Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?

[Chris S]

and most studies are then biased it seems nowadays by the influence of big food and veganism

Dammit. Tea in the keyboard again.

[whosatthewheel]

I can't think of anything worse than a diet based on fat. Other than some eskimos eating seals, I can't quite figure out whether there is some long term evidence of any benefit. There are certainly long term studies on the detrimental effects of animal fats, saturated fats and transfats.

I have never been fat myself, but I have been overweight by up to 2 stones and what really helped stabilise my weight have been cutting meat and reducing alcohol.

I don't know how each contributed individually, but I would say the alcohol reduction has been minor, as I have never been a heavy drinker, a case of going from 10 units a week down to 4 or 5 (couple of pints a week), whereas cutting meat has been a more significant change.
My meals are largely based on grains, pulses and vegetables. My protein intake would probably horrify most supporters of a "western diet", but I have seen no ill effect, if anything, I am stronger than I used to be.

[ianrobo]

I can't think of anything worse than a diet based on fat. Other than some eskimos eating seals, I can't quite figure out whether there is some long term evidence of any benefit. There are certainly long term studies on the detrimental effects of animal fats, saturated fats and transfats.

I could quote you loads of articles and books to read on this, some think it is a cult science issue I guess.

But in layman's terms Fat for energy is the bodies's preferred energy source. Carbs is used first if available as it is a quick access so for power events etc.

However for us in the Audax world etc we would be mainly riding in our fat burning zones and if you become errficent at these levels (only way to do that is to drop the carbs as a primary food source) then in my example makes massive improvements.

Best example was I did the marmot in 2016 - finished in 11:01 then went Keto, could do 4 hour fasted rides and next year did the Marmotte in 9:02 with no food during the ride.

and the differences int he pictures between the two clear for all to see

[whosatthewheel]

My interest in nutrition is not sport related... I am not particularly fussed about what I eat during an audax 6 times per year... I would like to avoid disease on a daily basis and it seems to me if you want high cholesterol and a life of misery, then high fat diet is the way to go. Of course some will only eat walnuts and mackerel, but I suspect most will fry bacon and eat pie and a lot of cheese

[Craigus]

I can't think of anything worse than a diet based on fat. Other than some eskimos eating seals, I can't quite figure out whether there is some long term evidence of any benefit. There are certainly long term studies on the detrimental effects of animal fats, saturated fats and transfats.

I could quote you loads of articles and books to read on this, some think it is a cult science issue I guess.

But in layman's terms Fat for energy is the bodies's preferred energy source. Carbs is used first if available as it is a quick access so for power events etc.

However for us in the Audax world etc we would be mainly riding in our fat burning zones and if you become errficent at these levels (only way to do that is to drop the carbs as a primary food source) then in my example makes massive improvements.

Best example was I did the marmot in 2016 - finished in 11:01 then went Keto, could do 4 hour fasted rides and next year did the Marmotte in 9:02 with no food during the ride.

and the differences int he pictures between the two clear for all to see

Define that bit for me? Preferred in what way?

Fat burning zones don't really exist either, you burn marginally more fat at lower intensities, but it is so minimal that it's almost irrelevant.

Your Marmotte experience, whilst an interesting anecdote, is pretty useless as an example in this discussion.

Basing your diet on this 'keto' for performance gain is clearly not the answer, nor is your physical overall health going to benefit from it when compared to a balanced diet based around vegetables and whole foods.

[mattc]

My interest in nutrition is not sport related... I am not particularly fussed about what I eat during an audax 6 times per year... I would like to avoid disease on a daily basis and it seems to me if you want high cholesterol and a life of misery, then high fat diet is the way to go. Of course some will only eat walnuts and mackerel, but I suspect most will fry bacon and eat pie and a lot of cheese

I'd rather eat n kJ worth of bacon/cheese than from refined sugar. (Alongside some green stuff - or a LOT of green stuff if I am virtuous enough.)

That is  the (somewhat condensed) point of all this; not "eating just cheese-n-pies is really good for you".

[ianrobo]

My interest in nutrition is not sport related... I am not particularly fussed about what I eat during an audax 6 times per year... I would like to avoid disease on a daily basis and it seems to me if you want high cholesterol and a life of misery, then high fat diet is the way to go. Of course some will only eat walnuts and mackerel, but I suspect most will fry bacon and eat pie and a lot of cheese

Well has Pie is high carbs, nope ... as for cholesterol that is a total myth backed up by outdated science. Read anything by Dave Feldman on that,

shall I post my bloods on here ? which take a year ago after being on veto show perfect ?

[ianrobo]

Define that bit for me? Preferred in what way?

Fat burning zones don't really exist either, you burn marginally more fat at lower intensities, but it is so minimal that it's almost irrelevant.

Your Marmotte experience, whilst an interesting anecdote, is pretty useless as an example in this discussion.

Basing your diet on this 'keto' for performance gain is clearly not the answer, nor is your physical overall health going to benefit from it when compared to a balanced diet based around vegetables and whole foods.

read the FASTER study and shows when fully fat adapted at low to moderate range of intensity you burn fat at a very high level, if not explain how I could do a 200km ride fasted ?

as for mentioning whole foods, there is no better whole food than Meat, totally unprocessed unlike say any wheat based product you care to mention, try and eat wheat raw or unprocessed

[whosatthewheel]

My interest in nutrition is not sport related... I am not particularly fussed about what I eat during an audax 6 times per year... I would like to avoid disease on a daily basis and it seems to me if you want high cholesterol and a life of misery, then high fat diet is the way to go. Of course some will only eat walnuts and mackerel, but I suspect most will fry bacon and eat pie and a lot of cheese

I'd rather eat n kJ worth of bacon/cheese than from refined sugar. (Alongside some green stuff - or a LOT of green stuff if I am virtuous enough.)

That is  the (somewhat condensed) point of all this; not "eating just cheese-n-pies is really good for you".

Yes, probably eating bacon is better than fuelling yourself with full fat coke on the day of your brevet, but as a habit I am not even sure that is the case. Glycemic index is an issue, but overall cholesterol is a bigger issue and it's more likely that you get type 2 diabetes out of being obese than out of screwing your insulin levels on a daily basis... there are many ways of becoming obese, some rely on sugar, some rely on fat.

I don't really know anyone who eats refined sugar, so I can't comment on that.

What I say is that there is nothing wrong at all in a diet largely based on starch and fiber. There are plenty of long living populations who in essence eat just that (rice or else and vegetables). Long living populations eating mainly animal proteins and fats are only long living because of a large intervention of medicine... I'd like to see how the French Paradox fares with a "Tanzanian access to health care"...

[ianrobo]

My interest in nutrition is not sport related... I am not particularly fussed about what I eat during an audax 6 times per year... I would like to avoid disease on a daily basis and it seems to me if you want high cholesterol and a life of misery, then high fat diet is the way to go. Of course some will only eat walnuts and mackerel, but I suspect most will fry bacon and eat pie and a lot of cheese

I'd rather eat n kJ worth of bacon/cheese than from refined sugar. (Alongside some green stuff - or a LOT of green stuff if I am virtuous enough.)

That is  the (somewhat condensed) point of all this; not "eating just cheese-n-pies is really good for you".

Yes, probably eating bacon is better than fuelling yourself with full fat coke on the day of your brevet, but as a habit I am not even sure that is the case. Glycemic index is an issue, but overall cholesterol is a bigger issue and it's more likely that you get type 2 diabetes out of being obese than out of screwing your insulin levels on a daily basis... there are many ways of becoming obese, some rely on sugar, some rely on fat.

I don't really know anyone who eats refined sugar, so I can't comment on that.

What I say is that there is nothing wrong at all in a diet largely based on starch and fiber. There are plenty of long living populations who in essence eat just that (rice or else and vegetables). Long living populations eating mainly animal proteins and fats are only long living because of a large intervention of medicine... I'd like to see how the French Paradox fares with a "Tanzanian access to health care"...

you know of no one who eats refined sugar ? not a single person as most processed foods have it in ....

and why fibre ? I eat prob less than 10grams a day and I have never been so regular or fine in that area, in fact on rides as a carb burner I used to get awful stomach issues, no longer.

and you are aware of satiety levels, you can not eat fat past feeling full, you can with carbs. and I believe as many do now in the insulin model of being fat and fat does not cause T2D but the other way round, have you checked out Robert Lustig's video's on sugar etc. Are you aware that carb's turn into sugar in your body, in essence they are no different from eating 200 calories of wheat and 200 calories of sugar.

[Craigus]

Define that bit for me? Preferred in what way?

Fat burning zones don't really exist either, you burn marginally more fat at lower intensities, but it is so minimal that it's almost irrelevant.

Your Marmotte experience, whilst an interesting anecdote, is pretty useless as an example in this discussion.

Basing your diet on this 'keto' for performance gain is clearly not the answer, nor is your physical overall health going to benefit from it when compared to a balanced diet based around vegetables and whole foods.

read the FASTER study and shows when fully fat adapted at low to moderate range of intensity you burn fat at a very high level, if not explain how I could do a 200km ride fasted ?

as for mentioning whole foods, there is no better whole food than Meat, totally unprocessed unlike say any wheat based product you care to mention, try and eat wheat raw or unprocessed

I really can't be bothered to go into this, I've done it in the past on multiple forums. There is so much misinformation available today about nutrition you can always find a counter argument to anything.

Keto is no different to any other fad diet. Atkins, fasting, whatever. Diets usually work because they give people a framework to reduce the amount they consume and think about what they are eating. The diet isn't what gives people success, it is merely the vehicle for changing eating habits. They give people something to latch onto and often an identity (see: Vegan).

You cannot do better than a balanced diet.

[Ian H]

You cannot do better than a balanced diet.

Indeed.  Here's a link to yer actual expert advice:  https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/should-you-try-the-keto-diet

[Auntie Helen]

I was properly Keto from January to April this year. I have to say, I have never felt better in myself, it was wonderful to not spend the whole time thinking about when I would have my next meal, I lost 11kg...

Unfortunately Keto is very hard to stick to, mainly because of the lack of desserts (I do like dessert!). I got very good at various Keto cakes and biscuits as treats, but they just ain't the same as carby versions.

We still eat low carb but have far too many carbs in the day so the hunger is back again. I should try to cut back a bit again, but it's tough when my colleague brings cake into work most days! At least breakfast, lunch and evening meal are low carb, it's just the snacks that are the problem!

I hope we can reduce the carbs a bit more next year as I really did feel brilliant in my body.

[whosatthewheel]

My interest in nutrition is not sport related... I am not particularly fussed about what I eat during an audax 6 times per year... I would like to avoid disease on a daily basis and it seems to me if you want high cholesterol and a life of misery, then high fat diet is the way to go. Of course some will only eat walnuts and mackerel, but I suspect most will fry bacon and eat pie and a lot of cheese

I'd rather eat n kJ worth of bacon/cheese than from refined sugar. (Alongside some green stuff - or a LOT of green stuff if I am virtuous enough.)

That is  the (somewhat condensed) point of all this; not "eating just cheese-n-pies is really good for you".

Yes, probably eating bacon is better than fuelling yourself with full fat coke on the day of your brevet, but as a habit I am not even sure that is the case. Glycemic index is an issue, but overall cholesterol is a bigger issue and it's more likely that you get type 2 diabetes out of being obese than out of screwing your insulin levels on a daily basis... there are many ways of becoming obese, some rely on sugar, some rely on fat.

I don't really know anyone who eats refined sugar, so I can't comment on that.

What I say is that there is nothing wrong at all in a diet largely based on starch and fiber. There are plenty of long living populations who in essence eat just that (rice or else and vegetables). Long living populations eating mainly animal proteins and fats are only long living because of a large intervention of medicine... I'd like to see how the French Paradox fares with a "Tanzanian access to health care"...

you know of no one who eats refined sugar ? not a single person as most processed foods have it in ....

and why fibre ? I eat prob less than 10grams a day and I have never been so regular or fine in that area, in fact on rides as a carb burner I used to get awful stomach issues, no longer.

and you are aware of satiety levels, you can not eat fat past feeling full, you can with carbs. and I believe as many do now in the insulin model of being fat and fat does not cause T2D but the other way round, have you checked out Robert Lustig's video's on sugar etc. Are you aware that carb's turn into sugar in your body, in essence they are no different from eating 200 calories of wheat and 200 calories of sugar.

Clearly you have done a lot of investigations and keep quoting names I have never heard before. I simply stick to the guidelines of NHS and WHO, which might be boring and dated, but are based on solid science... so try to keep a low cholesterol, have reduced salt and steer clear of known carcinogenic... like bacon for instance.

It seems to work for me, in the sense that I no longer have weight oscillations and have reduced cholesterol and blood pressure to within the guidelines. If it didn't work, I too might have tried some magic potion from the web 

[ianrobo]

Clearly you have done a lot of investigations and keep quoting names I have never heard before. I simply stick to the guidelines of NHS and WHO, which might be boring and dated, but are based on solid science... so try to keep a low cholesterol, have reduced salt and steer clear of known carcinogenic... like bacon for instance.

It seems to work for me, in the sense that I no longer have weight oscillations and have reduced cholesterol and blood pressure to within the guidelines. If it didn't work, I too might have tried some magic potion from the web 

People should do what they like and yes I spent a month researching veto, reading books etc before deciding to do it. And where I really disagree is that WHO PHE and others are the proper sources. IMHO they are all compromised by various factions, biog food, Vegan etc ...

So good for you, if you found something you believe works for you, that's great ! However I get angry when you say studies etc when if you quoted one I could tear it apart within a few minutes on various grounds, not least most done on recall of food diaries which are notoriously unreliable. 

[ianrobo]

I hope we can reduce the carbs a bit more next year as I really did feel brilliant in my body.

same here, I am defo low carb but not really keto .. so after xmas I will be going full on Keto again for my years prep ...

[whosatthewheel]

And where I really disagree is that WHO PHE and others are the proper sources. IMHO they are all compromised by various factions, biog food, Vegan etc ...

... that sounds a bit conspiracy theory to be honest. I think WHO are pretty radical when they say processed meat IS carcinogenic, probably more radical than some guys on youtube...

[ianrobo]

And where I really disagree is that WHO PHE and others are the proper sources. IMHO they are all compromised by various factions, biog food, Vegan etc ...

... that sounds a bit conspiracy theory to be honest. I think WHO are pretty radical when they say processed meat IS carcinogenic, probably more radical than some guys on youtube...

No it is a CT as the head of WHO is a vegan and you say meat causes cancer, can you show me the science of that

[Ian H]

...you say meat causes cancer, can you show me the science of that

He didn't say exactly that. 

https://www.nhs.uk/news/cancer/processed-meat-causes-cancer-warns-who-report/

[ianrobo]

...you say meat causes cancer, can you show me the science of that

He didn't say exactly that. 

https://www.nhs.uk/news/cancer/processed-meat-causes-cancer-warns-who-report/

That’s the report I meant, firstly says processed meat and then was on a correlation report not causation. Some say nitrates but many veggies contain that and the food studies as I said based on recall diaries

[whosatthewheel]

...you say meat causes cancer, can you show me the science of that

He didn't say exactly that. 

https://www.nhs.uk/news/cancer/processed-meat-causes-cancer-warns-who-report/

That’s the report I meant, firstly says processed meat and then was on a correlation report not causation. Some say nitrates but many veggies contain that and the food studies as I said based on recall diaries

Processed meat, that's what I said.

The evidence is deemed to be of the same quality as evidence on asbestos and smoke... unless of course there is a conspiracy...

It's actually the nitrites rather than the nitrates to be carcinogenic, small point but often cause of misinterpretation, just like yours...

Nitrite is NO2-
Nitrate is NO3-

Nitrites react with amines in your gut to form nitrosoamines, which are the actual carcinogenic molecules.

This science was known in the 1970s... problem is, the alternative is to NOT use nitrites in processed meats and get botulism instead... grim option if you ask me

[Ian H]

This science was known in the 1970s... problem is, the alternative is to NOT use nitrites in processed meats and get botulism instead... grim option if you ask me

Yeah, but if you don't like the science, there's always some plausible-sounding person on Youtube.

[ian]

Actually, there are alternatives to nitrites in preserved meats (you can buy nitrite-free preserved meats). To be honest, to have a significantly elevated risk of cancer as an individual, you'd probably have to eat a lot of preserved meats, which means you likely have a poor diet anyway, hence a lot of confounding risk factors. Risk evidence is usually poorly presented (a small percentage increase in the risk of something that only has a small percentage prevalence doesn't make a big percentage of risk etc.)

I don't, sadly, think that there's a big conspiracy to foist balanced diets on people. The Radical Spinach Front and the Provision Brocolli Faction only exist in my head. The opposite is unfortunately true. I suspect any radically unbalanced diet will eventually entail problems, excess carbs on the pancreas, fat on the cardiovascular system, and protein on the liver and kidneys.

[whosatthewheel]

Actually, there are alternatives to nitrites in preserved meats (you can buy nitrite-free preserved meats). To be honest, to have a significantly elevated risk of cancer as an individual, you'd probably have to eat a lot of preserved meats, which means you likely have a poor diet anyway, hence a lot of confounding risk factors.

When I ate bacon, I used to buy nitrite free from The Fruit Pig Company, although it wasn't clear what they used instead, in order to avoid colonies of clostridium botulinum.
I appreciate the risk is relatively small, but my anecdotal evidence on the topic is quite compelling. I come from an area in northern Italy where many people used to make their own salami... the incidence of bowel cancer (among other cancers of the digestive system) is huge.

The funniest thing is that many blame the plume of radioactive dust from Chernobyl for that. People would go a long way to deny the most obvious evidence...

[hellymedic]

I don't, sadly, think that there's a big conspiracy to foist balanced diets on people. The Radical Spinach Front and the Provision Brocolli Faction only exist in my head. The opposite is unfortunately true. I suspect any radically unbalanced diet will eventually entail problems, excess carbs on the pancreas, fat on the cardiovascular system, and protein on the liver and kidneys.

Too true!
I am finding it very hard to resist cakes, pies and biscuits when they are on Special Offer. I get tempted when things are 'only £1'

Though my shopping is not weighed down by these treats, it would be SO easy to buy and eat LOTS more.