Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?

[pcolbeck]

We are not designed to eat meat/dairy products, compare the bio-chemistry of those that are born carnivores with human beings. Their system is acidic and they can metabolise dietary cholesterol, we cannot.

Where do you get this stuff from. All mammals have roughly similar blood pH. The cat which is about as carnivorous a creature as you can get has a blood pH of 7.3-7.4 very close to ours and very definitely slightly alkaline not acidic.

And on a secondary note you do know that most people of Northern Europeans ancestry and and some Africans have a gene that specifically allows for lactose consumption after babyhood ? So some of us at least are evolved to consume dairy products.

[LMT]

If you want to be trained, you need to train - pfft, no one is arguing that.

But on low carb you cannot train beyond a certain threshold.

Bollocks.

I'll await your 20 mins Z4 effort then....

*sigh*
They're right there in my training log from last autumn when I was righteously keto, rigorously training, losing weight and generally kicking butt.

Where can I view these and what is your FTP for reference?

[L CC]

You can't view these because they're not in the public domain. I'm fairly sure that there are real athletes out there willing to show their numbers though, you don't have to look at the stats for a fat middle aged woman to see that people who limit the carbohydrates in their diet are perfectly capable of doing high end training.

I'd have a lot more respect for your dietary choices if you stopped trying to justify them with pseudo scientific rubbish - but then- you think that about my diet choices, too.

[LMT]

You can't view these because they're not in the public domain. I'm fairly sure that there are real athletes out there willing to show their numbers though, you don't have to look at the stats for a fat middle aged woman to see that people who limit the carbohydrates in their diet are perfectly capable of doing high end training.

I'd have a lot more respect for your dietary choices if you stopped trying to justify them with pseudo scientific rubbish - but then- you think that about my diet choices, too.

LOL

Knock yourself out:-

Protein and heart disease
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYuxGs49k-o&list=PL5TLzNi5fYd9Q4Lfm8Zw3afIWobMV7-iT&index=24

Egg cholesterol in the diet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNby8ongJsM&list=PL5TLzNi5fYd9Q4Lfm8Zw3afIWobMV7-iT

Harvard's Meat and Mortality Studies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud7RkxtO3-Y

Animal Protein -- Meat and Dairy -- Cause Cancer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfsT-qYeqGM

Why is Meat a Risk Factor for Diabetes?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t4tBmbPko8

If White Rice is Linked to Diabetes, What About China?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aFxzAZdv7Y

Cure Type 2 Diabetes With Sugar & White Rice - Dr. McDougall
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cl2IX94GCI

Why Doctors Don't Recommend A Vegan Diet | Dr. Michael Greger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d1Ca6SsKfE

Dr Michael Greger, MD discusses diabetes and the dangers of low carb diets
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es4PFR5GZTY

Alkaline Diets, Animal Protein, and Calcium Loss
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9XTjnvlIUI

Humans are Herbivores in Denial - w/ Science!
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=2031119;topic=67736.475

[LMT]

We are not designed to eat meat/dairy products, compare the bio-chemistry of those that are born carnivores with human beings. Their system is acidic and they can metabolise dietary cholesterol, we cannot.

Where do you get this stuff from. All mammals have roughly similar blood pH. The cat which is about as carnivorous a creature as you can get has a blood pH of 7.3-7.4 very close to ours and very definitely slightly alkaline not acidic.

And on a secondary note you do know that most people of Northern Europeans ancestry and and some Africans have a gene that specifically allows for lactose consumption after babyhood ? So some of us at least are evolved to consume dairy products.

Not quite sure where you get blood from, the enzymes used to break down food are acidic, the acid in the stomach is typically 20 times stronger than that of a human being. Why do you think that the rate of heart disease and diabetes is on the up?

[pcolbeck]

Because you posted that eating meat made your blood acidic.

[Ian H]

The following is from sciencebasedmedicine.org.


 

As Ben Goldacre said in Bad Science:  The most important take-home message with diet and health is that anyone who ever expresses anything with certainty is basically wrong, because the evidence for cause and effect in this area is almost always weak and circumstantial…

[LMT]

Because you posted that eating meat made your blood acidic.

So I did, I meant the system of carnivores as mentioned in another post, as for your dairy thing:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJvrlwnEqbs

[caerau]

>the enzymes used to break down food are acidic<


No they aren't and don't argue - I am a biological organic chemist - you're talking out of your arse.  Please stop.

I shall have to try posting a bunch of youtube links in my next publication, I'm sure that will pass peer review


Your stomach might be acidic - a protein (which enzymes are) might be acidic, it might be basic, depending on its pI (I expect you knew that - not) but then that's irrelevant as the bulk concentration of protons in solution controls the pH and that thereby determines the protonation state of the molecules and ions dissolved in it.

Really please stop.

Been lurking and finding the level of pseudoscientific crap (not just from you to be fair) really quite frightening but too much wine here has made me crack. Sorry.

[caerau]

The following is from sciencebasedmedicine.org.


 

As Ben Goldacre said in Bad Science:  The most important take-home message with diet and health is that anyone who ever expresses anything with certainty is basically wrong, because the evidence for cause and effect in this area is almost always weak and circumstantial…

Indeed

[LMT]

The youtube links that I've posted are narrated and presented by Doctor's that are well versed in diet and nutrition. If people want to dismiss this is pseudo science and continue with what is a fad diet - then fuck it. Who am I to stop you reinforcing bad habits with the likes of Atkins, Sisson, Noakes et al.

Carry on people.

[Ian H]

Another quote from the link above.

