Author Topic: Self-delusion in sport  (Read 8330 times)

Wowbagger

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Self-delusion in sport
« on: 04 October, 2015, 10:59:12 pm »
As we have seen with great clarity this weekend, possibly with greater clarity than ever before, the powers-that-be in British, and most particularly English, sport have come up with a remarkable amount of egg on their faces. Looking at the sorry state of English rugby, even as a Wales supporter, gives me no satisfaction whatever. It isn't just the management who are self-deluded, it is also the press. There were so many pundits who were expecting a lot more of England in this world cup than they were capable of delivering, and it sets me asking a number of questions. I ask these questions in the knowledge that there are plenty of people who contribute to these pages who are England supporters who, judging by the posts I have read, were better judges of their team's ability than the so-called "experts" have been.

Over the years it hasn't just been the English rugby team. It been even more noticeable in football. With football, it seems to be a lot easier to see why England perennially underperforms: football is much more big business than sport and the big clubs, geared as they are to their prima donna players on ridiculous salaries, are there purely to make money and such romantic ideals as patriotism and playing for your country don't matter a damn. All the best players in the premiership are foreign, and most of the most successful managers as well. The same pundits who are now wringing their hands about England's performance against Wales and Australia also tell me that England is better equipped, in terms of money, numbers of players and club structure, than any other country in the world. Is this really true? If so, why is it not better reflected in the team's performance?

In rugby, much of the success seems to come from employing foreign players and coaches. Warren Gatland has been Wales's chief coach for years and he had consistently got them to punch above their weight in world rugby. There is another thread on here about rugby players' nationalities: it seems that there is a remarkable number of players whose nationality is sufficiently mixed that they could pick seemingly a number of countries to represent. Toby Faletau (Wales) is cousin to the Vunipolas (England, but brought up in Wales). All three are Tongan by parentage, although one Vunipola was born in Australia and the other in New Zealand! Faletau was born in Tonga. Even (arguably) England's best player in the modern era, Martin Johnson, played for New Zealand u-21 team and I think that there are few who would argue that his skill and ability as a player (and, possibly, his selective application of the Laws!) were not enhanced by his experience in New Zealand.

So what is it that holds back our indigenous players and coaches?

Can a team really be objectively judged when the media, whose job it is to sell papers, exaggerate their abilities? Can the press ever be objective? I am basing this question on the assumption that people would rather buy a paper that tells us how great something is than one that is a bit more (self) critical, and a bit more objective.

I'm really fascinated by this (and I haven't mentioned cricket or tennis, the excellent Andy Murray being a clear exception to the above and the only genuinely World Class male tennis player from these shores in my lifetime).
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Jaded

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Re: Self-delusion in sport
« Reply #1 on: 05 October, 2015, 12:20:50 am »
Tim Henman was world class.  :thumbsup:

As for successful home grown coaches

It is simpler than it looks.

Wowbagger

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Re: Self-delusion in sport
« Reply #2 on: 05 October, 2015, 12:24:49 am »
OK, I'll give you one out of two - but doesn't that prove my point rather?
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Jaded

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Re: Self-delusion in sport
« Reply #3 on: 05 October, 2015, 12:26:15 am »
You'll have to explain why you don't count Sir Clive Woodward.
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Re: Self-delusion in sport
« Reply #4 on: 05 October, 2015, 01:15:38 am »
One factor in England's performance may have been the weird selection procedure, which meant that players like Armitage weren't even considered because they play for foreign clubs.  But I think your comparison with Premier League football is incomplete, when you state that the majority of the best players are foreign.  As a Newcastle supporter, I can confirm that the majority of the worst players are foreign, too.  Also, I think a big sub-set of English internationals in most sports cannot be accused of expecting to win.  Expecting to lose oozes out of their pores  - so much for sports psychologists.

Furthermore, England, learn how to kick to touch!  I've never seen anything like it, even at schoolboy level.

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Re: Self-delusion in sport
« Reply #5 on: 05 October, 2015, 04:14:56 am »
I was also going to mention the RFU's dumbass selection policy wrt players at FOREIGN clubs.  There is an increasing number of transplanted southern hemisphere types cropping up in European national sides (I think the Italians started it but the rest followed suit) yet if you are a BRITON wanting to ply your trade in France you don't even get considered ??? 

If Argentina did that they'd hardly be able to field a side at all - they argued pretty strongly that the Six Nations should have turned into Seven because all their top players were with European clubs (and they probably reckoned they'd stand a better chance of winning the odd game than they would against AUS, NZ & RSA :demon:)

This doesn't totally explain Why England Are Not Terribly Good, of course, and it did take the FA a long time to notice Owen Hargreaves.  Silly boy, playing for a shoddy outfit like Bayern München.
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Jaded

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Re: Self-delusion in sport
« Reply #6 on: 05 October, 2015, 04:44:22 am »
As a Newcastle supporter, I canonfirm that the majority of the worst players are foreign, too.
;D ;D
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Re: Self-delusion in sport
« Reply #7 on: 05 October, 2015, 07:09:15 am »
I believe England were ranked No4 in the tournament - this determined by an impartial algorithm.

