Author Topic: Old close clearance frame with M/G eyes....Hmmmm  (Read 1627 times)

Old close clearance frame with M/G eyes....Hmmmm
« on: 07 December, 2020, 12:35:16 pm »
I've been after an old steel frame with a 130 OLN end and mudguard eyes
Yesterday I picked up an almost complete 90s Giant Speeder.  Just the sort of thing I wanted. But it's clearances are tight even though it has 'proper' mudguard eyes?
Now I've no tyres or mudguards yet so can't fiddle, but has anyone a frame like this?
My blog.... www.smilerbiker.blogspot.co.uk

'Pick it up and run'

Re: Old close clearance frame with M/G eyes....Hmmmm
« Reply #1 on: 07 December, 2020, 12:59:44 pm »
It depends on what  how you define "clearances are tight" and what tyre size you're using.

In the 70s, racing frames used "standard" reach (Campagnolo) brakes which were 52mm from pivot to the centre of the brake shoe slot/rim.

By the 80s, close clearance frames used shallow drop/reach brakes (Campagnolo "piccolo/shallow" 47mm reach). Now called standard reach. You can fit mudguards with a 23mm tyre quite comfortably.

I guess winter/training frames were cheaper to manufacture just by using heavier tubing and adding mudguard eyes instead of doing that and changing geometries.





Re: Old close clearance frame with M/G eyes....Hmmmm
« Reply #2 on: 07 December, 2020, 02:09:40 pm »
^^^^ That's pretty well what I have. I guess then 23c was considered the new kid on the block.
I'll give it a punt. Cheers
 
My blog.... www.smilerbiker.blogspot.co.uk

'Pick it up and run'

Re: Old close clearance frame with M/G eyes....Hmmmm
« Reply #3 on: 07 December, 2020, 04:24:04 pm »
My 90’s frame will also take 23c tyres and mudguards comfortably but not 25c
I am often asked, what does YOAV stand for? It stands for Yoav On A Velo

Re: Old close clearance frame with M/G eyes....Hmmmm
« Reply #4 on: 07 December, 2020, 09:00:56 pm »
Campag launched their 'piccolo' brake in the early 1970s. There had been short reach brakes before then, but the others didn't have a major impact on the 'average road racing bike' but the campag brake did.  For about a decade they made 'standard reach'' and 'piccolo' brakes in most of their groupsets but then they discontinued the (longer) standard reach brakes, at first in the more expensive groupsets, and later in all of them. Shimano likewise made both short reach brakes and longer 'standard' reach brakes for most groupsets in the 1980s (but not all) and by the time dual pivot brakes came in, what had been 'standard reach' brakes a decade before were now referred to as ''long reach' and what had been 'piccolo' or 'short reach' were now referred to as 'standard reach'. Indeed they were the only ones you could get in many groupsets, typically with a maximum reach of 49-50mm.  If you wanted a longer brake than that in a good groupset, it had to be shimano and it was usually a 'non-series' part, hence BR-R450 and BR-R650 brakes.

So the assumption appeared to be that if you were a keen racer you would want to have the option to fit campag brakes on your training bike (even though they appeared to have lost their minds in some respects and were no longer making parts that were actually practical, or sometimes worked at all) and that this would be more important to the average rider than the mere matter of mudguard clearance and tyre section width. So for quite a few years training bikes and some others (eg like the Mercian KOM model) came with ~50mm brake drops and this would allow 23mm tyres and mudguards, but not 25s (real 25s that is) and mudguards, not safely anyway.

In recent years there has been a little softening of this approach and many current so-called 'standard' brakes have 51-52mm brake drop which doesn't sound like much but may (for example, if I was stupid enough to want to do such a thing) allow me to fit modern brakes onto my 1978 SBDU racing frame, which was built for 52mm brake drops.

Anyway the mere presence of mudguard eyes on a  frame does not mean that there will definitely be clearance for tyres over 23mm and mudguards, not on a frameset made from about 1980 onwards. It is a very common problem.  FWIW my ~1978 Peugeot PY10 (a dyed in the wool race bike if ever there was one) has bigger clearances than many training bikes made a decade later.... ::-)

BTW the Giant in the photos above appears to have reasonably generous mudguard clearances, and probably has a brake drop of about 50-55mm.

cheers

Re: Old close clearance frame with M/G eyes....Hmmmm
« Reply #5 on: 07 December, 2020, 11:45:23 pm »
Looking at that photo the point which I think might give problems would be the clearance between the wheel and the seat tube. Am I not seeing right or does it have sloping rear ends?
There was a phase in the early 90's where some makers (Peugeot) fitted mudguard eyes to frames that took 19mm tyres (and on the frames but not on the forks!)

My Gitane doesn't have guard eyes but the geometry is quite slack. Even so with Raceblades fitted I have to mount the dt cable adjusters upside down to avoid fouling on the front guard.

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Old close clearance frame with M/G eyes....Hmmmm
« Reply #6 on: 08 December, 2020, 12:18:36 am »
my retro (early 90-ies) bike has 51mm* brake drop, mudguard eyes too. there's good clearance between 25mm tyres and mudguards, but not if the tyres are mounted on wider rims making them 27-28mm. dual pivot brakes provide more tyre/mudguard clearance as well, instead of single pivot like "exage motion" ones shown in the photos above.


*on the front; on the rear it's variable due to semi-horizontal dropouts

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Old close clearance frame with M/G eyes....Hmmmm
« Reply #7 on: 08 December, 2020, 05:37:23 am »
Most single pivot brakes have greater mudguard clearance than dual pivots but there are a few exceptions.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Old close clearance frame with M/G eyes....Hmmmm
« Reply #8 on: 08 December, 2020, 07:21:07 am »
Looking at that photo the point which I think might give problems would be the clearance between the wheel and the seat tube.
The solution is to cut the mudguard short and attach it directly to the seat tube at about the level of the bottle cage.  I have a Daniel Salmon that is designed that way and has a fixing point just for that.

Re: Old close clearance frame with M/G eyes....Hmmmm
« Reply #9 on: 08 December, 2020, 11:18:45 am »
Most single pivot brakes have greater mudguard clearance than dual pivots but there are a few exceptions.

+1. Not many exceptions either, not vs 57mm drop shimano SP calipers. 57mm SP shimano calipers have pretty generous clearance IME.

cheers

Re: Old close clearance frame with M/G eyes....Hmmmm
« Reply #10 on: 20 December, 2020, 05:55:45 pm »
650b?
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