the tedium of making gps files that work

[vorsprung]

On my recent experience of a Wessex ride (the Hardboiled) I used the organisers GPX file.  I have a recent, fairly ok GPS device so I figured if it loaded and appeared to be working it should be ok

I was wrong.  It was a "route" and not a "track" and although it was split into separate files  for each stage of the ride, each file had more than 249 waypoints, which the eTrex 20 is unable to cope with.  After I got to the 249th point each time a message was displayed and then it stopped showing the line that was the route.  The "instruction" points like "turn left" however continued to show, which got me out of trouble a couple of times- so it wasn't entirely useless after this.

I am hoping to do the Cheddar Gorge as a perm this weekend (Nik if you are reading this, the entry is in the post..) and the gpx file for that is a "track" so I am hoping that will be ok.  The Brevet Cymru 400 otoh is a "route" with thousands of points.  I am currently blow torching the file to convert the "route" into a "track"

This is not a knock at hard working organisers.  They have supplied a file in some format that "works for them".  It's a knock at bloody mr Garmin and the mental way that there are lots of formats for files and they break in random ways. You can take the risk of  being without a route to follow at 4 in the morning.  Or you spend lunchhour trying to convert the file into something that actually works

[Oscar's dad]

I don't think there is an easy answer to your question. Which is why I always re-plot routes or tracks using my own tried and tested process. Yes, this can sometimes take several hours but at least it (hopefully) prevent me being clueless and routeless at 4am. The other advantage is that I can familiarise myself with the route.

[Euan Uzami]

The one that gets me is if you have multiple tracks with similar names, e.g.
"A track with a long name leg 1"
"A track with a long name leg 2"
"A track with a long name leg 3"

then the garmin truncates the name to, say,
"A track with a long"

and they all have the same name and you will only have access to one of them.

Although it's a 10 second job to convert a route into a track, just open it up in notepad or similar and do a find and replace.
replace "<rte" with "<trk" (also replaces "<rtept" with "<trkpt" in the process)
and then also
replace "</rte" with "</trk" (also replaces "</rtept" with "</trkpt" in the process.

[contango]

What I always do is read the routesheet and feed it into something like bikeroutetoaster so I end up with a track of the precise route that follows the roads. I don't really want to be guessing which way to go based on straight lines between turnings, and it really isn't all that hard to do once you've done a couple.

Even if the organiser sends out a GPX file containing a track log I verify it, as it's always possible the org made a mistake creating it. Had that happen once, it was mildly irritating along the way but didn't involve too much of a detour in the end.

[mcshroom]

I tend to just load in bikehike, shrink to required number of points, and then download as gpx track. This allows me to see an elevation profile and the route on a map at the same time.

I agree that Garmins are a pain with how they handle gpx files though.

[Oaky]

it (hopefully) prevent me being clueless and routeless at 4am.

I shall refrain from commenting and especially won't mention Great Yarmouth.

[Manotea]

Sorry guys, no use blaming the tools.

The problem is that there are a range of GPS units in use, a range of mapping products in use, and everybody has their own preferences on how to use them, and a range of expertise in how to use them from novice to expert.

The solution is to agree a standard basic "lowest common denominator" approach to provisioning gps materials and then detail  approaches to develop tracks/routes/courses gpx/gbd/fit/fat file formats as might be required to meet individual preferances/requirements.

There does seem a need for this. Thing is, if the Org - despite their best efforts - gets it 'wrong'  then each rider pays the price either through rework or simply getting lost. The question is, how to bell the cat....

FWIW my approach is to ship a track with <500 points (for compatibility with oldskool eTrex) and flagged waypoints for controls. That works fine up to 2~300km.

After that the simplest approach might be to segment the track and either ship multiple gpx files each with one track or a single gpx file with multiple tracks. This then assume the riders load the track files/tracks correctly. This is straightforward for Garmin Mapsource/eTrex users but I fear is not as simple as it might seem using newer map/gps products.

[Oscar's dad]

it (hopefully) prevent me being clueless and routeless at 4am.

I shall refrain from commenting and especially won't mention Great Yarmouth.

Git.

[BlackSheep]

...........................that will be ok.  The Brevet Cymru 400 otoh is a "route" with thousands of points.  I am currently blow torching the file to convert the "route" into a "track"

Check your e-mails Jamie, you would find that there was a gpx, tcx and kml files sent to you,

So there's no need to use the gpx file for your tcx requirements.

Sure they've got lots of points, but that's because there are ever-increasing number of units able to an ever-increasing number of points. And after canvasing riders of their preferences - gpx was the prefered format.

Please note these has been generated for profiling purposes. And as such probably has too many track points for most GPS units, it is a relatively simple task to reduce this to a number suitable for your unit.

