Author Topic: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?  (Read 201565 times)

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #675 on: 08 January, 2017, 05:39:25 pm »
i tried doing carbs during a long ride except in very small amounts.  I know the effect that carbs have on me on non exercise days - SLEEP, so have tended to avoid them in the last few long rides.

I think Chris S is far more relaxed during a ride and will partake of Cake and other nutrients.

each to their own.

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #676 on: 08 January, 2017, 05:56:24 pm »
I think Chris S is far more relaxed during a ride and will partake of Cake and other nutrients.

Bah! Rumbled!!

Guilty as charged, m'lud  ;D.

I tend to be keto-righteous on a day to day basis, but do relax when on a ride and will seek out whatever I fancy. That said, I'll quite often do large chunks of rides on nothing at all; the last two 200s I rode, I had nothing for the first 100/130km.

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #677 on: 08 January, 2017, 06:12:15 pm »
I think I probably COULD except for the defective pancreas, oddly enough it's the inability to regulate my insulin automatically that's the buggeration factor with about a four hour lag time between a change on the pump and it taking effect. I think I've got to a happy mediumthese days at 20% of normal and accepting that I need SOME carbs to maintain correct levels.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #678 on: 08 January, 2017, 07:18:49 pm »
Wow, thanks for the replies, much appreciated.
The last 200km audax I did was the Venetian nights. I did my usual and forced myself to fuel on carbs all round which seemed to work but the last 30 km or so over axe edge had me walking most of the way in the darkness as my legs had gone. Anyway, I finished with about half an hour to spare but didn't want any food on offer, but forced a bowl of apple pie and custard down to replace some of my missing glycogen in the muscles and made my way home. I'd got onto the motorway when my stomach decided it had enough sugar and I ended up with a lap full, not to mention the dashboard. You can imagine the conversation when I got home.

I'm considering entering LEL, it may be my only chance at my age and think I may be better off if I'm adapted to burn fat.
Does the panel think I should reduce my high intensity training days in the gym while I go through cold turkey?

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #679 on: 09 January, 2017, 06:47:50 pm »
I am not a gym person and my idea of high intensity is probably very different to yours.  However i would suggest not changing anything in terms of training but just push through accepting that you may feel pretty rubbish on some days.

make sure that you take a lot more salt as insulin promotes salt retention by the kidneys and low insulin leads to increased salt loss and headaches for many people.

i used to eat a Knorr chicken stock sachet per day to add extra salt.


simonp

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #680 on: 09 January, 2017, 06:54:59 pm »
Feeling rubbish on some days - how do you tell that apart from training?


ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #681 on: 09 January, 2017, 07:12:54 pm »
I'm about halfway through this, interesting read

"Evidence that supports the prescription of low-carbohydrate high-fat diets: a narrative review"
http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/2/133.full
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #682 on: 10 January, 2017, 02:45:59 pm »
I'm considering entering LEL, it may be my only chance at my age and think I may be better off if I'm adapted to burn fat.
Does the panel think I should reduce my high intensity training days in the gym while I go through cold turkey?

If you are trying to fat adapt I'd be inclined to take a two pronged approach; namely diet changes and fasted training/sedentary fasts.

On diet I haven't found it necessary to go keto, lchf approach is fine. If I cut fruit from my diet and the odd startchy veg I'd probably qualify as keto, but I eat 5/6 pieces of fruit a day typically later in day.

Just cut junk carbs from diet; crappy breads(which is about 99% of what is sold), granolas etc etc, any refined carbs really. Any carbs high in fibre and with some protein I'd be inclined to keep in, wild rice, millet etc

On lifestyle, skip breakfast 1/2 days a week and see how you adapt. Just have an extra large lunch or whatever.

Once you are comfortable with skipping breakfast, try an odd 24 hr fast; for me now when travelling it's trivial. Water and black coffee and no hunger.

