a 1:50,000 map (say, the intersection of 2 grid lines) is going to translate to a square about 20m x 20m on the ground - and I don't think road junctions are plotted anything like that accurately on the 1:50,000 series - well OK that is 'good enough' for cycling but well short of the precision that GPS is capable of.
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I saw the Satmap stand at the Cycle Show and was impressed with the A10 - I like the OS Map functionality (I use the 1:250,000 maps that it comes preloaded with a fair bit for long distance rides already).
I'm glad they weren't selling at the show as I've got time to think about if it's a good idea to get one (I bought something from Memory Map on Saturday on impulse that I took back the next day as unsuitable - if I go to the cycle show next year it will be sans credit card)
Are current yacf A10 users still happy with it and what other comments about it do you have?
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I'm still happy with mine, but it's not necessarily ideal for all occasions.
I think if you want a GPS that tells you where to go, ie one that will indicate the turns along a route, then the Active 10 probably isn't as good as others, since it won't do that. You can load a route up into it, and it will display it for you to follow, but it won't tell you where and when to turn, it's up to you to make the turns at the right time.
It works wonderfully well at night, but in daylight the screens are just a little too shiny and reflective to work well in bright sunlight, which can be annoying. You can use it, but sometimes the sun can be in just the wrong place.
A couple of software downloads have made it pretty reliable now. The only time I've had it crash on me recently, is when I've changed the backlight brightness at the end of a FNRttC. It may be coincidence, but twice when I've done that, it's locked up and I've had to pop the battery out to get it to reboot. Not a biggee, and it's a lot more reliable than when I first got it, it had an annoying habit of stopping updating the screen after a few hours use, although it would continue to record the route into it's memory.
I have got use to the foibles of transferring routes in and out of it. Since I tend to create routes with Bikely, the "follow the road" option seems to create routes with thousands of points, which reasonably enough made the Active 10 a bit slow. It would still work, but the screen could lag behind a bit sometimes. Using GPSBabel to slim the route down cured that. Likewise a recording of the track you've been following also has thousands of data points, and Bikely doesn't always like that either, so GPSBabel simplifying the route before you upload it to Bikely also makes things work better in that direction. Not a big issue, but handy once you work it out.
I think the Active 10 would be excellent for walking, although I haven't used it like that yet. It does work fairly well for cycling, but it can be difficult to read any details on a screen that small when in motion. Like any device, you don't really want to be concentrating on the screen whilst hammering down a hill at 30+mph, and that's probably true of most GPS and bike computers. If all else fails you can always stop to inspect the route!
You can't really fault the ability to carry the entire UK 1:50000 mapping on one small device. The screen isn't really ideal for planning a route overall, but it's fine for checking on basic features, like what road you are on, and what was that strange thing you just cycled by. The screen is a mite small, but again that's a limitation of it being a portable device, there's always going to be a compromise between being able to view large areas of map, and being able to make the thing small enough to be sensible. I think they've got it about right.
I haven't really stressed the batteries on mine, but glancing at it from time to time, and with the screen on a 3 minute timeout, it easily seems to last through an entire FNRttC (this is on the Li-Ion battery). How long it would last if I left the screen on permanently isn't something I've investigated yet, but it's probably a significant fraction of a nights cycling. You can always carry one or two extra batteries (if you can afford it! It's £30 for a spare battery).
Mainly I like the fact that I've got a map of where I am, wherever I go. I haven't had to bother digging out my OS maps for a cycle for ages now. I still have to use something like Bikely to plan things, but that's reasonable enough, since the bigger screen makes it a lot easier. You can plan a route on the Active 10, but it's a lot fiddlier that way, and you spend a lot of time zooming in and out of the screen to see where you are.
It's not perfect, but at the moment it's the only game in town, and I think it's a reasonable effort. If you aren't desperate for it, waiting for the next generation device will almost certainly increase usability, and features, but I think they've done a fair job with this one. The post above may seem to rather list the negatives, but it's much easier to see those. I think having all these maps with you, all the time, is really great, and more than worth the odd niggle.
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I have got use to the foibles of transferring routes in and out of it. Since I tend to create routes with Bikely, the "follow the road" option seems to create routes with thousands of points, which reasonably enough made the Active 10 a bit slow. It would still work, but the screen could lag behind a bit sometimes. Using GPSBabel to slim the route down cured that. Likewise a recording of the track you've been following also has thousands of data points, and Bikely doesn't always like that either, so GPSBabel simplifying the route before you upload it to Bikely also makes things work better in that direction. Not a big issue, but handy once you work it out.
FWIW Bikely is much happier with routes with thousands of points under Firefox than it is under IE.
A quick test using this route of 6812 points:-
Bicycle Path - Putney to Thorne actual at Bikely.com (http://www.bikely.com/maps/bike-path/212282)
and FireFox brings up the page in half the time of IE, same amount of memory used though (80MB).
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FWIW Bikely is much happier with routes with thousands of points under Firefox than it is under IE.
