Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Freewheeling => Folders => Topic started by: andygates on 06 June, 2008, 08:55:42 am
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Work have started a cyclescheme at last. This is my one chance at getting a Brommie to replace Lance (the fixie folder abomination).
Now, all I know about Brommies is that they've got the uber-fold and they can do Dunwich. The role I have in mind for this machine is primarily the vanbike: the folder in my camper so that when I drive places I can park up and use the bike for errands instead of having to drive off again. So, primarily, it's a shopper: normal clothes, some modest luggage, range of up to 10 miles.
O Wise Ones, what can you recommend?
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Having done a bit of research, the S-type has the best riding position. S2L is about £600, S2L-X with titanium bits is more like £1000.
Unless you're a midget, you'll need the longer seatpost option. They claim the standard one is OK for a six-footer, but only if they're a six-footer with a 32" inside leg ::-)
Check Bromptons are actually available on the scheme before signing up (see the "Can you really beat a Brompton?" thread).
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If I were to be buying a new Brommie (mine came as is, second hand from ACF) then it would be thus:
Flat bar, two speed, with the lightweight Ti bits in "natural lacquered" colour so you can see the metal and the pretty brazed joints. Brompton only pick the ones with the prettiest braze jobs for this finish, y'know...
Don't bother with the SON, 'cos it's heavy and unnecessary for a city bike. Just fit some weeny little blinkies or do what my bike had done and permanently attach some Cateyes (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b187/vicechair/Brompton/P2120517.jpg). Also, don't get a rack, 'cos they're crap. Go for the front block and one of the funky new courier style bags. Like roger says, the extended seatpost is a must. They do a Ti one, apparently...
Get the racing slick tyres and the fabric cover for taking on the train/plane when you want it to look like luggage, not a folding bike. Buy some Brompton-specific roller skate wheels off eBay for the rolley-wheels at the back, 'cos the plastic one aren't up to much.
You should be able to get all that for under a grand.
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Having recently acquired an M6R, functional shopper, with the front touring pannier it is better, and day rider, I am now looking forward to the day when I also have an S2L/L-X.
Despite what Charlotte says the rack is fine, but becomes a nuisance having to unload it to fold it.
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Charlotte's got it in one! I myself have a two speed S type in the raw lacquer finish and I love it. I opted for the rear rack and it's a total waste of space - I tried to use it in earnest once with a small bag, but whatever way I tried to arrange it my heels kept hitting the bag, very frustrating!
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Hmm... food for thought. My initial hankering would be the S-type, 6-speed, racing tyres, long post. No Ti bits, that's outside my budget. Lighting as Charlotte suggests; the wheely-mod sounds good too.
You all seem to like the 2-speed. Is it a really wide range? I'm kinda keen to keep it all hubly and enclosed...
Raw lacquer does sound sexy. Always wanted one of those, for the starkness. 8)
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the 2 speed it perfect - actually makes a significant difference and gives you a gear for all occasions!
[edit] you can specify with Bromton what ratios you want too - so as a stronger rider you can get higher gearing
[edit] the raw lacquer is ultimate bling - the brazing is gold
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Well, whichever bike you go for, you're going to have a chain tensioner/dérailleur, right? May as well have that doing your gear changing.
I like the 3 speed hub that I have but it's noisy, inefficient and probably quite heavy. The only advantage is the traditionally useful hub gear thang where you can change down whilst stationary. But with the two speed, you just have to click down before you stop. I'd spec it with about 72" for the big gear and about 58" for the little'un. What more do you need?
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Strange that. I'm 6', ride a 23" frame, and find the standard Brompton seatpost fine. It's on full extension, mind.
Agreed, the rack will only take very small items, and you can't do the park-fold with it loaded.
Ms R keeps eying the Ti ones, but hasn't committed herself yet. She wants lots of gears, though I'd fancy one or two speeds.
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50 x 14 and 50 x 12 give a reasonable cruising and hurrying gear, if not a climbing gear. Can you fit a 12T on a Brompton?
I'm not sure you can climb easily on a Brommie; the handlebars twist (although the S-type should be better) and, as someone who gets rear brake rub and ghost front changes on a conventional bike, I'm going to seriously twist that dinky rear triangle if I stand up.