It was therefore quite realistic to expect them to reach the Quarters.
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Re: Self-delusion in sport
« Reply #8 on: 05 October, 2015, 07:48:12 am »
It doesn't address the broader point but I do think it in the nature of some press (of many/all nations?) to 'big up' their nations' chances. The feel good factor or somesuch. France did it with their football team a couple of world cups ago... and they bombed.

I believe there's also a recent-ish trend (20 years maybe) to not 'be negative' (as some see it). No criticism allowed. Simply saying/believing it makes it so. I think it's a Disneyfication - sod the ability, just to believe is enough. Now clearly there's a balance to be struck. You need belief but a bit of talent and ability doesn't go amiss either.

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Re: Self-delusion in sport
« Reply #9 on: 05 October, 2015, 08:53:55 am »
It doesn't address the broader point but I do think it in the nature of some press (of many/all nations?) to 'big up' their nations' chances. The feel good factor or somesuch. France did it with their football team a couple of world cups ago... and they bombed.

I believe there's also a recent-ish trend (20 years maybe) to not 'be negative' (as some see it). No criticism allowed. Simply saying/believing it makes it so. I think it's a Disneyfication - sod the ability, just to believe is enough. Now clearly there's a balance to be struck. You need belief but a bit of talent and ability doesn't go amiss either.
I'd agree with most of that.

But let's be clear - the nonsense around the England football team is an anomaly. They have been 2nd-tier for years (not rubbish, but very unlikely to win anything). Maybe it's because football is THE sport for many in the UK? Certainly the case in terms of column-inches, week-in, week-out. It may be the only sport that every schoolkid is made to play.

In other sports the media get it roughly right, provided you allow them a little leeway for patriotism/marketing/whatever.

(Henman was a top-10 player for several years as I recall - worse players have won Grand Slams, even Wimbledon. )
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LEE

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Re: Self-delusion in sport
« Reply #10 on: 05 October, 2015, 09:09:04 am »
Watching the England Rugby team felt very much like watching the football team.

Lots of huffing and puffing but getting most of the basics wrongs. Very few players with any "flair" (Mike Brown a clear exception).

I don't think the Aussies did all that much apart from get the basics right.  The ball was passed quickly to hand, the ball was presented cleanly at the tackle and the scrum worked well.

England were sloppy at all three.  Many passes were behind the player or too high to take at full speed.  The ball was like a hot potato at the tackle and our scrum fell to pieces.

I don't remember exactly but I think there were 5 penalties from scrums and even more turn-overs at the tackle. A RU game is very short so you don't get many chances.  Wasting them is suicide.  Add to that poor passing, which slows down any break and your fate is sealed.

In football the problems are almost identical.  By comparison with many other nations our players aren't as comfortable with the football, we lack flair and we hand over possession too easily.  We do give it lots of effort though.

I think it's seen as "a bit gay" to show flair instead of hard toil.

Note. I think it's time to take a look at the scrum and goal-kicking.  They waste so much playing time and, in my opinion, the scrum procedure will forever prevent the game from becoming truly popular.  Have a line-out instead and allow 30 seconds for it to be taken.
Same for the goal-kick.  Get the feck on with it.
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Wowbagger

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Re: Self-delusion in sport
« Reply #11 on: 05 October, 2015, 09:17:53 am »
I have read a few older articles that I missed first time. Mike Cleary in the Telegraph gives a clear warning of England's inadequacies after the Fiji match, including the expression "Wales and Australia will sleep easy".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/rugby-world-cup/11875706/England-35-Fiji-11-Rugby-World-Cup-match-report-Late-Billy-Vunipola-try-ensures-bonus-point-win.html
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Re: Self-delusion in sport
« Reply #12 on: 05 October, 2015, 09:19:22 am »
Note. I think it's time to take a look at the scrum and goal-kicking.  They waste so much playing time and, in my opinion, the scrum procedure will forever prevent the game from becoming truly popular.  Have a line-out instead and allow 30 seconds for it to be taken.

You want a faster game with no or fewer scrums ? I think someone got there before you its called Rugby League :)
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Wowbagger

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Re: Self-delusion in sport
« Reply #13 on: 05 October, 2015, 09:24:33 am »
But there is something wrong with rugby league! It has had massive national television coverage ove many years but is only played in one region.

