Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?

[SteveC]

I think we seriously underestimate how much energy people used to burn--how hard life actually was.
Some research has been done¹, which shows how much food and drink a farm labourer in the 17th century got as part of his wages.  Comes out at around 4500 Calories per day.  Now it is very likely that he didn't eat all of this himself, but shared some with his family (who probably also got food from their employer as well), but it's still going to be a lot.  Working physically all day, every day, and living in accommodation with just about no heating, uses a lot of energy.  We have it so easy these days.

1) Not fully published yet, I've heard it though personal communication from one of the people involved in helping with the work)

[Jules]

I'm racking my brains here (and it hurts!) but isn't there some 'xyz paradox theory' that addresses the question 'why are' the Chinese/Italians not fat when they eat so much rice/pasta'?

<rash generalisation - contains no science> Traditionally Italians eat a small breakfast with Cappuccino coffee (never consumed after 11am - after which they drink expresso) and a small roll or pastry. Pasta with a more or less rich sauce then Meat or fish with one vegetable for lunch with usually fruit for desert. A lighter meal, often pizza, but rarely pasta, in the evenings.

With fewer people coming home for lunch they now often snack at lunchtime and eat big meals in the evening (like the UK) and are getting fatter.

It's a mistake to judge Italian dishes by the way they are consumed by foreigners.

</rgcns>

[geraldc]

Yeah. Except..Asian diets usually rely very heavily on white rice, one of the big no-no's in the Paleo diet, yet they have traditionally been slim?

The trouble is, is that the Asian diet is evolving, along with rice, we're eating more meat and fat, and now they think white rice is what's causing the boom in diabetes.

[crowriver]

This all sounds a bit like Atkins, or maybe a higher fat version of The Zone diet, which was big in the late 90s/early noughties (my wife is a fan).

I'm sticking to 5:2 for now and will see where it gets me.

[hubner]

Yeah. Except..Asian diets usually rely very heavily on white rice, one of the big no-no's in the Paleo diet, yet they have traditionally been slim?

The trouble is, is that the Asian diet is evolving, along with rice, we're eating more meat and fat, and now they think white rice is what's causing the boom in diabetes.

"The Asian diet"? Perhaps you mean the southern Chinese diet, rather than the Indian, Central Asian, Mongolian, South East Asian etc diet.

You could say people everywhere, regardless of their diet, have been "traditionally" slim,. It's only in the last few generations that people in the west have got overweight. So for thousands of years, grain based diets have been fine but suddenly we're told actually grain based diets are the causes of obesity. It just happens that this is at the same as people move to a sedentary life style and being able to eat unlimited amounts of food. Also note the amount of low cost but rich energy dense foods (actually snacks) now available.

It's a "disease of affluence". Just look at the average person in developing countries with their grain and rice (carb) based diets, are they overweight?

[Bledlow]

You could say people everywhere, regardless of their diet, have been "traditionally" slim,. It's only in the last few generations that people in the west have got overweight. So for thousands of years, grain based diets have been fine but suddenly we're told actually grain based diets are the causes of obesity. It just happens that this is at the same as people move to a sedentary life style and being able to eat unlimited amounts of food. Also note the amount of low cost but rich energy dense foods (actually snacks) now available.

It's a "disease of affluence". Just look at the average person in developing countries with their grain and rice (carb) based diets, are they overweight?

Absolutely right. The equation carbohydrate rich diet=obesity does not add up.

[crowriver]

I think it is the way grains and starch are processed in modern food that is the problem. Processed sugar, white flour, refined fats, etc.

[hubner]

I think it is the way grains and starch are processed in modern food that is the problem. Processed sugar, white flour, refined fats, etc.

Or maybe it's what food you make from those ingredients.

Eg, white floor. You could use white flour and make it into pasta. Then add a tomato sauce, with a little meat for flavouring. Add a side dish of say vegetable/potato salad and you have a healthy, nutritious and filling meal.

Or you could take that white flour, add in equal amounts of butter, sugar and cream and turn it into a cake. The result is junk food; a rich, energy dense, nutritionally "empty" non filling snack that should be an occasional treat, but gets eaten as an everyday food.

[hellymedic]

I think we are too ready to blame one single factor of our choosing, rather than the multiple factors that cause an environment in which it is easy to gain fat.
Most of us are less active than our forebears.
It is easy to eat meat, which has been very costly in the past. Portion sizes have grown.
A combination of fat + sugar + refined starch is extremely calorific, easy to eat and cheap. Crispy Kreme??? CAEK??? Gulab jamun??? Kit-Kat??? Sweet & sour pork balls???
Our homes are warm.

A ketogenic diet will work for some;
Moving more whilst eating the same will work for others.
Avoiding most fried food may be effective as might eating less-processed food.

Concentrating on a single factor might help with weight loss but loses sight of the big picture.

[Chris S]

Second 200 audax done on keto today. We pushed a wee bit harder than last time - first 30k at 29kph in fact; and overall, 25kph moving average. We also rode it as 2x100 non-stop stints.

