Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?

[LMT]

Ah - one of YACF's favourite Trolls - we love you, LMT  .

I particularly like:

Carbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.

What exactly are those "High fat carbs" then?

PIES, CAEK, chips, sweet & sour foods, many desserts...

Mixtures of fat and carbs - different thing (or LMT's trolling was just ambiguous). Fat + Carbs is indeed a bad thing (and unbelievably yummy, sadly).

If you remove the carbs and just eat the fat, you'll be fine.
Remove the fat and just eat the carbs, you'll get fat and sick. Because there's no such thing as an essential carb, and it's the carbs that are fattening, not the fat.

So the odd billion + people in Asia and Africa on a diet consisting of Rice, Beans, Potatoes, Lentils, Fruits & veg are fat and sick?!? Really?!? And you think I'm trolling?

T2 diabetes is extremely prevalent amongst the South Asian population exactly because of that diet

No it's because they are 2nd and 3rd gen growing up in the UK on the SAD.

[LMT]

Other than religion is bunk?

I'm a happy omnivore and likely to stay that way.  Whilst breakfast involved eggs and smoked salmon, lunch was entirely plant based.

The real problem of "earth raping" is chronic, uncontrolled overpopulation and fuelling that entirely (almost) by carbon.

Which reinforces my view that there are too many humans

And before you start moralising, I prefer fish and game.
Look up the amount of grain fed to animals (but could be given to humans) who we then kill and eat...look up the amount of CO2 emissions given off by livestock agriculture...look at the amount of water we use for said industry...look at the programmes which document the amount of pain that we inflict on animals for no good reason.

All of this is completely unnecessary, apart from Vitamin B12 there is nothing you cannot get from a diet which excludes animal products.

Strawman alert, argue the point.

[Cudzoziemiec]

"Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast."

Need we say more?

Yebbut Cain killed Abel. Therefore we are all descended from the tiller of the soil. This and the story of Esau and Jacob are taken by some to indicate the greater advancement of agriculture over pastoralism or hunting, by others to show the original superiority of hunting over growing food, and by still others to be a distant memory of the Neanderthals.

I expect though that 'fat' is the only dietary component (as distinct from food, like eg 'mess of potage') mentioned in the Bible.

[IJL]

There are human haplatypes who don't eat plant derived starches. Inuit Indians for example who survive on seal, walrus and fish. They got an obesity problem when European R1b haplatypes brought corn, wheat and chocolate filled foods to Alaska.

I'm not sure you can separate diet and lifestyle, The traditional Inuit diet was offset by the lifestyle required to catch a walrus.  The western influence not only changed diets but brought about the ability to live like a European ie spend most of the day sat down while consuming enough calories to transform yourself into a Walrus. 

[Adam]

It's certainly unscientific to believe that humans have only been consuming grains for 7,000 years. Evidence goes back as far as at least 100,000 years ago (and even before that was discovered, 23,000 years).

It's also unscientific to believe that humans aren't adapted to consuming carbohydrates. Or did we end up with 3x the copies of the AMY1 gene as the chimpanzee by accident?

I didn't actually say humans have only been consuming grains for 7,000 years.  And if humans have adapted to consuming carbs, it's certainly not very efficient.

[LMT]

It's certainly unscientific to believe that humans have only been consuming grains for 7,000 years. Evidence goes back as far as at least 100,000 years ago (and even before that was discovered, 23,000 years).

It's also unscientific to believe that humans aren't adapted to consuming carbohydrates. Or did we end up with 3x the copies of the AMY1 gene as the chimpanzee by accident?

I didn't actually say humans have only been consuming grains for 7,000 years.  And if humans have adapted to consuming carbs, it's certainly not very efficient.

You read the China Study yet?

[Adam]

It's been proven that the fat in animal products is what contributes to insulin resistance.

A bit of basic research shows that most scientific studies agree that as the percentage of fat intake increases from 30% to 60% then insulin sensitivity does get worse.  However once you get above 60%, it turns around and improves.  It doesn't matter what food source the fat comes from.