I like scrums in principle. It is the problems that referees have had applying laws attepting to making them safe that has led to difficulties. I suspect that the risk of injury has increased as a result of player bulk, which we have discussed at length.
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Re: Self-delusion in sport
« Reply #14 on: 05 October, 2015, 09:31:33 am »
But there is something wrong with rugby league! It has had massive national television coverage ove many years but is only played in one region.

Not true. Its most popular in Yorkshire and Lancashire but there are clubs all over the UK (and abroad and the most successful clubs are northern. By the same token Union is played more in the South and West. Schools almost exclusively choosing Union doesn't help either. I like both. Personally I liked playing League more but like watching Union more.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

LEE

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Re: Self-delusion in sport
« Reply #15 on: 05 October, 2015, 10:02:47 am »
Note. I think it's time to take a look at the scrum and goal-kicking.  They waste so much playing time and, in my opinion, the scrum procedure will forever prevent the game from becoming truly popular.  Have a line-out instead and allow 30 seconds for it to be taken.

You want a faster game

FTFY.

I think it would benefit from fewer long breaks in play.

I remember in my yoof scrums being relatively exciting.  They would push back and forth, sometimes a team would be driven back over the line to concede a try.

What do we see now?  They are just a drawn out way of trying to avoid a technical infringement and conceding a penalty (or cunningly trying to trick your opponent into a technical infringement).  They typically collapse on the spot. 

I think all of the scrums on Saturday needed an explanation from a former player to make sense of what happened: "You can just see there, in ultra-slo-mo, that the loose-head prop lost his binding and his hips were no longer parallel to the Moon's trajectory .......blah ..blah"
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Re: Self-delusion in sport
« Reply #16 on: 05 October, 2015, 11:19:20 am »
As someone who grew up in Lancashire and played Proper Rugby at (a scummy Northern) school, I have no idea what's going on when watching a scrum.  I often have to ask my wife, who grew up in the South West and who's dad played Posh Rugby when he was young.  Quite often she doesn't know either!

I had a quick look who has won the Proper Rugby World Cup the most: Australia by a long margin, England second and then New Zealand.  Only Australia and New Zealand have won it since 1977, with New Zealand winning it once!

To add to the OP: most of the press is slowly realising that the England football team is 2nd tier.  Last year's World Cup had very little of the usual hyped up build build up.  Just as well, as we finished bottom of the group - but Italy also failed to qualify for the last 16!
So, the next Rugby World Cup might have less of the hype.  Rugby has the 6 Nations, though, which allows the hype to build for 4 years before the World Cup.

Re: Self-delusion in sport
« Reply #17 on: 05 October, 2015, 12:34:03 pm »
Only Australia and New Zealand have won it since 1977, with New Zealand winning it once!

Actually the first RWC was in 1987 and the All Blacks won it then and in 2011, I believe.

In the days of wall-to-wall TV sport, it seems to be in the interests of all media to hype local abilities to hysterical levels.  Sadly, this may also prevalent in road cycling, witness the pressure on Cavendish in the 2014 TdF.

NZ also has the home players only policy.  Players like Richie McCaw have chosen to play for the ABs over the filthy lucre.  Professional sports wages in NZ are a fraction of those in France and the UK.

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Re: Self-delusion in sport
« Reply #18 on: 05 October, 2015, 12:48:12 pm »
I think people tend to underestimate how much pure luck is involved in a game of sportsball.  Obviously the teams' ability and tactics have a huge influence, but it's a chaotic system and if you got them to play again it wouldn't have the same outcome.

But like cyclists obsessing about weight and ignoring weather, we tend to focus on what we can control.

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Re: Self-delusion in sport
« Reply #19 on: 05 October, 2015, 01:09:43 pm »
Only Australia and New Zealand have won it since 1977, with New Zealand winning it once!

Actually the first RWC was in 1987 and the All Blacks won it then and in 2011, I believe.


That was the first Rugby Union world cup.  RL has had one in one form or another since the 1950s.

Note. I think it's time to take a look at the scrum and goal-kicking.  They waste so much playing time and, in my opinion, the scrum procedure will forever prevent the game from becoming truly popular.  Have a line-out instead and allow 30 seconds for it to be taken.
Same for the goal-kick.  Get the feck on with it.
Christ there are so many little OCD rituals now, it's like watching televised Zen meditation.

This.  I caught a bit of Ireland - Italy, in which it took Jonny Sexton about ninety seconds to kick a goal which I think even I would have been unlikely to miss.
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Wowbagger

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Re: Self-delusion in sport
« Reply #20 on: 05 October, 2015, 01:26:10 pm »
I agree with Kim about luck, although I would extend it a long way beyond sportsball.

I was once on a course run by a Yorkshirewoman who lost no time in telling us that she helped in Linford Christie's coaching programme. This would have been in the early 1990s, I think. Her specialism was time management and she argued, reasonably, that by good time management an individual could make him/herself stand out from the rest and make themselves more promotable/more marriageable/more likely to win an olympic medal.