A quick test using this route of 6812 points:-
Bicycle Path - Putney to Thorne actual at Bikely.com (http://www.bikely.com/maps/bike-path/212282)
and FireFox brings up the page in half the time of IE, same amount of memory used though (80MB).
I've been using Firefox with Bikely. It's not that it can't display the routes, but sometimes with editing things, it can behave a bit strange. Occasionally I've had bits of the data where the GPS has gone nuts, either due to large buildings or during power-on, and the points have been miles away from where they should be. When editing these points out with Bikely, it can sometimes seem to move other points to weird locations. I've got no idea why it does it, but it seems to be a function of having a lot of data points.
Another issue, is that with really big files, Bikely won't upload them. I forget exactly what size ones have caused problems, but probably an entire nights worth of FNRttC at 1 fix / second, which could be 36000 data points (say I leave home at 10-30pm and get back at 8-30am). Even with advanced power control active, it'll still be 9000 data points (or more, I didn't get back from the last FNRttC until about midday).
Frankly, it's also a damn site easier to deal with a 500 or 1000 data point track for a ride, and GPSBabel does simplify in a sensible manner, so long straight lines only have a few points, whereas going around curves have a lot more. I've simplified a FNRttC down by a factor of 10 or more in the number of points, with no significant degradation of the track.
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Another issue, is that with really big files, Bikely won't upload them.
Which is not exactly unreasonable.
(People who email me with large attachments don't get replies, either - I've set my mail client to delete them from the server unread.)
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Another issue, is that with really big files, Bikely won't upload them.
Which is not exactly unreasonable.
(People who email me with large attachments don't get replies, either - I've set my mail client to delete them from the server unread.)
This isn't a complaint about Bikely, just an observation. Even when it does upload a large file, it takes a while to do it, so it's good technique to avoid this, and massage the data initially with GPSBabel to make it a bit more manageable.
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I too caught a demo of the little fellow at the CycleShow and was very impressed. I've tried all sorts of combinations of devices but only this fulfills everything - rugged, long battery life, OS maps including street level, quick start up. The only problem is cost and maybe having to swap maps by swap SD cards.
No idea if it's compatable with Memory in terms of downloading routes easily.
The guy said the new firm ware is far better than version 1 - which doesn't surprise me. Still a pricey investment but probably cheaper than Otter box, PDA, GPS rec'r etc etc.
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In essence I think the only type of data that you import and export from the Active 10 is GPX, but that's a relatively open data format, so reasonably flexible.
Satmap have a scheme now, which will combine cards, so if you have several maps, and you want them on one card, they will merge them. I think it costs £15 to do this. Also helpfully, the last software update also allowed the use of SDHC cards, so this should also help merging large amounts of map data.
My 1:50000 southern half of the UK map is about 1.3 GBytes, so I guess the entire UK at that scale would be around 2.6 GBytes. 1:25000 mapping should be around four times the size (all other things being equal), so if you could afford it, I guess the entire UK at 1:25000 would be around 5.2 GBytes, which could theoretically be fitted on an SDHC. (Based on a 110km x 110km block costing £195, the 245000 km2 of the UK would be £4000 !)
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Another issue, is that with really big files, Bikely won't upload them.
Which is not exactly unreasonable.
This isn't a complaint about Bikely, just an observation. Even when it does upload a large file, it takes a while to do it, so it's good technique to avoid this, and massage the data initially with GPSBabel to make it a bit more manageable.
Sorry, I know it was just an observation, and I agree about the good technique. I'm a bit surprised that your files are 1 fix/sec - is that the default setup with the Active 10? A Garmin wouldn't normally do this (though it can be persuaded to, in the menus) - it downsamples by about 5x when writing the track, by default.
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I've never checked it too carefully, but I think it just writes the data at the rate it's been sampled at. It normal takes a fix every second, unless you're in "advanced power control" mode, in which case it only takes one sample every four seconds.
There isn't really any facility to change what rate the data is recorded at, it's just part of the power saving mechanism that the rate is slower when in that mode.
I think it doesn't bother to record samples if it "sees" that you're stationary, but since there is always some "movement" (ie noise on the doppler creates apparent low speed movement), you always seem to get some samples recorded.
The data files do tend to be hoooge. Luckily it has plenty of memory, so this doesn't seem to be an issue. I guess at some point it would run out, but I don't know what happens then.
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Had mine for just short of a year...and still loving it. It's a lot more stable with the latest firmware. I have the screen on all the time and have about 6 hours of constant use before I change the 3 AA 2500mAh batteries.
Whilst I have Memory Map to workout a route to get the exact length the version I upload to the unit has relatively few waypoints set to the side of the roads to be taken so I can see things easier.
It's definately changed the types of routes I create...I'm lucky to be able to travel by train for free and am able to ride over much of southern England every day off, I can use the Active 10 to do a lot of exploring new places on C-roads and I feel I get my money's worth out of it. :thumbsup:
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Like Rob S I've had mine for some time. I use the optional Lithium-polymer battery cell and if I use the Satmap in "power-save" mode and set to "north-up" rather than "track up" I can get over thirteen hours of continuous use with the screen constantly on. If I set the screen to shut off after, say 30 or 60 seconds (user selectable up to 15 minutes - one button press restores the screen) I'm sure I'd get much longer duration from the battery- I haven't tried it on a really long ride, but I can do twelve hours this way without denting the battery condition indicator.