Then try some short fasted rides to begin; and hour or two. See how you go. Bring a little food if you feel miserable. I've done up to 180km with 1800m completely fasted and on longer 200km-500km rides will always start fasted and not eat anything up to 130-150km. It took me about 18months to skip breakfast on longer rides, the biggest adaptation is the mental challenge of cutting something out rather than a physiological one,

I think you can make big improvements in 6 months but I personally noted changes for 2 years plus.

On very long rides I will have some "junk" carbs like chocolate milk,chocolate but primarily real food. For example my hardest one day ride last year was 440km with 5000m climbing. Food for day was
180km: 250ml chocolate milk and two apples, small snickers bar.
250km: soup and meat/cheese sandwich
340km: apple, banana, can of coke. and bought 500ml energy drink for last 100km.
Other than that just water for day.

Away from calories,arguments over insulin etc etc, on long distance the primary advantages are not needing to stop as much for food or to use toilet. Gastric issues are never an issue. On that 440km ride I was stopped for almost exactly an hour, that was for all water refills, navigation, food and toilet stops.


Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #683 on: 11 January, 2017, 11:07:09 am »
That's an interesting post Chinaski, thanks.

I was wondering if a possible half-way house would work. I've not yet bit the bullet but have gone this week (so far) simply reducing my carb intake and increasing my fat intake with following results:

Fat to carbs seems to be about evens with protein making up quite a bit of my calories. anyhow Monday was feeling a little tired mid afternoon. Tuesday is one of my HIT days in the gym and I have to say I felt somewhat lacking in energy like never before. I couldn't do the session as I was hoping, instead I managed 5 x 3.75 Min @ about 196W with my heart up @165-175. Before Christmas this level was reasonably easy to complete 3 x 10Mins with stable hr 165.

Last year I did a couple of fasted rides early morning, I managed 2.5 Hrs before my legs started feeling they needed some fuel and I stopped and ate some food.
I'm going to try and reduce my carb intake and increase my fat intake further going forwards and see if this helps. By the way my poop was a definite lighter shade of sand this morning, like Aunti Helen reported. Don't know if this means my body is already accepting some changes.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #684 on: 11 January, 2017, 11:19:49 am »
That's an interesting post Chinaski, thanks.

I was wondering if a possible half-way house would work. I've not yet bit the bullet but have gone this week (so far) simply reducing my carb intake and increasing my fat intake with following results:

Fat to carbs seems to be about evens with protein making up quite a bit of my calories. anyhow Monday was feeling a little tired mid afternoon. Tuesday is one of my HIT days in the gym and I have to say I felt somewhat lacking in energy like never before. I couldn't do the session as I was hoping, instead I managed 5 x 3.75 Min @ about 196W with my heart up @165-175. Before Christmas this level was reasonably easy to complete 3 x 10Mins with stable hr 165.

Last year I did a couple of fasted rides early morning, I managed 2.5 Hrs before my legs started feeling they needed some fuel and I stopped and ate some food.
I'm going to try and reduce my carb intake and increase my fat intake further going forwards and see if this helps. By the way my poop was a definite lighter shade of sand this morning, like Aunti Helen reported. Don't know if this means my body is already accepting some changes.

I'd expect you to feel some fatigue/lower energy while you adapt for a week or two.

Mixing endurance rides of significant length (100km plus) did cause an issue or two for me when doing a lot of strength work/conditioning. Say when I deadlifted, squatted on Thursday evening I'd start feeling effect on bike after 100km on Sunday.

I'd be inclined to have something carby after your HIIT session, you don't need to go mad but it certainly proved successful for me and there is some science behind it.

Even now on fasted rides I'll get a call to eat really early sometimes; drink of water and it's gone. I generally don't bring money or any food on rides up to 130km in length. I'll generally finish and not feel hungry for quite a while after.

Best of luck with LEL

As an aside on fat I'd be inclined to eat fats in the following order; mono, saturated, polyunsaturated (treat them like vitamins, a little is all you need). Only apply heat to stable saturated fats like coconut or animal fats like lard.