At the time I was heavily involved in the training of some of the best young chess players in England. Whereas I agreed with her that you could prepare for many eventualities, I pointed out that at the end a good deal came down to pure luck. She disagreed strongly about luck as an element and claimed that you could pretty well eliminate it with proper preparation. I said that you can take your competitors so far, but there are unpredictable elements that are invariably beyond anyone's control. They are predictable in that you know that such stuff happens, but not when it happens. When it comes down to it, you probably know in advance who the top 6 are, but any one of them might be the overall winner. As it happened, I think in pretty much his next race, Christie pulled a muscle in the first 20 metres and didn't qualify for whatever event it was. You know that top athletes are always liable to injury, but you have no idea when it's going to strike. That is, surely, pure luck.

I used to (and still do, TBH) concentrate on psychological stuff. In individual events, everyone has a perception of where they stand compared to their competitors. It is very important not to be frightened by them. If one of my players was paired against someone they thought was better than them, I used to ask them what they thought was a realistic score if they played that individual 10 times. Whatever their assessment (it was usually 8 - 2 or 7 - 3) I would agree with them, no matter what I really thought. I said that their job in this game was to try to make sure that this was one of the 2 or 3 rather than one of the 7 or 8. That way, you pretty well take all pressure off them and allowed them to concentrate on looking for weaknesses in their opponent's position. Pressure is created by the fear that others' expectations are higher than your own. Of course, team sports are much more complicated because players rely on each other far more.

I recall listening to an interview of Phil Bennett when he was in the Welsh side - I think he was captain at the time. Expectation and pressure was discussed and he said he took great assurance from looking around the dressing room at his team mates and one by one he would assess them: "He's the best in the world in his position, so is he, so is he, so is he..." That must make for a very confident team - they know they can rely on their colleagues. His 1977 pre-match team talk was legendary:

Quote
Look what these bastards have done to Wales. They've taken our coal, our water, our steel. They buy our homes and live in them for a fortnight every year. What have they given us? Absolutely nothing. We've been exploited, raped, controlled and punished by the English – and that's who you are playing this afternoon.

Wales won 14 - 9 and it placed Wales 2nd and England 3rd in that year's championship.
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Re: Self-delusion in sport
« Reply #21 on: 05 October, 2015, 01:33:04 pm »
I think it was Gary Player who, when told that he was "lucky" retorted "Yes, and the more I practice the luckier I get".
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Wowbagger

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Re: Self-delusion in sport
« Reply #22 on: 05 October, 2015, 02:57:40 pm »
I thought that was Lee Trevino.

http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/07/14/luck/ doesn't exactly confirm that it was his originally, but that page says he used a version.

Quote
In 1969 at the World Cup golf matches in Rome, Italy, Lee Trevino is quoted using a version of the expression [LTWG]:

Lee Trevino hit a magical iron shot, one that appeared to curve around a tree trunk, duck under branches, soar over a bunker and bite a few feet from the pin. “Signor Trevino,” called a Roman from the gallery, “are you always that lucky?” “Signor,” replied the U.S. Open champion, “the more I practice, the luckier I get.”
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Re: Self-delusion in sport
« Reply #23 on: 05 October, 2015, 03:22:33 pm »
I think it's extremely British to take one result and extrapolate an entire false history from it!

The England team had a poor game. It was not 'yet another in a long run of poor games', and in terms of games against Australia, the result was against the run of form. England is not the best side in the world of Rugby Union right now, but it's in the top five and often plays to a standard which would worry any of the other top teams. In this particular game, the side (including the coaching staff) deluded itself in the first half that things were going OK and that they didn't need to change much. Why that was I can only speculate, but I suspect that the game plan was too woolly to be assessed against the actual run of play, and too up its own arse to see it for what it really was - a failure.

Prior to this game, there was every reason to believe and expect that England would graduate from the pool and make (probably) the semi-finals. It was optimistic to expect them to make the final, but it wouldn't have been that much of a surprise to any of the other nations. The surprise was their failure, not the media expectations of moderate success.

As for Rugby League, it's a great game but it's missed the professional boat in UK. Its heyday here was in the early '90s, when it was on the brink of becoming a far bigger sport in the public eye. For whatever reason, it lost its way (probably by buying in its talent both on and off the field, and forgetting to develop the home-grown seeds. Beware, both first-tier soccer and Rugby Union!). Now, there are too many sports competing for coverage and funding and Rugby League doesn't offer either its viewers, its sponsors, or its participants enough to break out from where it is, which is roughly equivalent to Div 3 soccer.

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Re: Self-delusion in sport
« Reply #24 on: 05 October, 2015, 07:52:48 pm »
What the England teams are lacking is a really good motivational song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tiSww7FJAE