Base training

[simonp]

I’m following TB HV. Last weekend of first block now. 2h45 today. Same tomorrow.

At least it’s recovery week coming up. Wait, what, that’s 4x2h?

Kill me now.

Do you do it outside or on turbo?

I've been mixing outdoors in where possible (i.e. tolerable weather). I did 3x 1h45 (Virginia) midweek, was supposed to be 2x2h45, but I decided I'd find it easier breaking it up a bit. I struggled a bit on Thursday. Yesterday was bad weather, and I watched the Wales v Scotland match and did the 2h45 - I found that easier, I expect from a combination of the rugby and not having worked all day beforehand. I couldn't face that again today, so did a 66km tile bagging ride today, and got wet. Bike is filthy now.

I don't know how I'll cope if the weather is very bad and I have a 3h z2 Wednesday evening ride scheduled, next month...

[Frank9755]

For something different I've just done two weeks of VO2Max intervals.  There are various posts on the TR  forum which suggest this might be a good way to push up FTP before starting a block of training.

VO2 max intervals were not too bad.  Didn't take too long, and it was a good challenge to stay on top of them.  I slightly worry that I wasn't doing them properly because of limitations in my setup (low end smart trainer), but I did the best I could.  I didn't do much other riding so managed to put back on a bit of extra weight.

Ramp test tomorrow - I'll find out if it worked or not.

Well, it didn't work.  I actually binned out on the FTP test as I could see that I was going to end up lower than I had done two weeks ago.  I might not have been much lower, but I couldn't make myself carry on under the circumstances.

What to do?

I was going to go back to SS base then build, but I'm not sure now.  Trad base has some appeal, but it's a bit grim in winter.

[basset]

For something different I've just done two weeks of VO2Max intervals.  There are various posts on the TR  forum which suggest this might be a good way to push up FTP before starting a block of training.

VO2 max intervals were not too bad.  Didn't take too long, and it was a good challenge to stay on top of them.  I slightly worry that I wasn't doing them properly because of limitations in my setup (low end smart trainer), but I did the best I could.  I didn't do much other riding so managed to put back on a bit of extra weight.

Ramp test tomorrow - I'll find out if it worked or not.

Well, it didn't work.  I actually binned out on the FTP test as I could see that I was going to end up lower than I had done two weeks ago.  I might not have been much lower, but I couldn't make myself carry on under the circumstances.

What to do?

I was going to go back to SS base then build, but I'm not sure now.  Trad base has some appeal, but it's a bit grim in winter.

I find as I have gotten older (53) that I don’t have many ramp(ftp) test in me per year , I also find if I do one well my ftp is too high for training purposes and I end up struggling , this is on TrainerRoad.
This year I have not done a ramp test since February (260) but did on the free trial do the Sufferfest 4DP test this also said 260ftp .
I started TrainerRoad SS base and set my ftp to 255 it was plenty hard enough for the first few weeks and I am now on week 5 and for the last few weeks have been able to up the % power a little .
Ftp is only a estimate of what you can train at from my experience don’t get to worried I have done this in the past.
As a example I did the warlow workout on Sunday with the ftp set at 255 for the first interval then put it up 1% for each of the next 4 intervals it was doable but obviously hard and I nearly enjoyed it but 2 and a bit years ago I did the same workout with my ftp tested and set at 290 and I finished it and promptly binned the turbo for the winter as I could not face doing workouts at that level and let me tell you I’m not bad at suffering I’ve done a 24tt 
Be careful what you wish for ftp wise especially in early winter.
If I were you (and I’m not so feel free to shoot me for sticking my head up) I would set your ftp slightly conservatively do the first few weeks then increase it on the % power a little you will get a feel for it that way .
I’m not going to test till after ss base two if even then this year I’m feeling the best at this stage I have for years so it’s working for me.
Just my thoughts interesting to here of others.

[akin]

I have just started doing some intervals and structured sessions for the first time. Currently on standard trainer I owned but not really used with added speed, cadence and HRM for predicted power. Found it a little frustrating getting resistance correct to match up to suggested cadence and the estimated power. The levels were also set off estimates and then a ramp test I found difficult to manage with the limitations I had. The worry is around working from the wrong FTP level and the impact it has on subsequent session difficulty. As has been mentioned I suppose it is only problematic if they are far too hard or far too easy. I am now considering getting a smart trainer with an ERG mode now Im clearer I want to proceed with this over winter.

