Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?

[hellymedic]

You don't need a thread about insidious sugar; just assume any processed foodstuff with multiple ingredients will contain sugar.
Be pleasantly surprised if it doesn't...

[chrisbainbridge]

Hi ChrisS Thanks, I hadn't specifically noticed it but everything I eat is being added to MFP at the moment so it tots up the various nutrients an displays them. So yesterday was 1761 Kcal with 99g of protein, 55g of carbohydrate and 136 of fat.  Milky drink last thing at night stopped all problems overnight.  Still not found all this energy but it is exactly one week today.

I am pretty sure I am not T1D but a degree of insulin resistance my well be true.  I may get a ride today or probably tomorrow morning.

[chrisbainbridge]

ketones 0.8 this morning!

[ElyDave]

Looking good.

Phinney and Volek give an optimum level of about 1 - 3

[Chris S]

As ever with these things, amounts of ketones swilling about in your blood/wee/breath (more swirling with the last one, I guess) can mislead.

I remember a shot of Sami Inkinen testing his blood ketones during their row from San Francisco to Hawaii, and it was 0.1mmol. Was he ketogenic? Hell yes - that's how they fuelled their ride - he was just burning it as fast or faster than his body could produce it.

Ketones in breath show your body is making it, but not burning it - same with wee. Keto-breath and free ketones in your wee largely go away once you adapt to using ketones instead of blood sugar.

There is also a fly-wheel effect. I can start a bike ride on 1.0mmol and when I finish, the level might be much the same - but I bet a few hours later it'll be much higher (I've seen a ketone level higher than my blood sugar level a few hours after finishing an audax) because the body carries on making the stuff after you've stopped using so much, so it "overshoots" the required level. Then you just pee out the excess - it doesn't get reabsorbed.

[ElyDave]

absolutely, I tend to tes BG pre and ost exercise, and at intervals during prolonged exercise - don't want a mid-ride or run hypo - but ketones I've generally only tested in steady state i.e. before exercise rather than during or after.

I'm also testing blood ketone directly with some soon to expire test strips, I'll stop doing so as regularly when I think I'm well established.

[ChillyPanda]

I wonder if a strict keto diet is compatible with endurance-type activities, such as audax, in the longer term. If an extremely fit athlete achieves body mass that is very lean and predominantly muscle -  with negligible body fat - then where does the fat come from that can be converted into usable and immediate energy for the muscles?

I'm curious as I recently began adjusting my diet to low-carb foods. Not strictly yet, but aiming to limit carb intake to max 50gm/day. My objective is not weight-loss but rather to improve endurance on longer rides and avoid the dreaded bonk. I seem to have a low tolerance to sugary foods after a couple of hours on the bike.

As a benchmark, to monitor my progress, I rode 100km yesterday morning fasted. I've never done anything like this but wanted to find out how I'd cope. Pace was a steady 20kmh avg. Felt good for the first couple of hours. Third hour started to feel a bit tired and grumpy (couldn’t be bothered to wave to other cyclists!). By the fourth hour I was feeling decidedly not great, riding into a ditch at one point  . I had emergency rations in my bag but managed to hold-off until I got home. Strangely, when I got home I wasn't feeling ravenous immediately. Within an hour though I was seriously hungry.

I'll try it again in a month's time to see if there's any improvement.

[hellymedic]

A *really* skinny person still has 5-10% of body weight as fat; that's around 4kg or more...

[ChillyPanda]

A *really* skinny person still has 5-10% of body weight as fat; that's around 4kg or more...

wow, that must be a lot of calories.

[hellymedic]

It is!

A day without food will only use about 250g fat...

[thesloth]

I wonder if a strict keto diet is compatible with endurance-type activities, such as audax, in the longer term.

It is! ...for me at any rate.
Last year I gave the ketosis a hard push. I stuck to the rules militantly from the beginning of the year. I didn't start to see performance gains immediately. The weight loss was quick, but it took quite a while for my riding style on the bike to adapt to it. There were plenty of ups and downs to start off with. During the low points I seriously considered quitting it.
I got a good result on the 24hr TT (PB and club record) and had a very successful PBP, achieving a time that way exceeded my expectations.
While there are many factors to manage to ensure a good result on events like those I felt that the nutrition part was spot on. It is great not to have to have to carefully manage ones carb intake - too much = sick / too little = bonk.

Am I a changed man? Yes...well I was. As the year drew to a close and I didn't have any firm goals and events planned I eased off a bit: I don't miss beer, bread, pasta, potatoes, etc, but I have a real weakness for chocolate!
I'm trying to claw it back now, but it's not easy to make a such a dramatic change to one's lifestyle. I'd definitely recommend giving it a solid try out to see if it works for you...and if you feel that you can stick to it.
In my experience though you have to commit 100% to see the results.