First of all, save the relevant gpx or tcx file  to your hard drive. You then need to go to (say) the Bikehike website (other sites may also offer this service). And once on the create route page, upload the file. Once uploaded, click on the options box, and enter the number of points you wish to reduce to. Then click reduce, you can then down load this file to your hard drive and then to your GPS, I don't think it's possible to download direct to your GPS from the web site.

As you stated, the devisive element is Mr Garmin - in the name of progress. There's another reason for having lots of points, butit's more for the organisers benfit. It does berve as a good cross reference for calculating spot distances.

At all times, the toys have stayed in the prampram 

[vorsprung]

...........................that will be ok.  The Brevet Cymru 400 otoh is a "route" with thousands of points.  I am currently blow torching the file to convert the "route" into a "track"

Check your e-mails Jamie, you would find that there was a gpx, tcx and kml files sent to you,

So there's no need to use the gpx file for your tcx requirements.

Sure they've got lots of points, but that's because there are ever-increasing number of units able to an ever-increasing number of points. And after canvasing riders of their preferences - gpx was the prefered format.

That's mr garmin at it again.  On the unit I have it records tracks as "gpx" and routes are also "gpx".  I wasn't sure if the "tcx" file would even load!
Anyway, the gpx is now converted to a track, it loads and displays properly, I checked it.

[Ningishzidda]

Sorry guys, no use blaming the tools.

The problem is that there are a range of GPS units in use, a range of mapping products in use, and everybody has their own preferences on how to use them, and a range of expertise in how to use them from novice to expert.

The solution is to agree a standard basic "lowest common denominator" approach to provisioning gps materials and then detail  approaches to develop tracks/routes/courses gpx/gbd/fit/fat file formats as might be required to meet individual preferances/requirements.

There does seem a need for this. Thing is, if the Org - despite their best efforts - gets it 'wrong'  then each rider pays the price either through rework or simply getting lost. The question is, how to bell the cat....

FWIW my approach is to ship a track with <500 points (for compatibility with oldskool eTrex) and flagged waypoints for controls. That works fine up to 2~300km.

After that the simplest approach might be to segment the track and either ship multiple gpx files each with one track or a single gpx file with multiple tracks. This then assume the riders load the track files/tracks correctly. This is straightforward for Garmin Mapsource/eTrex users but I fear is not as simple as it might seem using newer map/gps products.

Agree with this.

Global Positioning eXchange files are the universal standard for electronically saving co-ordinate details of a logged journey. They may have THOUSANDS of points.

Whichever GPS device is used, its owner/user MUST learn how to translate a GPX to the device's manufacturer's system, with due consideration of the device's limitations.

On Garmin ?? a TCX. On TomTom, an ITN

On my Routesheet, I state the OS Grid refs of controls and INFOs. The routesheet is a suggested 'safe' route but the participants are free to create a GPX, TCX or ITN of any route to complete the event.

[vorsprung]

Sorry guys, no use blaming the tools.
..the simplest approach might be to segment the track and either ship multiple gpx files each with one track or a single gpx file with multiple tracks. This then assume the riders load the track files/tracks correctly. This is straightforward for Garmin Mapsource/eTrex users but I fear is not as simple as it might seem using newer map/gps products.

Agree with this.
..
Whichever GPS device is used, its owner/user MUST learn how to translate a GPX to the device's manufacturer's system, with due consideration of the device's limitations.

So you are both agreeing that if you rely on GPS for navigation, it's a choice of spending a lunchhour fixing it or risk getting lost at an awkward moment

Just goes to show, routesheets are best

[Ningishzidda]

Sorry guys, no use blaming the tools.
..the simplest approach might be to segment the track and either ship multiple gpx files each with one track or a single gpx file with multiple tracks. This then assume the riders load the track files/tracks correctly. This is straightforward for Garmin Mapsource/eTrex users but I fear is not as simple as it might seem using newer map/gps products.

Agree with this.
..
Whichever GPS device is used, its owner/user MUST learn how to translate a GPX to the device's manufacturer's system, with due consideration of the device's limitations.

So you are both agreeing that if you rely on GPS for navigation, it's a choice of spending a lunchhour fixing it or risk getting lost at an awkward moment

Just goes to show, routesheets are best

The word 'fixing' applies to people who don't know what they are doing.
Those who DO know what they are doing, "FINESSE" a route on their GPS units.... 

[vorsprung]

The word 'fixing' applies to people who don't know what they are doing.
Those who DO know what they are doing, "FINESSE" a route on their GPS units.... 

Call it what you like, it still takes up my valuable time

[Ningishzidda]

Notes to all.

Write a process sheet of getting a GPX to a usable file on YOUR device.
Write an FMEA of the process.