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Ah well, if I can spec ratios that makes all the difference. I'd forgotten that the tensioner was going to be there anyway. 72/58 sounds peachy to me too (ah, those fixie legs).
Ian, what's your inside leg and shoe-size?
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Either 2-speed or 6. Don't go for the 3-speed SA hub was the advice I was given. I would have gone for the S-type too, but my wife is used to sit-up and beg bike and prefers the upright position offered by the M-type.
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When I say 2 speed I mean the one that gives you 6 gears in total - 3 in hub, 2 sprockets
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50 x 14 and 50 x 12 give a reasonable cruising and hurrying gear, if not a climbing gear. Can you fit a 12T on a Brompton?
I'm not sure you can climb easily on a Brommie; the handlebars twist (although the S-type should be better) and, as someone who gets rear brake rub and ghost front changes on a conventional bike, I'm going to seriously twist that dinky rear triangle if I stand up.
I can climb out of the saddle no problem. With the U shaped bars an' everything :)
I was on the Sunday ride at the CTC conference in Belfast, riding along with Kevin Mayne and as we left the Sustrans path and headed for the hills, he said "ah, we're leaving Brompton territory now, you know".
Red rag to a bull or what? I challenged him to a sprint up the next hill and he lost.
Badly :D
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Mine's a T3, so pre-dates the current models, and I didn't have a choice of getting a two-speed at the time, it was three speed or six speed. I decided that having the dérailleur with the hub was unnecessary, especially since to use the entire range in turn, you have to alternate between changing the hub, and changing both! If I bought one now, I may go with something like Charlotte suggested, just using the one ratio for pulling away, and when pulling stupidly heavy loads on the trailer.
I used to use my Ex's Brompton which didn't have an extended seatpost, and it was OK for short distances (a mile or two), but when I bought my own I thought it would be a good idea to get that additional distance, and it's a lot more comfortable. I'm 6'3" with about a 32" inside leg.
I've got the rear carrier and hardly ever use it, the front luggage block is more useful, I could do without the carrier, but not the luggage block! Likewise, it's dead easy to fit some LED lights for emergencies, rather than rely on the dynamo. Mine died after six months, and rather than faff about with findind the dis in the wiring, I just binned it and went over to battery lights permanently.
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The Brompton SON is beautiful though...
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Ian, what's your inside leg and shoe-size?
Should I be giving out my vital statistics in public?
32" and 9½ to 10 depending.
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Likewise, it's dead easy to fit some LED lights for emergencies, rather than rely on the dynamo. Mine died after six months, and rather than faff about with findind the dis in the wiring, I just binned it and went over to battery lights permanently.
That's true - definitely never get the bottle dynamo, Andy. I've never heard a good word said about it.
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Why do people not mention Airnimals whenever folders are, er, mentioned type thing?
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Why do people not mention Airnimals whenever folders are, er, mentioned type thing?
There's a thread for that HERE (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2955.0). An Airnimal is a bit of a different beast, great as they are, they're not so good for practical folding and storing etc.
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I find the luggage rack on my T6 perfectly functional other than, as Del says, when you want to fold it. You have to unload it first. It also has the bungees built in so you can't lose them.
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That's true - definitely never get the bottle dynamo, Andy. I've never heard a good word said about it.
For occasional use, a bottle dynamo is useless - too low and unless it's regularly used, it'll rust up. Been there, done that.
Why do people not mention Airnimals whenever folders are, er, mentioned type thing?
'cos i wanna Brompton. Nothing else folds so nicely. And it's a design classic.
Ian, what's your inside leg and shoe-size?
Should I be giving out my vital statistics in public?
32" and 9½ to 10 depending.
Same as me. I'll have to test-ride a regular post. :)
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I have to join in with this one really :-)
I would go for:
The front luggage - as for many other people I have trouble with my heels hitting anything that is on the rear rack. I have a rear rack at the moment, and I've used it about three times in 4 years of Bromptoning, and it's always a pain.
Handlebars: I wouldn't go for the S. I find them too low, and you can't fit all the standard front luggage options. I've tried the P, and found I didn't much like how far my hands were from the brakes when descending hills. So for me, the good old-fashioned M type bars. I would get bar ends though. After quite a lot of research I went for Cane Creek ones, and they are great.
I am 5'10", and I had to replace my extended seatpost with a telescopic one. The extended one would have been fine around town, but was half a centimetre shorter than I wanted for audaxes. This also has the advantage that the bike folds smaller than with the extended post. I can't imagine how anyone of 6 foot could cope with the normal seatpost unless they had very tiny legs.
Lights: I love my SON dynamo, but if I started again I'd just use LED battery lights.
Gears: I started with a T6, and upgraded it by adding a Schlumpf Speed Drive. I doubt you'll want to bother with that. For just riding around town and stuff I rarely left the top two gears when it was a T6, so I'd probably go with the no hub option.
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One more thing...
Tyres: I don't know what it's like with Stelvios, but fixing punctures on a Brompton is generally a nightmare. My solution to this is to use Schwalbe Marathon's and try to have as few punctures as possible. I guess there is a possibility that it's easier to get the Stelvios on and off without puncuring the tube. Does anyone have any experience of this?
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One more thing...
Tyres: I don't know what it's like with Stelvios, but fixing punctures on a Brompton is generally a nightmare. My solution to this is to use Schwalbe Marathon's and try to have as few punctures as possible. I guess there is a possibility that it's easier to get the Stelvios on and off without puncuring the tube. Does anyone have any experience of this?
I put Marathons on ours. They weren't a problem to fit. Never punctured.
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I put Marathons on ours. They weren't a problem to fit. Never punctured.
You must have much stronger thumbs and wrists than I do.
I have had one puncture while I've been using the Marathons in about 4000 miles, I had become so blazé about it I'd stopped carrying a spare tube... Looking forward to the Marathon Plus in Brompton size :-)
Duncan
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Lots of options, most are good.
Mrs LWaB has a custom-shortened and flared extended seatpost to guarantee that it is the right saddle height every time. I use a telescopic post for the same reason.
We both have T5s (pre-2000) but Mrs LWaB has the SP front derailleur mount and double chainrings, climbing the Col du Telegraph in 2005. The SA shifter was replaced with a twistgrip. She also has a modified stem, using a Post-Moderne seatpost with a flat bar to add some suspension to the front. I fitted the handlebar brace to the modern M-bar to increase stiffness. Ritchey Logic brake levers and Scott/Matthauser pads compensate for my Saccon calipers, Mrs LWaB has paired dual pivots. We both use short bar ends. I run a SS Jubilee clip around the suspension block, I prefer the firmer ride, particularly when climbing out of the saddle. We only use Brompton Yellow tyres now.
The front bags are an essential part of the Brompton 'system' IMHO. The rear rack helps when 'trolleying', is more stable when folded and gives extra capacity but adds weight. The flimsy dynamos were replaced with Nordlicht 2000s, the rear lights with Brompton's LED dynamo tailights, giving reliable light ever since. The front lights are being upgraded with Ian H's offerings.
Pentaclips are the next tweak (along with new paint jobs and replacement swingarm pivots). Eventually Ti bits are likely to appear (Mrs LWaB's mods add mass) but not for a while yet.
Eventually Brompton will start fitting the SA8 hub (or similar) to give a decent range of gears. That is probably the last major improvement needed, for a while anyway.
I'd pick the M6L option in the meantime.
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Well, s/h S2Ls go for at least £350 on *bay (just been outbid again!) and even slightly ropey L3s command more than £300 unless the seller lives in the sticks and won't post, so it's better to get a new one through a Bike4Work scheme. Annoyingly, I can't do this until January, probably the worst time of year to ride a bike.
The Dahon Curve is much cheaper, but spare parts are no doubt tricky to get, there's no real s/h value and it's probably made in Ungo-Bungo Land.
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This front luggage lark... I'm mostly a backpack boy these days but don't want to kill my options. Is it possible to retrofit the luggage block?
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Yes, totally.
...and it's probably made in Ungo-Bungo Land.
You are Phil the Greek (http://www.cbc.ca/news/photogalleries/philip_portrait/index.html) and ICMFP :D
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50 x 14 and 50 x 12 give a reasonable cruising and hurrying gear, if not a climbing gear. Can you fit a 12T on a Brompton?
