Author Topic: What metal are drop outs normally made of on a steel bike? (Read 3563 times)

Oxford_Guy · « **on:** 26 May, 2018, 10:38:35 pm »

What metal are drop outs normally made of on a steel bike? Are they forged non-stainless steel normally? If so, how to stop them rusting, as the paint easily chips in the dropouts? Can you get protective inserts? Not a problem on my Cheviot SE, as that has stainless dropouts, but have noticed rusting on other bikes.

Nick H. · « **Reply #1 on:** 26 May, 2018, 10:54:40 pm »

They're steel, either stainless or normal.

Pickled Onion · « **Reply #2 on:** 27 May, 2018, 09:33:54 am »

The drive side is normally protected by a layer of oily gunk from the chain. It's worth putting a drop of oil on the non-drive side nut which migrates on to the dropout, and also on the drive side if you keep everything fastidiously clean.

Brucey · « **Reply #3 on:** 27 May, 2018, 12:25:34 pm »

I have never seen a frame (no matter how badly neglected) that was significantly damaged through corrosion arising from chipped paint on the dropouts.

Stainless dropouts (and lugs) seem like a great idea until you factor in that to braze these materials, you need to use a different flux, the residues of which are about x10 more corrosive than normal. This sort of thing can cause severe corrosion damage inside a frame. Even if the flux residues are removed entirely, the junction between stainless and non-stainless steel (inside the frame where you cannot see it, or outside if the paint has the slightest flaw) is wont to corrode much faster than normal.

Thus stainless dropouts are OK in dry climates, and/or on frames that have the flux residues completely removed (which is incredibly rare IME) or have been/are regularly heavily treated internally with some corrosion protection.

There are very many other aspects of dropouts that are at least as important as what material they are made from.

cheers

Oxford_Guy · « **Reply #4 on:** 28 May, 2018, 09:22:46 am »

Thanks for the replies, learned some new things...

The French Tandem · « **Reply #5 on:** 28 May, 2018, 09:32:17 am »

Mines* were always made of chrome plated steel, probably the same steel as the rest of the frame. It seems to be an efficient method to prevent corrosion.

A

*: at least on all the higher end steel frames that I owned over the years, not on the cheapos!

Oxford_Guy · « **Reply #6 on:** 28 May, 2018, 09:56:01 am »

Quote from: The French Tandem on 28 May, 2018, 09:32:17 am

Mines* were always made of chrome plated steel, probably the same steel as the rest of the frame. It seems to be an efficient method to prevent corrosion.

A

*: at least on all the higher end steel frames that I owned over the years, not on the cheapos!

Getting the dropouts chromed (only - not the forks or seat/chain stays themselves) was something I'd been considering for my next custom build, sounds like it might be worth it?

LittleWheelsandBig · « **Reply #7 on:** 28 May, 2018, 10:34:20 am »

Chroming is generally a bad thing but looks pretty.

The French Tandem · « **Reply #8 on:** 28 May, 2018, 10:59:00 am »

Quote from: LittleWheelsandBig on 28 May, 2018, 10:34:20 am

Chroming is generally a bad thing but looks pretty.

Why do you think it is a bad thing? I love the look of chromed stays, and it seems to be an efficient protection against rust and paint chipping!

LittleWheelsandBig · « **Reply #9 on:** 28 May, 2018, 11:09:36 am »

https://www.anochrome.com/technical/hydrogen-embrittlement/

Chrome can corrode and flake too.

DuncanM · « **Reply #10 on:** 28 May, 2018, 11:14:17 am »

Quote from: The French Tandem on 28 May, 2018, 10:59:00 am

Quote from: LittleWheelsandBig on 28 May, 2018, 10:34:20 am
Chroming is generally a bad thing but looks pretty.

Why do you think it is a bad thing? I love the look of chromed stays, and it seems to be an efficient protection against rust and paint chipping!

Unless rust gets underneath the chrome, in which case you can't touch it up and you can't re-chrome it.

The French Tandem · « **Reply #11 on:** 28 May, 2018, 11:31:28 am »

Quote from: LittleWheelsandBig on 28 May, 2018, 11:09:36 am

https://www.anochrome.com/technical/hydrogen-embrittlement/

Chrome can corrode and flake too.

I learned something today!

mzjo · « **Reply #12 on:** 28 May, 2018, 04:29:26 pm »

Chroming also means polishing the tubes before plating which makes them thinner. Re-finishing the frame means taking the chrome off if there is corrosion present, meaning that the tubes are even thinner. Italian steel frames used to be chromed underneath the paint which makes the subsequent paint job lovely and smooth but the quality of the chroming and the care of the owner make a huge difference to the potential life of the frame (My mate's Fondriest seems to have particularly good finishing, but then he's a lot more fanatical than me!)

Oxford_Guy · « **Reply #13 on:** 28 May, 2018, 08:33:53 pm »

Okay, so maybe chroming wouldn't be such a good idea.. What about completely stainless steel forks? e.g. http://www.victoire-cycles.com/en/our-bikes/our-creations/victoire-stainless-steel-fork-reynolds-953.html

I expect the price would be a bit excessive, though...

mzjo · « **Reply #14 on:** 28 May, 2018, 08:59:28 pm »

Quote from: Oxford_Guy on 28 May, 2018, 08:33:53 pm

Okay, so maybe chroming wouldn't be such a good idea.. What about completely stainless steel forks? e.g. http://www.victoire-cycles.com/en/our-bikes/our-creations/victoire-stainless-steel-fork-reynolds-953.html

I expect the price would be a bit excessive, though...

