Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?

[TheRedEyeJedi]

Having undone most of the good work of last year, I'm back on the straight n narrow.

Day 10. Got the carbs out of my system by now but still feeling not up to snuff. I blame that more on lack of riding than ketoflu.

Did about 80km yesterday riding hardish but feeling fairly flat today with ~60km mostly at carbobonk speeds.

I get the impression you need to keep consistently active to keep the ketone generator running. Call that, 'positive reinforcement'...

Time will tell

Manotea wrote me a long PM last year before I started my Keto and it was really encouraging and helpful.

I did Keto last year until March when I went on holiday with my Mum and it worried her what I was eating. To calm her fears I ate more normal food... and fell out of the habit.

Klaus my partner and I started proper Keto on 1 January. We are doing it together which makes it much easier - we plan to do it absolutely properly until the end of June (i.e. give it 6 months) and see how we feel afterwards. He only needs to lose 8kg and has already lost 2, I need to lose 30! (but have lost 6).

We're eating some really nice meals and enjoying breakfasting together. I am also doing the 18:6 fasting on Tuesdays and Thursdays and I find that really easy so far as well. Klaus needs food at 10:30 after breakfast at 6:00, so he has a packed lunch from me of nuts, cheese, olives, mini salami and other goodies that he snacks on during the day.

What has been interesting has been to see the different ways our bodies react. I am mostly not hungry, he is still hungry. I went into Ketosis quickly (according to the Ketostix), he took longer. He is apparently completely out of Ketosis (according to Ketostix) and mine is reducing, but as we are eating the same I think this is that we have already stopped secreting ketones in pee. Which is annoying, as we wanted to use the Ketostix to try to find our optimum carbs.

I am eating about 30g net carbs per day, Klaus 40-50.

I forgot how wonderful it is to not always be hungry, but am struggling again with the very poor choice of desserts (Mascarpone mousse or greek yoghurt for us). I have tried two Keto dessert recipes over the past 2 evenings and they were both no good. It's a bit disappointing!

I have two puddings which I find pretty satisfying.

Keto dark chocolate mug cake (google it) .... essentially its butter, small amount of dark chocolate and cocoa, tiny amount of granulated sweetener, baking powder, ground almonds and an egg .... whack it in the MW for 1 minute and you get a gooey chocolate sponge pudding - cover with double cream

Frozen cheesecake clouds..... mix a whole tub of full fat cream cheese with a good amount of double cream, add a bit of sweetener and whip it up until it stiffens a bit.   I then like to add some chopped up chunks of 85% dark choc or some frozen blueberries.   Divide it out into 12 x silicon molds and freeze it.   You end up with very satisfying frozen cheesecake type things.   

[ElyDave]

I would do both of those without the sweetener personally.

I like the sound of the cheesecake, essentially as per normal just minus the biscuit crumb base

[TheRedEyeJedi]

I would do both of those without the sweetener personally.

I like the sound of the cheesecake, essentially as per normal just minus the biscuit crumb base

I can enjoy both without the sweetener.... but I also use them as better options for my kids for dessert.   A bit of truvia tricks them into thinking they are getting something really naughty.

[Adam]

Klaus my partner and I started proper Keto on 1 January.

Wot? No more cake photos???!!

But glad it's starting to work for you both.

[Auntie Helen]

January's blog will just have 2 cake photos, items that my chums had.

I'm not missing the cakes tooooo much but we may go on a cycle tour for 3 days next weekend and that will make the morning break not so exciting. Or I'm wondering about having a cake anyway on a 100km ride. Will it instantly kick me out of ketosis for several days, or if I'm burning the calories and more can I get away with it?

[ElyDave]

slightly different perspective here, but I don't worry about ingesting moderate carbs during exercise as they do not generally contribute too much to blood sugar rise as they are metabolised very quickly and will contribute part of the energy balance without excluding fat burning as well - my understanding is that both will go on in parallel, but we can shift the balance one way or another.

[TheRedEyeJedi]

slightly different perspective here, but I don't worry about ingesting moderate carbs during exercise as they do not generally contribute too much to blood sugar rise as they are metabolised very quickly and will contribute part of the energy balance without excluding fat burning as well - my understanding is that both will go on in parallel, but we can shift the balance one way or another.

My approach also is to eat carbs tactically when I think I need some quick access to extra fuel.   This really tends to be before and after fast runs.

Otherwise I try to go carb free for exercise, but that is mainly as I am trying really hard to lose fat and weight.   If I was at race weight (which will never happen) then I think tactical, drip feeding of carbs during hard exercise is absolutely the way to go.   Train low but race high theory.

[ElyDave]

slightly different perspective here, but I don't worry about ingesting moderate carbs during exercise as they do not generally contribute too much to blood sugar rise as they are metabolised very quickly and will contribute part of the energy balance without excluding fat burning as well - my understanding is that both will go on in parallel, but we can shift the balance one way or another.

My approach also is to eat carbs tactically when I think I need some quick access to extra fuel.   This really tends to be before and after fast runs.

Otherwise I try to go carb free for exercise, but that is mainly as I am trying really hard to lose fat and weight.   If I was at race weight (which will never happen) then I think tactical, drip feeding of carbs during hard exercise is absolutely the way to go.   Train low but race high theory.

I should have pointed out, I'm also type 1 diabetic, so I am testing blood glucose regularly and eating to maintain stable levels to match my reduced insulin profile. 

[Adam]

You should get away with one cake, provided you ensure you're very strict with other foods.

But you don't actually NEED the cake anyway.  Be strong!

[sojournermike]

slightly different perspective here, but I don't worry about ingesting moderate carbs during exercise as they do not generally contribute too much to blood sugar rise as they are metabolised very quickly and will contribute part of the energy balance without excluding fat burning as well - my understanding is that both will go on in parallel, but we can shift the balance one way or another.

My approach also is to eat carbs tactically when I think I need some quick access to extra fuel.   This really tends to be before and after fast runs.

Otherwise I try to go carb free for exercise, but that is mainly as I am trying really hard to lose fat and weight.   If I was at race weight (which will never happen) then I think tactical, drip feeding of carbs during hard exercise is absolutely the way to go.   Train low but race high theory.

Exactly. You can’t maximize performance with relying on carb for fuel, whether stored glycogen or extrinsic. To train hard enough regularly enough to maximize speed probably requires dietary carb intake, although when I’m in active mode (I.e. not recovering from a detached retina operation) I tend to aim carb intake after training session.

Long endurance appears to be a bit different and there is a continuum of course as transition from burning all fat to all carb is not a switch.

[ElyDave]

Hard sessions should really not need carbs due to the adrenaline causing the liver to dump glycogen, similarly short sessions should not need carbs as this will prevent, or at least limit fat burning significantly

[simonp]

Hard sessions should really not need carbs due to the adrenaline causing the liver to dump glycogen, similarly short sessions should not need carbs as this will prevent, or at least limit fat burning significantly

In my last (2016?) ramp test there was a relatively short warm-up (10-15 minutes) then a ram of 25w every minute until failure, and I was burning mainly fat at moderate work rates already. I'd eaten a carb heavy (muesli, semi skimmed milk, fruit, yoghurt) breakfast about 3h before the test. Coffee was avoided under instructions from the lab.

I can only guess that fat burning would have increased with further time at moderate intensity. However apparently going above threshold turns off fat burning not just in the moment but for some time (it was suggested up to half an hour).

My experience of trying to do hard training is that I can't do it well without having eaten something a few hours beforehand. Trying make it happen by drinking carbs during the workout wasn't effective - I suspect that by the time something gets into your blood, even simple sugars, it's too late.

For moderate intensity workouts under 90 minutes I avoid food, and try to do these in a fasted state if possible. A black coffee is supposed to boost fat burning. Not sure it does, but I like coffee.

[hellymedic]

AIUI High dose caffeine is ergogenic and mobilises fat. I believe very high doses are banned under doping regulations.
Simon's lab presumably had reasons for advising against caffeine.

[simonp]

AIUI High dose caffeine is ergogenic and mobilises fat. I believe very high doses are banned under doping regulations.
Simon's lab presumably had reasons for advising against caffeine.

High dose caffeine used to be banned. It currently is not. It’s use could skew the test results.

[hellymedic]

So I presume caffeine does have some effect...

[sojournermike]

Hard sessions should really not need carbs due to the adrenaline causing the liver to dump glycogen, similarly short sessions should not need carbs as this will prevent, or at least limit fat burning significantly

Sorry, didn’t make myself clear. Agree that you don’t need to feed carbs before a hard session, assuming it’s not a really long one of course, but you do fuel with carb (glycogen) at high intensity. For an athlete doing this type of session several days a week, say an 800m or 5,000m runner (and possibly sprinters too, not my area) you almost certainly need to consume some carb after the session to replenish stocks. Protein is a very expensive source of the amount of carb you might need, and it may also take a bit too long to replenish.

I suspect we’re agreed in fact, just I wasn’t clear.

Mike

[Manotea]

I was out yesterday most of the day, nominally 4C but a headwind made it feel colder and I got rather chilled. Partly my fault for just wearing a gilet over 2 layers of long sleeved merino. I felt a bit better after switching to a full jacket. Under similar conditions in the past I'd be constantly hungry and eating carbs which is fine as I find the process of digestion helps keep me warm, and the energy boost helps me keep working which again keeps me warm. As was whilst I was feeling cold I had no appetite and I just plodded on.

On the other hand I feel distinctly lighter today... 