As previously, no hunger bonks and no lack of energy. We stopped half way for some low carb/high fat lunch, but TBH neither of us were particularly hungry. It's liberating not having that empty feeling when you're running low on carbs.

Interesting stuff!

[Ashaman42]

See that makes it tempting, the lack of bonkitude. But then you say it cuts the top end out a bit and frankly even my top end is slow so not sure I can lose any of it.

*Ponders*

[Chris S]

See that makes it tempting, the lack of bonkitude. But then you say it cuts the top end out a bit and frankly even my top end is slow so not sure I can lose any of it.

*Ponders*

The top end (such as it is - I'm no Power-lifter a la Andy Gates!) seems to be coming back now. I've been keeping up with push-ups, and have started some limited weights work at the gym. The hills seemed much less arduous today.

[L CC]

I'm not hungry in the same way. For me, it seems that fat is more filling.
It's worth the awkwardness not to be at the mercy of a seemingly unslakeable appetite.

[Glover Fan]

Second 200 audax done on keto today. We pushed a wee bit harder than last time - first 30k at 29kph in fact; and overall, 25kph moving average. We also rode it as 2x100 non-stop stints.

As previously, no hunger bonks and no lack of energy. We stopped half way for some low carb/high fat lunch, but TBH neither of us were particularly hungry. It's liberating not having that empty feeling when you're running low on carbs.

Interesting stuff!

Indeed, but I wonder if it is the lack of carbs or rather the reduction of eating episodes and/or portion sizes that are the reason for this?

I find when I consciously try to lose weight that I do not snack, whether that be on nuts, fruit, chocolate whatever. A massive consequence is that I am hungry less often and at meal times I fill up quicker.

It's great that you have found something that works well for you, but on a wider scale it could well be consequential.

[Chris S]

Indeed, but I wonder if it is the lack of carbs or rather the reduction of eating episodes and/or portion sizes that are the reason for this?

I find when I consciously try to lose weight that I do not snack, whether that be on nuts, fruit, chocolate whatever. A massive consequence is that I am hungry less often and at meal times I fill up quicker.

It's great that you have found something that works well for you, but on a wider scale it could well be consequential.

I don't think so. I still eat three/four times a day plus snacks, and I occasionally eat like a pig. I just eat different things, that's all that's changed.

[L CC]

Indeed, but I wonder if it is the lack of carbs or rather the reduction of eating episodes and/or portion sizes that are the reason for this?

I find when I consciously try to lose weight that I do not snack, whether that be on nuts, fruit, chocolate whatever. A massive consequence is that I am hungry less often and at meal times I fill up quicker.

Definitely not. You make out we've never tried to lose weight before. O how I wish that were true.
The crucial thing is not that I'm eating fewer calories- I'm not. I'm eating more calories than I was, when I was trying to eat low fat/high fibre/more wholegrain, and exercise away any excess food. I used to really look forward to audax days- as then I'd be 'allowed' to eat as much as I liked, because even my greed doesn't usually extend to 4000 calories a day. The rest of the time I would be consciously not eating  feeling hungry, eating about 2000 calories and exercising away about 800.
Diets don't work. All the research, on every kind of diet, shows that 5 years later the number of people who have kept the weight off is tiny. We lose weight, and we put it all back on. We put it all back on because the food is still there, and we're hungry. It's nice.
Eating this way seems, so far, to mean that I'm not as hungry. Riding for 8 hours hasn't made me hungry. Running doesn't make me hungry. Swimming doesn't make me hungry. I'm still going to have the same issues of eating when I'm bored, and comfort eating, but I don't seem to be fighting a constant battle against fluctuating blood sugar.
We've tried doing 'fasted audaxing' before and it was an unmitigated failure. No one likes getting the shakes, or tunnel vision, and that's what happens if you use all your stored glucose for fuel and don't replace it.

[andrew_s]

There was an interesting article in New Scientist in the 18th Aug issue hypothesizing that ketosis was the cause of spontaneous human combustion

http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/science-scope/spontaneous-combustion-might-be-real-and-pigs-might-help-us-figure-out-why-it-happens/13542
(annoying popups, but the NS link is subscribers only)

If anyone catches fire, let us know 

[Jakob]

Yeah. Except..Asian diets usually rely very heavily on white rice, one of the big no-no's in the Paleo diet, yet they have traditionally been slim?

The trouble is, is that the Asian diet is evolving, along with rice, we're eating more meat and fat, and now they think white rice is what's causing the boom in diabetes.

"The Asian diet"? Perhaps you mean the southern Chinese diet, rather than the Indian, Central Asian, Mongolian, South East Asian etc diet.

Sorry, I define 'Asian' the non-UK way. Oriental diet, if you like.

[Jakob]

Eg, white floor. You could use white flour and make it into pasta. Then add a tomato sauce, with a little meat for flavouring. Add a side dish of say vegetable/potato salad and you have a healthy, nutritious and filling meal.