I hear that all the time from people who have been overwhelmed by the information presented in a video that supports their beliefs. They assume that the evidence presented is incontrovertible, and that anyone who agreed to watch it would necessarily be converted to their beliefs. These videos tend to fall into an easily recognizable pattern. They feature a charismatic scientist with an agenda who makes sweeping statements that go beyond the evidence, makes unwarranted assumptions about the meaning of studies, and omits any reference to contradictory evidence.

[hellymedic]

>the enzymes used to break down food are acidic<
No they aren't and don't argue -

Save your (alkaline) bile...

[ElyDave]

15-20 million years of human evolution has taught us that glucose is the primary source of fuel for the body and brain. When someone falls off the wagon by eating carb then they are only doing what is natural. No need to fret.

Er, no it isn't

Muscles can work very well on lipolysis, and the brain can utilise ketones very effectively

Er yes it is. Me thinks you have misinterpreted my post, nay bother I'll bold the bit that you misread.

I didn't misinterpret anything, I disagreed with you. I still do.

[ElyDave]

We are not designed to eat meat/dairy products, compare the bio-chemistry of those that are born carnivores with human beings. Their system is acidic and they can metabolise dietary cholesterol, we cannot.

Where do you get this stuff from. All mammals have roughly similar blood pH. The cat which is about as carnivorous a creature as you can get has a blood pH of 7.3-7.4 very close to ours and very definitely slightly alkaline not acidic.

And on a secondary note you do know that most people of Northern Europeans ancestry and and some Africans have a gene that specifically allows for lactose consumption after babyhood ? So some of us at least are evolved to consume dairy products.

Not quite sure where you get blood from, the enzymes used to break down food are acidic, the acid in the stomach is typically 20 times stronger than that of a human being. Why do you think that the rate of heart disease and diabetes is on the up?

Please stop talking about diabetes, you have demonstrated zero understanding of the condition.

Next thing I expect you'll tell me I'm responsible for my type 1, and be disagreeing with my consultant who was extremely happy with my last hbA1c which matched that of a non diabetic on, you've guessed it, a low carb, high fat diet. His quote, no evidence against it, and it seems to be working for you.

[hellymedic]

<Anecdata> My erstwhile insulin-dependent diabetic uncle (late onset) is off insulin and has normal blood sugars on a red meat-free, dairy-free, low-carb diet.

[ElyDave]

<Anecdata> My erstwhile insulin-dependent diabetic uncle (late onset) is off insulin and has normal blood sugars on a red meat-free, dairy-free, low-carb diet.

Good for him, I'm on average using 6-8 units a day, right at the bottom of the scale.  I think this is due to a combination of low carb diet and general fitness prolonging the honeymoon period. I suspect some residual pancreatic function.

[closetleftie]

<Anecdata> My erstwhile insulin-dependent diabetic uncle (late onset) is off insulin and has normal blood sugars on a red meat-free, dairy-free, low-carb diet.

No (OK, little) meat, no dairy, low carbs. Isn't that called just not eating?  Avocado, eggs, nuts and mackerel, over and over and over again?


Only slightly tongue-in-cheek. Whatever works for an individual is the right choice for them - we are likely to have different dietary "sweet spots" in the same way as we have different hair colours. And good diabetic control is almost certainly a bigger health benefit to your uncle than any association between dietary animal protein and longer-term health risks.

For me, the LCHF diet is simply a way of eating say 2000 kCal in a single sitting, feeling utterly stuffed and slightly nauseous for about four hours, followed by feeling ravenous again. n=1, natch.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Not all meats are red or fish e.g. chicken is quite cheaply and easily available.

[closetleftie]

Not all meats are red or fish e.g. chicken is quite cheaply and easily available.

You don't say? 

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Not all meats are red or fish e.g. chicken is quite cheaply and easily available.

You don't say? 

Condemning somebody to mackerel day after day is probably against the Geneva Convention, or should be.

[Andrew]

I like mackerel 

Though admittedly probably not for every meal.

[IJL]

It's often said that they key to a species survival is to range widely over the earth and be able to eat a wide range of things, thus if you are a Koala you need to worry.  Humans however can be found in most areas of the world and thrive on a huge variety of foods.  It's quite impressive how adaptable human physiology is. Early man was a persistent hunter doing lots of work on whatever he or she could find. 

We now seems to be in a position where the volume of food consumed is one the greatest threat to health in large parts of the world, the type of food is likely to be an issue as well but people like simple answers and to blame a specific food type appeals to many.  However the simplest diet advice I have heard is that people should "eat less, most plants"

Then comes the pseudoscience, popular culture is full of it, changes to Ph of blood sound quite feasible and when mixed with a bit more pseudoscience it can rapidly sound like reasonable diet advice.  Unless of course you know a little physiology or have read a few blood gas results, most people haven't.
 

[Andrew]

The following is from sciencebasedmedicine.org.

Also from there, this confuses me (my bold)

Diabetes can be treated and controlled with diet, weight loss, medication, obesity surgery, and even islet cell transplants. The symptoms subside, the blood sugar normalizes, and some patients no longer need their medication after they lose weight and make other lifestyle changes. But we don’t consider it “cured.”

I thought diabetes was exactly that; abnormal blood sugars. When blood sugars normalise, are we not 'cured'? Or are we saying that we are all potential diabetics? Diabetes lays in wait (or weight  ) for us all?

[Chris S]

My layman's understanding of diabetes is it's a disease of insulin production or usage, which makes it difficult/impossible to control blood sugar.

A low-carb diet isn't a cure - but helps in blood sugar management.