Author Topic: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?  (Read 198154 times)

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #525 on: 02 June, 2016, 11:17:09 pm »
Yet I can function on 10% of that, with no weight problems and am having a great time on the bike this year. My only issue is needing to artificially manage carbs vs insulin.

Fat, fat, fat, all the way.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

simonp

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #526 on: 02 June, 2016, 11:18:10 pm »
"Among its many well-known functions, insulin is also a potent anorexigenic hormone[...]"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16933179/


ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #527 on: 02 June, 2016, 11:23:16 pm »
Good job I keep mine to the minimum then
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

simonp

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #528 on: 02 June, 2016, 11:30:00 pm »
Good job I keep mine to the minimum then

Nothing to do with you. Simply a response to the claim a few posts above that insulin stimulates appetite. The reverse is true.

LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #529 on: 02 June, 2016, 11:41:47 pm »
Yet I can function on 10% of that, with no weight problems and am having a great time on the bike this year. My only issue is needing to artificially manage carbs vs insulin.

Fat, fat, fat, all the way.

Okay, that was not the point I was rebutting but hey ho.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #530 on: 04 June, 2016, 11:37:45 am »
Yes quite right Simon. I badly paraphrased. I think the mechanism suggested is that elevated insulin causes leptin resistance and so a lack of satiety. Also the consequent blood glucose undershoot following the insulin spike encourages further consumption.

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #531 on: 04 June, 2016, 12:58:49 pm »
Either way, good to keep insulin low in that case.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #532 on: 05 June, 2016, 10:10:50 pm »
There's likely to be inter - individual variability in these pathways:

a) the magnitude of any insulin spike for a given carbohydrate  load
b) the satiety pathways are complex
c) etc....

I see "straightforward" single - system pathways (e.g. BP changes with fluid loading) vary all the time, so complex ones are likely to be even more variable. The problem is, your mitochondria haven't read the textbooks....

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #533 on: 10 June, 2016, 07:30:58 pm »
Cover story on this week's New Scientist

I wouldn't say it's a very comprehensive summary of the debate, but worth a read never the less.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #534 on: 11 June, 2016, 02:12:41 pm »
From another thread, but it seems to sit better here...


Mark Sisson's Primal Movements might be a good start - including Progression Videos:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/a-fitness-plan-so-easy-a-caveman-did-it/

Interesting website, that. Like the emphasis on doing a variety of exercises and moving in different ways. Stands to reason that loading a given joint in different ways will keep its full range and prevent injury, compared to a single movement repeated many times. Also prevents boredom! Likewise, the emphasis on play being the ultimate purpose of exercise is really good.



OT: What's even more interesting is (IMO anyway  ;D )how the "headline message" is exactly the opposite to what the plan itself suggests:

"You can eat more fat and don't have to count calories! Here, have a look at this meal with no carbs!" Then proceed to make a salad with a few pine nuts and a piece of chicken (no skin). Dash of vinaigrette. 500kCal total. Four, even five meals like that per day is calorie restriction.

"Fat keeps you full for longer!" Then serve a relatively small portion of fat-containing nuts and avo with a shovelful of leafy greens (i.e. very low-density carbohydrate). Eeerm, maybe it's the bulk of the vegetables keeping you full, not the fat per se?

"You don't have to do lots of exercise! Brief bursts is all it takes!" Then describe 5 hours of HR 120bpm stuff/week plus some strength training plus one balls-to-the-wall-eyes-popping sprint session every now and again. Oh, and the play and the stretches, of course. That is a lot of exercise for most people.

Now, I'm not saying that keeping an eye on the calories and getting enough exercise isn't a good idea. It is. And the diet and exercise plan described is very good. But it simply isn't the antithesis to Conventional Wisdom (sic) as he says. It's still calories in < calories out. If you followed the headline messages only, and did only brief bursts of exercise whilst eating only salad with lots of cheese and dressing, you'd still gain weight. OTOH, if you followed Conventional Wisdom (dontcha love the way he capitalises the words?  8) ) and ate some pasta with your salad, rather than avocado f'rinstance, you'd lose weight. Calories in < calories out is what counts; the rest is all about how to achieve that without going mad with hunger or boredom.



(Even further OT: The pejorative line in hospitals is "the larger the theatre nurse, the greater the likelihood that she will be seen eating salad at lunch time".)

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #535 on: 11 June, 2016, 03:21:12 pm »

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #536 on: 11 June, 2016, 06:25:04 pm »
I wasn't consciously engaging in fat shaming, otherCL. Merely making the point that there are many obese folk doing precisely what the "primal" or "paleo" approach suggests will be a surefire way of looking like Bruce Lee/Lara Croft, and not making headway. The flip side is that there are many skinny and healthy vegans around who can't by definition "eat primally".

However, if you still feel that the post is inappropriate, I'll take that bit down.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #537 on: 11 June, 2016, 06:33:26 pm »
I work with some of the leading lights in satiety research, and some of the leading lights in behaviour change. If you were to average the BMIs of the satiety lot and the behaviour change lot, we in behaviour change would be skinnier.

I don't know if that's relevant, but Simon Griffin, previously of MRC epidemiology, used to point out that the epidemiologists were skinnier than the geneticists.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #538 on: 11 June, 2016, 08:15:57 pm »
ketogenic diet is a fad imo, unless you live by it long-term, and then its just a miserable existance

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #539 on: 11 June, 2016, 11:24:43 pm »
It's very easy to get caught up in the hype about it, and that might well lead you to think it's a fad.

If I said to you that most of the time, I choose not to eat grains or sugar, or any processed foods made from them, but instead eat lots of fruit, vegetables and healthy meats and fats, would it still sound "extreme"? If so, is it more or less extreme than the modern Western diet based on huge amounts of processed food, especially sugar?


CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #540 on: 11 June, 2016, 11:36:40 pm »
I wasn't consciously engaging in fat shaming, otherCL. Merely making the point that there are many obese folk doing precisely what the "primal" or "paleo" approach suggests will be a surefire way of looking like Bruce Lee/Lara Croft, and not making headway. The flip side is that there are many skinny and healthy vegans around who can't by definition "eat primally".

However, if you still feel that the post is inappropriate, I'll take that bit down.

There was another post after yours.

JennyB

  • Old enough to know better
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #541 on: 12 June, 2016, 06:35:35 am »
How (if at all) is the mean's of burning digested fat related to the means of bu ring stored fat?
Jennifer - Walker of hills

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #542 on: 12 June, 2016, 10:51:29 am »
It's very easy to get caught up in the hype about it, and that might well lead you to think it's a fad.

If I said to you that most of the time, I choose not to eat grains or sugar, or any processed foods made from them, but instead eat lots of fruit, vegetables and healthy meats and fats, would it still sound "extreme"? If so, is it more or less extreme than the modern Western diet based on huge amounts of processed food, especially sugar?

Not extreme at all - it is a good diet and likely to work for weight control. It's just that the pseudoscience-explanation for why/how it works is wrong. A "less extreme" version of the western diet, containing grain as well as the aforementioned fruit and vegetables, is no less likely to work for the same purpose, provided the total calorie intake is similar. Furthermore, there are other health benefits to be gained from limiting or eliminating animal - derived food from the diet. It's a balance to be struck for each individual, depending on which diet works for their particular preferences.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #543 on: 12 June, 2016, 04:37:02 pm »
I have been doing kept since january.  i have cycled about the same as previous years but have far more endurance and can go much further without needing to eat.  as with anything, if you train the body to burn fat then it will do and i personally think that gives more endurance than burning very limited amounts of glycogen.

I eat a better diet with more vegetables than before but have a much higher ratio of olive oil, butter and lard.  I eat more eggs than before and more cheese.  I agree totally about the need to have less calories in than out in order to reduce weight.  I think that for me the calorie dense and good mouthfeel foods like fat and protein are better than the poor mouthfeel calorie light foods on a standard slimming diet.

So i would rather have double cream in my coffee than skimmed milk and drink less coffee and eat less as a result.

I now find that carbs leave me bloated and ill feeling.  I am presently in the Alps for a cycling camp.  I did a 500m in 10km climb with a 5 km approach and then a 60 km ride today with no specific dietary carbs and feel fine.  Instead of gels I take a babble or two for emergencies!

My plan for very long rides is probably to refuel on pesto which I love, although if I can stop and have an omelette I would do.

Is kept a panacea for weight loss - NO
Is the present low fat, high carb diet working in the western world -absolutely NOT


hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #544 on: 12 June, 2016, 05:17:16 pm »
What's a 'babble' for emergencies?

Andrew

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #545 on: 12 June, 2016, 05:46:46 pm »
I'm guessing predictive text/auto spell correction has mangled his Mini Babybels...

 

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #546 on: 12 June, 2016, 06:54:30 pm »
OIC...
I genuinely was puzzled!

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #547 on: 13 June, 2016, 02:27:42 pm »
I have been doing kept since january.  i have cycled about the same as previous years but have far more endurance and can go much further without needing to eat.  as with anything, if you train the body to burn fat then it will do and i personally think that gives more endurance than burning very limited amounts of glycogen.

may i add that on a balanced diet (carbs+fat+protein+...) body is using fat as a primary source for for fuel as well, it is just more adapted to use the glycogen which body has for about 1.5h in reserve for higher intensity efforts. if i ride an audax i can ride it without eating anything, just at lower intensity. recent ride (200km in 7h) required four bananas; without bananas it would have taken 8h, at a guess. if i was keto-adapted i wonder if could do it in under 7h - i think not.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #548 on: 13 June, 2016, 04:44:54 pm »
Intensity is interesting. I have just done a 90 minute watt bike session this morning with a 20 minute FTP test. Average HR was 168 for the 20 minutes so pretty close to full on even thoughI am very unfit at the moment.  Then I had a vegetable and meat lunch, no carbs followed by 2.5 hours of full on velodrome riding.  came back and ate some pesto and babybel.  no carbs and no gels. So high intensity is doable on keto.

Adam

  • It'll soon be summer
    • Charity ride Durness to Dover 18-25th June 2011
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #549 on: 13 June, 2016, 08:48:24 pm »
for reference, i had four bananas at roughly 70, 110, 150, 180km of 204km audax and nothing else apart from 800ml of water. average speed 29kph, diet type - balanced :)

On the face of it and taking into account the average speed and power needed for said speed. I'd say a sound aerobic system, with plant based carbs to top up the energy levels that you would have burned pedalling up some hills or just 'giving it some' on the flats.

That's a thumbs up from me.

Someone on the Keto would have crashed and burned if they tried to keep up with you on a sustained climb. :thumbsup:


Not actually the case. A week ago I climbed Mont Ventoux on a 35 year old Bickerton, setting off 35 km away, at 9 am.  All I had for breakfast was some cheese and some ham.  My average speed climbing once I'd started on the mountain was around 10 km/hour, and yet I still overtook quite a few other riders younger than me, on some very fancy bikes.  At no time did I feel like I was crashing and burning, unlike the poor souls rapidly depleting their glycogen supplies as they were stuck with carbs.  That's the nice thing about being ketogenic - you can't bonk, you just keep on going.  Then I turned round, went whizzing down back to my hotel, and had a small snack for lunch.
“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving.” -Albert Einstein