Author Topic: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?  (Read 198180 times)

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #725 on: 23 February, 2017, 09:51:45 am »
The organsations website hasn't updated its guidance yet though.

Not surprising. Big Food has massively powerful lobbying power, as has Big Pharma; if I were just a bit more paranoid, I'd be convinced they work together to get us sick, then keep us that way.

I recently saw some posts of pictures of meals given to diabetics in hospital - a complete disaster area of carbs  :facepalm:.  The best one was posted by Andreas Eendfeldt, showing a mid-morning snack break at a Diabetes Convention for Drs; a table groaning under the weight of pastries, doughnuts, and cakes. Honestly, you couldn't make this shit up.

Auntie Helen

  • 6 Wheels in Germany
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #726 on: 27 February, 2017, 09:33:31 am »
I'm currently on holiday with my Mum in Tenerife and trying to stay relaxed low carb whilst I am here. Clearly with restaurant food it's harder, plus my Mum fusses about it and i don't want to stress her, so I am trying to make it less noticeable. I have eaten some slices of melon the last two evenings though - I do miss fruit and the strawberries here are ropey.

Today I noticed the latest delight - asymmetrical fat loss on my sagging belly. Left side hangs lower than right, and left hip is more fleshy than right. I don't think it's noticeable when I have clothes on but yet again is a reminder that ageing and overweight bodies continually delight with new issues. Maybe it will even out, maybe it will always be so. Oh well.
My blog on cycling in Germany and eating German cake – http://www.auntiehelen.co.uk


Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #727 on: 27 February, 2017, 02:51:59 pm »
Quote
a table groaning under the weight of pastries, doughnuts, and cakes.

It is always the same in medical events.  beige carbohydrate lunches and snacks.

I now simply take all the ham sandwiches, extract the ham and leave the bread on the side.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #728 on: 28 February, 2017, 09:15:45 pm »
I wouldn't go near that diet, at least not without a monthly cholesterol test.  Being a bit fat* isn't as bad as a stroke.

As an aside, did anyone else look at the groaning table at the beginning of "Dr" Gillian McKeith's "You Are What You Eat", and think, "Yum!"?  ;D

*I can lose weight by eating a bit less crap, e.g. substituting fruit for chocolate.  The energy in/energy out balance is muddled by metabolic rate.  Walking a substantial distance each day (3 miles or so) is a good way to keep stuff burning.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #729 on: 28 February, 2017, 11:31:43 pm »
I wouldn't go near that diet, at least not without a monthly cholesterol test.  Being a bit fat* isn't as bad as a stroke.

A quote from Ancel Keys of all people
"There's no connection whatsoever with cholesterol in food and cholesterol in blood. We have known that all along"

 https://goo.gl/mmLYtz


Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #730 on: 01 March, 2017, 09:01:25 am »
I wouldn't go near that diet, at least not without a monthly cholesterol test.  Being a bit fat* isn't as bad as a stroke.

A quote from Ancel Keys of all people
"There's no connection whatsoever with cholesterol in food and cholesterol in blood. We have known that all along"

 https://goo.gl/mmLYtz
Except they haven't. It is supposition. Very poor 'science'.
That is a problem with medical science, they are dealing with incredibly complex organisms, no two of which are identical or respond in an identical way.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #731 on: 01 March, 2017, 09:32:10 am »
A work colleague had very high cholesterol in his 20s (and an appalling family history of early death from CVD; they rarely made it to 60).  He managed to get his cholesterol down to normal by eating a very low-fat diet; no drugs.  Standard advice is to eat a much lower-fat diet (esp saturated fats) and see if that works, before considering statins.  Anyway, salads and Benecol margarine are cheaper than NHS prescriptions.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #732 on: 01 March, 2017, 10:27:40 am »
I wouldn't go near that diet, at least not without a monthly cholesterol test.  Being a bit fat* isn't as bad as a stroke.

As an aside, did anyone else look at the groaning table at the beginning of "Dr" Gillian McKeith's "You Are What You Eat", and think, "Yum!"?  ;D

*I can lose weight by eating a bit less crap, e.g. substituting fruit for chocolate.  The energy in/energy out balance is muddled by metabolic rate.  Walking a substantial distance each day (3 miles or so) is a good way to keep stuff burning.


Substituting one sugar for another, and then trying to do increased endurance sport to burn them off may well keep the weight of....but it is also increasingly and undeniably resulting in some pretty serious cardiac conditions. 

For me that is my worry and the main reason I want to stay more towards fat burning to power my activities.   The weight loss, hunger control, increased energy and lack of gut problem's during endurance activities are just a massive bonus.

ian

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #733 on: 01 March, 2017, 11:54:53 am »
The problem with all such diets is that people cherry-pick information to suit their choices. Information is unavoidably incomplete, but the consensus amongst dietitians and nutrition scientists based all the available evidence is – as ever – to eat a balanced diet (and yes avoid lots of sugar and lots of fat, but no need to exclude), don't smoke, drink in moderation, do regular aerobic exercise, and avoid wrestling tigers. The final one is very important, since it can undo all the others.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #734 on: 01 March, 2017, 12:09:17 pm »
^^^^ This.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #735 on: 01 March, 2017, 12:27:49 pm »
The problem with all such diets is that people cherry-pick information to suit their choices. Information is unavoidably incomplete, but the consensus amongst dietitians and nutrition scientists based all the available evidence is – as ever – to eat a balanced diet (and yes avoid lots of sugar and lots of fat, but no need to excude), don't smoke, drink in moderation, do regular aerobic exercise, and avoid wrestling tigers. The final one is very important, since it can undo all the others.

