Author Topic: 1" headset/quill stem - bad idea or viable choice?  (Read 5798 times)

Re: 1" headset/quill stem - bad idea or viable choice?
« Reply #25 on: 24 May, 2018, 10:02:36 pm »
it's worth researching beforehand if the handlebar type/shape you prefer is manufactured in 26mm clamp diameter. the last time i looked there were none that suit me (only the old school ones that keep hitting forearms when riding out of saddle).

Actually this might be an issue, I'm not so keen on the Noodle bar shape that seems common on bikes with quill stems :-(

Although these look like an okay shape, with a long flat ramp behind the hoods (shown shifters similar to mine): https://velo-orange.com/collections/handlebars/products/grand-cru-course-handlebar-classic-round-bend

Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: 1" headset/quill stem - bad idea or viable choice?
« Reply #26 on: 24 May, 2018, 10:05:46 pm »
If you go this route, leave enough fork steerer for at least a 40mm stack height headset.  Too many early 90s forks are cut down to 32mm stack height for contemporary Shimano headsets.

I'd recommend a Tange Falcon cartridge bearing headset.  Fit and forget.

Expander(as opposed to wedge) stems are best avoided IME.  They can take some serious wrestling out even when not seized.  The stem literally expands at its base, not as elastically as the makers seem to think.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: 1" headset/quill stem - bad idea or viable choice?
« Reply #27 on: 24 May, 2018, 10:06:41 pm »
What is the disadvantage of a faceplate stem? I'm always leery of scratching the bars when feeding them through a trad stem, and some shapes with tight bends may not go through at all.

Re: 1" headset/quill stem - bad idea or viable choice?
« Reply #28 on: 24 May, 2018, 10:15:03 pm »


cinelli mod 65 . No wrist clashes when sprinting.  Also see mod 63,64,66.

One reason I prefer cone type expanders is that they can be set correctly, i.e. so that in a prang, your handlebars will turn rather than bend. They don't need to be done up very tightly  and they are not so 'on/off' as wedge type ones. They certainly do not 'permanently expand' or anything.... ::-)

The sole reason for the existence of wedge type stems is that they are cheaper to make.

cheers

Re: 1" headset/quill stem - bad idea or viable choice?
« Reply #29 on: 24 May, 2018, 10:18:32 pm »
What is the disadvantage of a faceplate stem?

more likely to creak, uglier, more likely to crush the handlebars into a funny shape, more likely to gouge lumps out of people in a prang.

cheers
 

Re: 1" headset/quill stem - bad idea or viable choice?
« Reply #30 on: 24 May, 2018, 10:23:58 pm »
I use both. Quill and Ahead stem adapter in a steel frame. The reason I use the ugly adapter is that I can't get 46cm wide bars for a Quill.
Nothing left to prove. http://adenough1.blogspot.co.uk/

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: 1" headset/quill stem - bad idea or viable choice?
« Reply #31 on: 24 May, 2018, 10:25:55 pm »
You can try and avoid scratching the bars by removing the clamp bolt and putting a wedge in the slot (half a clothes peg).  Some bar/stem tolerances are just in the wrong direction though.  Never had a problem with 25.4 Nitto bars in a 25.4 stem but 26.0 bars can be a bit oversize in a 26.0 stem  A 25.8 stem (Ritchey/3TTT/ITM) is no good for 26.0 bars, whatever the makers say.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Samuel D

Re: 1" headset/quill stem - bad idea or viable choice?
« Reply #32 on: 24 May, 2018, 10:31:24 pm »
It is hard to determine the shape of drop handlebars online, because sellers photograph their products from useless angles (three-quarter view like Brucey’s above) and distances (too close).

However, Nitto has a PDF catalogue showing how their bars look when viewed squarely from the side, above, and the front. In combination with the dimensions, these images tell you all you need to know. Nitto has a huge range of models (including some not listed in that catalogue).

What don’t you like about the Nitto Noodle? It’s beautifully made but it does sometimes bruise my forearms when out of the saddle. The vaunted flat ramps are no more comfortable than other shapes I’ve tried. I’m not sure why people go gaga over flat ramps. I like the fairly long reach, but I think the bar might be better with a bit more drop to give the palms some more space in the hooks.