At night it's great - just 10% of backlight power is more than adequate to display the rolling OS map. It's zoomable through several scales of map - the 1:250,000 and above are very useful for getting an overview before zooming in to the 1:50,000 to fine tune or follow a route. You can devise your route "on the fly" and it will go exactlywhere you want it to, unlike the temperamental Garmin "auto-routing" function which I find very cyclist-unfriendly.
I saw the imminent on-line route planner at the Cycle show - this appears to work in the same way as on the A10 itself - i.e you can plot your guideline alongside the roads if you wish - I agree with Rob S: this sometimes is easier to read - and make it go where you want.
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Having now found, & read, this thread, I think it's answered most of my questions. Ta, everyone. Mrs B has just surprised me with one for my birthday, complete with bike mount & a map card with national trails (I'd have preferred the southern England one, but shouldn't quibble - I can get that for myself). Nice present. I have informed her of my deep pleasure, with no complaints about the choice of maps.
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Having now found, & read, this thread, I think it's answered most of my questions. Ta, everyone. Mrs B has just surprised me with one for my birthday, complete with bike mount & a map card with national trails (I'd have preferred the southern England one, but shouldn't quibble - I can get that for myself). Nice present. I have informed her of my deep pleasure, with no complaints about the choice of maps.
Welcome to the Active 10 cycling users group! I hope you find it as good as I have. If you've a mind to, you can brush up on a lot of info here:
Pocket GPS World - SatNavs | GPS | Speed Cameras (http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=133) Keep an open mind - like many a forum, this receives a lot of grumbles but there is a lot of useful gen if you sift through it all.
P.S. - take no notice that it says "Speed cameras" - this should take you to the Satmap topics list. I don't know how to attach the link to a simple word!
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... P.S. - take no notice that it says "Speed cameras" - this should take you to the Satmap topics list. I don't know how to attach the link to a simple word!
Just place the text you want to link to inside of the appropriate BBCode tags, like this:
[url=http://www.link.here.com/]Text for Link[/url]
which would produce this:
Text for Link (http://www.link.here.com/)
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Thanks for the link, Pedro.
I'm not a full member yet. First, I have to use it.
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Just place the text you want to link to inside of the appropriate BBCode tags, like this:
[url=http://www.link.here.com/]Text for Link[/url]
which would produce this:
Text for Link (http://www.link.here.com/)
OK, thanks - I get it now - like this: Here (http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=133/)
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I finally got to use mine 'properly' yesterday.
I and Ms Weasel took the Thames Path to Walton on Thames on Sunday. We ended up coming back quite late and didn't fancy the muddy path in the dark - I found a nice on-road return route after a quick look at the map and easily followed it back home.
If forced to I could have done the same without it but it was incredibly easy with the Active 10
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Wasn't out riding because of a sinus infection, but went for a little walk with the Active 10, just to see the red dots.
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I think if you want a GPS that tells you where to go, ie one that will indicate the turns along a route, then the Active 10 probably isn't as good as others, since it won't do that. You can load a route up into it, and it will display it for you to follow, but it won't tell you where and when to turn, it's up to you to make the turns at the right time.
I suppose that using the A10 would be like using a real map with a red line drawn on to navigate with then? And I assume that using a Garmin off-road would not be able to tell you when to turn? So the OS map format of the A10 would be very useful?
james
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I think if you want a GPS that tells you where to go, ie one that will indicate the turns along a route, then the Active 10 probably isn't as good as others, since it won't do that. You can load a route up into it, and it will display it for you to follow, but it won't tell you where and when to turn, it's up to you to make the turns at the right time.
I suppose that using the A10 would be like using a real map with a red line drawn on to navigate with then? james
Yep...nowt wrong with that :thumbsup:
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I think you can upload any route onto the Garmins and similar GPSs, and they will tell you when to turn. The route doesn't have to be on a road. Actually, it looks like the last software update to the Active 10 allows this, you can switch to a mode where it shows a meter like display, which points straight ahead, left, or right, depending on where the next waypoint is, although I haven't really investigated this very much. I think the Garmins etc do a better job for this sort of route following, since they have things like audible indicators for when you need to look at the GPS.
For me, the Active 10 wins out, since it can have the entire 1:50000 mapping of the UK on it. I don't think you can upload as much mapping onto the more conventional GPSs (although the only modern GPS I've used is the Active 10, so I may be wrong on this). This does depend on you being able to afford this mapping however! (a smidgen under £200 for the whole UK at 1:50000).
I like having the detailed mapping on the GPS, since it will often allow you to see that your just going past a pre-historic site, or the name of a river, or whatever. So long as it's on the OS mapping, you can see it on the display. I find it very handy. An example is the Brixton Windmill, which I sort of knew existed, but didn't know exactly where. Looking at the GPS, there is a Windmill symbol right next to Brixton Hill, so dead easy to find.