[Euan Uzami]

So you are both agreeing that if you rely on GPS for navigation, it's a choice of spending a lunchhour fixing it or risk getting lost at an awkward moment

Just goes to show, routesheets are best

still not sure why it takes a whole lunch hour.

Anyhow, if the worst comes to the worst and the track just stops you can simply tell it to take you the shortest route to the next control by on-road navigation. You never know it might actually take you a quicker route.   

[Hot Flatus]

Wow. I've never had any issues with this. Even in the days of a 2003 Extrex with a serial cable and Memory Map.

As has been said twice up thread, load whatever you have into bikehike and resave in the format of your choice clicking the options to reduce waypoints. It takes one minute....maybe you have a one minute lunch break

[Ningishzidda]

So you are both agreeing that if you rely on GPS for navigation, it's a choice of spending a lunchhour fixing it or risk getting lost at an awkward moment

Just goes to show, routesheets are best

still not sure why it takes a whole lunch hour.

Anyhow, if the worst comes to the worst and the track just stops you can simply tell it to take you the shortest route to the next control by on-road navigation. You never know it might actually take you a quicker route.   

When navigating with a Route, the unit will probably be in 'Delivery van'. Asking for an ad-hoc route to the next control might get you onto the M42. Be careful and visually check the proposed route. 

[nuttycyclist]

Sorry guys, no use blaming the tools.
..the simplest approach might be to segment the track and either ship multiple gpx files each with one track or a single gpx file with multiple tracks. This then assume the riders load the track files/tracks correctly. This is straightforward for Garmin Mapsource/eTrex users but I fear is not as simple as it might seem using newer map/gps products.

Agree with this.
..
Whichever GPS device is used, its owner/user MUST learn how to translate a GPX to the device's manufacturer's system, with due consideration of the device's limitations.

So you are both agreeing that if you rely on GPS for navigation, it's a choice of spending a lunchhour fixing it or risk getting lost at an awkward moment

Just goes to show, routesheets are best

I found the success to any ride is preparation.    I have been on many rides where the routesheet has errors.   I have been on personal fun rides where the GPS has thrown a wobbly and re-calculated to take me back to last night's hotel.  I have been on personal rides where I have found my route choice was bad, I'm on a dual carriageway, and need to re-route on the fly.

I always draw a routesheet onto a photocopied map.   At 03:00 in the morning when riders are converging towards a crossroads from all 4 legs... it's amazingly quick to get back on track by pulling a map out of the bar bag.

If I'm given a GPX I always load it up and go through it to ensure it's not corrupted.


There is no substitute for preparation and planning.

[vorsprung]

If I'm given a GPX I always load it up and go through it to ensure it's not corrupted.

In the case of the Hardboiled I did this.  And it was fine for the first 249 points.  Other than riding the route and seeing what happens I don't see what else I could have done to test this.  This limit isn't documented in the manual for the device that I have

There is no substitute for preparation and planning.

Indeed, but it seems in the case of GPS devices the only way to find out what preparation is actually required is to have a situation where it goes wrong and to work out why.

Looks like to be actually able to rely on a GPS you have to be some kind of expert in several different file formats and know all the settings and limitations on your particular device inside out as well as having a spare set of batteries.

[nuttycyclist]

If I'm given a GPX I always load it up and go through it to ensure it's not corrupted.

In the case of the Hardboiled I did this.  And it was fine for the first 249 points.  Other than riding the route and seeing what happens I don't see what else I could have done to test this.  This limit isn't documented in the manual for the device that I have

I got caught out once.   Fortunately I had a streaming cold so was in the passenger seat of a car route-checking as opposed to cycling it.        In hindsight all I needed to do was to have zoomed out and realised the route showed only halfway on the screen not the full loop....

[Greenbank]

Looks like to be actually able to rely on a GPS you have to be some kind of expert in several different file formats and know all the settings and limitations on your particular device inside out as well as having a spare set of batteries.

Yep, that's pretty much how I do it.

[Ningishzidda]

Frank hasn't said anything yet. He's probably still laughing.

[Euan Uzami]

When navigating with a Route, the unit will probably be in 'Delivery van'. Asking for an ad-hoc route to the next control might get you onto the M42. Be careful and visually check the proposed route. 

It wouldn't on mine because I set the OSM 'Toll' flag on all motorways before compiling the image so I can set the unit to 'avoid tolls' and it will never try to take me down a motorway.

[Ningishzidda]

When navigating with a Route, the unit will probably be in 'Delivery van'. Asking for an ad-hoc route to the next control might get you onto the M42. Be careful and visually check the proposed route. 

It wouldn't on mine because I set the OSM 'Toll' flag on all motorways before compiling the image so I can set the unit to 'avoid tolls' and it will never try to take me down a motorway.

No worries. 

When I configure my unit to 'Always calculate routes for bicycle', it avoids motorways, full stop.