Note that many quill stems are 25.4 mm rather than 26.0 mm. This affects your choice of bars although 25.4 mm bars can be used in 26.0 mm clamps with shims.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: 1" headset/quill stem - bad idea or viable choice?
« Reply #34 on: 24 May, 2018, 10:39:20 pm »
I use both. Quill and Ahead stem adapter in a steel frame. The reason I use the ugly adapter is that I can't get 46cm wide bars for a Quill.

These go up to 46cm wide: https://velo-orange.com/collections/handlebars/products/grand-cru-course-handlebar-classic-round-bend
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

Re: 1" headset/quill stem - bad idea or viable choice?
« Reply #35 on: 25 May, 2018, 07:40:54 am »
It is hard to determine the shape of drop handlebars online, because sellers photograph their products from useless angles (three-quarter view like Brucey’s above).....

you obviously can't tell everything about a handlebar from a single photo but what you can tell from some (and is the reason why I very carefully chose that particular photo from the many hundreds of Cinelli Mod 65 that are available online) is that it very clearly shows the large radius transition from the tops to the ramps, and that it certainly won't result in a wrist clash when using the drops.

BTW to hear folks bang on about handlebar shapes, fitting into stems and Gawd knows what else one would suppose that quill stems and the bars that fit them had been around for about five minutes and thus far had all been made by folk that were wet behind the ears.

If you are daft enough to want the (IMHO) invariably ugly, often uncomfortable and (definitely) less durable modern style of handlebar, then don't expect them to fit in a randomly selected quill stem.

If you buy a stem and bars that come from the same manufacturer then they should be made to fit one another. A complication is that old Cinelli bars and stems (made prior to about 1990...? IDSTR the exact date of change...) were made with a 26.4mm clamp.

Apologies if this is b- obvious but when fitting bars to (say) a 1A stem then you should have the nosebolt on the inside of every bend as you feed the bars through; the stem is the shape it is (i.e. with a tapered profile when viewed from the front) so that will go round the bends nicely.

If you want to mix and match then you can do; shims to take up any gap there might be (I have run 26.0mm bars in a 26.4mm cinelli stem for yonks with a shim and it has been fine) and a little reaming to make stems that are too small fit bars they were never designed for.

If you do get a scuff on a reinforcing centre sleeve it is not the end of the world; unlike a single-walled bar where any marks or deformations are often fatal to the handlebar, a small scuff is usually harmless and can be covered with a computer mount or whatever.   Because of the way the reinforcing centre sleeve works, you can even strip the anodising off and polish scratches out; it is extremely unlikely to cause the bars to break or anything.

BTW it is virtually certain that any handlebar with a reinforcing centre sleeve has been made by cold-forming the bends in the handlebar at a late stage in the manufacturing process. By contrast many modern single-walled bars are made by forming them when they are in the soft condition, then age-hardening them; cold setting or bending in a prang is far more likely to break such handlebars.  Cold-set bars with centre sleeves can almost invariably be reset after a prang or modified in shape to suit a specific need (eg wider at the drops or something); not with complete impunity, but much more than you might imagine.

Speaking of imagining things, anyone who thinks they 'need' a bar over 42cm is probably imagining it; it is  (IMHO) just a modern fashion to have wide bars.  For many decades no-one made bars wider than 42cm and then they (grudgingly) started to make them 44cm. 46cm is just ridiculous (and might not be 46cm anyway; some manufacturers measure outside to outside and some C to C).  If having wide bars were 'necessary for breathing properly' then TT bikes would be  built with bars that wide too. I myself have much wider than average shoulders and I definitely go slower on wide bars than narrow ones simply because they force me to punch a bigger hole through the air.