I have used up a trial with Sufferfest. Decided I find some of the narrative and humour a little grating and am more interested in just the structure of sessions. Whilst the Yoga sessions were an advantage which nearly swayed me into subscribing I have now found an alternative I like elsewhere. As a result I think i'm going to try trainer roads next.

Im thinking about how it potentially fits into my wider riding. I don't have a power meter for when I am out on the bike, nor do I have a compatible garmin/cycle computer for downloading the workouts. That leaves me questions around;

- How easy does TR makes it for you to follow certain workouts outside without power?
- Could I for instance follow the basic's of the session using HR zones only during my outside rides? (I understand this introduces some limitations in measuring effort if you are being really strict)
- Would I just be better off using a TR training plan of lower number of weekly sessions indoors and using my outside rides for less structured riding?

[DuncanM]

The TR podcast is worth listening to if you are going to use their program. Also, anyone who has a current TR account probably has referrals that can give you a free month (I'm afraid I can't because I have shut my account for the moment as I'm injured and haven't ridden since May).
In terms of outside rides, I think it depends what rides the plan requires. I don't have a compatible headunit (I've an old Lezyne) but I do have a power meter, so when I wanted to do a TR ride outside it was basically trying to copy the structure and apply it during the ride. I'd imagine with a compatible HU it would be a lot easier, and without power it would be tricky. If it's a set of print intervals or something you could probably do it, but unless you are very aware of your power and pacing, trying to do anything around threshold would be quite hard to get right (and you would never know because you can't measure it).
I would probably choose a low volume plan indoors and supplement it with fun outdoor rides anyway - I didn't find it fun trying to put structure onto outdoor rides.

[simonp]

You can use RPE outside with TR workouts. But I avoid doing the structured stuff outside and just do volume z2 rides outdoors. It’s much easier to use HR for this kind of work than with intervals - a power meter is not such a big factor.

[Lightning Phil]

^^^ this

Just do your longer lower intensity endurance work outside and the high intensity intervals on the turbo.

[JonB]

I've never tried to do the TR workouts outdoors (I'm new to TR so still learning). I've got a number of referral codes to get a free trial period, if you want one, PM me with your email details

[Frank9755]

For something different I've just done two weeks of VO2Max intervals.  There are various posts on the TR  forum which suggest this might be a good way to push up FTP before starting a block of training.

VO2 max intervals were not too bad.  Didn't take too long, and it was a good challenge to stay on top of them.  I slightly worry that I wasn't doing them properly because of limitations in my setup (low end smart trainer), but I did the best I could.  I didn't do much other riding so managed to put back on a bit of extra weight.

Ramp test tomorrow - I'll find out if it worked or not.

Well, it didn't work.  I actually binned out on the FTP test as I could see that I was going to end up lower than I had done two weeks ago.  I might not have been much lower, but I couldn't make myself carry on under the circumstances.

What to do?

I was going to go back to SS base then build, but I'm not sure now.  Trad base has some appeal, but it's a bit grim in winter.

I find as I have gotten older (53) that I don’t have many ramp(ftp) test in me per year , I also find if I do one well my ftp is too high for training purposes and I end up struggling , this is on TrainerRoad.
This year I have not done a ramp test since February (260) but did on the free trial do the Sufferfest 4DP test this also said 260ftp .
I started TrainerRoad SS base and set my ftp to 255 it was plenty hard enough for the first few weeks and I am now on week 5 and for the last few weeks have been able to up the % power a little .
Ftp is only a estimate of what you can train at from my experience don’t get to worried I have done this in the past.
As a example I did the warlow workout on Sunday with the ftp set at 255 for the first interval then put it up 1% for each of the next 4 intervals it was doable but obviously hard and I nearly enjoyed it but 2 and a bit years ago I did the same workout with my ftp tested and set at 290 and I finished it and promptly binned the turbo for the winter as I could not face doing workouts at that level and let me tell you I’m not bad at suffering I’ve done a 24tt 
Be careful what you wish for ftp wise especially in early winter.
If I were you (and I’m not so feel free to shoot me for sticking my head up) I would set your ftp slightly conservatively do the first few weeks then increase it on the % power a little you will get a feel for it that way .
I’m not going to test till after ss base two if even then this year I’m feeling the best at this stage I have for years so it’s working for me.
Just my thoughts interesting to here of others.