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And I assume that using a Garmin off-road would not be able to tell you when to turn? So the OS map format of the A10 would be very useful?
Garmin's use of the term 'off-road' seems to lead to a lot of misunderstanding.
If you program a Garmin then use it in off-road mode, yes it will tell you when to turn.
In other words, you tell it exactly what you want to do, then it relays the instructions back to you at the appropriate time and place. To do it well requires a lot of input from you the user.
Whereas in follow-road you tell it vaguely what you want to do, and it tries to second-guess what you really meant and instructs you accordingly. This requires rather less prep, and a bit more blind faith.
Apologies for thread diversion, no intention of dissing the Active 10, honest.
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It's rather a case of horses for courses, things like the Garmin are good if you want it to give you a route to follow from point A to point B. Without substantial planning prior to departure the Active 10 isn't as good at this. You can generate a route using the device itself, rather than uploading a GPX, but it's a bit fiddly and tedious to my mind.
On the other hand, I don't think a Garmin can give you the rich and detailed OS 1:50000 mapping over such a large area.
It's all a matter of exactly what you want to do with the device.
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If you program a Garmin then use it in off-road mode, yes it will tell you when to turn. In other words, you tell it exactly what you want to do, then it relays the instructions back to you at the appropriate time and place. To do it well requires a lot of input from you the user. Whereas in follow-road you tell it vaguely what you want to do, and it tries to second-guess what you really meant and instructs you accordingly.
In my opinion (and I appreciate this is all very subjective) you've just illustrated why the Satmap beats the Garmin. I can input a Route into my Garmin, devised on my desktop using Garmin's Mapsource, and it will, as you say, "second guess" the Route it displays back to me. Since the algorithms in the unit differ from those in Mapsource, you may or may not get the same route. Typically, however you set the preferences in the Garmin, you will find it sends you miles out of your way to cross a major road, or to take a "shortest" route. Since the mapping in it is so poor, you will have difficulty keeping track of where you are if you're in unfamiliar territory.
The Satmap, in contrast, doesn't try to do something it cannot do properly. It simply gives you the full maps, in a series of scales and with all the information the OS sheets have, and you just follow the roads/paths etc. as you would with a paper map. If you want a guide to follow, you use a preloaded track, which is what you have to do with a Garmin if you want dependability. If you haven't preloaded a route, it's very simple to devise an adequate guide in the unit itself, out in the field.
Now that the battery life and system stability issues are much improved, the only area in which the Garmin beats the Satmap is the screen visibility in strong light, and that's only the older Garmins - the Colorado and the Oregon are practically unusable on a bike. And that's only in daylight; at night the Satmap wins hands down.
All in my humble opinion,of course, and because that's what works for me - no doubt others will have different experiences!
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That's a good point though, the display on the Active 10 can be a bit iffy in bright sunlight. It's OK on dull days, and when I use it on FNRttCs, you barely need the backlight turned on, so it improves the battery life. :thumbsup:
Hopefully Satmap will improve that on a later model, but knowing my luck, they'll change the format of the maps, and try to make us all buy them again!
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Hopefully Satmap will improve that on a later model, but knowing my luck, they'll change the format of the maps, and try to make us all buy them again!
A later model... :o
Pocket GPS World - SatNavs | GPS | Speed Cameras (http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=75506)
£80 extra...but includes a world base map (at the expense of the UK vector mapping) and postcode database...plus a Li Po battery and charger.....same old unit though :thumbsup:
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It seems they're all rubbish in bright sunlight. Shame really.
If you program a Garmin then use it in off-road mode, yes it will tell you when to turn. In other words, you tell it exactly what you want to do, then it relays the instructions back to you at the appropriate time and place. To do it well requires a lot of input from you the user. Whereas in follow-road you tell it vaguely what you want to do, and it tries to second-guess what you really meant and instructs you accordingly.
In my opinion (and I appreciate this is all very subjective) you've just illustrated why the Satmap beats the Garmin. I can input a Route into my Garmin, devised on my desktop using Garmin's Mapsource, and it will, as you say, "second guess" the Route ... Typically ... you will find it sends you miles out of your way to cross a major road, or to take a "shortest" route. Since the mapping in it is so poor, you will have difficulty keeping track of where you are if you're in unfamiliar territory.
Yes that's all true, but its not as though that way of working is your only option. You can use a Garmin as a 'highlighted scrolling map' if that's what you prefer.
Where I take issue with most of this thread is in describing Mapsource maps as 'poor' (they are so not) and OS maps as 'detailed' by contrast. I would agree with OS being 'rich' however and that is a big plus obviously.
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I must admit, I don't know what the Mapsource mapping is like. The OS mapping on the Active 10 is essentially the normal 1:25000 and/or 1:50000 mapping that most of us have used at one time or another, so is very familiar, and generally recognised as being extremely good. I have no idea what level of detail and information things like Mapsource can provide, and how much can be loaded onto a Garmin GPS.
The Active 10 Plus model doesn't sound much like I'd be interested. The Postcode database is of limited use on a GPS that doesn't do automagic routing, and it doesn't sound like losing the base vector mapping to gain a very limited worldwide map is much of a deal.