I'm not sure you can climb easily on a Brommie; the handlebars twist (although the S-type should be better) and, as someone who gets rear brake rub and ghost front changes on a conventional bike, I'm going to seriously twist that dinky rear triangle if I stand up.
Short answer to the gear question is 'no', the long answer is 'yes but it isn't easy or very durable'. Go 54 x 13/15t instead.
Short (= dinky) structures are usually stiffer than longer ones and the steel chain and seatstays have fairly thick walls.
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I run a SS Jubilee clip around the suspension block, I prefer the firmer ride, particularly when climbing out of the saddle.
Pentaclips are the next tweak (along with new paint jobs and replacement swingarm pivots).
I use a jubilee clip too. Ooh! Didn't know the pentaclips existed...
If you're buying it on cyclescheme, don't forget to get a Brookes saddle while you can get it on the cheap.
Duncan
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Wot's this pentaclip?
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Wot's this pentaclip?
It's a converter from the single pole of the seat post to a double rail for saddles.
CLICKY (http://www.brompton.co.uk/content.asp?p=4&l=1&view=10) bottom of page.
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This front luggage lark... I'm mostly a backpack boy these days but don't want to kill my options. Is it possible to retrofit the luggage block?
there's a braze-on for the block - can be fitted whenever you feel like it
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Wot's this pentaclip?
It's a converter from the single pole of the seat post to a double rail for saddles.
CLICKY (http://www.brompton.co.uk/content.asp?p=4&l=1&view=10) bottom of page.
So, um, it's a seat clamp. Bloody expensive one.
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Buy some Brompton-specific roller skate wheels off eBay for the rolley-wheels at the back, 'cos the plastic one aren't up to much.
Brompton do another set of wheels (the top item here (http://www.brompton.co.uk/content.asp?p=4&l=1&view=14#)).
They are still narrow (so don't snag your heels) but roll very well (too well in my case)
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After a quick browse, I'd have
"S" type
Standard 2-speed gears; 56" and 74" are ideal
Optional paint colour, possibly apple green
Ti extended seat pillar
Stelvio tyres (I have these on the Frankendale and they're pretty good)
Fizik saddle
Cover bag thing
No folding pedal, because I'd put SPDs on it, which are already pretty small and non-pointy
Just shy of £700.
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"S" type
Standard 2-speed gears; 56" and 74" are ideal
Optional paint colour, possibly apple green
Ti extended seat pillar
Stelvio tyres (I have these on the Frankendale and they're pretty good)
Fizik saddle
Cover bag thing
No folding pedal, because I'd put SPDs on it, which are already pretty small and non-pointy
Not a bad spec, that. I think I'm veering towards:
S-type with mudguards, no rack
The standard 2-speed looks fine
Barenaked metal (rock!)
I'll test-ride the seat pillars at LBS but it won't be Ti
Stelvios for teh sex
Bag because I'll regret not getting that even though I don't wanna
Questions:
Saddle's a questionable right now, I have a spare B17; does the regular saddle come off? :o
Can you fit Powergrips onto the regular folding pedals?
...and then exploit the Cyclescheme to get a roadie lid for tri's ;)
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I got my Brompton with the Brooks saddle, which I have now robbed and put on my touring bike because I'm using it more often at the moment - so I can say with confidence that the regular saddle will come off - Brompton have a neat little clamp arrangement that sits on top of the seat post.
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I've got a B (and I've done a 50k on it, although I'm not sure I would have cared for much more) which I got after having a second-hand one stolen. I'm working through the Brompton "Bike Explorer" on their Website here.
The S-type handlebars are elegant, but the S-type front bag is tiny. Conversely, with M-type bars you can use the Touring Pannier, which is the largest and therefore the best, and accomodates a laptop bag and clothes/books/etc for a weekend readily. In a stiff headwind I crouch.
I have a 3-speed because that was what the bike shop had and I didn't want to wait forever for a new one. However, if I was getting one custom-made, I'd dither between 2-speed and singlespeed. Nothing wrong with the 3-speed, but the B doesn't really need a huge gear range for urban riding.
Mudguards (duh!). The rear rack, however, doesn't accomodate many normal panniers, and so is as useful as a chocolate fireguard. I've got a huge Carradice saddlebag which can augment the Touring Pannier - and unlike stuff strapped to the top of the rear rack, a saddlebag can stay on the bike when you fold it up.