[chrisbainbridge]

It is really interesting the comments about the power initially.  I note that ChrisS has said the same.  My problem is working out what is LCHF and what is the leftover from the worst flu I have ever had.  Hopefully I can be ready for the Easter Arrow.

[ElyDave]

Am I a changed man? Yes...well I was. As the year drew to a close and I didn't have any firm goals and events planned I eased off a bit: I don't miss beer, bread, pasta, potatoes, etc, but I have a real weakness for chocolate!

Truffles are easy to make, 100%-85% cocoa solids chocolate, double cream.  Make a ganache, add flavourings, nuts etc, roll in cocoa, cover in more dark choc etc and off you go.

[thesloth]

Am I a changed man? Yes...well I was. As the year drew to a close and I didn't have any firm goals and events planned I eased off a bit: I don't miss beer, bread, pasta, potatoes, etc, but I have a real weakness for chocolate!

Truffles are easy to make, 100%-85% cocoa solids chocolate, double cream.  Make a ganache, add flavourings, nuts etc, roll in cocoa, cover in more dark choc etc and off you go.

Oh I'm well down the road on the search for the ultimate chocolate substitute! Trouble it is they're a bit of a gateway drug, next it's 90% Lindt, 85%, 70% and before you know it you've eaten a whole box of cheap and nasty assorted chocs with sugary centres. 
Seriously though one of the major pluses of this whole escapade is one's sensitivity to sweetness. Evil items start to taste sickly sweet.
This has led me to be very happy with just a teaspoon of cacao nibs to chew on.

My wife makes a very successful high fat chocolate substitute: Butter, coconut oil, ground almond, bit of cocoa (I forget the exact quantities). It gets heated and mixed and poured into silicon chocolate moulds and placed into the fridge to set. As the primary ingredients are butter and coconut oil they are not stable a room temperature for long. Very tasty though.

[Ningishzidda]

I have an allergy to Cocoa. Can’t eat chocolate ‘candy’. Banging headaches.
Tried Carob bars as a substitute. Taste strange.

What I found is Morrisons “Cheap shit” ‘M Savers’ 30p per 100g 'milk' chocolate has so low ( 28% ) cocoa solids, it hardly gives me a headache. I DID get some headache, so I mix some crushed paracetamol in the cake mix that the M Savers chocolate is going to cover.
Helps me sleep too. 

Maybe that’s why I’m so dozy on some events cus I’m loaded with paracetamol / chocolate cake. 

[chrisbainbridge]

Hi the sloth
Would your wife share the recipe if we asked nicely?  Please.

[L CC]

I haven't tried mrs sloth's chocolates but I reckon it's a fat bomb recipe. There's loads.

[Chris S]

I'd like to try some Pemmican as trail food for long rides. It's not a readily available thing in the UK, but there are lots of recipes available online. Sadly, once it says stuff like "render the fat for the next 6 hours" my CBA-fu drains away. I don't even know (or care, TBH) what rendering is, but it seems to be a key step in the process.

[simonp]

Is it where you smear it on a wall then throw small stones at it?

[Si S]

I'd like to try some Pemmican as trail food for long rides. It's not a readily available thing in the UK, but there are lots of recipes available online. Sadly, once it says stuff like "render the fat for the next 6 hours" my CBA-fu drains away. I don't even know (or care, TBH) what rendering is, but it seems to be a key step in the process.

leave it on a low heat Chris and then strain it. You'll be pleased to hear once you've done it the clarified fat will keep for about 6 weeks in the fridge or a year or so in the freezer.

[mrcharly-YHT]

I'd like to try some Pemmican as trail food for long rides. It's not a readily available thing in the UK, but there are lots of recipes available online. Sadly, once it says stuff like "render the fat for the next 6 hours" my CBA-fu drains away. I don't even know (or care, TBH) what rendering is, but it seems to be a key step in the process.

simmer down

[Chris S]

Is it where you smear it on a wall then throw small stones at it?

I think so, yes. Pretty sure I saw a chef on TV doing it once. Looked nice 'til he painted over it.

[L CC]

BTW Chris- if you get pemmican out on a ride and expect me to eat it, you know what I'll be saying...

[Chris S]

BTW Chris- if you get pemmican out on a ride and expect me to eat it, you know what I'll be saying...

"Mmmm... gimme some of your bacony goodness!"

OK, maybe not  .

[ElyDave]

you could just go with pork scratchings and a bag of nuts.

My latest low carb chocs were a 100% cocoa and double cream ganache, a bit of brandy, chopped salted pecans, shredded toasted coconut.  Spoon into small paper case, allow to set and top with melted 85% cocoa chocolate.  I was a bit heavy on the brandy

The next batch has marmalade vodka in it.