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The Active 10 Plus model doesn't sound much like I'd be interested. The Postcode database is of limited use on a GPS that doesn't do automagic routing, and it doesn't sound like losing the base vector mapping to gain a very limited worldwide map is much of a deal.
I might go for the upgrade to the world base map at some point as I've not found that I've used the vector maps yet, but 1:5million isn't that helpful except to fill in the space between proper maps as far as I can see. I've got no foreign trips planned, so I'm in no rush.
I did try their web route planning thing the other day, but gave up really rather quickly as I couldn't get it to put dots where I clicked, follow roads or undo ???
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Where I take issue with most of this thread is in describing Mapsource maps as 'poor' (they are so not) and OS maps as 'detailed' by contrast. I would agree with OS being 'rich' however and that is a big plus obviously.
I suppose I should qualify what I mean when I say Mapsource/City Navigator maps are "poor". To me, this is caused by (i) roads being marked on the screen which aren't there (they're actually bridleways); (ii) bridleways shown (and used by the autorouting function as) roads when they're not rideable; (iii) the fact that all roads appear as same weighted same colour lines and you have no way of discerning which are A roads and which are "yellows"; (iv) when you zoom out to get an overview to try and figure which way to go the minor roads disappear (they do eventually on the Satmap too, but not until they're too small to read anyway and by that time you've switched to a larger scale map and can see the major landmarks easily); the fact that now I've been lumbered with Vista and updated my City Navigator, the smaller roads don't even show on the desktop when zoomed out beyond 300m so the programme is miserable to use now ............ oooh, you've got me going now!
On the other hand, for Audaxing, I sometimes think the OS maps are too detailed. Trying to read them at speed, maintaining your pace through villages say, or complex junctions, sometimes I miss the simple clarity of the Garmin - just a green track to follow on brown lines; no distracting "ancient monuments", "sites of special historic interest", etc. cluttering up the screen! In fact, it's occurred to me more than once, that my ideal might in fact be not a rolling OS map but a rolling Philip's Navigator which, when I was still using maps on the bike, I regarded as the best in the business. I found them very accurate, easy to read and displaying only, but all, the information I needed with no extraneous stuff to confuse the eye.
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The Active 10 Plus model doesn't sound much like I'd be interested. The Postcode database is of limited use on a GPS that doesn't do automagic routing, and it doesn't sound like losing the base vector mapping to gain a very limited worldwide map is much of a deal.
I might go for the upgrade to the world base map at some point as I've not found that I've used the vector maps yet, but 1:5million isn't that helpful except to fill in the space between proper maps as far as I can see. I've got no foreign trips planned, so I'm in no rush.
I did try their web route planning thing the other day, but gave up really rather quickly as I couldn't get it to put dots where I clicked, follow roads or undo ???
Ditto. It's not very good. Apart from having 1:25000 mapping of the UK, I think it's inferior to some of the free online ones. The viewing window is far too small, for a start. I told them, & they say it's intended to make it bigger eventually, but it's not a high priority. Making it work with other than OS maps, & some other improvements, are higher on the list.
I'm not interested in the world map or postcode database, either.
I've adopted a few methods of plotting routes for my Active 10. Probably all pretty standard, but bear with me: I'm new to this.
1. Plot them on my computer using one of the free online route planners, then load them onto the Active 10.
2. Let the Active 10 remember where I go, & save the route. I use this method when I'm following someone else, if I like their route. Any tweaks I do on the computer.
3. Nick one from Bikely. I intend to put some of my favourites on there, to pay for those I copy.
I see that on the website, to see the Dutch & Norwegian maps, you have to click on the relevant language icons. Hmm. What if you don't speak Dutch, but want to buy the maps for use on holiday? The selection of walking & cycling routes on their Dutch website is impressive, & I think excellent for anyone planning, e.g., a cycling holiday in the Netherlands, but do I really have to buy the map cards (1:25000 for the whole country, on two cards, BTW) from the ANWB Webwinkel (in Dutch only)?
I really like the thing itself, & I'm very pleased with Mrs Bs choice of birthday present for me, but I'm not impressed by the website, route planner, & how they sell stuff. Good that they sell the bike brackets separately, though. I need another one.
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I used to use a Mio Windows Mobile PDA with GPS onboard and MemoryMaps installed. Those who were led round various incorrect lanes in Suffolk on the 2005 Dun Run may remember the battery running out just when we needed it most! Battery life (and screen brightness) notwithstanding, I find it difficult to see what this Active 10 device offers that my old Mio didn't years ago.
With a large enough SD card, it could cover the whole of UK with 1:25,000 OS mapping, and have Tom Tom installed for getting to and from the riding area (for those occasions when the car was needed to get there).
Incidentally, it's still going and is now used by my stepson.
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I used to use a Mio Windows Mobile PDA with GPS onboard and MemoryMaps installed. Those who were led round various incorrect lanes in Suffolk on the 2005 Dun Run may remember the battery running out just when we needed it most! Battery life (and screen brightness) notwithstanding, I find it difficult to see what this Active 10 device offers that my old Mio didn't years ago.