I'm 53 too.

My context is that my power was a fair bit higher 4-5 years ago, then having a baby and some other things led to lifestyle changes, and I've never got back to anywhere near where I was.  I'm aiming to push it higher than before - back then I didn't train but just rode my bike - as I have a couple of TT goals which depend on it. 

I have some frustration from seeing others in middle age start doing systematic training and getting benefit from it while I've not found anything that works better for me than just riding lots - which I don't have time to do nowadays. 

So, with this, I tried a few things differently and thought I was making progress, but then tried something else and found out that I was not. 

That's disappointing but means I need to make some more changes to find what works for me.  Clearly doing VO2 Max and nothing else for a couple of weeks doesn't.  It's good to know that so I don't need to do it again!

I've stuck to TR reasonably well over the last couple of years and not had stellar results.  Maybe trad base would be worth a shot.... 

[Frank9755]

Just had a look at trad base.  It's basically commuting.

[zigzag]

commuting* is good for base miles, i used to have 7.5-8hrs of z1-2 "training" while commuting each week. add a couple of higher intensity rides/workouts and it's a good recipe to stay fit.

this video talks about base training, done "the right way": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsXh6wyUlR8

* one of the best things about it is consistency

[basset]

I could not do the trad base unless I was not working and even then I think I wouldn’t do it because I would just go out riding my bike.

[Frank9755]

commuting* is good for base miles, i used to have 7.5-8hrs of z1-2 "training" while commuting each week. add a couple of higher intensity rides/workouts and it's a good recipe to stay fit.

this video talks about base training, done "the right way": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsXh6wyUlR8

* one of the best things about it is consistency

Yes, me too. But I think I'll struggle to do it now I'm not commuting.

So I've just started SS base. Let's see how it goes. Will add some longer rides as and when.

[Frank9755]

I could not do the trad base unless I was not working and even then I think I wouldn’t do it because I would just go out riding my bike.

Yes, agree with that too.

[rob]

commuting* is good for base miles, i used to have 7.5-8hrs of z1-2 "training" while commuting each week. add a couple of higher intensity rides/workouts and it's a good recipe to stay fit.

this video talks about base training, done "the right way": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsXh6wyUlR8

* one of the best things about it is consistency

Agreed.  I used to have 10hrs per week of commuting with a couple of turbo sessions and then a long road ride once a week.  I now live further from work so it’s 2h30 each way.  At the moment I’m doing this on a Tuesday and a Thursday and turboing Mon/Wed/Fri.  I’ll still do a long ride on Saturday.   It should give me roughly the same weekly hours but it’s a bit lumpy.   It’s only week 1 so I’ll review after a few weeks.

[Frank9755]

That's a good commute if you are doing it regularly!

Which way do you go: hrough the lanes and then epping forest? That's a regular one for me, riding to my sister's place near Chelmsford, and I often lengthen it a bit by going round by Dunmow /Finchingfield / Felsted.

I really enjoy the lanes but had a fall a couple of years ago, bike just disappeared from under me for no apparent reason when at speed. Turned out it was a farmer who had spilled some grain on the road and it was just like ball bearings!

[rob]

That's a good commute if you are doing it regularly!

Which way do you go: hrough the lanes and then epping forest? That's a regular one for me, riding to my sister's place near Chelmsford, and I often lengthen it a bit by going round by Dunmow /Finchingfield / Felsted.

I really enjoy the lanes but had a fall a couple of years ago, bike just disappeared from under me for no apparent reason when at speed. Turned out it was a farmer who had spilled some grain on the road and it was just like ball bearings!

I live in Felsted now (you’re welcome to drop in for coffee, eventually).  I go High Easter/Leaden Roding/Fyfield/Ongar/under M25/Lambourne End and then Chigwell Row.  I pick up the cycle paths in Stratford and straight into the City (I’m now based near Liverpool St).  I think the laney bit might be sketchy in Winter so I need to do a bit of research.