I need the extended seatpost and I am only 5'10".
I like a B-17 Narrow, so I have another Brompton plastic saddle in my heap of useless saddles.
Brompton Yellow tyres are perfectly satisfactory.
The non-folding LH pedal is a false economy.
I fitted SONs to both Bromptons, and I cannot imagine doing without. The standard B dynamo headlight does not have a standlight; however, a B&M Lumotec Plus (_not_ Oval Plus) just fits under the luggage block using the bracket SJSC sell for fitting Schmidt headlights to a B - or if you are incredibly flush, I imagine a Schmidt Edelux would so fit (but don't buy one just on my say-so). I also have a Cateye 3xAA backup rear light which conveniently can be fitted to the top of the seatpost just above the saddle clamp.
My old B had Kool-Stop Salmons, and so will the new one when it gets through a set of brake pads.
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Conversely, with M-type bars you can use the Touring Pannier, which is the largest and therefore the best, and accomodates a laptop bag and clothes/books/etc for a weekend readily. In a stiff headwind I crouch.
That's the bag that I have. Carradice do a touring pannier to fit the Brompton block which might be worth looking at.
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Most of those objections don't really apply to my requirements - this isn't a long haul Brommie, rather an always-handy Brommie.
I'll have to do a triathlon on it at some point...
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Most of those objections don't really apply to my requirements - this isn't a long haul Brommie, rather an always-handy Brommie.
So is mine (mostly) - but a laptop bag and a weekend's supplies for a trip to another city isn't so onerous a requirement.
I missed an option, the super-lightweights. I didn't bother because I never carry the B any distance anyway, just trundling it on the wheels; additionally part of the weight saving is a titanium pedal spindle, which unless you love your dentist might be a bad plan.
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ISTR that Keith Bontrager cautions against clearcoated steel on the basis that it WILL rust. If clearcoat was actually impervious to moisture, you'd see it used more often - and, of course, any non-serious rust that starts under paint is hidden for a long time, whereas it sticks out like a sore thumb with clearcoat.
I'd want to see a clearcoated Brommie that's a few years old.
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In 04 we carried some Nude BMXs that were clearcoated. One had indeed started to rust under the coat.
It looked fecking awesome.
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Questions:
Saddle's a questionable right now, I have a spare B17; does the regular saddle come off? :o
Yes. And you can use any saddle you like on there if you have the majik Pentaclip. I actually bought a Pentaclip as my 2nd hand Brommie was sporting an old-style saddle clip which wobbled. As did the second one I tried. The Pentaclip is beautifully made and is actually worth the £20 you pay for it, I reckon.
The Brooks Brompton saddle is just a B17 with big rivets and "Brompton" stamped into the logo. Nothing special.
Can you fit Powergrips onto the regular folding pedals?
I doubt it.
Go with flat pedals, don't use clips or SPDs or anything. It may seem like an anathema at first for a seasoned clipless user, but you'll grow to like it for the sheer convenience of the thing. Sure, if you're going to audax or do a tri or something, whack some SPDs on for the day, but the whole point of a Brommie is that it can be ridden in street shoes and street clothes.
At least try it this way first :)
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Can you fit Powergrips onto the regular folding pedals?
I doubt it.
The Amey Home Page (http://www.amey.org.uk/pages/bicycles/FoldingPedalToeClips) is not the one I remember, but it's a good explanation of how to fit a toeclip.
That said, I agree with Charlotte that you should try it. I've ridden in clips and straps since I was about 13, and I still feel OK on the B without. Don't know why.
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I'll give it a go.
Today's LBS experimentation says "the regular seatpost at full extension is perfick" and "s-type rocks my world". :thumbsup:
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What's your inside leg, Andy, and did you try with SPDs (which I think add an extra cm or so)?
Edit: are you going for 2-speed or 3-speed? 3 speed gives you fairly nice 46", 61" and 82" gears (with Stelvio tyres), a 1/8" chain and perfect chainline. You also get fewer Brompton-only parts, which makes it easier for spares. SA spares (control chains, sprockets, shifters) are really easy to get hold of, and the hubs are incredibly reliable.
On the other hand, 2-speed is over 1kg lighter and has no internal losses (although the most commonly-used 61" gear is direct drive on the SA hub and therefore slightly better than a derailleur system, given the chainline and lack of jockey wheels). Hmm.