This is all completely obvious and valid but I think you miss the point when you use the word "exclude".  Keto and HFLC is not a zero carb/zero sugar diet.   Lets not pretend everyone is capable of eating a balanced diet.   I know I am not and looking at the majority of our population it seems I am not alone.

If I try to eat a traditional western diet and also train I end up putting on weight.  Why?  Because I bloody love sugar and carbs and the more I eat of them the more I want and crave.  In addition to that the more I train, the more sugar I burn and the more I want.

That is not healthy or sustainable and a high fat diet is without any doubt the best course of action for me and millions like me.   For endurance athletes there is an increasing amount of good science to show that a high carb diet, combined with certain genetic types is a very bad combination.   There are a lot of very fit people not making it past 70 in the world of endurance sports.

My diet is more balanced now than it has ever been before.   I still eat all the good stuff and consume sugar and carbs when I need them for recovery or fuel.   I just don't eat the garbage that I was told all my life was good for me.  I don't want to recommend this way of eating for any one else but for me it has been life changing.   I'm 4.5stone down and entered into a marathon in October.   It just seems a really sensible way of eating for endurance athletes to me and makes far more sense than all the traditional fueling wisdom I was taught.


ian

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #736 on: 01 March, 2017, 12:44:55 pm »
Everyone is capable of eating a balanced diet. They either don't to or they're bombarded with information about diet. Don't eat this, don't eat that, eat this, eat that. Etc. Etc. Clean eating. Fasting. Low Carb. Low Fat. Blah blah. No, I'm right, here's a bloke on YouTube or a single scientific paper that proves.

Look, I'm happy for anyone to eat whatever. But I'm against the weirding of what we eat. The subsumption of simple dietary advice into a morass of conflicting information and claims. There's huge industries and careers built around diet. The simple advice gets lost.

I think you'll find that more people over the age 70 aren't endurance athletes than are.

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #737 on: 01 March, 2017, 12:53:32 pm »
"balanced" diet is a very ambiguous term, in my mind the diet i eat is balanced, however another person may have a diet too that is balanced, however very different from mine. sweet carbs are very different too - e.g. three nutella filled croissants with a large latte may give the same amount of calories as a bowl of porridge with berries and banana, but i know which one i'd rather have before a long ride. one of the resolutions i'm sticking to is to stop eating chocolate (or, if i eat it, also have the same or larger amount of berries, to offset the "damage"). it's the abundance and consumption of cheap and refined carbs that's creating a lot of cv and weight problems, nothing wrong with better quality carbs as a part of balanced diet.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #738 on: 01 March, 2017, 12:58:46 pm »
Everyone is capable of eating a balanced diet. They either don't to or they're bombarded with information about diet. Don't eat this, don't eat that, eat this, eat that. Etc. Etc. Clean eating. Fasting. Low Carb. Low Fat. Blah blah. No, I'm right, here's a bloke on YouTube or a single scientific paper that proves.

Look, I'm happy for anyone to eat whatever. But I'm against the weirding of what we eat. The subsumption of simple dietary advice into a morass of conflicting information and claims. There's huge industries and careers built around diet. The simple advice gets lost.

I think you'll find that more people over the age 70 aren't endurance athletes than are.

Is there a bigger industry built around the promotion of High Fat Diets or the promotion of High Carb/High Sugar diets?  I suggest looking at advertising budgets and money spent lobbying governments.   If we are talking about being bombarded with diet information I think we also need to factor in how much we are bombarded with junk food advertising.   They spend that money for a good reason - it makes us eat more crap.

So far it has cost me nothing to do this diet - there is no industry I have funded?   I heard about the premise from world class Ironmen on a podcast and then did further reading.   

I don't buy any weird diets foods - I buy normal, real food.   Im not sure what you think people on a high fat diet are eating exactly? 

If you want to see weird - look at the options available to you if you walk into the average petrol station or local convenience store in the UK when feeling hungry.   That is why people cant eat a balanced diet ...of course they can...but they don't.



hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #739 on: 01 March, 2017, 01:50:06 pm »
The problem with all such diets is that people cherry-pick information to suit their choices. Information is unavoidably incomplete, but the consensus amongst dietitians and nutrition scientists based all the available evidence is – as ever – to eat a balanced diet (and yes avoid lots of sugar and lots of fat, but no need to exclude), don't smoke, drink in moderation, do regular aerobic exercise, and avoid wrestling tigers. The final one is very important, since it can undo all the others.

Indeed!
My enforced sedentary lifestyle is keeping me away from accidents and joint replacements.

I am very healthy for someone so unhealthy....