With a large enough SD card, it could cover the whole of UK with 1:25,000 OS mapping, and have Tom Tom installed for getting to and from the riding area (for those occasions when the car was needed to get there).
Incidentally, it's still going and is now used by my stepson.
What kind of battery life were you getting out of the Mio? And what can you do once the battery goes? replace it or plug in an external battery?
And I wonder what kind of performance you would get out of it if you hoped to have the whole of the UK at 1:25,000....that would be a pretty large file!!
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I used to use a Mio Windows Mobile PDA with GPS onboard and MemoryMaps installed. Those who were led round various incorrect lanes in Suffolk on the 2005 Dun Run may remember the battery running out just when we needed it most! Battery life (and screen brightness) notwithstanding, I find it difficult to see what this Active 10 device offers that my old Mio didn't years ago.
With a large enough SD card, it could cover the whole of UK with 1:25,000 OS mapping, and have Tom Tom installed for getting to and from the riding area (for those occasions when the car was needed to get there).
Incidentally, it's still going and is now used by my stepson.
What kind of battery life were you getting out of the Mio? And what can you do once the battery goes? replace it or plug in an external battery?
And I wonder what kind of performance you would get out of it if you hoped to have the whole of the UK at 1:25,000....that would be a pretty large file!!
And how did you get on with the Mio in pouring rain for six hours overnight?
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What kind of battery life were you getting out of the Mio? And what can you do once the battery goes? replace it or plug in an external battery?
And I wonder what kind of performance you would get out of it if you hoped to have the whole of the UK at 1:25,000....that would be a pretty large file!!
I was getting about 8 hours from a full charge. It could take an external power input, so I guess a battery pack would have been possible. I didn't attempt to put the whole of UK at 25k on a card - back then, it's unlikely I could have got a 32Gb SD card without a mortgage! But I did get half of UK at 50k on a 2Gb SD card, with Tom Tom on the same card. It handled those perfectly.
And how did you get on with the Mio in pouring rain for six hours overnight?
OK, actually. I had it inside the map cover on my bar bag. I believe there was a bike mount available for it, but I never had one.
I don't doubt that the Mio was inferior to the Active on a number of levels. It just doesn't seem that the game has moved on very much - and, in some ways, it's gone backwards.
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A lot of the limitations on things like the Active 10 aren't technological, they're issues with licensing the data at a sane price, and in a way that limits the promulgation of data to only those who have paid for it.
Satmap seem to have managed to provide the data on SD cards, in a way which limits the data files to the cards which they are distributed on only. In effect there is a physical key associated with each card, stopping them being distributed outside of the paid for licensed quantities. They are also selling them, albeit not cheaply, but at a price level which is broadly acceptable.
I don't know what previous attempts have been like, but they don't seem to have been successful, which presumably reflects either that they were too expensive, or the availability of large data transfer mechanisms didn't yet exist (ie cheap large SD cards in the case of the Active 10).
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I've just realised that the bike mounting for the Active 10 is a jazzed-up version of the
Rixen & Kaul Klickfix mini-adapter (http://www.allaboutmedia.de/klickfix/images/php/img.php4?i=../.././images/produkte/big/0000ma.jpg&w=500&h=500&bg=ffffff)
BTW, I verified this today by putting my Active 10 on someone elses Klickfix adapter. Perfect fit. To my annoyance, Rixen & Kaul list it as "not available separately", but I have found it on sale separately, down to half the price of an Active 10 bike mount. If only I'd known before I bought a spare . . . . :(
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It's also used by one of the lock manufacturers, I got a spare one with a lock, which I don't use with the lock. I can't remember which type of lock it is though, and I'm away from home at the moment, so can't check.
Where did you find the mount cheaper?
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It's also used by one of the lock manufacturers, .... I can't remember which type of lock it is though, ..........
I think it's Abus
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The Active 10 bike mount is an Abus product. It says "Abus" on it. It also says "KLICKFix".
Looking at the Abus site, it seems to be the TexKF Mini. The RBKF Mini is the simpler version, very much like the Rixen & Kaul Mini Adapter.
Aha! It's not just "very much like" it, it's the same product, except for the colour. Made by Rixen & Kaul for Abus. Available for £2.99 (special offer) from ABUS RBKF MINI :: £2.99 :: SECURITY :: Locks - Carrying Brackets :: Cyclesense Tadcaster (http://www.cyclesense.co.uk/products.php?plid=m26b0s412p3657)
Worth buying a few as spares, at that price. One can also get the TexKF Mini a bit cheaper elsewhere than from Satmap. They charge the same as the most expensive alternatives, & some do free or cheaper delivery.
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Where did you find the mount cheaper?
The Klickfix Mini Adapter (part number AM803) £7.61 at Dotbike, but see above for even cheaper under the Abus name. Note that is a simpler & cheaper product than the one Satmap sells, but I have tried the Active 10 on one, & it's definitely the same fitting.