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I've got the form in front of me! Squee!
I was in street shoes, and as C observed that's mostly how I'll be riding this. If I do plan on a big trains'n'Brommies tour, or something, I can fit my Times from another machine.
My hardon for simplicity is pointing toward the 2-speed. One for rolling, one for hills, and the efficiency and weight savings both make me quite keen on that. Standard gears look fine.
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I think the reason the 3-speed is so much heavier is that it needs a chain tensioner, which is more or less the same size and weight as a derailleur. Basically the 2-speed adds a sprocket, then saves the difference in weight between a SA hub and a standard hub.
It's not like the feted "Rohloff only weighs as much as a 27-speed derailleur setup" thing.
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One more thing...
Tyres: I don't know what it's like with Stelvios, but fixing punctures on a Brompton is generally a nightmare. My solution to this is to use Schwalbe Marathon's and try to have as few punctures as possible. I guess there is a possibility that it's easier to get the Stelvios on and off without puncuring the tube. Does anyone have any experience of this?
My 26" Stelvios are easily removed from the rim without tyre levers. DT rims are quite easy for most tyres, though, and the Brompton ones may have a shallow "well" or be slightly oversized.
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I've taken the plunge and ordered it! A very Spartan beastie, S2L with Stelvios, barenaked lacquer and pentaclip for my spare B17. ;D
Thanks for the advice, peeps. :thumbsup:
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Yay!
More Bromptoneers!
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If the penny keeps killing me I might even take it to the beach. :demon:
4-5 weeks.
* does the new bike dance *
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4-5 weeks.
How long before they move production to Taiwan?
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If they did, I reckon they'd lose half their sales.
Actually, some foreign-market Bromptons were once made in Taiwan, but the quality (surprisingly - Taiwan is generally streets ahead of mainland China) was unacceptable and they pulled the project.
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A surprising number of their parts gets made in the far east already.
This includes all their Ti frame components.
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A surprising number of their parts gets made in the far east already.
This includes all their Ti frame components.
I thought they dual-sourced them from China and Russia, to avoid being tied to a single supplier (they've been caught out a couple of times previously). Has that changed?
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I'm sure that they said the far east when Zipperhead and I had the factory tour a couple of years ago. Maybe it's changed now. They're not daft, that's for sure.
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Taiwan's very good at Ti.
I think they're just cannily aware of the risk of fast expansion of their business. Having seen a couple of businesses over-expand then have to lay off and close up some sites when their bubble burst, I'm impressed with their sensibility.
Anyway, the LBS had four that I could have walked away with, if I wanted that spec. The M6L in baby blue was a close call. It's not like they're scarce...
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The SA 3-speed hubs (which is what you get an a pure 3-speed; the 6-speed uses a SRAM 3-speed hub) are made in Taiwan, but apparently SA quality was atrocious during the final decades in Britain, and SunRace bought a bit of a pig in a poke - they found all the machine tools shipped over from Nottingham were utterly worn-out and had to get new ones made. I don't know if current designs eliminate the notorious "neutral" between middle and top gear, but tolerances are certainly improved.
There's a depressing history of SA here:
Elegy for Sturmey-Archer (http://www.hadland.me.uk/elegy.htm)
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I don't know if current designs eliminate the notorious "neutral" between middle and top gear, but tolerances are certainly improved.
None of the Sunrace SA hubs have a neutral and SA was producing a NIG 3sp (No Intermediate Gear) before they got asset-stripped.
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That's good.
I do wonder about the change to grease lubrication though. Cleaner, yes, but what does it do for efficiency? And once the thing is nicely run-in (the efficiency figures are, surprisingly, up there with a clean derailleur system once this is done), surely you'd want to get all the swarf out?
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Can anyone recommend someone to service a brommie. Mines suffered a fair bit of abuse, and I want an expert to tell me if I need a new SRAM hub or not. It feels like it slips a bit in certain gears...
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And once the thing is nicely run-in (the efficiency figures are, surprisingly, up there with a clean derailleur system once this is done), surely you'd want to get all the swarf out?
I agree, have a look at Hubstripping.com (http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/) for a motherload of hubby goodness.