Author Topic: Solid wall buildings part elebenty - alternatives to lath and plaster (Read 48665 times)

Mrs Pingu · « **Reply #50 on:** 27 March, 2016, 09:51:50 pm »

No, I think you might be right with the abomination https://www.lime.org.uk/products/boards-and-backgrounds/buildingwood-wool-board/celenit-buildingwood-wool-boards/
Why? Because it contains cement?

Aunt Maud · « **Reply #51 on:** 27 March, 2016, 10:05:04 pm »

I'm currently demolishing some of that at the moment. It's indestructible, but I don't like the cement and I don't like the texture of it. How it works with lime, I wouldn't like to guess.

My recommendation would be to always stick with lath and plaster. It's durable, repairable and has proved itself to be a reliable product over centuries when painted with lime paints. Finding a plasterer who doesn't make a song and dance about it, might be problematic though.

I'm a product of The Weald and Downland Museums' MSc program, so I'm a bit old fashioned and highly sceptical of "wonder" products when it comes to building.

Mrs Pingu · « **Reply #52 on:** 27 March, 2016, 10:06:26 pm »

OK, why use lime plaster over clay then? Clay seems like it would be rather more user friendly.

Aunt Maud · « **Reply #53 on:** 27 March, 2016, 10:27:35 pm »

Finish I guess.

We have unburnt clay bricks inside and they are just lime washed, but it doesn't give a smooth finish and leaves a surface texture which dust hangs off.

Historically there's also probably an element of building material hierarchy involved, where a lime washed clay wall would have been regarded as lower quality than a plastered wall.

Mrs Pingu · « **Reply #54 on:** 27 March, 2016, 10:30:21 pm »

Maybe I should have said lime plaster rather than clay plaster. Clay plastering looks like fun!

Aunt Maud · « **Reply #55 on:** 27 March, 2016, 10:37:04 pm »

I lived in an adobe house in Australia which had mud floors coated in bees wax. If you put a cup of tea on the floor and left it to get cold, a lump of mud came away with the cup when you picked it up. It made Avril go mad, as she was always repairing the floor.

Mrs Pingu · « **Reply #56 on:** 27 March, 2016, 11:03:05 pm »

Aunt Maud · « **Reply #57 on:** 28 March, 2016, 07:09:56 am »

Traditional applied wall finishes in our region (The UK and Northern Europe) were lime wash or lime plaster over wattle/lath, wattle and daub (clay/cow turds/lime mix) or brick/unfired clay blocks and stone or timber panels.

Clay plaster technology looks like it's been imported from places like Sunny Southern Europe, Asia or Africa by the green building types. I think you'd struggle to find a historic building with an ancient and original trowel applied clay only plaster finish in the UK.

A lot of traditional building conservation or restoration involves research into and repair of the materials and finished that were used when the building was first constructed.

Except Oak framing, which for some reason has been singled out by the academics for extra special treatment, notably SPABs' insistence that if you're going to replace a bit of timber, it needs to be new and cut to the original size and not the weathered size, so that they can see the new from the old. Which makes it all end up looking like a horrid dogs dinner.

Ecological building and traditional building conservation are two different things, although they use some of the same materials a lot of the time.

TimC · « **Reply #58 on:** 28 March, 2016, 09:44:32 am »

I've recently left my home of 8 years, which was a C14 cottage with much wattle & daub panel infills, and many which had been replaced by lath & plaster panels. I can confirm that L&P is easy to do, and can give a very good finish. W&D is great fun to do, but a smooth finish is almost impossible - and kind of misses the point! But for what I assume is a Victorian building, L&P is both appropriate and straightforward.

Mrs Pingu · « **Reply #59 on:** 28 March, 2016, 08:08:59 pm »

You did it yourself? Lime seems like it would be a right PITA.

Aunt Maud · « **Reply #60 on:** 29 March, 2016, 09:11:31 am »

It's one of the easiest and probably the most versatile building material I've ever used.

There's plenty of myth and loads of baloney written about lime and it's best to ignore most of it.

Follow a few very simple rules and your away.

Mrs Pingu · « **Reply #61 on:** 29 March, 2016, 05:25:42 pm »

Haha, remember you're speaking to a complete DIY inept here. I'm good at demolishing stuff though

TimC · « **Reply #62 on:** 30 March, 2016, 06:31:34 pm »

Quote from: Mrs Pingu on 28 March, 2016, 08:08:59 pm

You did it yourself? Lime seems like it would be a right PITA.

Yes, it's fairly easy. I got the materials via one of the suppliers affiliated to the Listed Building Owners club, which is a fabulous repository of knowledge and experience. They also provided information about the techniques I needed.