Cyclestore.co.uk are selling the TexKF Mini (same as Satmap) for £12.32 + £3 P&P, vs £14.99 + £2.99 P&P from Satmap. Wiggle have 3 at £14.67 post free.
All found using a well-known search engine.
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After starting the thread 10 months ago I've just rediscovered it and found the recent posts very interesting.
I see that at least one cyclist doesn't want historical monuments crowding his screen but that is exactly what I do want!
If I've understood correctly somebody else found there way home with it by using it as one would a paper map.
I went to the SatMap stand at the Outdoor show and asked the same question as last year, "What's the state of play with Mac compatibility?"
Last year the answer was something like,"We are aware of minor problems but a software upgrade is imminent." This year the answer was, "We have a new programmer who has been working exclusively on the Mac software for the last two months. it will be ready soon."
Didn't trust them any more that last year so I'm still using paper 1:50,000's. This is something that I'd really like to buy - modern technology, British product but ... :-\
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Bought two Mini Adapters from Cyclesense, to put a mount on each bike, & got two different ones - one Abus, one Rixen & Kaul original. Identical except for the trimmings. ;D
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I've also just ordered some spare mounts from CycleSense. At £2.99 each, it seems silly not to.
I noticed that Satmap have released a new software upgrade, version 1.323 (http://www.satmap.com/software.php). It doesn't look all that dramatic, but there are a few minor improvements, so I'll probably install it tonight.
The shop now has a "Cycle City AZ London" map for £25 vs the older £40 "AZ Greater London". Does anyone have any idea what the coverage and resolution of this is? I've got the 1:14000 A-Z mapping already, so I'm not likely to buy the new one, but I'm curious to know what they've removed to drop the price by so much. They do mention that they've changed the colours, so that cycle routes are highlighted, but little else is listed. If it's the same as this (http://www.a-zmaps.co.uk/?nid=355), then it's not terribly good value, since that's a lot smaller area than the older, but more expensive map.
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I've also just ordered some spare mounts from CycleSense. At £2.99 each, it seems silly not to....
Enjoy your tea. :thumbsup:
BTW, I just got an e-mail. 1:50K maps of Germany, Austria & Switzerland are now available, & 1:25k maps of Germany & Austria.
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Well, I just got my mounts, which isn't too bad a delivery time. I've yet to try my bag of Yorkshire Tea. ;D
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inspired by the threads on here, we got an Active 10 to use walking in the lake district. Fantastic toy, right up until the batteries went from 50% to zero in about an hour, while it was snowing... Luckily we'd got the map and compass.
Mrs Mike wants to use it when on the horse in the forests round Norfolk, but before we 'invest' in the maps, are the 1:50,000 scale maps OK for following bridleways, does anyone know?
And is there a cheaper way to do it than buying the SD cards?
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Mrs Mike wants to use it when on the horse in the forests round Norfolk, but before we 'invest' in the maps, are the 1:50,000 scale maps OK for following bridleways, does anyone know?
And is there a cheaper way to do it than buying the SD cards?
The 1:50k maps are OS maps. I've found them OK for walking and cycling, so I guess riding is similar. In some ways better than paper as you can zoom in when the detail gets confusing. The downside is that you can't get the big area at once of a paper map.
I treated myself to a patch of 1:25k around home on the same card. I use this very little, but the map has to be quite busy for that scale to be important on paper too.
No cheaper way of getting the maps that I know of though.
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...... the batteries went from 50% to zero in about an hour...........
Were you using it in "Powersave" mode? This consumes much less battery, at the expense of setting the brightness to 80% max. You'll also significantly extend battery life if you set it to screen off after, say, 30 seconds. Zooming in and out and scrolling about (i.e. "playing with it") uses battery too. The type of AA is important too. Many rechargeables drop slightly below the critical voltage threshold as they decline and the unit will power down with half used cells sometimes. Disposables generally don't suffer so much like this but are more costly over time. the li-pol battery is worth getting if you are a frequent long time user.
Mrs Mike wants to use it when on the horse in the forests round Norfolk, but before we 'invest' in the maps, are the 1:50,000 scale maps OK for following bridleways, does anyone know?
As the previous poster says, they are exact OS maps, so if a 1:50,000 map is OK, it's OK. For walking I prefer 1:25,000, but 1:50,000 is fine for cycling and I guess would be OK for horseriding.
And is there a cheaper way to do it than buying the SD cards?
Not so far as I know. This is one way Satmap make their money. And like other companies, they are tightly constrained by OS copyright and licencing.
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The screen is inevitably a bit small, so if the map has a lot of detail on it, I suspect that if you zoomed in enough to see it all, you won't have much of the map on the screen!
I find the 1:50000 perfectly adequate for cycling, and it only (!) cost £100 or so for the bottom half of the UK. The same area in 1:25000 would be something like £2000. ;D
I do also have the London A-Z which is 1:14000, but where there are lots of roads, it's a lot easier to see things at this scale, with the 1:50000 mapping, sometimes you're not even sure which of two roads you are on, since errors in the GPS/mapping can place the track smack bang between two roads! The 1:14000 seems to be better for this sort of issue.