Long but brilliant discussion here
http://www.westonaprice.org/know-your-fats/precious-yet-perilous/


LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #685 on: 11 January, 2017, 12:23:18 pm »
I'm about halfway through this, interesting read

"Evidence that supports the prescription of low-carbohydrate high-fat diets: a narrative review"
http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/2/133.full

As soon as I saw Noakes name at the top I stopped reading.


Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #686 on: 13 January, 2017, 12:05:03 pm »
All very interesting. Is the "fat adaptation" thing thought to be an on/off phenomenon, or continuous? Tim Noakes, for instance, writes about 25-30g carbs/day being necessary to ensure fat burning and ketogenesis, but without necessarily varying that figure according to body mass (whether ideal or actual).

In other words, can one be "fat adapted" at 29g carbs/day and "carb adapted" at (say) 50g/day? Surely it's continuous? I know of few physiological processes that really are on/off (mast cell degranulation being the only one I can think of off-hand).

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #687 on: 13 January, 2017, 12:42:17 pm »
All very interesting. Is the "fat adaptation" thing thought to be an on/off phenomenon, or continuous? Tim Noakes, for instance, writes about 25-30g carbs/day being necessary to ensure fat burning and ketogenesis, but without necessarily varying that figure according to body mass (whether ideal or actual).

In other words, can one be "fat adapted" at 29g carbs/day and "carb adapted" at (say) 50g/day? Surely it's continuous? I know of few physiological processes that really are on/off (mast cell degranulation being the only one I can think of off-hand).

You body needs ATP to be made in order to provide energy to our cells. It can make ATP from fat, glucose/glycogen, protein, lactate etc.

Your blood carries all those energy sources around, the glucose/glycogen as is and the fat/protein aboard lipoproteins.

Fat adaptation is just swinging the balance is favour of fat; it doesn't stop your body using carbs as energy, just limits it. Diet and fasted training are the two primary methods of forcing the adaptation. A vegan on a really low fat diet will still be able to burn fat just as an eskimo still has the ability to use glucose. It isn't an either/or situation rather a changing of the proportion; for audax cycling shifting the balance to provide the vast majority of energy with fat is the goal of many here.

Australian Olympic coach Dr Louise Bourke has a good podcast on scienceofultra.com.

My own view is that a ketogenic diet is too impractical in the modern world to comply with, along with the down regulation in glucose use and subsequent power loss to make it ideal. Also in the real world of a multi day audax, are you really going to ask a volunteer at 4am in a shelter that the balance of your meal isn't quite right for your diet....

Also many don't do it properly and are often just on a low fat diet anyhow.

The last thing most people should be doing is limiting plants in their diet; a half arsed attempt at a ketogenic diet can do that.

Good podcast here by a non zealot, but with an eye on performance and metabolic flexibility. (skip the first 5 mins where they tell each other how great they are..)


http://sigmanutrition.com/episode86/


This is taken from optimumnutrition4sport.com and is just a basic description of how body makes ATP

Energy Systems

Now for the science bit. I don’t want to go into too much detail, but understanding how your body functions is the key to understanding how food works. So very briefly, here are the different ways your body can produce ATP (i.e. energy)

PhosphoCreatine System: ADP +Cr P –> ATP

This system is used to produce the first 10-15secs of energy that we need for sprints. Obviously, this is not a system that ultra endurance athletes use very often. It doesn’t require glucose or oxygen and it is fuelled through the use of creatine, a natural molecule produced in the body consisting of 3 amino acids.

Anaerobic System (Glycolysis): Glucose –> Pyruvate + ATP + H+

This is a system more familiar to people which burns glucose quickly and coverts it to lactic acid. The result is quick energy, the type needed for high intensity exercise like interval training or hill climbs. This process doesn’t require any oxygen but the trade-off is a large production of hydrogen ions which decrease the pH resulting in muscle fatigue.