[ElyDave]

Hard sessions should really not need carbs due to the adrenaline causing the liver to dump glycogen, similarly short sessions should not need carbs as this will prevent, or at least limit fat burning significantly

Sorry, didn’t make myself clear. Agree that you don’t need to feed carbs before a hard session, assuming it’s not a really long one of course, but you do fuel with carb (glycogen) at high intensity. For an athlete doing this type of session several days a week, say an 800m or 5,000m runner (and possibly sprinters too, not my area) you almost certainly need to consume some carb after the session to replenish stocks. Protein is a very expensive source of the amount of carb you might need, and it may also take a bit too long to replenish.

I suspect we’re agreed in fact, just I wasn’t clear.

Mike

Agreed, I'm talking from a viewpoint of an endurance athlete and suspect you are as well.   Sprinting and shorter stuff is not my game and I can't really comment. 

I can report as an experiment of one that when I was 10mile TT-ing as a club cyclist my blood glucose could rise substantially, from the anaerobic exertion and adrenaline.  I had to be very careful of any correction doses of insulin as the adrenaline wore off and the liver dump of glycogen was re-absorbed.

[LEE]

Anecdotal...

I feel much stronger on my (early morning) Wattbike sessions, including FTP tests, if I eat sensibly the night before and then do the session fasted (with just a double espresso an hour before).

A typical session is an hour and burns (according to the Wattbike) around 900kcals.  That's ideal for a fasted effort, glycogen should be easily accessible.   
Any carbs within an hour of the session have a negative effect  on me, though I may have a banana if I wake up early enough to eat it > 1 hour before we start a tough session.

[Manotea]

Anecdotal... 230km on Saturday.
Had an omelette before setting off at 6:30), then a piece of quiche around 3pm plus some olives and almonds.  When I got home a burger with some cauli-rice. Had a dip in energy during the morning feeling the cold but warmed up after a coffee stop and finished the day 'feeling strong'. Awesome.

[Chinaski]

Low fat/Ketogenic it doesn't seem to matter...

Keeping food quality high does seem to matter

http://www.stephanguyenet.com/the-second-nusi-funded-diet-trial-has-arrived/

[Von Broad]

OK, I'm a little bit reluctant to post this link, since I'm not a person here to advocate a Keto diet, and I'm not here to argue the merits of such a diet or the madness of it, but I've come across this chap 'on the internet' during the last two weeks during the first stages of addressing borderline hypertension that I've had for years.

Short story: angle grinder meets knee, [oh dear] meets hospital, meets a quick general, meets stitches, meets a chat with the theatre technician, meets a promise by me to him that I will now address my blood pressure. And it's about time. So....new blood pressure monitor, the beginning of an education project about what goes on in this body of ours, an appointment with the Doc in a few days time. Blood pressure might be something specific but the body's a pretty complex organism and such a thing can be affected by a multitude of different things - age, genetics, diet, stress etc
I've given myself 3 months of non-medical intervention [off the regular booze, start a moderate exercise program - [back to Audax maybe], diet and some supplements etc] before I go down the meds route. I'm taking the three month period very seriously. Ok, so that's my issue and the subject of a different thread....

But....during my travels on you tube I came across this guy - Dr Eric Berg, and I think he's a brilliant communicator. I'm not somebody that can assimilate a book or read a web-site and have it all sink into the mind, I need to look somebody in the eye [on You Tube!] and have it explained to me in simple language - and I think this guy does a real good job of that. He's a big keto man, but my interest was initially primarily about what he had to say about potassium,omega 3's and minerals in general as regards blood pressure, and as I watched more of his stuff I got a broader picture of what he's about in general as a person.

This is his latest webinar. He's got hundreds of short You Tube videos out there, often repeating himself, but one of his pet subjects is insulin. To my mind, he's got a healthy, balanced approach to all this stuff. There's probably little to learn for the die hard keto fans in this thread but for somebody like me who is looking for a bit more understanding of the body's processes, I found him really interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HxP2VXjtpQ

[There was one mistake he made which he acknowledged in the comments section at minute 36 - he was referring to ounces and not grams. And there is a small sales pitch at the end, but it is right at the end of an hour long webinar].

[Chris S]

Hey there, Von Broad!

I'm a Ted Naiman fan bois, and I cannot lie.


Diet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzcOz38FjaU&t=26s

Exercise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlYXb1xs86U

[Blodwyn Pig]

How does the panel on HFLC deal with the need for fibre and roughage?

[Manotea]

Green vegetables with hot meals, mixed salads with home made coleslaw, etc.

Veggie based meals* like cauliflower cheese, brocolli and cheese soup, etc.
*may contain traces of bacon!

Last night's evening snack was celery and blue cheese.

Amesbury Amble 300, Sat Apr 14:
Breakfast: Eggnbacon, Lasham: almond flour pancake with peanut butter, Amesbury: mushroom omelette with small side salad, Whitchurch: almond flour pancake, Bracknell: Almonds (all plus coffee!)