If you give me the location of a bridleway, I can take a couple of shots of the screen, zoomed in and out as much as is usable, that ought to give you some sort of idea how well it works. As perpetual dan said, it's essentially identical to the OS 1:50000 Landranger maps.
I have two Li-Ion battery packs for mine, and that will keep me going for an entire FNRttC, even with quite extensive use of the screen (and I think I have it set to stay on for five minutes).
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cheers all!
thanks for the offer Tim - one of the areas she uses a lot are the fire roads in woods to the north west of &searchp=ids.srf&mapp=map.srf]West Stow (http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=581500&y=270500&z=120&sv=west+stow&st=3&tl=Map+of+West+Stow,+Suffolk+[City/Town/Village)
yes, I know it's a pretty simple grid system and most people would be fine with just a compass, we've had that discussion.... ::-)
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cheers all!
thanks for the offer Tim - one of the areas she uses a lot are the fire roads in woods to the north west of &searchp=ids.srf&mapp=map.srf]West Stow (http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=581500&y=270500&z=120&sv=west+stow&st=3&tl=Map+of+West+Stow,+Suffolk+[City/Town/Village)
yes, I know it's a pretty simple grid system and most people would be fine with just a compass, we've had that discussion.... ::-)
Is that the West Stow as in rebuilt Saxon village?
if so, I hadn't realised how close it is to Mildenhall.
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Is that the West Stow as in rebuilt Saxon village?
if so, I hadn't realised how close it is to Mildenhall.
yep, one and the same. Nice place for a day out, the woods there are ace.
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inspired by the threads on here, we got an Active 10 to use walking in the lake district. Fantastic toy, right up until the batteries went from 50% to zero in about an hour, while it was snowing... Luckily we'd got the map and compass.
Mrs Mike wants to use it when on the horse in the forests round Norfolk, but before we 'invest' in the maps, are the 1:50,000 scale maps OK for following bridleways, does anyone know?
And is there a cheaper way to do it than buying the SD cards?
1. I've found the same with the (old, past their best) Nimh rechargeables I'm currently using in it. Sits on 4 bars for a long time, 3 bars for quite a while, but once it hits two bars, it's time to change the batteries. But so far, they've been adequate for all-day rides - on power save, screen switching off quite quickly.
Use the highest capacity rechargeables you can get, charge them right up, & carry a spare set of disposables or Hybrio-style rechargeables. Or buy the battery pack. The biggest drawback of the Active 10, IMO, but unless someone invents a pretty colour screen that size with much lower power consumption & there's a trade-in scheme, or Satmap achieve some miracle in software-driven power management, I don't see a way round it.
2. I've found 1:50K excellent for cycling on road, & adequate for off-road. I have a little bit of 1:25K coverage, but I've not found any real need of it.
3. No, unfortunately. But compare £100 for southern Britain with the cost of all the paper maps. Dirt cheap, when you look at it that way.
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1. I've found the same with the (old, past their best) Nimh rechargeables I'm currently using in it. Sits on 4 bars for a long time, 3 bars for quite a while, but once it hits two bars, it's time to change the batteries.
I haven't had that issue since one of the firmware updates of last year....prior to that 2 bars meant the batteries were about to die.
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Its just a characteristic of NiMH (and NiCad) cells - they plateau at an almost constant voltage for the whole runtime, then drop like a stone. Its normal.
Unlike Duracells, Lithiums, Li-ions, and car batteries, all of which show a steady decline over time, and which condition our expectation of how a battery should behave.
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Its just a characteristic of NiMH (and NiCad) cells - they plateau at an almost constant voltage for the whole runtime, then drop like a stone. Its normal.
Indeed it is...though as I said before one of the updates late last year you'd never see two bars for very long....very easy to go from three bars to the easily missed shutdown countdown screen. Now you can continue with it showing two bars for a while...as happened on my walk last Sunday.
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Indeed it is...though as I said before one of the updates late last year you'd never see two bars for very long....very easy to go from three bars to the easily missed shutdown countdown screen. Now you can continue with it showing two bars for a while...as happened on my walk last Sunday.
I take two bars not as a warning to stop the bike & change the batteries, but as a warning to change the batteries at the next stop, if that makes sense. But the only time I've had the batteries fade on a ride was when I forgot to recharge it after the last one, & my batteries are an old set, in which one holds a bit less than the others. I think that when that one fades, the voltage falls off a cliff.
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I've also just ordered some spare mounts from CycleSense. At £2.99 each, it seems silly not to.
Hi - I'm a new forum member - found this thread because I'm searching for a new mount for my Rixen and Kaul map holder (old one has a bit of plastic fatigue and I don't wish to move it from one bike to another). This is the one place my search terms led me!
The cycle sense £2.99 Abus one sounds ideal, but they're now sold out.
Sorry to resurrect an old thread - but if anyone out there has bought up lots - spares, stockpiling - would they be willing to part with one?
It'd make a student, and cyclist (road, commuting, touring) very happy!
Thanks - James.
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I ordered a new one from wiggle (or was it SJS, I forget) yesterday. If anyone has a big stock of spares please don't tell me!