Cori-Cycle (The Lactic Acid Cycle): Lactate + ATP –> Glucose

Despite what people think, lactate is not the bad guy. The acid builds up and muscle fatigue/pain is mainly caused by an increase in hydrogen ions (which lowers the pH). The lactate produced in the muscle can be recycled in the liver and converted back to glucose. This glucose can then be shuttled to the muscle and used again to produce energy.

Aerobic System (The Krebs Cycle/Citric Acid Cycle): Glucose + O2 –> CO2 + H2O + ATP

This is the main system that our cells use to produce energy. It’s a series of enzyme controlled chemical reactions that use oxygen to breakdown glucose. The first few steps of this reaction involve converting glucose into a smaller carbon chain intermediate. What’s important to note here is that both fats and proteins can be broken down and converted into this exact same intermediate. In other words, as well as pure glucose, our cells can use fats and proteins to fuel the aerobic system. This is a complicated pathway but here is a very simple diagram to illustrate what I mean



Lipolysis/Beta-Oxidation

Lipolysis is the conversion of triglycerides into glycerol and free fatty acids. These free fatty acids can then be transferred to muscle where they are further broken down through beta-oxidation to prepare them for the Krebs Cycle. The advantage of using fatty acids is 1. The amount we can store is far greater than carbs and 2. They provide roughly twice the amount of energy per gram. So we have lots more of this type of fuel and it produces more energy. The only disadvantage is that because they are much bigger molecules than glucose, they require more oxygen for their combustion. Therefore, fatty acids from the plasma and adipose tissue are oxidised at a higher rate when the intensity is low (i.e. when you can take in more oxygen, i.e. breath more)

ITMG (Intramuscular Triglycerides) Fat Oxidation

So when fats are used to produce energy, they can come from three different locations. 1. Adipose Tissue, where the majority of itis stored 2. Muscle and 3. Blood Plasma. The fat stored in muscle is called Intramuscular Triglycerides. It is this which gives meat its marbled appearance. As ITMG’s are already present in the muscle, transport and delivery is not an issue. Therefore, the ability to use them is increased especially as exercise intensity increases.

Glycolytic Proteins/Protein Oxidation

Amino acids (such as Leucine, Isoleuncine and Valine) can also be converted into Acetly-CoA (the intermediate that both glucose and fatty acids are converted to) and then used in the Krebs Cycle. It is estimated that 5-10% of energy can come from the oxidation of proteins. However, this is not ideal if amino acids are not plentiful as it means that the source of amino acids will be from muscle tissue. This can be reduced by supplying amino acids and increasing the rate of fat oxidation to spare the use of protein.

Glucose Alanine Cycle

Just like the Cori Cycle, where a waste product is converted back into glucose, the same can be done with amino acids. The amino acids Alanine and Glutamine can be used to convert Pyruvate back into Glucose.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #688 on: 13 January, 2017, 01:01:52 pm »
Glycogen is NOT carried in the blood; glucose is.
It is a storage product which exists in muscles and the liver. It is broken down to glucose.
Its branched structure makes it able to release glucose PDQ if needed.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #689 on: 13 January, 2017, 01:04:16 pm »
Thanks Chinaski,

I understand the base science to some degree (at least I think I do). My question was badly phrased - I was asking whether the switch between "traditional" and LCHF diets had been studied in terms of how respiratory quotient changes over a range of carbohydrate intake. Intuitively, would be a relatively easy study to do.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #690 on: 13 January, 2017, 01:17:03 pm »
Thanks Chinaski,

I understand the base science to some degree (at least I think I do). My question was badly phrased - I was asking whether the switch between "traditional" and LCHF diets had been studied in terms of how respiratory quotient changes over a range of carbohydrate intake. Intuitively, would be a relatively easy study to do.

I don't know about studies but I know guys who do fasted rides well north of 100km and don't restrict carbs at all; diet is only one variable in terms of fat adaptation.

Their diet would be low in junk carbs and clean in general but not by any means low carb.

If you get 100 subjects and limit % of carbs in diet I'd expect their bodies would adapt and burn more fat with the lower carb % but if one has time low carb or very low carb isn't essential.