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #740 on: 01 March, 2017, 02:01:01 pm »
My Ancient Parents eat what they fancy within the constraints of their digestive systems.
They are not endurance athletes.

Dad is constrained by lactose intolerance, low blood sodium and diverticular disease.

I don't think their parents, three of whom lived well into their 90s, ate or avoided anything very special. They kept Kosher, ate plenty though not excessively and enjoyed life.

ian

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #741 on: 01 March, 2017, 02:41:11 pm »
Well, of course there's a huge industry advertising and selling junk food, but I'm not sure the remedy is countering that with more diets, all of which have their own commercial angle, for palaeo through the gluten intolerance, they're all looking for shelf space. Or pushing a new book. Regardless of the merits (and I suspect there are few), the majority of people will have compliance issues with diets and ultimately it leads to the yo-yo of dissatisfaction. Or it gets so complicated they don't even bother. There's the Daily Mail drip of it's-good-for-you-oh-no-it's-not.

There's no significant campaign for eating your greens and going for a jog/swim etc. Complicated messages just confuse and the simple message gets lost.

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #742 on: 01 March, 2017, 03:50:19 pm »
plenty of both anecdotal and statistical evidence that for a T1D, LCHF produces more stable blood sugar readings, better HbA1C profile and fewer diabetic complications.   That's enough for me.

Plus I still eat chocolate - it's just 85% cocoa or more.

Plus I still eat carbs when out exercising, but I'm eating to maintain my BG level, so no contribution to BG rise which is the key thing here. 

Plus  - no tigers in the Fens, unless you count Littleport
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #743 on: 01 March, 2017, 05:20:28 pm »
When I'm ketoing - the Veg:OtherStuff ratio tilts massively in favour of veg, by virtue of deleting one entire group from other side - ie, the starchy stuff. A Standard Western Diet is anything but balanced - it's hugely biased toward carbohydrates - the one macro we don't actually need very much of. So I think I eat a much more balanced diet when I'm ketoing.

However, I don't eat a varied diet - I have pretty much the same stuff week in week out; fboab has to eat other things - my diet is way too boring for her. I mostly get the right nutrients, and what I believe my macros need to be for me to achieve whatever it is I'm out to achieve at any given time (currently, fat loss and bonk-proof endurance cycling).

I've recently found further success in body-recomposition through not eating at all for two days every fortnight. A full 48 hour fast sure does give ketosis a hefty kick - and the consequential boost in mental focus is awesome. There are some (fairly essential) metabolic processes that just don't come out to play if we're in a permanently fed state. Nowt wrong with giving the internals a rest once in a while, and it entirely solves the whole "What shall I have to eat?" quandary.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #744 on: 02 March, 2017, 01:26:55 pm »
I don't think their parents, three of whom lived well into their 90s, ate or avoided anything very special. They kept Kosher, ate plenty though not excessively and enjoyed life.

Never eating anything special in 21st Century and early 20th Century are night and day. It's not a valid comparsion.

The food environment has changed unrecognizably
* less home cooking
* prepared ingredients even when people do cook
* way cheaper food
* an almost uncountable variation of foods high in sugar, fat and low in protein and fibre i.e. junk food.

If you want to bypass a mammal's ability to control bodyfat introduce them to junk food; it'll bypass satiety signaling even when full. Try getting lab rats fat on rat chow and then dry with milk chocolate, ice cream and fried chips, see which happens faster and which are healthy after.

The variety of foods will also encourage over eating.

An obese teenager today in all probability had a disadvantage to a 1900 teenager in that his metabolic dysfunction probably started in the womb if his mother had a crap diet. I remember interviewing midwifes about 12 years ago; when asked the hardest part of their job "the women are just getting bigger and bigger" was typical answer. They loved seeing the Polish girls walk in.

In truth most people who have struggled all their lives with diet always will. 10% loss of body mass appears to be the ceiling for most.

The only chance young generations have is to eat like their great grandparents did, before the damage is done. Given the proliferation of junk food, marketing, misinformation that is an uphill battle.

Focusing on macro, fat good carbs bad and vice versa isn't really helpful; you can build a healthy diet with pretty massive variations in macros for a healthy person. Just eat whole foods with plants dominating plate and your as good as done

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #745 on: 02 March, 2017, 02:17:58 pm »
My grandparents (1898-1999) had all of the 20th century to adopt their food habits, bar the last nine months.
This included two World Wars, hyperinflation in Germany, postwar austerity and subsequent prosperity.
There was almost always some CAEK and a little chocolate in their homes.
Chips seldom featured.
Smothering deep-fried foodstuffs with syrup is obesogenic, unsurprisingly.


"No matter how slow you go, you're still lapping everybody on the couch."

LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #748 on: 21 June, 2017, 07:34:54 pm »
http://www.angry-chef.com/blog/the-natural-alternative-part-1/

Pretty much spot on, the blinkers come on though when it means that people cannot have their tasty bacon and eggs for breakfast.

JennyB

  • Old enough to know better
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #749 on: 22 June, 2017, 09:29:26 am »

Plus  - no tigers in the Fens, unless you count Littleport

But plenty of Fen Tigers;D
Jennifer - Walker of hills