All things being equal you should probably run more trail in the steering when you use wider bars (else you are more likely to be 'a twitchy wheel'), expect not to hold such a straight line when sprinting, not to be able to squeeze through gaps in a bunch so easily, and not to go as quickly when riding in the wind.

cheers

Re: 1" headset/quill stem - bad idea or viable choice?
« Reply #36 on: 25 May, 2018, 08:35:05 am »
Lots of Nitto bar shapes out there.
https://www.velovitality.co.uk/collections/handlebars/products/nitto-m151f-compact-drops
Yes but so expensive with shipping as well. I can buy 46cm bars for about £15 here in the UK. I disagree with Brucey on his comments on 46cm bars. I find them vastly more comfortable on the bike and the way I ride uphill, low with my hands gripping the hoods, is far more efficient for me on long climbs. We are all different.
Nothing left to prove. http://adenough1.blogspot.co.uk/

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: 1" headset/quill stem - bad idea or viable choice?
« Reply #37 on: 25 May, 2018, 09:53:11 am »
Nitto don't make cheap and nasty bars and quality costs. Who knew?
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: 1" headset/quill stem - bad idea or viable choice?
« Reply #38 on: 25 May, 2018, 10:10:12 am »
I get on okay with the drop bars on my touring bike (see pic below) though don't think this shape would look wrong on the bike I have in mind, nor work with a quill stem - not appropriate at all, basically! Not sure what the width is, will measure when I'm next at home (am away for the weekend).


Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

Re: 1" headset/quill stem - bad idea or viable choice?
« Reply #39 on: 25 May, 2018, 10:23:33 am »
Nitto don't make cheap and nasty bars and quality costs. Who knew?
My bars are not nasty thank-you very much. Cheap to one is not cheap to another. I've had no problem with them over many years and miles. Why would one make such a comment?
Nothing left to prove. http://adenough1.blogspot.co.uk/

Samuel D

Re: 1" headset/quill stem - bad idea or viable choice?
« Reply #40 on: 25 May, 2018, 11:03:58 am »
you obviously can't tell everything about a handlebar from a single photo but what you can tell from some (and is the reason why I very carefully chose that particular photo from the many hundreds of Cinelli Mod 65 that are available online) is that it very clearly shows the large radius transition from the tops to the ramps […]

A three-quarter view is easily deciphered if you already know the shape of the handlebar. If not, only subtle perspective clues tell you how much of the bend is forward versus down at the transition from tops to drops. That your brain struggles with this is apparent if it appears that the left and right sides of the bar are differently curved – as it does to me in your photo. Viewing distance strongly influences how your brain interprets these perspective clues (try viewing your screen from several feet away), giving no definitive answer to the question of shape.

By contrast, these square-on drawings tell me all I can know about the Mod 65 without trying it (unless it has changed much since the 1960s when the drawings were made):



(Click for larger image.)

BTW to hear folks bang on about handlebar shapes, fitting into stems and Gawd knows what else one would suppose that quill stems and the bars that fit them had been around for about five minutes and thus far had all been made by folk that were wet behind the ears.

Having now tried a few bar shapes including turn-of-the-century ‘anatomic’ (disastrous with no real drops position, only a compromised hooks position, and intolerably ugly), modern shallow-drop compact (also ugly and defeats the purpose of drop handlebars – to provide a large range of positions – but lets you run fewer spacers or a lower stem for street cred with the mouth-breathers), round compact (lack of reach difference from tops to hooks, shallow hooks don’t give much palm space), and Nitto Noodle (hits wrists, shallow hooks lack palm space, flat ramps are no nirvana), I think that at the very least the constant changes cannot be straightforwardly labelled improvements.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: 1" headset/quill stem - bad idea or viable choice?
« Reply #41 on: 25 May, 2018, 11:40:16 am »
Nitto don't make cheap and nasty bars and quality costs. Who knew?
My bars are not nasty thank-you very much. Cheap to one is not cheap to another. I've had no problem with them over many years and miles. Why would one make such a comment?

I'd be interested in the difference in fatigue tests between the two manufacturers. Not many (any?) have more rigorous fatigue testing than Nitto.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: 1" headset/quill stem - bad idea or viable choice?
« Reply #42 on: 25 May, 2018, 09:04:41 pm »
One thing to consider is frame sizing, especially if you want relatively high bars ie 10 or 20mm below the saddle.

 The current fashion for very low top tubes and short head tubes, lots of spacers and upward pointing stems don't really go well with quill stems which extend forwards horizontally and at the max height only about 70mm above the headset locknut.

Bodges (ugly IMO) include an upwards extended headtube or a stem with a very long quill. Or leave the steerer a bit longer and fit a spacer in the headset, which doesn't look too bad as long as the spacer is about 20mm or less.