If you limit all foods and fast that's what your body will do anyway and once glucose/glycogen runs out it'll fire up ketosis irrespective of diet

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #691 on: 13 January, 2017, 02:10:08 pm »
There are more and more N=1 experimenters out there these days; men and women experimenting with LCHF and ultra running/triathlon. Many don't focus on being keto - just on limiting unnecessary carbs.

Low carb is glycogen sparing; you should find your metabolism gets shifted more towards fat burning, and away from glycogen dependency, as adaptation continues. This can take a long time - forget any "research" done over three weeks - it can take years.

Low carb for me means eating as I did before; simply without the insulin provoking elements. I have roast lunch on a Sunday, just no tatties or stuffing. I don't eat bread, or anything with sugar. I make exceptions to this when I feel like it - so if I'm on a long ride and fancy crumble & custard, I don't sweat it (although I'll probably have indigestion - but that's another story).

I know LCHF is working because:

I naturally tend toward one or two meals a day, rather than three.
Quite often, I no longer feel "compelled" to the kitchen. Eating is something I do when I have time, and I'm hungry enough.
I can fast for three/four days without any lack of energy. Indeed, by day three I'm often bouncing off the walls; and the mental focus that comes is unreal.

Exercise is fine in this state. Sure, I'd probably suck as an Olympic weight-lifter, or other elite athlete who are totally reliant on anaerobic work - but y'know what, I can deal with that :).

I'm beginning to wonder if the fasted state is in fact our "default" state, from an evolutionary point of view, and being in a fed state is an interruption to that. There are some fairly fundamental systems in our bodies that only come out to play when we're fasted - cellular autophagy, white blood cell recycling and others associated with auto-immunity. We're just not metabolically set up very well for being continuously fed - even before you add in The Demon Sugar.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #692 on: 13 January, 2017, 03:59:26 pm »
I can fast for three/four days without any lack of energy. Indeed, by day three I'm often bouncing off the walls; and the mental focus that comes is unreal.

Do you notice any loss of muscle mass on 3/4 fasts?

I've no problem doing 24hr fasts, but anything longer and I'm usually thinking about all that heavy lifting for 6 months of the year going to waste ::-)


Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #693 on: 13 January, 2017, 04:15:43 pm »
I can fast for three/four days without any lack of energy. Indeed, by day three I'm often bouncing off the walls; and the mental focus that comes is unreal.

Do you notice any loss of muscle mass on 3/4 fasts?

I've no problem doing 24hr fasts, but anything longer and I'm usually thinking about all that heavy lifting for 6 months of the year going to waste ::-)
I haven't done enough longer fasts to have a view on that one yet. From what I've read, loss of lean mass is not huge, and only lasts until ketosis kicks in - so if you're already on a LCHF diet, that's probably quite promptly after starting the fast.

Fasting causes a spike in HGH (amongst others), in readiness for the refeed, so whilst there might be some loss of lean mass, you're well set up to replace it if you do some resistance work in the days following the fast.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #694 on: 13 January, 2017, 06:14:19 pm »
That was an excellent description by china ski and he is right that all exist to varying extents at all times in humans.  However shifting the primary source of energy takes time and significant up and down regulation in the cells which probably takes weeks or months to be sustainable.

I have wondered for a while about the primary purpose of insulin.  if you took our nomadic predecessors then insulin was nothing to do with glucose regulation.  There was so little glucose around for most of the year that you did not need to reduce your blood glucose.  What you did need was a hormone that in summer/early autumn drove every bit of glucose into fat storage.  At that time of year there would be a massive spike in available carbohydrate with berries, seeds, etc as well as honey.  You would not want to waste that moving around but store it as fat for the winter hibernation.

I wonder if insulin had been identified in bears would it be seen in a totally different light?