[Adam]

You read the China Study yet?

All 350 pages?  No.  I have however read a number of summaries pointing out the massive discrepancies in the data presented by Dr Campbell, and the fact the actual study itself, rather than his book, doesn't actually show a correlation with cancer.

[Ningishzidda]

IIRC, Dr Atkins’ caveat was he advised his followers to take sufficient amounts of vitamin and mineral supplements on a daily basis alongside a reduced carb diet.
IIRC, he also advised taking regular physical exercise.

I did, joined Audax UK and had a great time.

Twenty years later, still having a great time. 

[LMT]

IIRC, Dr Atkins’ caveat was he advised his followers to take sufficient amounts of vitamin and mineral supplements on a daily basis alongside a reduced carb diet.
IIRC, he also advised taking regular physical exercise.

I did, joined Audax UK and had a great time.

Twenty years later, still having a great time. 

This to me just shows that the diet is lacking in the aforementioned vits and mins.

Dr Atkins was over 250lbs when he died, and when they cut him open they found all manner of issues regarding his vascular system. The story about how he died was that he hit his head on an icy pavement, the general consensus is though that he suffered a heart attack.

[LMT]

You read the China Study yet?

All 350 pages?  No.  I have however read a number of summaries pointing out the massive discrepancies in the data presented by Dr Campbell, and the fact the actual study itself, rather than his book, doesn't actually show a correlation with cancer.

No correlation with cancer regarding eating animal products?

[Adam]

You read the China Study yet?

All 350 pages?  No.  I have however read a number of summaries pointing out the massive discrepancies in the data presented by Dr Campbell, and the fact the actual study itself, rather than his book, doesn't actually show a correlation with cancer.

No correlation with cancer regarding eating animal products?

No - none at all.

There is of course the potential issue cancer from processed meats but that's due to the manufacturing process itself.

[Adam]

IIRC, Dr Atkins’ caveat was he advised his followers to take sufficient amounts of vitamin and mineral supplements on a daily basis alongside a reduced carb diet.
IIRC, he also advised taking regular physical exercise.

I did, joined Audax UK and had a great time.

Twenty years later, still having a great time. 

This to me just shows that the diet is lacking in the aforementioned vits and mins.

Dr Atkins was over 250lbs when he died, and when they cut him open they found all manner of issues regarding his vascular system. The story about how he died was that he hit his head on an icy pavement, the general consensus is though that he suffered a heart attack.

Slightly ingenuous there, as that's not spelling out the actual facts.  At the time of his accident, he was only 195 lbs - due to being hospitalised in intensive care for 2 weeks, he gained weight due to fluid retention, and they found he had cardiomyopathy, a heart muscle disease that was probably caused by a virus, not by what he ate.

http://www.snopes.com/medical/doctor/atkins.asp

[LMT]

IIRC, Dr Atkins’ caveat was he advised his followers to take sufficient amounts of vitamin and mineral supplements on a daily basis alongside a reduced carb diet.
IIRC, he also advised taking regular physical exercise.

I did, joined Audax UK and had a great time.

Twenty years later, still having a great time. 

This to me just shows that the diet is lacking in the aforementioned vits and mins.

Dr Atkins was over 250lbs when he died, and when they cut him open they found all manner of issues regarding his vascular system. The story about how he died was that he hit his head on an icy pavement, the general consensus is though that he suffered a heart attack.

Slightly ingenuous there, as that's not spelling out the actual facts.  At the time of his accident, he was only 195 lbs - due to being hospitalised in intensive care for 2 weeks, he gained weight due to fluid retention, and they found he had cardiomyopathy, a heart muscle disease that was probably caused by a virus, not by what he ate.

http://www.snopes.com/medical/doctor/atkins.asp

An interesting link, he had already suffered a heart attack - but did not blame it on his diet. And the 195 pound weight is as cited by his widow and the APC, so obviously no material bias there then, lol.

[Adam]

This to me just shows that the diet is lacking in the aforementioned vits and mins.