[rob]

The other difference this year is that I’m giving myself one complete day off each week.

[Frank9755]

I think I might flip to Trad Base.  Would be good to get out of the house during the week and ride around a bit, especially if it will be slightly less busy than usual over the next month. 

[basset]

Week 5 of sweet spot base finished today probably going to take a few weeks off before moving on to base 2 but it’s keeping occupied on the dark mid week nights and I’m still getting out with er in doors once over the weekend as well .

[simonp]

I'm starting TB HV II on Tuesday. Restarted I as I had a break due to hurting my back and decided I needed to reset. No ramp test on Tuesday as I'm still working through all the cardiology tests they can think of.

[Frank9755]

Trad base going well so far. Beautiful morning in Richmond Park with mist, deer antlers sticking through it, a beautiful sunrise and no cars let in while I was there.

Question @simonp or anyone, for trad base do you try to follow their power targets, or just ride at a normal steady pace?

I'm doing the latter, not as fast as say the first 100km of an audax, and at a level I could repeat every day, but a bit higher power than TR suggests. Am I doing it wrong?

[simonp]

I try to stay vaguely in the right zone. I don’t try to follow the power target closely. Picking a flat route is a good idea for this. I had a couple of proper climbs yesterday and went well above target. I’d have probably fallen over riding at 160 Watts. I can ride the same roads over and over but it starts to get repetitive.  I’ve been told in the past that going above threshold on climbs can cause you to stay out of fat burning for some time afterwards so you lose some of the adaptations you would otherwise have got.

[Bobby]

I bailed on TrainerRoad (realiesd that I only ever stuck with it for short bursts, then got bored so my form just yo-yo'd).  Instead I've moved to Rouvy as an internal VR platform for riding routes around the world they don't have a training calendar or plan builder - but I do like the rides, their challenges, and overall career structure that enforces a reasonable volume for several months.

After prolonged irregular or inactivity, Dads funeral, and what would have been his birthday in mid-Aug I decided to put in some effort to get back into regular riding.  Almost exclusively indoors on a Wahoo Kickr + Rouvy. Using https://intervals.icu/ I've seem my 'Fitness' (I guess CTL) climb steadily from 37 to 72 in only 10 weeks.  The ramp has leveled off now, I guess it'll settle between 75 & 85 until I start doing long outdoor rides & audax's again.  Using Strava's Fitness thing, it's gone form 27 to 89 - however you count it, it's a nice steady progression.

My plan is to keep that going until the new year, then plan how to either ramp up or focus on training for a specific event.  I'd been targeting RATN in May, given Covid I'm far from convince I'll be able to make it though, so perhaps something later in the year & closer to home will make more sense...

I really CBA to do FTP tests at the moment, but I can see great improvements in my PR times, and 'power to HR' (eg at 155BPM, I could only hold 213W in Aug, but by the end of Oct I can hold 242W)  There are similar improvements at all levels, and for best power intervals ranging from 10s up to 2h, all up in the order of 10-20%.  I know it'll get harder from here on, but am feeling good about it so far 

[Frank9755]

I try to stay vaguely in the right zone. I don’t try to follow the power target closely. Picking a flat route is a good idea for this. I had a couple of proper climbs yesterday and went well above target. I’d have probably fallen over riding at 160 Watts. I can ride the same roads over and over but it starts to get repetitive.  I’ve been told in the past that going above threshold on climbs can cause you to stay out of fat burning for some time afterwards so you lose some of the adaptations you would otherwise have got.

I'm finding it does depend on the roads.  Today I had to go into town for something so it was a bit stop and start.  My average power was where it should be but there were more zeros and higher powered intervals.  It was maybe more like sweet spot intervals than Z2. 

Yesterday was Richmond Park where I can pedal most of the time, so my average power was a bit higher than it should be, but I would have spent less time at high power than today

Overall I'm enjoying Trad Base, but I do worry that it isn't doing much for me.  For an audax rider, it's not that hard to ride for two hours per day in zone 2 so it can't be stressing my system very much.  I feel I should be pushing harder to make it a challenge, and I could push quite a bit harder without affecting my ability to do the same the next day.  But I'll stick with it and see what happens.