They would probably want you to buy the whole bike. Ever fancied several holidays in the Auvergne to finalise specs, fitting etc? They probably have a waiting list as well, although I haven't checked on that.

Oxford_Guy · « **Reply #15 on:** 28 May, 2018, 09:49:26 pm »

Quote from: mzjo on 28 May, 2018, 08:59:28 pm

Quote from: Oxford_Guy on 28 May, 2018, 08:33:53 pm
Okay, so maybe chroming wouldn't be such a good idea.. What about completely stainless steel forks? e.g. http://www.victoire-cycles.com/en/our-bikes/our-creations/victoire-stainless-steel-fork-reynolds-953.html

I expect the price would be a bit excessive, though...

They would probably want you to buy the whole bike. Ever fancied several holidays in the Auvergne to finalise specs, fitting etc? They probably have a waiting list as well, although I haven't checked on that.

It wasn't a very serious proposal...

Ian H · « **Reply #16 on:** 28 May, 2018, 09:57:15 pm »

Italian frames with half-chromed fork blades and rear triangles were notorious for rusting. A durable chromed surface requires at least nickel-plating underneath.

mzjo · « **Reply #17 on:** 29 May, 2018, 08:45:27 am »

Quote from: Oxford_Guy on 28 May, 2018, 09:49:26 pm

Quote from: mzjo on 28 May, 2018, 08:59:28 pm
Quote from: Oxford_Guy on 28 May, 2018, 08:33:53 pm
Okay, so maybe chroming wouldn't be such a good idea.. What about completely stainless steel forks? e.g. http://www.victoire-cycles.com/en/our-bikes/our-creations/victoire-stainless-steel-fork-reynolds-953.html

I expect the price would be a bit excessive, though...

They would probably want you to buy the whole bike. Ever fancied several holidays in the Auvergne to finalise specs, fitting etc? They probably have a waiting list as well, although I haven't checked on that.

It wasn't a very serious proposal...

You could talk to Sebastian Klein, who is I believe in London and is involved in the production or finishing (I haven't quite worked out which) of the Aubrac randonneuse for the Confrérie des 650B. Bizarre to have a french randonneuse finished in London but there you are, global commerce knows no bounds.
His site is here: http://brevetcycles.com/

Brucey · « **Reply #18 on:** 29 May, 2018, 09:02:41 am »

FWIW chrome plate done to BS quality on dropouts is usually fairly durable and fairly harmless; both the dropouts and the stay/fork ends are thick enough to take a polish. [Most Italian chrome plate is done to a standard that wouldn't pass muster as BS quality, BTW.]

There is always a risk of hydrogen embrittlement but this will vary with the quality of the plating process and the composition/hardness of the steel (i.e. how it is brazed etc).

I wouldn't ever renew chrome plate on a frame, because polishing twice is too much polishing; IIRC no frame refinisher guarantees that your frame won't just break if they renovate with new chrome.

I also would not expect any chrome plate to survive winter use. But chromed ends on a summer bike might work for you.

cheers

mrcharly-YHT · « **Reply #19 on:** 29 May, 2018, 12:58:24 pm »

IME, while chrome looks pretty one downside is that it makes the dropout very hard and slippery. Non-chromed dropouts are softer and it is easier for wheelnuts/skewers to get a 'bite'.

rogerzilla · « **Reply #20 on:** 29 May, 2018, 08:52:39 pm »

Old steel Campag skewers*, and proper track nuts, are designed to bite into chrome dropouts. Many bikes had chrome in those days. Modern alloy skewers, especially if they have alloy teeth, are less useful and only really work on vertical rear dropouts or front wheels.

*apparently the original ones with straight levers are the cool ones. The CPSC in America made them change to curved levers which tuck out of the way a bit better

Oxford_Guy · « **Reply #21 on:** 30 May, 2018, 09:31:37 pm »

When I see pics of unpainted, non-chromed drop-outs like this, what's to stop these rusting? They don't look like stainless steel to me, or are they, but just not polished?:

Whereas this I presume has had part of the drop-out chromed (which is all that would be needed, I guess, it's the thickest part too)?:

These track ends look like they have some kind of metal insert:

Brucey · « **Reply #22 on:** 30 May, 2018, 09:42:13 pm »

in the photos above the first two dropouts are, I think chromed (although there is a possibility that the first one is stainless steel; anyway the paint hasn't stuck well enough and is chipped around the exposed part).

Chrome plating will extend over the whole dropout and part-way up the stays in both those cases; you cannot easily selectively plate the thickest part of the dropout alone, you plate more than you need (the plated parts are dangled in the plating solution) and then just cover up the plating you don't want to see, with paint.

The stainless insert in the last photo is to protect a cheese-like aluminium dropout when track nuts are repeatedly tightened against it.

cheers

LittleWheelsandBig · « **Reply #23 on:** 30 May, 2018, 09:48:26 pm »

Those Shimano dropouts have to be chromed; they were never stainless.

Gus · « **Reply #24 on:** 30 May, 2018, 10:02:29 pm »

Normally made of steel, you can get both stainless and "normal" steel.
http://www.paragonmachineworks.com/frame-building-parts/dropouts/rear.html
Stainless stell will rust if it's in an environment that are hostile enough.
All my stainless bolts rusts after a couple of years, as I live close to the sea.

Author Topic: What metal are drop outs normally made of on a steel bike? (Read 3563 times)

Nick H.