You can follow Atkins without the supplements - he tended to advocate them to ward off certain conditions.  In any event, Atkins is far from unique as realistically you can't be a vegan and survive without supplements, whilst I could live perfectly happily as a vegetarian and not also have to worry about missing out on some obscure amino acid or similar.

[LMT]

You read the China Study yet?

All 350 pages?  No.  I have however read a number of summaries pointing out the massive discrepancies in the data presented by Dr Campbell, and the fact the actual study itself, rather than his book, doesn't actually show a correlation with cancer.

No correlation with cancer regarding eating animal products?

No - none at all.

There is of course the potential issue cancer from processed meats but that's due to the manufacturing process itself.

So you agree that there is there is a correlation between animal products and cancer - thanks for clearing that up.

[Adam]

You read the China Study yet?

All 350 pages?  No.  I have however read a number of summaries pointing out the massive discrepancies in the data presented by Dr Campbell, and the fact the actual study itself, rather than his book, doesn't actually show a correlation with cancer.

No correlation with cancer regarding eating animal products?

No - none at all.

There is of course the potential issue cancer from processed meats but that's due to the manufacturing process itself.

So you agree that there is there is a correlation between animal products and cancer - thanks for clearing that up.

No - as I stated it's down to the manufacturing process.  If you eat deep fried, nitrate infused, courgettes in sunflower oil you're increasing your cancer risk.

[LMT]

This to me just shows that the diet is lacking in the aforementioned vits and mins.

You can follow Atkins without the supplements - he tended to advocate them to ward off certain conditions.  In any event, Atkins is far from unique as realistically you can't be a vegan and survive without supplements, whilst I could live perfectly happily as a vegetarian and not also have to worry about missing out on some obscure amino acid or similar.

All that fat has messed with your brain, a plant based whole foods vegan diet is about as nutrient, vitamin and mineral dense as you can possibly get. With the exception of vit B12, which non vegans can suffer from a lack of so it is impossible to say whether this is purely due to dietary choices.

[LMT]

You read the China Study yet?

All 350 pages?  No.  I have however read a number of summaries pointing out the massive discrepancies in the data presented by Dr Campbell, and the fact the actual study itself, rather than his book, doesn't actually show a correlation with cancer.

No correlation with cancer regarding eating animal products?

No - none at all.

There is of course the potential issue cancer from processed meats but that's due to the manufacturing process itself.

So you agree that there is there is a correlation between animal products and cancer - thanks for clearing that up.

No - as I stated it's down to the manufacturing process.  If you eat deep fried, nitrate infused, courgettes in sunflower oil you're increasing your cancer risk.

 

[Adam]

You read the China Study yet?

All 350 pages?  No.  I have however read a number of summaries pointing out the massive discrepancies in the data presented by Dr Campbell, and the fact the actual study itself, rather than his book, doesn't actually show a correlation with cancer.

No correlation with cancer regarding eating animal products?

No - none at all.

There is of course the potential issue cancer from processed meats but that's due to the manufacturing process itself.

So you agree that there is there is a correlation between animal products and cancer - thanks for clearing that up.

No - as I stated it's down to the manufacturing process.  If you eat deep fried, nitrate infused, courgettes in sunflower oil you're increasing your cancer risk.

 

 

Meh.

[Manotea]

So, I've been following a Keto diet this year. As to whether I shall live longer (ref recent posts) I don't know but I'm enjoying being out of the insulin cycle.

The flipside of this though is a loss of appetite; I just don't feel hungry any more. I enjoy eating and I'm generally eating better quality food than I was previously but life definitely feels a bit greyer, a bit like how being on prozac/valium is described.

I've also lost a pyschological crutch, in that when riding I'd occasionally have a carb based snack - anything from a jelly baby on up - as a pickmeup, but with Keto (a) there is no need and (b) no point, as the nutritional benefit/effect of anything eaten is not felt for several hours. The old mantra of 'just keep eating' no longer applies.

So yesterday, I had breakfast about 7am, rode the KVR100 (well, most of it), eyed the toast and cakes at the arrivee which looked very nice and normally I'd have been 'all over' but passed,. I eventually had a light snack at home around 5pm because I felt I ought to eat something but I still wasn't 'hungry'.