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #695 on: 13 January, 2017, 07:28:08 pm »
I can fast for three/four days without any lack of energy. Indeed, by day three I'm often bouncing off the walls; and the mental focus that comes is unreal

Funny enough,  that's very similar to the phrases I used to describe how I felt when I once went three days without sleep whilst chasing a stupid project deadline... others included, 'totally out of it' and 'never again'...

Ive been backsliding all over the place on the keto front lately... a combination of stress, boredom (lack of variety in my diet) and winter's demands.

I'm not too convinced about the fasted riding thing, especially riding fixed which demands a certain amount of oomph and squandering of energy, andworry about burning muscle which I find hard enough to come by as it is. It seems to me pointless to fast during the ride only to eat more after. Better to be eating consistently....  replenishment rather than fuel... Also I do like to have some food inside me, especially when its cold; it helps keep me warm.  I never skip breakfast, it may be a daily ritual thing but I feel it helps set me up for the day. Having said this my calorific intake especially during rides is nowhere close to what it was when I was burning carbs, and what I call the day 2 syndrome, a.k.a., starvarama - feedme - munchies - has been cutting in with a vengence lately, probably because of the cold.*

*This post contains only trace elements of science

Auntie Helen

  • 6 Wheels in Germany
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #696 on: 13 January, 2017, 09:28:39 pm »
Twelve days into my LCHF diet and I'm finding it easier than I thought.

What I can't get my head around is not being hungry. Well, sometimes I'm a little bit hungry, but not that empty gnawing hunger I used to have on waking up (fixed with two biscuits and a cuppa tea), or that would have at about 11am at work, or mid-afternoon, or even after a fairly large meal.

Today really brought this home to me. I had my breakfast of scrambled eggs (3 eggs) with a bit of cream, some linseed and some ham. This was at 7am as normal. Then I went to work.

At about midday I had 7-8 nuts from a tin I keep in my desk drawer.

I finished work at 13:00 and went straight from there to the large supermarket in the next town as I had some specific things to get that are only really available there (German supermarkets aren't as good as UK/NL ones). I walked around the supermarket, finding the things I needed, checking out the vegetables etc. It was now about 14:30 and I had had no lunch, nothing except a few nuts since 7am, but I didn't feel hungry and I wasn't buying half the supermarket due to this hunger.

I got home at 15:15 and thought I probably ought to have some lunch although I wasn't hungry, so I had a bit of cucumber, cheese and a feta dip. And that was it. And I wasn't hungry and went out for a cycle ride for an hour.

This lack of hunger is so completely against my normal nature it is bizarre. I tended to always be very specific about making sure I had my meals on time (lunch at 13:00, dinner at 19:30) and I was always hungry before them. But now I just don't feel the need to eat, not even breakfast.

So far so good, although it takes some time to get used to the colour change in the output (I had some special Dutch black cabbage which made surprising colour changes in the toilet bowl, now back to normal).

I have committed to doing this properly for 3 months and then after that to see if I perhaps increase the carbs slightly so I can perhaps have a bit of fruit here and there, but we shall see. I find the dessert options rather limited, although I made some mascarpone/whipping cream mousse that was very tasty with strawberries and blueberries. But that and yoghurt with strawberries seem to be my only dessert options at the moment - I need to investigate further.
My blog on cycling in Germany and eating German cake – http://www.auntiehelen.co.uk


Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #697 on: 13 January, 2017, 10:04:50 pm »
I eat greek yoghurt with nut (usually almond, sometimes cashew) butter for pudding.

And then there's the cheesecake.

Auntie Helen

  • 6 Wheels in Germany
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #698 on: 13 January, 2017, 10:22:33 pm »
Can you share your cheesecake recipe?
My blog on cycling in Germany and eating German cake – http://www.auntiehelen.co.uk


ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #699 on: 13 January, 2017, 11:31:34 pm »
I'm about halfway through this, interesting read

"Evidence that supports the prescription of low-carbohydrate high-fat diets: a narrative review"
http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/2/133.full

As soon as I saw Noakes name at the top I stopped reading.

No surprise there.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens