Author Topic: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?  (Read 201706 times)

ian

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #875 on: 26 November, 2018, 06:51:33 pm »
Actually, there are alternatives to nitrites in preserved meats (you can buy nitrite-free preserved meats). To be honest, to have a significantly elevated risk of cancer as an individual, you'd probably have to eat a lot of preserved meats, which means you likely have a poor diet anyway, hence a lot of confounding risk factors.

When I ate bacon, I used to buy nitrite free from The Fruit Pig Company, although it wasn't clear what they used instead, in order to avoid colonies of clostridium botulinum.
I appreciate the risk is relatively small, but my anecdotal evidence on the topic is quite compelling. I come from an area in northern Italy where many people used to make their own salami... the incidence of bowel cancer (among other cancers of the digestive system) is huge.

The funniest thing is that many blame the plume of radioactive dust from Chernobyl for that. People would go a long way to deny the most obvious evidence...

Oh, there's certainly a known risk factor, but generally, unless you're habitually eating a lot of preserved meat, it's not a big threat. Nitrite levels have been lowered significantly by successive legislation (which obviously won't apply to home-made salami). What we often neglect when there's a OMG! Cancer! story is that we remove an ingredient with a known risk and replace it with one that's often an unknown risk. The occasional bacon sandwich or chorizo in a Spanish stew isn't going to have a significant impact on your risk of cancer. Nitrite is hard to replace, I think alternatives are usually large quantities of ascorbate and colouring agents. I'm minded again towards balance. Chances are the positive effects of eating a large amount of fruit, veg, and unprocessed foods will far outweigh an occasional round of bacon sandwiches.

Criminalizing any food group doesn't make a lot of sense, though it seems to be the foundation of many diets. Yes, you can find a study to support any dietary choice, but dietary advice has been consistent and straightforward for many decades. It is alas not sexy, it doesn't promise to change your life in seven days, and probably won't get you a book deal.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
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Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #876 on: 26 November, 2018, 07:29:07 pm »

I don't really know anyone who eats refined sugar, so I can't comment on that.
Really?? It's in pretty much all processed food, and it's the main ingredient of that white powder people put in their tea-n-coffee. (Do you know any real people?? )


Quote
Long living populations eating mainly animal proteins and fats are only long living because of a large intervention of medicine.
What are you talking about now?? No-one here is suggesting a boycott on vegetables!

What next: "Silly vegetarians - living off toffee and chips. They should stick to a balanced diet!"
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

simonp

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #877 on: 26 November, 2018, 09:07:23 pm »
I don't often bake a cake, but when I do, it certainly has refined sugar in it.

Last night's effort: 200g butter, 200g sugar, 200g flour, 4 eggs, and about 500g of apples.

Quite a lot of sugar in there and much of what isn't is refined carbs in the flour.

In the US diet, kind of food is the number 1 source of calories. ("Grain based desserts").

I'd like to know which dietary advice the Americans are following that says "let them eat cake".

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #878 on: 26 November, 2018, 09:17:40 pm »
[OT] 'Pound' cake with apples - very nice!

Assume apples are 10% sugar so around 50g sugar there, as well as 400g other carbs.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #879 on: 26 November, 2018, 09:51:56 pm »
I don't often bake a cake, but when I do, it certainly has refined sugar in it.

Last night's effort: 200g butter, 200g sugar, 200g flour, 4 eggs, and about 500g of apples.

Quite a lot of sugar in there and much of what isn't is refined carbs in the flour.

In the US diet, kind of food is the number 1 source of calories. ("Grain based desserts").

I'd like to know which dietary advice the Americans are following that says "let them eat cake".

Also an hell of a lot of sugar in those apples, natural sugar is no different from refined 

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #880 on: 26 November, 2018, 10:02:36 pm »
I don't often bake a cake, but when I do, it certainly has refined sugar in it.

Last night's effort: 200g butter, 200g sugar, 200g flour, 4 eggs, and about 500g of apples.

Quite a lot of sugar in there and much of what isn't is refined carbs in the flour.

In the US diet, kind of food is the number 1 source of calories. ("Grain based desserts").

I'd like to know which dietary advice the Americans are following that says "let them eat cake".

Also an hell of a lot of sugar in those apples, natural sugar is no different from refined
[/b]

Quote
Apples do contain sugar, but much of the sugar found in apples is fructose.

When fructose is consumed in a whole fruit, it has very little effect on blood sugar levels (7).

Also, the fiber in apples slows down the digestion and absorption of sugar. This means sugar enters the bloodstream slowly and doesn't rapidly raise blood sugar levels (4).

Moreover, polyphenols, which are plant compounds found in apples, also slow down the digestion of carbs and lower blood sugar levels (8).

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #881 on: 26 November, 2018, 10:11:28 pm »

Also an hell of a lot of sugar in those apples, natural sugar is no different from refined

Don't start with that nonsense. Someone mentioned something equally stupid at work the other day with regards to me eating a banana comparing it to a Mars bar and I just laughed and left the conversation.

I don't know anyone who has gotten fat from eating fruit.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #882 on: 26 November, 2018, 11:24:34 pm »

Also an hell of a lot of sugar in those apples, natural sugar is no different from refined

Don't start with that nonsense. Someone mentioned something equally stupid at work the other day with regards to me eating a banana comparing it to a Mars bar and I just laughed and left the conversation.

I don't know anyone who has gotten fat from eating fruit.

Whole fruit is around 10g per portion and most folk can't stomach more than around 300g fresh fruit in one sitting (=~30g sugar 2-3 apples) so it's difficult to down fattening quantities. Juice the fruit and drink it like/instead of water and you're onto a different game and downing unhealthy amounts of sugar is easy.

whosatthewheel

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #883 on: 27 November, 2018, 06:12:56 am »

I don't really know anyone who eats refined sugar, so I can't comment on that.
Really?? It's in pretty much all processed food, and it's the main ingredient of that white powder people put in their tea-n-coffee. (Do you know any real people?? )


Quote
Long living populations eating mainly animal proteins and fats are only long living because of a large intervention of medicine.
What are you talking about now?? No-one here is suggesting a boycott on vegetables!

What next: "Silly vegetarians - living off toffee and chips. They should stick to a balanced diet!"

Well, you were talking about eating refined sugar and I meant just that. Sugar is in most sweet foods... what can I say? At least it is not a known carcinogenic and if it's bad for kids it's not really something that concerns me

whosatthewheel

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #884 on: 27 November, 2018, 07:27:08 am »

Oh, there's certainly a known risk factor, but generally, unless you're habitually eating a lot of preserved meat, it's not a big threat.


But that's the point...

I would say Joe average eats processed meat containing nitrites on a daily basis... whether it's the ham in a sandwich at lunch, or it's the ballotine of chicken wrapped in Parma ham as seen on Masterchef, or the cooked breakfast, or the sliced turkey sandwich, or the pepperoni pizza or the diced pancetta to add flavour to your cabbage or your carbonara dish... In an average Supermarket, there is an entire refrigerated aisle of processed meat... plus another refrigerated aisle of ready meals, many of which contain processed meat, plus some triangular sandwiches which also contain processed meat...  someone must buy the stuff.

I have never been one to center a meal around meat, but I used to consume processed meat most days in a form or another. A little, rather than a lot, but consistently. I would say I was below average

ian

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #885 on: 27 November, 2018, 10:01:26 am »
But still, it's quantity and not frequency. I think the risk is small and compared to other factors, like poor diet in general, negligible. Again, it flows into the schema of binary dietary advice that weirds food – everything must be good or bad.

Eating cake is fine. Eating it every day less so. The idea of toffee and chips is certainly intriguing but perhaps isn't to be advised. I'm pretty sure somewhere in the American South they have deep-fried bacon toffee. They have bacon everything. Sprinkled on a bottomless bowl of fries...


whosatthewheel

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #886 on: 27 November, 2018, 10:10:14 am »
I'm pretty sure somewhere in the American South they have deep-fried bacon toffee. They have bacon everything. Sprinkled on a bottomless bowl of fries...

They also have the highest rate of diabetes, heart disease and bowel cancer in the western world... west aside, probably only bettered by the Vodka guzzling coutries.

I don't share your optimism on the "low risk" associated with processed meat

Anyway, back to ketogenic... I am not so sure we evolved as "fat eaters", our ancestors (and by that I mean apes rather than Neanderthals) have a diet largely based on sugars (simple and complex) and fibre and our digestive system is not at all dissimilar to that of a chimp BUT a lot different to that of rodents (as an example of fat eaters) or big cats (as an example of pure meat eaters)

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #887 on: 27 November, 2018, 10:29:26 am »
Well, you were talking about eating refined sugar and I meant just that. Sugar is in most sweet foods... what can I say? At least it is not a known carcinogenic and if it's bad for kids it's not really something that concerns me

But it is carcinogenic. According to their latest advertising campaign Cancer Research UK think Obesity is the second largest preventable cause of cancer. I loathe their wording- it's not that obesity causes cancer, but the things that make you fat also give you cancer. And a lot of that is sugar.

whosatthewheel

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #888 on: 27 November, 2018, 10:35:36 am »
Well, you were talking about eating refined sugar and I meant just that. Sugar is in most sweet foods... what can I say? At least it is not a known carcinogenic and if it's bad for kids it's not really something that concerns me

But it is carcinogenic. According to their latest advertising campaign Cancer Research UK think Obesity is the second largest preventable cause of cancer. I loathe their wording- it's not that obesity causes cancer, but the things that make you fat also give you cancer. And a lot of that is sugar.

Yes, but indirectly... I could eat a lot of cake because I need 5000 KCal a day to support my training and there is no direct link to cancer there. If I was to eat a lot of ham and bacon to make up the same calories intake, there would be a DIRECT link to cancer.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying cake is good nutrition, but on balance is probably better nutrition than doner kebab

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #889 on: 27 November, 2018, 10:44:40 am »
Quote from: ian

Eating cake is fine. Eating it every day less so. The idea of toffee and chips is certainly intriguing but perhaps isn't to be advised. I'm pretty sure somewhere in the American South they have deep-fried bacon toffee. They have bacon everything. Sprinkled on a bottomless bowl of fries...

Yep all cooked in seed oils (check out impact of too omega 6 ) and then washed down with litres of sugary drinks and then people wonder why the South has such an obesity issue

ian

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #890 on: 27 November, 2018, 11:44:30 am »
I'm pretty sure somewhere in the American South they have deep-fried bacon toffee. They have bacon everything. Sprinkled on a bottomless bowl of fries...

They also have the highest rate of diabetes, heart disease and bowel cancer in the western world... west aside, probably only bettered by the Vodka guzzling coutries.

I don't share your optimism on the "low risk" associated with processed meat

Anyway, back to ketogenic... I am not so sure we evolved as "fat eaters", our ancestors (and by that I mean apes rather than Neanderthals) have a diet largely based on sugars (simple and complex) and fibre and our digestive system is not at all dissimilar to that of a chimp BUT a lot different to that of rodents (as an example of fat eaters) or big cats (as an example of pure meat eaters)

Humans are omnivorous, as such we do best eating what we can find. We don't have the adaptions to digest large amount of fibrous vegetable matter or to handle large amounts of protein. We certainly wouldn't have had the opportunity for large amount of fats or meat, the problem with animals is that they run away, catching them is energy expensive (and as mentioned, we're not very good at digesting the result).

Humans have, with few exceptions, got the majority of their calories from unrefined carbs (grains, fruit, starchy veg) for as long as we know, that's probably why we started farming grains. It's easier to catch a potato than a tiger, and you're less likely to be eaten by a tiger if you don't spend your day in the middle of a field munching grass.

Anyway, eating large amounts of fat is well-established to have adverse consequences for cardiovascular health. But like anything, fats as part of a balanced diet are fine. Of course, the fats-are-bad narrative drove the entire low-calorie market, which primarily replaced modest amounts of fat (yes, yes, bacon butter, also a thing) with less modest amounts of sugar and salt.

Meanwhile, on the subject of bacon toffee fries.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #891 on: 27 November, 2018, 02:21:44 pm »
Slightly OT- Storable carbs gave us literacy and culture. Hunter-gatherers only sit down to chat, draw, read and write until the next meal...

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #892 on: 27 November, 2018, 02:28:05 pm »

Anyway, eating large amounts of fat is well-established to have adverse consequences for cardiovascular health.

This keeps getting thrown out, can you please show me the metabolic science that backs this up ?

I can guide you proper science with metabolic pathways that states this, can you do the same ?

This is from Wiki and of course I can show you keto articles saying the same - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatty_acid_metabolism fat does not become fat.

A calorie is not a calorie - See Robert Lustig easy to understand Youtube articles using proper science

Remember we were once told to stop eating so many eggs as they were large cholesterol foods and that would cause us heart attacks, well that advice has been dropped as eating it does not mean it gets stored as that.



mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #893 on: 27 November, 2018, 02:34:01 pm »
... and if you eat a "large enough amount" of anything it will be bad for you!

Subbing nuts/cheese calories for the bread ones won't by itself give you dangerous amounts of fat.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

whosatthewheel

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #894 on: 27 November, 2018, 02:54:05 pm »

Anyway, eating large amounts of fat is well-established to have adverse consequences for cardiovascular health.

This keeps getting thrown out, can you please show me the metabolic science that backs this up ?

I can guide you proper science with metabolic pathways that states this, can you do the same ?

This is from Wiki and of course I can show you keto articles saying the same - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatty_acid_metabolism fat does not become fat.

A calorie is not a calorie - See Robert Lustig easy to understand Youtube articles using proper science

Remember we were once told to stop eating so many eggs as they were large cholesterol foods and that would cause us heart attacks, well that advice has been dropped as eating it does not mean it gets stored as that.

Evaluating long term damage, based on a metabolic pathway is not possible. It's not the way science works.

In engineering terms, it would be a bit like assessing metal fatigue with a stress/strain test

The majority of science out there points towards saturated fat as a bad thing, then of course there are voices saying the exact opposite. If you want to believe the minority, you can of course do so.
Saturated fat is more common in animal fat, but there is quite a few even in non animal fat, most notably in things like coconut and palm oil.

Anyway, if eating fat works for you, all is well... long term you might be a winner or you might not, time will tell.


Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #895 on: 27 November, 2018, 02:54:19 pm »
... and if you eat a "large enough amount" of anything it will be bad for you!

Subbing nuts/cheese calories for the bread ones won't by itself give you dangerous amounts of fat.

Totally, but the Fasting thread is over there -->

 :)

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #896 on: 27 November, 2018, 04:05:42 pm »


This keeps getting thrown out,

Well, not quite.  A certain amount of healthy scepticism is needed for all baldly simple statements like that.
https://www.nhs.uk/news/heart-and-lungs/saturated-fats-and-heart-disease-link-unproven/

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #897 on: 28 November, 2018, 09:44:33 am »
Slightly OT- Storable carbs gave us literacy and culture. Hunter-gatherers only sit down to chat, draw, read and write until the next meal...
They also gave us wars, famines, plagues- larger families, larger settlements and higher infant mortality. A societal boom-bust.
The big winner in farming is wheat and grasses- cereals were a tiny part of the biosphere and look what we did with them.

ian

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #898 on: 28 November, 2018, 09:47:14 am »

Anyway, eating large amounts of fat is well-established to have adverse consequences for cardiovascular health.

This keeps getting thrown out, can you please show me the metabolic science that backs this up ?

I can guide you proper science with metabolic pathways that states this, can you do the same ?

This is from Wiki and of course I can show you keto articles saying the same - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatty_acid_metabolism fat does not become fat.

A calorie is not a calorie - See Robert Lustig easy to understand Youtube articles using proper science

Remember we were once told to stop eating so many eggs as they were large cholesterol foods and that would cause us heart attacks, well that advice has been dropped as eating it does not mean it gets stored as that.

It's a lot more complicated than that, of course, there is no one thing that is 'fat', or even a 'saturated fat', there's a vast range of substances that are fats, and of course, will be processed by the body in different ways, and each and every one will be involved in a range of interactions. Generally advice backed up a large number of studies is that high levels of saturated fats have negative outcomes. I'd probably add the caveat the high fat diets are far more likely to generally poor and thus arrayed with confounders that are difficult to always remove. People who live off fried chicken probably don't live in a large detached house in suburbia, shop at Waitrose and have a gym membership.

But this is my point really, you're picking bits of science and commentary that fit your belief. This is how food gets weirded and how we lose track of the simple advice (eat a balanced diet, lots of fruit and veg, avoid processed foods, and do some exercise) and end up with the binary bad vs. good for every food group and product therein, which of course, spawns diets and books etc. and generates a large industry.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #899 on: 28 November, 2018, 10:51:35 am »
Just remind me of the three macro nutrients we do not need to eat as we produce it ourselves to live ?