This loss of appetite is useful when living a sedentry lifestyle, but how do you ensure you get enough to eat when the workload cranks up? Is it simply a matter of keeping an eye on the scales and ensuring you eat enough to maintain your target body weight?

[chrisbainbridge]

Tim Noakes has the same problem that he says he can go over a day without eating as he just is not hungry.

I suppose that eventually you will drop to a fat percentage which your body thinks is low enough that you should go and chase another antelope.  You will then need to eat.

My wife and I are also having problems with the psychological side.  We were brought up by parents who fed us 3 times a day and woe betide you if you didn't eat it all.  Also for both of us, but differently, food was used as a reward and support mechanism.  When we have a hard day at work, there is a small, but persistent, vice that tells us that we deserve a treat or a reward.  We have swapped to cheese or pepperami but it is difficult to overcome the psychology even though we know it is there.

I have consciously tried to make our food brighter and a lot more vegetables as we started to eat in a LCHF fashion.  Last night was a special dinner but we had steamed asparagus with home made hollandaise  (bought contains sugar!), followed by Pork belly, cauliflower mash, pan fried courgette spaghetti and mushrooms.  Then we had raspberries with cream.  certainly not Grey and enough flavours to satisfy.

We are still trying to lose weight so being very good but in a couple of months we will add back in some almond flour based cakes and so on but they are high calorie as well as Low carb and dangerous at the moment.  My wife is gluten free so I was getting better at gluten free cakes enough before this.  one thing I had found was that cornmeal makes good muffins in my hands but was not very good at making large loaves which gave portion control.

It is interesting looking at the Hemsley sisters because a lot of their recipes are perfect and very easy.

[Chinaski]

So, I've been following a Keto diet this year. As to whether I shall live longer (ref recent posts) I don't know but I'm enjoying being out of the insulin cycle.

The flipside of this though is a loss of appetite; I just don't feel hungry any more. I enjoy eating and I'm generally eating better quality food than I was previously but life definitely feels a bit greyer, a bit like how being on prozac/valium is described.

I've also lost a pyschological crutch, in that when riding I'd occasionally have a carb based snack - anything from a jelly baby on up - as a pickmeup, but with Keto (a) there is no need and (b) no point, as the nutritional benefit/effect of anything eaten is not felt for several hours. The old mantra of 'just keep eating' no longer applies.

So yesterday, I had breakfast about 7am, rode the KVR100 (well, most of it), eyed the toast and cakes at the arrivee which looked very nice and normally I'd have been 'all over' but passed,. I eventually had a light snack at home around 5pm because I felt I ought to eat something but I still wasn't 'hungry'.

This loss of appetite is useful when living a sedentry lifestyle, but how do you ensure you get enough to eat when the workload cranks up? Is it simply a matter of keeping an eye on the scales and ensuring you eat enough to maintain your target body weight?

I wouldn't worry about appetite too much, once your bodyfat drops I'd imagine your body will figure it out.

This guy is interesting. Currently having on ongoing discussion/argument with Dr Ludwig on obesity crisis which you'll find on his website
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.ie/

Good podcast on how body regulates fat levels
http://sigmanutrition.com/episode68/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22238401

As for carbs and ketones have a read here
http://eatingacademy.com/sports-and-nutrition/ketones-carbohydrates-can-co-exist

[Manotea]

Just made a batch of chilli using a different brand of chilli powder.

This batch is going to last a bit longer than the last one..

Edit: for maybe not. A day of rest has brought it on nicely. God. Its good, though I say so myself. And the best bit is the houseful of wimmin I live with will not touch it, so it's mine, all mine. The first mouthful seems quite innocent so you have some more, except by then the kick from the first mouthful starts to make itself known. 

[Manotea]

A bit of real life and poor diet management means I've fallen off the wagon. The experience is akin to an alcoholic going on a bender. Having transgressed you may as well make it worthwhile....

I'm sure sanity - or what passes as - will soon prevail.