Not according to the 'paleo' principle and I tend to agree. Too many carbs and not enough fat/protein.

The couple of times where I have succeeded in maintain the paleo diet, I may not have found a new fountain of energy, but there was a distinct lack of sugar spikes. About 3 weeks in, a colleage brought in birthday cake, I had a slice and 1 later I was almost asleep.
I get the same when I (occasionally) make pancakes for breakfast on the weekend: 1 hour of activity and I'm tired and hungry...If I have eggs & bacon, I can easily carry on without lunch if I have to.

The biggest problem is that if you want a quick snack and have nothing prepared, sugar/grain filled snacks are way easier to get hold of.

Good thread, though...I'm inspired to try again and will start from Tuesday.

[Chris S]

If anyone catches fire, let us know 

I'd better slap Hazchem and Inflammable stickers on my forehead 

[geraldc]

"The Asian diet"? Perhaps you mean the southern Chinese diet, rather than the Indian, Central Asian, Mongolian, South East Asian etc diet.

I just used the term that was being used on the thread, but it is being seen as a pan Asian problem, here in the UK type 2 diabetes is big in the South Asian/Indian subcontinent communities too, and in the US, diabetes is much larger in the Asian & Pacific islander communities.
http://aadi.joslin.org/content/diabetes-asians-asian-americans

[Andrew]

The biggest problem is that if you want a quick snack and have nothing prepared, sugar/grain filled snacks are way easier to get hold of.

Ain't that the truth! If I'm in need of something to eat on a long ride, a boulangerie is about the most likely place to be around & open.... bread and pastries!

[L CC]

Try the charcuterie instead? 

[hellymedic]

Keep some nuts in your bag!

[Julian]

I am a firm believer that Diets Don't Work - meaning diets as in, get your beach body here, 3-day detox, cabbage soup, instant slimmer stuff.  As far as I can tell, these are just a recipe to have your body's response to food totally screwed up and return to above your pre-diet weight, leaving you miserable, fatter than ever, and ripe for the next charlatan who wants to sell you a load of hokey.  The diet industry is huge (as it were) and it relies on people coming back again, and again, and again.   

Diets as in the older sense of the word - an eating regime, the way you choose to eat, e.g. eating a vegetarian diet / halal diet / an 'invalid diet' (anyone else learn about that at Guides?) and so on - I'm much more interested in.

From reading boabacca's posts, I seem to have a fairly similar metabolism: I stay more or less the same weight, which is above my 'ideal' regardless of calories in and out - so I generally haven't bothered.  If eating dust means I lose a measly 2 pounds and my sense of humour, I may as well eat bread and beer and enjoy life.  So I thought I'd give this a try, and it does seem to work.  I started on Monday so that's just under a week, and it went in the sort of order of Monday - fine, but hungry.  Tuesday, headaches (presumably sugar withdrawal).  Wednesday I felt dreadful in the morning and then much, much better, and normal service seems to have been resumed.

Report one week in:  I'm not permanently hungry which I did use to be.  I'm hoping it will improve my energy levels because getting up in the mornings has been a mission for years - I don't think it's just being lazy, and I wonder if it's connected to sugar levels.  Not feeling 'empty' in the same way means it's harder to tell when I'm getting hungry - I seem to go from fine to NEED FOOD NOW in about ten seconds.  A week without sugar has made sweet stuff taste sweeter.  It seems pretty easy to stick to because I've always preferred veg to fruit, and after years of indoctrination that fat = evil, high fat food is a 'treat' with every meal.  I've also noticed a difference brushing my teeth - a low sugar diet is definitely better for my teeth and gums (I have crappy gums, which bleed if I smile at sugar.)  Oh, and I've lost 4lbs this week. 

However, before I get too carried away with how great it is, I've also looked at what I would have eaten if I weren't trying this - and it's more calories, definitely (nb I'm not saying that's the same for everyone but it's certainly true for me.)  For example yesterday I had smoked salmon and scrambled eggs for breakfast.  I would usually have had toast with that, although I would not have had the raspberries and cream as well.  I skipped lunch because I was in a hurry and the only low carb food in the house needed cooking which I didn't have time for, so I had two mini babybel where I would usually have had a sandwich.  The afternoon I was at a workshop full of queer women which meant there was delicious cake of every type including ones with coffee buttercream which I would definitely have had at least one of, normally.  Someone else had brought Quality Street and I would usually have taken one.  In the evening we went out for a meal and I had calves liver and broccoli - but left the potatoes on my plate, whereas I would usually have eaten them. 

And, of course, no beer in the evening.  I've used the Livestrong calories counter to work out that yesterday although I ate more fat than usual and under 50g carbs, I would have eaten just over 2000 calories yesterday if I were eating carbs, whereas in fact I ate 1250.  So for me there is a calorie difference as well as the processing difference. 

I haven't tried doing any actual exercise with it yet   But I'm going to give it a try til Easter (coinciding with everyone else giving up sugar for Lent seems like a good time) and see what happens.  So far, and it's very early on, it's a cautious thumbs up.