Mrs Pingu · « **Reply #63 on:** 30 March, 2016, 07:49:46 pm »

Well the builder seemed to be surprised but pleased to see original wall behind the shitty alcove.
His chaps are coming back on Monday to start excavating.

Aunt Maud · « **Reply #64 on:** 31 March, 2016, 04:57:53 pm »

I'm going to have to ask........What's elebenty?

spesh · « **Reply #65 on:** 31 March, 2016, 05:23:39 pm »

Quote from: Aunt Maud on 31 March, 2016, 04:57:53 pm

I'm going to have to ask........What's elebenty?

What you get when you want to type "eleventy", and hit the wrong key.

Mrs Pingu · « **Reply #66 on:** 31 March, 2016, 07:47:19 pm »

Lolcat speak

Aunt Maud · « **Reply #67 on:** 01 April, 2016, 07:27:57 pm »

I took my own advice and paid a visit to http://www.cornelissen.com for some Sienna pigment. If you're ever in town, it's worth a visit just to ogle the wonderful interior.

Mrs Pingu · « **Reply #68 on:** 04 April, 2016, 05:59:52 pm »

No obvious damp bits here

20160404_171505 by The Pingus, on Flickr

Or here

20160404_171441 by The Pingus, on Flickr

There was a lot of debris up here

IMG_6507_01 by The Pingus, on Flickr

And finally some wet, rotten wood (which had been hiding behind some unexpected gypsum)

20160404_171550 by The Pingus, on Flickr

Aunt Maud · « **Reply #69 on:** 05 April, 2016, 08:19:37 am »

Good innit, cavity walling for damp that still works.

It's usual that such walls were vented at the top and bottom to help dry out the stone wall, so you could see if the wall is/was open at the top, in the loft, and have a look around the skirting to see if there were originally any vents built in.

The bead around the recess looks original too, "nice". It's going to look good when it's done.

His work's tidy too.

The lath looks like it's been split apart from wide sawn strips like a concertina <very interesting>. If you find an old lath nail that's in good condition, could you send a photo of it, and I'll send it over to a good friend, who's pretty much the world authority on rusty nails.

It's like time travel without leaving home.

Aunt Maud · « **Reply #70 on:** 05 April, 2016, 09:24:19 am »

Accordion lath, that's what it's called.

Mrs Pingu · « **Reply #71 on:** 05 April, 2016, 06:22:36 pm »

Do you mean a vent in the plaster or in the stone? Haven't seen anything in the plaster (and it was all plasterboard in the loft above)

Quote from: Aunt Maud on 05 April, 2016, 08:19:37 am

The lath looks like it's been split apart from wide sawn strips like a concertina <very interesting>. If you find an old lath nail that's in good condition, could you send a photo of it, and I'll send it over to a good friend, who's pretty much the world authority on rusty nails.

It's like time travel without leaving home.

Yes, I was intrigued by the 'concertina' laths too. Though I notice that the lath on the RH cheek of the alcove is wider, more like 2-3 inch wide strips rather than proper thin lath.

It was only when I moved all the hi-fi equipment back into the other alcove last night that I noticed the plasterboard at the bottom there is all damp so they've to come back again and rip all that out. I guess when the stove has been fitted they will need to install some new lath round the fireplace opening as I don't think there's any there at the mo.

Will get the decent camera out and take photos of some nails when I've stopped being a cat bed

TimC · « **Reply #72 on:** 05 April, 2016, 06:30:55 pm »

Quote from: Aunt Maud on 05 April, 2016, 09:24:19 am

Accordion lath, that's what it's called.

I was looking at - and enjoying - that lath work. It's very good - way better than mine! Some good stuff there.

Aunt Maud · « **Reply #73 on:** 05 April, 2016, 06:51:19 pm »

It's really nice to see lath like that, very tidy.

The internal stud and plaster wall was just left open at the top, where it meets the ceiling and a mesh put in the skirting so that air can circulate and vent the moist air into the loft /roof void.

Normally Victorian slated roofs had Sarking boards, which are Pine/Deal boards nailed to the rafters and running diagonally up the roof and covered the whole roof. These gave lateral stability to all the rafters, kept the dust and snow out and gave the slater something to nail the slates onto.

And to keep things dry, there would have been air flowing through the roof space, just like air bricks in the walls under a suspended timber floor at ground level, which help keep the damp away.

Mrs Pingu · « **Reply #74 on:** 05 April, 2016, 07:36:18 pm »

Well having ripped the gypsum out of the gable end of the attic there's a bit more circulation than there was. Our roof is as you describe, except that plasterboard has been put over the underside of the rafters some of the way down. Behind the cupboards though it's all open so there's not full circulation but there is some, and probably enough judging by the breeze you can feel up there when it's windy.
There's no mesh in the skirting, but we're first floor so I don't know if there was anything downstairs.